Vintage Road Race Digest #11-20
VintRR-digest Thursday, April 10 1997 Volume 01 : Number 011
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:15:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Elin Phinizy
Subject: Re: VintRR-digest V1 #10
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
>Sandra Cox
>Subject: VintRR Benelli
>
Hi Nick (and Sandra)
>I have a 73 (?) Benelli Phantom, or at least what's left of one. It's a victom
>of vintage racing.
We to are victoms. If you get it fixed up you might victomizr yourself,
it's alot of fun.
1)./Cosmopolitam Motors @ 1-800-523-2522 (outside of Pa.) and
1-215-672-9100 in Pa. (Your id/address seems to beg the fact that you are
in Pa. at Indiana University of P.?). Ask for "Parts". They used to import
Benelli and still do 'Beta's".
Cosmo has various things. While they might niot have the actual forks, you
might be able to employ the 35 mm Marzocchi's which take a 15mm axle
(#MA01.100) or the 32mm Marzocchis which take a 17mm axle. ( It is probably
a safe assumption that your axle is 15mm. This set measures @ 8" travel,
34" legs, and 6.5 inches center to center and have magnesium sliders (very
stylish). They also have a selection of Benelli bearings and cups.
......or......
2). Domi-Racer/Accessory Mart. @ 1-513-871-1678, (fx) 1-513-871-6684. They
have several applications that may work.
a). #97-03279, Wards Benelli 250 forks for singles up to 1968
b). 30mm Cerianis # 97-03426 or 32 mm race Cerianis # 97-03426 (HOW
TRICK!)
c). They do have some Guzzi stuff; however, it appears to be for
'60's 125's and later v40's and v50's+
All the above are complete assemblies with triple clamps &c. Both places
are pretty friendly and have a bunch of stuff. If you obtain the dimensions
you may be able to fit one of the above easily to the "Phantom". Be sure to
measure your steering head with bearing cups in to get the proper
dimension. I retrofitted the Wards/Benelli forks to my 125 Gilera. They
take a decent pounding and seem to do well. I would guess that you will use
about 4-5 ozs fluid each tube.
So, good luck and set it up for racing. An interesting bike is a terrible
thing not to race....
Jay
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:04:16 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. BENSON"
Subject: Re: VintRR CB 350 gaskets
On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Michael Moore wrote:
> > I might have posted this before, but I need to find a place to get a
> > gasket kit for my CB350 twin. I also need some stock rings for the
> > bike. The local honda dealer kind of looks at me funny when I ask to buy
> > parts.
> >
> > Cameron
>
> Hello Cameron,
>
> You need a different Honda dealer, or just get them to let you pick
> the part of the microfiche that you want. They can supply all the
> parts you need from American Honda.
Yep. I can get anything I need for an early CL350 (not much different
from a CB), and from my favorite dealer. He even quoted me a price of a
new tank, finished by Honda in the original color, for something like
$200. (The first was "Kreemed" by an earlier owner.) I declined, but
parts should not be hard to get.
Phil Benson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 16:27:12 -0500 (EST)
From: ben.english@DMVMS.mailnet.state.ny.us
Subject: VintRR Old man reminisces, Honda CB400F
First, an introduction, for those who don't already know me from the Brit-Iron
and Norton Owner's Club lists: I am Ben English, residing in upstate New York,
USA. Being now 53 and too well burdened with life's various forms of baggage, I
don't do any racing, although I do hustle down the public highways a heck of a
lot faster than I really should, often on the way to watch someone else race.
I do that hustling on a 1972 Norton Commando I have had since 1980.
Long ago, I did occasionally "put a wheel in anger", as the Brits say, at the
old Woody Creek Raceways near Aspen Colorado in the early 1970s, mostly with a
Suzuki X-6 gradually converted to full race spec (including gorgeous Mitchenall
Brothers fiberglass tank and seat from a Cotton Telstar), and once with a
Suzuki T500 in production trim. Generally I DNF'ed, although I did win $10 for
2nd place in 250 GP once... out of a field of two.
By the late 70s I was working the parts counter at Honda-Kawasaki of Boulder,
Colorado, whose various employees and hangers-on fielded quite a few regional
racing efforts (as well as being base for Ricky Orlando's 250 GP and later
Superbike national campaigns- he is still at it). It was a great scene, with
some very interesting people and bikes.
Which brings me to Ellis' mention of Yoshimura race parts in response to
Darrell Hingley's request for aid in building a racing CB400F: Although Yosh
undoubtedly got his hands on them, it was Kaz Yoshima who was the real
California hot rod specialist in the 400F. Our service manager at Honda of
Boulder, Charley MacDonald, built and raced an absolute jewel of a CB400F, and
another fellow in Colorado (a dentist by trade) built and raced one that was
more radical, and although not quite as glossy as Charley's, could nevertheless
have won a Concours d'Elegance as well as it won races. Both of these guys
spent many dollars on Yoshima parts.
Now that I am rambling, I will describe the racing. Woody Creek was an very
tight track- about 1.1 miles, three hairpins and only one straight worthy of
the name. It was the venue for most of the races, and the few
other tracks were also relatively tight and twisty. Converted dirt bikes have
always been very popular and successful in Colorado road racing.
In the late 70s, the premier class allowed production based but modified 350
two strokes and 550 four strokes. In 1974 and 5, the RD350s would sprint to an
early lead, but then as they would heat up, the cooler running four strokes
(Honda CB500 and 550Fs, Yamaha TT and SR500s) would catch up for closely fought
finishes. By 1977, the hot rod CB400Fs (punched out to 480cc or some such) were
winning, aided by their lighter weight compared to the bigger fours, and better
power than the 500 singles.
Then the two-smokers started bringing RD350-LCs (liquid cooled) in from Canada
and the UK (they were not sold in the USA til later), and then it was the four
strokes that couldn't keep up the pace as they got hot.
Ben English
1972 Norton Commando Combat Roadster #201695 / 1972 Olmo 10 speed
Amtrak National Timetable / Pocket full of bus tokens / Good shoes
USNOA 1395 / NOC 04X06.2530.0 / MGNOC / Scowling Street Terrors 2
Skinny Tire Motorcycle Club 3 / Lower East Side Egyptian Cobras 4
Hells' Vegetarians 5
ben.english@dmvms.mailnet.state.ny.us Albany, New York, USA
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:20:46 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Benelli
> > Thanks for the plug though.
>
> Again I learned something, I thought perhaps you also would stock other
> ignition systems.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ivar.
Hello Ivar,
Since I do Euro Spares as a part time business I've tried to limit
the products to a level for which I can provide good support. Then
I stumbled into John Bradley's book, which takes even more time away
from the garage. The price of being an international entrepreneur, I
guess.
I have had a few parts developed for the Laverda - a new cam, new
valve springs with titanium retainers, a batch of 7mm bronze valve
guides that take Kawasaki Z1 stem seals, and a small batch of RITA
kits for the 750 that I made up a few years ago.
And now I do even more stuff on the computer - it keeps my hands much
cleaner and free of blood stains than working in the garage does.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:59:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Elin Phinizy
Subject: VintRR Re: USCRA Website
USCRA (United States Classic Racing Assoc.) has a website which can be
reached at "http://kyalami.chess.cornell.edu/uscra.html". It has been set
up by USCRA's Karl Smolenski who has done an exceedingly good job. There is
a delightful bit on 50 cc. racing in Japan. I accessed it through MacWeb
and Netscape both; however, the latter is preferable. Please stop bye and
visit.
Jay
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:19:06 -0700
From: DONALD MACPHAIL
Subject: VintRR brak-reline
I am a Canadian - affiliated with the V.R.R.A. There is a "fiercely "
active lot of vintage racers up here emerging from winter.
The question which needs answering today - for me is- relining - re -
arcing; with high friction materials- green or equivalent? in Canada?-
the North east - ? who- How do I reach them ? @ how much? HOW FAST?
don macphail
R.A.C.E #27 CB350 GS1000
to Mr. Moore thankyou for starting this list.
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #11
***************************
VintRR-digest Friday, April 11 1997 Volume 01 : Number 012
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:12:59 -0700
From: Tim Morrow
Subject: VintRR Intro.message
Hi,
I guess it's about time for me to introduce myself.
My name is Tim Morrow, and I'm currently only a Vintage RR
spectator; but mulling over the possibility of getting
back into racing, this time in vintage. I raced WERA
and AMA/CCS in the late 80's (RZ350), ending with
parts expenses and injuries not suitable to a middle
aged father of three.
My brother is trying to convince me that his '71
CB175 street cafe racer would be a good starting
point for a 200cc class roadracer. (Actually, I think
he has his beady little eyes on a Velorex sidecar
in my garage that has yet to find a suitable beast
of burden to pull it, and is seeking a trade!)
So, his CB has some sort of Powroll big bore
kit in it; he installed it years ago and can't even
remember the displacement, cr, or cam specs. Is
this something that might be cobbled into a reasonable
racebike, or should I be looking elsewhere?
Tim
- --
Tim Morrow
Herndon, Va.
Morrows@worldnet.att.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:33:35 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR brak-reline
> The question which needs answering today - for me is- relining - re -
> arcing; with high friction materials- green or equivalent? in Canada?-
> the North east - ? who- How do I reach them ? @ how much? HOW FAST?
> don macphail
> R.A.C.E #27 CB350 GS1000
Hello Donald,
The two brake relining services I know of are Vintage Brake in
California (209-533-4346) and Heinz Kegler, who is on this list:
YTNH94A@prodigy.com (HEINZ KEGLER)
In this day of rapid shipment I don't think you need to be overly
concerned about the location.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:38:02 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Intro.message
> My brother is trying to convince me that his '71
> CB175 street cafe racer would be a good starting
> point for a 200cc class roadracer. (Actually, I think
> So, his CB has some sort of Powroll big bore
> kit in it; he installed it years ago and can't even
> remember the displacement, cr, or cam specs. Is
> this something that might be cobbled into a reasonable
> racebike, or should I be looking elsewhere?
>
> Tim
Hello Tim,
Yes, the CB175 will make an excellent 200GP bike - and you can still
get parts for it from the dealer! I encourage you to seriously
consider the bike.
Take a look at the photos and written stuff on my web site about my
CR216 Honda special.
I'll make a small plug here - I wrote up what I learned in developing
the CR216 and sell this for $20 including postage. It is about 18-20
pages and covers chassis and engine stuff. $20 is a lot less than I
spent building and learning the info, and I've gotten no complaints
on the 10 or so copies I've sold over the years.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:38:23 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: VintRR brak-reline
On 10 Apr 97 at 20:19, DONALD MACPHAIL wrote:
> I am a Canadian - affiliated with the V.R.R.A. There is a "fiercely "
> active lot of vintage racers up here emerging from winter.
> The question which needs answering today - for me is- relining - re -
> arcing; with high friction materials- green or equivalent? in Canada?-
> the North east - ? who- How do I reach them ? @ how much? HOW FAST?
Hi Don,
I know of one outfit in Hamilton which will reline and turn brake linings.
However, the info is on my hard drive at work. Hold on, and I'll forward
it.
> to Mr. Moore thankyou for starting this list.
Ditto, I'm sure!
Cheers,
Glenn
msgr@hookup.net
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:17:15, -0500
From: YTNH94A@prodigy.com (MRS KAREN C KEGLER)
Subject: VintRR brak-reline
Hi Donald,
In response to your question: I do precision drum brake jobs, using
the finest Ferodo linings. Green linings are no longer available.
Let me know what kind of brake you have....maybe I can help. I live
in Albuquerque, New Mexico USA. A long way from you!
My charges are usually $200 to $250, plus shipping, depending on the
route we decide to go on the brakes.
Turn around time is 2 weeks after receiving the brake.
Phone: 505-892-8447
FAX: 505-892-7924
E-Mail: ytnh94a@prodigy.com
Hope to hear from you.
Heinz Kegler
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:42:23, -0500
From: YTNH94A@prodigy.com (MRS KAREN C KEGLER)
Subject: VintRR INFO
Vintage Racers,
Has anybody out there experimented with carbon fiber push rods for a
Norton Twin. If so, I'd appreciate a response either on private
address or on Vin.RR.
Thank you,
Heinz
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:06:34 +0100
From: Skip Schloss
Subject: Re: VintRR INFO
re:<>
Please make the response to this question a public post, not private
email to Heinz. A lot of us are interested in this issue. Reports from
Norton research prior to the closure indicate substantial HP gains, but
we need to hear from folks who had been there and done that relative to
the carbon fiber stuff.
Skip Schloss
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:10:56 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Re: CF Pushrods
> re:< a Norton Twin.>>
>
> Please make the response to this question a public post, not private
> email to Heinz. A lot of us are interested in this issue. Reports from
> Norton research prior to the closure indicate substantial HP gains, but
> we need to hear from folks who had been there and done that relative to
> the carbon fiber stuff.
>
> Skip Schloss
You may need to contact some of the race car guys who do these CF
pushrods. If they can work in giant Chevys with .8" lift they should
be strong enough for a Norton.
Still, a good hollow steel pushrod can be quite nice. Smith Bros. in
Oregon will custom make pushrods for anything, and they do a lot of
race car stuff. And a steel pushrod may have a much better useable
life:$ ratio than the CF stuff.
I believe that I read that the Norton factory twins picked up several
bhp by stiffening the cam/pushrods. I think they were using aluminum
pushrods, but they flexed too much to faithfully transmit the cam
lobe timing to the valves.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:57:08 -1000
From: bsagsdgw@maui.net (Webster Family)
Subject: [none]
FOR SALE; Rickman frame only, no swing arm, no forks, Just frame. Suitable
for Honda CB750 single cam. Possibly other large Jap four stroke lump.
Fair shape only. $500.+shipping.
Dave
P.S. located on Maui, Hi.
David Webster
Maui, Hawaii
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:00:00 AST
From: "Darrell Hingley"
Subject: VintRR response
I just wanted to take a second to say Thanks for all the great
information I got from the club. If this is the way it stays it will
become the best vintage site in the country. Now since I am all
worked up and wanting to build the Honda 400f again, does anyone have some
race parts for the 400f or 350f. I have a number of Honda NOS parts I
would be interested in swapping. Long live the screaming fours,
Darrell#62 AMCRA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:09:26 AST
From: "Darrell Hingley"
Subject: VintRR old,new tires
I just picked up my new? race tires for the year, the front is an
Avon AM22 and the rear is an Avon AM23. The front is date stamped 056
5th week of 96, the rear is stamped 124 12th week of 94. I called the
1-800 number Avon has and was informed that as long as tires ( even
race tires) are keep dry, cool and out of the sun it will not matter
if they are 2, 3 or then 4 years old. Is this a true statement or did
I just get old stock and was snowballed ( can happen up here) by the
guy at Avon. Thanks, and to the guy that replied back to me at 5 am
his time I will see if I can have the club's name changed, I told a
fellow racer the deal and he thought it sounded better. Darrell #62
AMCRA (for now)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:36:03 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR old,new tires
> I just picked up my new? race tires for the year, the front is an
> Avon AM22 and the rear is an Avon AM23. The front is date stamped 056
> 5th week of 96, the rear is stamped 124 12th week of 94. I called the
> 1-800 number Avon has and was informed that as long as tires ( even
> race tires) are keep dry, cool and out of the sun it will not matter
> if they are 2, 3 or then 4 years old. Is this a true statement or did
> I just get old stock and was snowballed ( can happen up here) by the
> guy at Avon. Thanks, and to the guy that replied back to me at 5 am
> his time I will see if I can have the club's name changed, I told a
> fellow racer the deal and he thought it sounded better. Darrell #62
> AMCRA (for now)
Hello Darrell,
Your tire should probably be OK if it was stored properly. Does it
still seem fresh and sticky like the newer tire? If so, I wouldn't
worry too much about it.
Glad you liked the club name suggestion - differentiation in the
marketplace is getting harder and harder to do.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 20:00:39 AST
From: "Darrell Hingley"
Subject: VintRR old tires
Michael, yes the rear tire is nearly as soft as the front, the first
thing that I noticed was that the rear looked a little blacker then
the front and slicker, like it was sitting around and the surface was
starting to firm up. In any case my butt thanks you for the reasurance
Darrell #62
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:35:56, -0500
From: YTNH94A@prodigy.com (MRS KAREN C KEGLER)
Subject: VintRR C F PUSHRODS
Hi Michael,
Thanks for the info. Do you know the postal mailing address or E-
Mail of Smith Brothers in Oregon? I would like to write to them,
about custom made steel push rods.
Thanks,
Heinz
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:23:16 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR C F PUSHRODS
> Hi Michael,
>
> Thanks for the info. Do you know the postal mailing address or E-
> Mail of Smith Brothers in Oregon? I would like to write to them,
> about custom made steel push rods.
>
> Thanks,
> Heinz
Hello Heinz,
Smith Brothers Pushrods
1320 S.E. Armour Road #A-1
Bend, OR 97702
541 388 8188 voice
541 389 8840 fax
"Adjustable and special length pushrods for all makes of engines"
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #12
***************************
VintRR-digest Saturday, April 12 1997 Volume 01 : Number 013
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:38:22 -0400
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR Honda RC for sale
Okay you say you want THE bike that nobody else has, want a real
conversation starter, and you're tired of loosing at the vintage races,
welllll. Give Altantic Motor Cycles in Berkshire, UK a call at 0118
9342266, they can fix you up with a Honda RC 161, 250cc four
cylinder GP machine. Ellis :-D
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:59:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: YamiRacer@aol.com
Subject: Re: VintRR INFO
There was a guy in the USCRA who tried them at Daytona one year. They broke
almost immediately (as I heard the story) and ruined his trip. Apparently,
the entire lot of them were defective.
This was 2 or 3 years ago. I would advise checking for more current info.
Regards,
Chris Stein
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 20:22:20 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR INFO - a tip from the list administrator
> There was a guy in the USCRA who tried them at Daytona one year. They broke
> almost immediately (as I heard the story) and ruined his trip. Apparently,
> the entire lot of them were defective.
>
> This was 2 or 3 years ago. I would advise checking for more current info.
> Chris Stein
Hello folks,
Try to be a bit more descriptive in the subject lines of your posts.
I got the above post, and even though I had replied to the original
post earlier, it took me a few seconds to figure out what the post
was referring to (presumably the CF push rod post originally made by
Heinz).
If you address just a small portion of a message, or are moving away
from the topic in the original subject line please feel free to make
the subject line of your post more descriptive.
For example, "Introduction" is fine if that is what your post is
about, but if I want to reply and mainly talk about your ex-works
250cc V-twin Lambretta road racer (which was in fact made and is a
really attractive little bike (not a scooter)) I'd probably change
the subject line to "Joe/Jane's 250 Lambretta". If later on in the
thread you branch off into a discussion of scooter racing in early
1960s England (which they did) then change the subject to "English
scooter racing", etc etc.
This will be more important as we get more people on the list, and
more messages being posted.
Everyone seems to be doing well on pruning out the earlier message
text - I haven't seen a bounced message for that in several days.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 06:06:19 -0400
From: "Troyce"
Subject: VintRR Re: Honda RC for sale
And for about .5 mil pounds, I would guess?
Troyce
******
- ----------
> From: Ellis_Holman
> To: VJMC_Mailing_List_Replyto ; Vintage Roadrace list
> Subject: Honda RC for sale
> Date: Friday, April 11, 1997 9:38 PM
>
> Okay you say you want THE bike that nobody else has, want a real
> conversation starter, and you're tired of loosing at the vintage races,
> welllll. Give Altantic Motor Cycles in Berkshire, UK a call at 0118
> 9342266, they can fix you up with a Honda RC 161, 250cc four
> cylinder GP machine. Ellis :-D
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:05:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: VintRR brak-reline
>
>I am a Canadian - affiliated with the V.R.R.A. There is a "fiercely "
>active lot of vintage racers up here emerging from winter.
> The question which needs answering today - for me is- relining - re -
>arcing; with high friction materials- green or equivalent? in Canada?-
>the North east - ? who- How do I reach them ? @ how much? HOW FAST?
> don macphail
> R.A.C.E #27 CB350 GS1000
>
> to Mr. Moore thankyou for starting this list.
>
>
I'm in the Eastern Section of the VRRA here in Ottawa. Many of us use a
woven lining for mechanical brakes. Ottawa Clutch does the relining. It
works really well. Nobody got by me on the brakes all last season so I
guess that's proof enough for me.
I'm told that Ferodo Green doesn't work properly until it heats up and
that a relatively smaller, slower bike like my vintage racer (CB450)
might not get these linings hot enough. Any comments from those who know?
- --
Peter Alan Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or mariner@istar.ca
Vintage Road Racing - you're only young once but with enough determination
you can stay immature forever.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:08:29, -0500
From: YTNH94A@prodigy.com (MRS KAREN C KEGLER)
Subject: Re: VintRR brak-reline
Peter,
Yes, Ferodo Green work best when hot. Cold and damp, in fact, they
are very grabby. You can heat up your brakes properly by dragging
them during the warm up lap. Experience will tell you how hot the
drums will have to be to perform properly.
Take Care,
Heinz
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:07:22 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR "Real" racers vs. conversions, stock vs. modified
A recent email I received from Ivar brought this topic up, and I
think it is one that might generate some interesting discussion on
the list.
The topic is production/works racers vs conversions, and then the
related topic of leaving your production racer in stock trim vs
modifying it. Some of this is a bit of a US vs. Europe question too.
I'll excerpt the relevant lines from Ivar in re the messages he has
been seeing on the list:
(They are)
> interesting to me, but the ways described or discussed of
> re-building a road bike to a vintage or classic racer is quite new
> to me. It is of big difference than the classic racing scene I am
> used to here in Europe . . .
What, vintage racing isn't the same the world 'round?!
I replied:
Remember that here in the US things like Manx Nortons and G50
Matchless were pretty rare beasts. If you wanted to go racing you
had to convert a bike, unless you were wealthy enough to import
something from England. The AMA rules requiring production-based
race bikes didn't help - you couldn't race a Manx in an AMA race
after Francis Beart came over with the factory Nortons and trounced
everyone. Other than a few showings, works racers were pretty much
never seen over here. What people road raced here in the 60s was
converted Honda CB72/77/450, Ducati and Parilla singles, YDS Yamahas,
Triumph/BSA/Norton twins, Gold Star BSAs, Suzuki X6, etc. Not much
pukka racing tackle was around.
I'll have to admit that while I can admire a nicely restored bike
from the 50s, my urge is to fix the stupid things on the bikes. I
just can't seem to get into "stock" very much, hence my vintage
racing stable of "might have been built then" racers. I could
probably leave a GP Guzzi or monocoque Norton pretty well alone, as
Carcano and Williams had a much better idea of what needed to be
done than many of their contemporaries.
*************************
What do you folks think? Should vintage racing be just actual
period race bikes (G50/Manx/Aermacchi, etc or accurate replicas) or
is there a place for converted CB350 Hondas?
And if you are lucky enough to have a G50, should you be able to make
a light-weight Seeley replica out of it (Bob Heath has gotten some
complaints about his ultra-light G50 recently) or does it have to be
dead original? Some vintage organizations won't even allow period
aftermarket racing parts to be put on the bikes.
Thanks to Ivar for making an innocent comment that made me think of
a discussion topic to pose to the list.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 20:44:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Paul C. Kurth"
Subject: VintRR Vint RR Kawasaki project
This isn't really a question involving vintage racing, but I figured
someone here might know something this bike.
I came across an old Kawasaki today. I'm not sure on the model or the
year, but it looks like an old Triumph. I mean JUST LIKE an old
Triumph. Does anyone know anything about this bike. Years ago I saw a
picture of one, but I can't remember what it was called. The bike is
very complete looking, but doesn't look like it has run in many years. I
ask because after I look out the trash the other day, I noticed a clear
spot in the garage that just might fit another project bike.
Cameron
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:04:54 -0700
From: Tim Morrow
Subject: Re: VintRR Vint RR Kawasaki project
Paul C. Kurth wrote:
>
> This isn't really a question involving vintage racing, but I figured
> someone here might know something this bike.
>
> I came across an old Kawasaki today. I'm not sure on the model or the
> year, but it looks like an old Triumph. I mean JUST LIKE an old
> Triumph. Does anyone know anything about this bike. Years ago I saw a
> picture of one, but I can't remember what it was called. The bike is
> very complete looking, but doesn't look like it has run in many years. I
> ask because after I look out the trash the other day, I noticed a clear
> spot in the garage that just might fit another project bike.
>
> Cameron
Cameron,
what you saw is a Kawasaki W1 650, from 1965-1968. It is a bike
that dates back to a Japanese company called Meguro, that brought out a
500cc OHV vetical twin that looked remarkably like a BSA in the
mid-50's.
Kawasaki acquired Megure in '64 and expanded the W1 to 624cc. It has a
non-unit tranny and exterior oil lines. I think it would make a great
project bike!
Tim
- --
Tim Morrow
Herndon, Va.
Morrows@worldnet.att.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:08:02 -1000
From: bsagsdgw@maui.net (Webster Family)
Subject: Re: VintRR "Real" racers vs. conversions, stock vs. modified
Dear Mike,
Of coarse there is a blace for converted CB350/450 's. Its called the city
dump. Seriously, I feel if someone wants to race a CB it should be raced
in the class that represents the time frame they existed in in real life,
I.E. in AHRMA F250 and F500 where they will run against the Yamaha, Suzuki
and Kawasaki two strokes. Not as uncompetetive as you may first think as a
Honda won the Deland F500 race this year. Furthermore, the CB's did not
really race against Triumph twins, Norton twins Aermacchi's, etc. By the
time CB's hit the track, most of this stuff was long gone, forced out by
the TD's, T-500's and A1R's. I remember a few brave souls trying to be
competetive on CB's, namely Gordon Jennings who flogged a CB350 to
distruction more or less continually and never finished better than sixth
and Henry DeGouw who ran a CB450 in Fla. and if he ever won a race on it,
it was thru attrition or no one else showed up in his class. Ahrma has
made an unfortunate and arbitrary decision to place these bikes in a class
where the run against machines designed in the thirties (Tri. Nor.BSA) or
in the fifties (Ducati, Aermacchi) all of which are either singles or
pushrod twins.
This is not the time frame in which these bikes were designed and raced.
Yes, I know there was a little overlap, but I never saw a Manx, G-50, Gold
Star or Aermacchi raced until vintage racing started in the middle
Eighties. I started road reacing in '70 and these things had totally
disappeared. The CB's were in evidence but were never competetive. It is
only this arbitrary grouping which allows what were uncompetetive machines
in their day to dominate a class that used to be composed of much older
designs that were much more competetive at a much earlier time.
Aloha
dave
David Webster
Maui, Hawaii
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #13
***************************
VintRR-digest Sunday, April 13 1997 Volume 01 : Number 014
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:10:38 -1000
From: bsagsdgw@maui.net (Webster Family)
Subject: Re: VintRR Vint RR Kawasaki project
Cameron,
Actually, it looks just like an old A-10 BSA, and if it has a single carb
it is a W-1, dual carbs, a W-2.
Aloha
Dave
David Webster
Maui, Hawaii
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 21:50:35 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR "Real" racers vs. conversions, stock vs. modifie
Hello David,
> I.E. in AHRMA F250 and F500 where they will run against the Yamaha, Suzuki
> and Kawasaki two strokes. Not as uncompetetive as you may first think as a
And that is exactly where they run in the US. I know that in
England there was a lot of angst because they have a GP style class
that picks up the CB350 (released in 02/68) and dumps it in with the
Aermacchi singles. It is one of those fine distinctions on where
the age line is drawn. A year or two earlier (I'm not sure just
where CRMC drew the line - 1970?) and the Honda would probably have
been excluded.
> the TD's, T-500's and A1R's. I remember a few brave souls trying to be
> competetive on CB's, namely Gordon Jennings who flogged a CB350 to
> distruction more or less continually and never finished better than sixth
Jennings raced a CB77 (later in a Cotton chassis) with some success,
and a CB450 which I think he was riding when he had the crash that
made him decide to retire from racing. I think you may be referring
to the bike Jess Thomas rode, which was written up in Cycle
magazine, prior to being written off at Ontario or Riverside (I
think). Still, 6th against a TD3 isn't too shabby.
> and Henry DeGouw who ran a CB450 in Fla. and if he ever won a race on it,
The CB450 was released in 08/65, and was raced in the mid to late
60s. I think Team Hansen had some reasonable showings with their
CR450 (equipped with factory race kit) during the period, including
10th and 12 places at Daytona in 1967. Drixl got a 4th at Imola in
1969.
> it was thru attrition or no one else showed up in his class. Ahrma has
> made an unfortunate and arbitrary decision to place these bikes in a class
> where the run against machines designed in the thirties (Tri. Nor.BSA) or
> in the fifties (Ducati, Aermacchi) all of which are either singles or
> pushrod twins.
The CB350 is also eligible for 350 Sportsman, and that class is
designed as more of an entry level class, picking up bikes through
1972. I'd guess that most Ducatis are set up for GP, and the CRTT
Aermacchi isn't eligible for Sportsman as it was a production racer.
> This is not the time frame in which these bikes were designed and raced.
> Yes, I know there was a little overlap, but I never saw a Manx, G-50, Gold
> Star or Aermacchi raced until vintage racing started in the middle
> Eighties. I started road reacing in '70 and these things had totally
> disappeared. The CB's were in evidence but were never competetive. It is
> only this arbitrary grouping which allows what were uncompetetive machines
> in their day to dominate a class that used to be composed of much older
> designs that were much more competetive at a much earlier time.
The AHRMA GP class is supposed to pick up bikes through 12/68. I've
always thought it odd that the B50 gets to run here, as it has a much
stronger bottom end than a B44. Like design can be "stretched" a bit
- - I guess you could say letting the B50 run is for safety purposes,
as it is less likely to blow a hole through the cases than a B44.
The CB350 is specifically excluded from the 500 and 350 Premier
classes.
Unfortunately, you'd have to do some creative gerrymandering of the
rules to make everything dead even as some bikes of the period where
designed in an even earlier time, and weren't competitive with the
Ducati/Aermacchi crowd.
I do note that the Guzzi V8 is legal for 500 Premier - wish we could
see (and hear) one being raced!
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:09:19 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Pushrod Guzzi racers and AHRMA 200GP Plus
Whilst looking through the AHRMA rule book for my reply to David's
post I noticed the pushrod Guzzi 250 with a maximum 30mm carb is
legal for the 200 Grand Prix Plus class (which is run, like the
Formula classes, on an index of performance).
This would be the Airone Sport, which one of my Guzzi books shows was
made up until 1958. This looks like it has the same basic chassis as
the Falcone, which is a much older design than the Guzzi racers of
the mid-50s.
I'm hoping Ivar will take some time to share some knowledge, as I've
occasionally wondered if an Airone engine (probably rarer than hen's
teeth in the US), if put in a Wheeler or Guzzi GP replica chassis
could be made to put out any kind of reasonable horsepower. It
seems like it wouldn't be at any more of a basic disadvantage (4
speed gearbox) than a pushrod Benelli, BSA/Triumph, long-stroke
Aermacchi, R26 BMW (!) etc, when you consider that all of the 250s
are limited to a 30mm carb to offset their displacement advantage in
the class. I wonder just how heavy the Airone engine is in
comparison to an early Aermacchi?
As an example of the class, my 250GP CR216 Honda puts out about 21 bhp at
the rear wheel. It would have to be reduced to 185cc for the 200
class, so figure that it might loose 2-3 horsepower. Still, a Honda
can be built to be quite fast and around 220 pounds or less, which
is a noticeable savings over a narrow case Ducati (whose stock frame
is really heavy).
As an aside there was an article in Classic Bike/Racer about 10
years ago on a 250 BSA that was stomping the Ducati 250s pretty
handily in England.
The 200 class isn't a real prestigious class, so I don't know how
many people (other than me) would go to the trouble of building a
nice race frame for the class. Still, it would be legal, and I'd
love to see some of the specials that could occur if the more obscure
bikes actully came out for the class.
Data, I need more data! Everyone run out and weigh your bikes and
engines so I can do a proper comparison on stuff.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:35:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Goodpaster
Subject: VintRR vintage replicas
>What do you folks think? Should vintage racing be just actual
>period race bikes (G50/Manx/Aermacchi, etc or accurate replicas) or
>is there a place for converted CB350 Hondas?
If limiting classes to period racing machines is the rule, then the
grids would be very thin. Replicas fill the void and should be encouraged.
Period aftermarket parts are a boon to vintage racers since o.e.m. parts
have just about dried up. Having the non-racing specific machines such as
Honda 350,RD3-4, Yamaha 650, BSA,Tri, etc,etc is the backbone of vintage
racing which is of course is the old "club racing'". The aforementioned are
great entry level machines that can be had reasonably and subjected to
inovation can be made to be competitive with a limited budget.
The whole idea of vintage racing is to have fun with great old
machines and the folks who build and ride them.........................
John Goodpaster
AHRMA
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:46:03 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR vintage replicas
> If limiting classes to period racing machines is the rule, then the
> grids would be very thin. Replicas fill the void and should be encouraged.
> Period aftermarket parts are a boon to vintage racers since o.e.m. parts
> have just about dried up. Having the non-racing specific machines such as
> Honda 350,RD3-4, Yamaha 650, BSA,Tri, etc,etc is the backbone of vintage
> racing which is of course is the old "club racing'". The aforementioned are
I think John makes a good point here. "Vintage racing" can mean
different things. Are we trying to recreate factory-level GP racing,
or club/national level racing of the period? If I could buy a
replica factory racer for $5000 I'd be glad to run one or two (maybe
three) of them, but until that time we'll have to soldier on with
converted street bikes, as did many of the club racers in the period.
Watching 3 accurate replicas rushing around the track (especially if
WE are the ones having to sit on the sidelines and watch) wouldn't
add much appeal to vintage racing.
> great entry level machines that can be had reasonably and subjected to
> inovation can be made to be competitive with a limited budget.
> The whole idea of vintage racing is to have fun with great old
> machines and the folks who build and ride them.........................
And don't forget the great old people too! Some of us are getting
more vintage with every passing minute.
The 06/62 Cycle World has a report on the Shreveport AMA National
road race. 8 of the first 10 were H-D mounted with Dick Mann on a
Matchless andDon Burnett on a Triumph. The Novice and Amateur races
were won by BSA and Triumph, respectively.
The 09/62 issue has an AFM report written by Joe Scalzo. He mentions
the lightweight classes are made up mostly of basically stock
Parillas, Ducatis, Hondas, and Bultacos. What I find amazing is that
he reports that "in California there are at least six Matchless
G-50's, and upwards of 200 Manx Nortons". TWO HUNDRED MANX
NORTONS!!!! Surely there must be some mistake here. Maybe that was
meant to be "20" instead of "200". I'd think that 200 would be a
number of years of the entire production of Manxes.
The pictures show Bob Bakker on a BMW and Marty Dickerson on his
Vincent, Wes Cooley on a Parilla followed by Bob Baker's Ducati and
Tom Furniss' Honda, and Don Vesco on a Honda 250/4.
Cheers,
Michael
Still, this would indicate
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:04:21 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: Re: VintRR vintage replicas
John Goodpaster wrote:
> Having the non-racing specific machines such as
> Honda 350,RD3-4, Yamaha 650, BSA,Tri, etc,etc is the backbone of vintage
> racing which is of course is the old "club racing'". The aforementioned are
> great entry level machines that can be had reasonably and subjected to
> inovation can be made to be competitive with a limited budget.
> The whole idea of vintage racing is to have fun with great old
> machines and the folks who build and ride them.........................
>
> John Goodpaster
> AHRMA
Hello John,
May I, to put explosive oil on the fire, ask what club racing has to do
with the period G.P. racing of the fifties and sixties? Is it reasonable
to compare a BSA 500 Gold Star or whatever with a Gilera/MV 500-4, or a
Honda 350 with a Benelli 350 4-cyl. both for the spectators as for the
riders? Isn't it historical incorrect to state that the whole idea of
vintage racing is to have fun with great old machines and the folks who
build and ride them. Isn't this club racing, instead of "vintage, or
classic racing". It's not meant to be an attack, I don't know the U.S.
situation, it's classes etc., but it seems such a big difference between
the org. racing bikes and the roadster derived racing bikes, which were
period as well but in most cases (certainly not all) bore little
resemblance with the period factory racers.
Oops, did not made friends, doesn't matter, just want to stir up the
fire without stating that the above is my opinion to the full extend.
Sincerely,
Ivar de Gier.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:19:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Sandra Cox
Subject: Re: VintRR "Real" racers vs. conversions, stock vs. modified
From my observation of vintage racing two of the big reasons people I know
joinned into it was: 1, Less exspencive to start into then most other forms of
racing. 2, Make useful a motorcycle that otherwise might find it's next home in
the city dump.
First money, CB 350 & 450, RD's, H1 & H2 can all be found in sunday's papers,
yardsales, and other stranger places for less than a grand. Many times only a
few hundred dollars. Honda's RS125R is retailing for 12,900 this year if you
can find one. Even the F3 you need $7799, maybe you can find a good use one for
around 4k. Read the fine print in that loan application, and you'll most likely
find racing a financed vehical is gounds for forcloser on the loan. Yes the
older bikes will need parts that cost money also, but we're talking about
getting started here.
Second, giving life back. A 25 year old bike thats been stored inproperly for
20 years is hard to bring back to the street. Tires $ forkseals, and oil $
rusted tank $ chain $ airfilters (now nest for some creature) $. By the time
you fix every thing to make it legal on the street you've equalled a nice down
payment on something new. I know alot of you are thinking I just contradicted
my last argument, but wouldn't you have changed most of those same items on the
new bike before going to the track. (okay not the tank) Most folks get
discoraged, and trash these bikes out.
As a final note, when my friend John started his vintage race project he chose
a CB350 twin for parts availability. Little did he know how available they
where. With in 3 monthes he had been GIVEN 5 whole bikes by folks who had grown
tired of tripping over them in their garages, and had no intention of ever
doing anything with them. All of these bike could have seen the street again,
but now John has a backup bike, and a follow racer has a new STRAIGHT frame.
Find someone to giveup a G50 or even just it's frame. Good luck.
Nick Bond
PS This is also how I got my Benelli sence John just wanted the brakes and
suspension.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:27:45 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR "Real" racers vs. conversions, stock vs. modifie
> From my observation of vintage racing two of the big reasons people I know
> joinned into it was: 1, Less exspencive to start into then most other forms of
> racing. 2, Make useful a motorcycle that otherwise might find it's next home in
> the city dump.
Hello Nick,
Don't forget 3. liking old bikes
I try to emphasize to people that they shouldn't use their 100 point
restored bike for racing. If you want to go racing, buy the cheap
rat bike (on its way to the dump). Then if you trim brackets, etc
off you aren't damaging something nice, and since you are going to
have to go through the engine and replace many of the internals it
doesn't matter if the piston/cam is worn out or not.
> As a final note, when my friend John started his vintage race project he chose
> a CB350 twin for parts availability. Little did he know how available they
> where. With in 3 monthes he had been GIVEN 5 whole bikes by folks who had grown
> tired of tripping over them in their garages, and had no intention of ever
> doing anything with them. All of these bike could have seen the street again,
> but now John has a backup bike, and a follow racer has a new STRAIGHT frame.
> Find someone to giveup a G50 or even just it's frame. Good luck.
I've had people give me 160 Hondas - free for the taking, just to get
them out of their way. This not only gets the racer cheap spares,
but gets the bikes (or their parts) back in circulation, which helps
everyone in the movement by making more bikes/parts at reasonable
prices available.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:36:43 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR vintage replicas
> May I, to put explosive oil on the fire, ask what club racing has to do
> with the period G.P. racing of the fifties and sixties? Is it reasonable
> to compare a BSA 500 Gold Star or whatever with a Gilera/MV 500-4, or a
> Honda 350 with a Benelli 350 4-cyl. both for the spectators as for the
> riders? Isn't it historical incorrect to state that the whole idea of
> vintage racing is to have fun with great old machines and the folks who
> build and ride them. Isn't this club racing, instead of "vintage, or
> classic racing". It's not meant to be an attack, I don't know the U.S.
> situation, it's classes etc., but it seems such a big difference between
> the org. racing bikes and the roadster derived racing bikes, which were
> period as well but in most cases (certainly not all) bore little
> resemblance with the period factory racers.
>
> Oops, did not made friends, doesn't matter, just want to stir up the
> fire without stating that the above is my opinion to the full extend.
> Ivar de Gier.
Ivar clearly states what I think is the big point of confusion. To
him (and probably many others in Europe) vintage/classic racing seems
to be an attempt to recreate the GP scene of the period. Hence, the
concern for historical accuracy, works bikes or accurate replicas,
etc.
Ivar, you must remember that here in North America we didn't have
more than the token Euro-GP race. Mosport in Canada and one or two
races at Daytona were about the only times anyone saw a works bike
(though some of the Japanese bikes would show up now and then in
California at club races). For us, classic/vintage racing IS
production based bikes, and the works bikes would, in truth, be the
inaccurate bike for an historical recreation of our racing.
And I don't think you need to worry about offending anyone - I think
this is a subject that should be aired now and again, as it does
cause some confusion between people on different sides of the
Atlantic.
Thanks for the post,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:51:23 -0400
From: makind@igs.net (David L. Makin)
Subject: VintRR "Real" racers vs. conversions, stock vs. modified
There has to be an element of pragmatism in developing rules. While we
never thought it was "fair" that in the VRRA our Gold Star had to race
against 450 Hondas in Period One, we also realized that if it wasn't for
the converted roadsters like the Honda there wouldn't be enough of a grid
even to get us onto the track. Could it have been that years ago owners
of "proper" racers like a G50 or 7R or Manx might have muttered about Gold
Star or Dommi 88 riders cluttering up their tracks?
David Makin Kanata Ontario
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:52:03 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: Re: VintRR vintage replicas
Michael Moore wrote:
> Ivar clearly states what I think is the big point of confusion. To
> him (and probably many others in Europe) vintage/classic racing seems
> to be an attempt to recreate the GP scene of the period. Hence, the
> concern for historical accuracy, works bikes or accurate replicas,
> etc.
Good seen, Michael, here lays my deepest interest and maybe therefore
main "viewing point" toward classic racing as well.
> Ivar, you must remember that here in North America we didn't have
> more than the token Euro-GP race. Mosport in Canada and one or two
> races at Daytona were about the only times anyone saw a works bike
> (though some of the Japanese bikes would show up now and then in
> California at club races). For us, classic/vintage racing IS
> production based bikes, and the works bikes would, in truth, be the
> inaccurate bike for an historical recreation of our racing.
This makes a lot of things clear to me, which were already starting to
become more and more clear in my mind during the time I absorbed all the
very interesting E-mails once this great list got started.
> And I don't think you need to worry about offending anyone - I think
> this is a subject that should be aired now and again, as it does
> cause some confusion between people on different sides of the
> Atlantic.
So it seems! Thanks for making this clear to me, Michael and other
mailing list writers!
Sincerely,
Ivar de Gier.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:42:29 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: VintRR Guzzi single's weights and Airone data.
Michael Moore wrote in the vintage-roadrace list:
>
> Whilst looking through the AHRMA rule book for my reply to David's
> post I noticed the pushrod Guzzi 250 with a maximum 30mm carb is
> legal for the 200 Grand Prix Plus class (which is run, like the
> Formula classes, on an index of performance).
>
> This would be the Airone Sport, which one of my Guzzi books shows was
> made up until 1958. This looks like it has the same basic chassis as
> the Falcone, which is a much older design than the Guzzi racers of
> the mid-50s.
Yes, this is right, the Airone can be seen as a scaled down model of the
Falcone in most respects.
> I'm hoping Ivar will take some time to share some knowledge, as I've
> occasionally wondered if an Airone engine (probably rarer than hen's
> teeth in the US), if put in a Wheeler or Guzzi GP replica chassis
> could be made to put out any kind of reasonable horsepower. It
> seems like it wouldn't be at any more of a basic disadvantage (4
> speed gearbox) than a pushrod Benelli, BSA/Triumph, long-stroke
> Aermacchi, R26 BMW (!) etc, when you consider that all of the 250s
> are limited to a 30mm carb to offset their displacement advantage in
> the class. I wonder just how heavy the Airone engine is in
> comparison to an early Aermacchi?
The Airone engine is a little more heavier then the Aermacchi engine,
just by the feel of both engines which have been lifted by me manually
every now and then. The thought to weigh them has never crossed my mind,
though. The Airone is build like a brick house. The primairy gears
together with the gearbox gears are extreme wide and heavy, so is the
crankshaft, and thickness of the gearbox-shafts. Also the clutch-layout
of the multiple "in oil mist running" clutch is very heavy, as is the
rocker gear and cam following gear. The real weight saving of the
135kg's dry-weight heavy Airone can be achieved by building an ingenious
trellis or spine like (oil-carrying) frame as Michael suggest. This,
combined with the weight saving on the engine could bring the dry-weight
down to ca. 115kg with much ease, with the use of exotic materials even
much lighter (105-110kg). This is shown by some innovative Airone racers
which run around here in Europe. Watch the weak cylinderhead casting,
though. The first Airone of 1939 produced 9.5hp at 4,800rpm, top speed
being ca. 50mph, though 59 mph can be found in period sales brochures.
Most powerfull is the 1949 Airone Sport, which produced 13.5hp at
6,000rpm, which propelled the bike to a decent topspeed of 75mph, which
is a figure that a good running example without legshields etc. can
fetch with an average rider in the saddle.
"The Motorcycle" tested a legshield etc. equipped Airone Sport in 1949.
Topspeed 68mph, speed at end of quarter mile from rest 63mph, time:
20.4secs. In the road test it stated that "under more favourable
conditions a top speed of well over 70mph can be achieved". Later models
Airone Sports delivered 12hp at 5,200rpm, and remained in production
untill 1957.
Tuning is very well possible, as the development of the 500cc FIFTIES
Falcone lookalikes (23hp, 4,500rpm, 84mph)(which was developed as the
successor of a sportive Astore 500 model) proved. The later-Astore and
Falcone carried the same engine-mouldings as the fourties Dondolino
production racer (33hp, 5,500rpm, 106mph) and the fourties factory
Gambalunga (35hp, 5,800rpm, 113mph), though the latter had open valve
gear, and not enclosed as on the later Falcone and period Astore.
Tuning Airone's can very succesfully be done as well, weight saving and
engine tuning are naturally the main ingredients for competitive
competition. All the above mentioned bikes carry however pushrod 2ohv,
single cyl. driven engines.
> As an example of the class, my 250GP CR216 Honda puts out about 21 bhp at
> the rear wheel. It would have to be reduced to 185cc for the 200
> class, so figure that it might loose 2-3 horsepower. Still, a Honda
> can be built to be quite fast and around 220 pounds or less, which
> is a noticeable savings over a narrow case Ducati (whose stock frame
> is really heavy).
A noticeable improvement above the Airone configuration.
The Guzzi production racer s.o.h.c., 2 ohv Albatros, made between 1939
and 1949, comes close to that. Virtually unbeatable in it's class,
delivered 20hp at 7,000rpm and has a top speed of 87.5 mph. (specs. for
road going version for long distance, night riding (equiped with a
dinamo, battery and lights). Weight road going version 135kg, weight
racing version with conventional frame, partly alloy, was 12kg's less.
General Guzzi weight saving tip: flywheel inertia...
> As an aside there was an article in Classic Bike/Racer about 10
> years ago on a 250 BSA that was stomping the Ducati 250s pretty
> handily in England.
>
> The 200 class isn't a real prestigious class, so I don't know how
> many people (other than me) would go to the trouble of building a
> nice race frame for the class. Still, it would be legal, and I'd
> love to see some of the specials that could occur if the more obscure
> bikes actully came out for the class.
>
> Data, I need more data! Everyone run out and weigh your bikes and
> engines so I can do a proper comparison on stuff.
1953 version of the 250cc d.o.h.c., 2ohv Guzzi GP racer: weight 122kg's,
28hp at 8,000rpm, top speed 125mph.
NOTE: All weights mentioned in this E-mail are race-ready weights,
hp-figures are crank figures, speeds depend on gearing. This only unless
pointed otherwise in the text.
Enjoy the info!
Ivar de Gier.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:31:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: VintRR "Real" racers vs. conversions, stock vs. modified
>
>There has to be an element of pragmatism in developing rules. While we
>never thought it was "fair" that in the VRRA our Gold Star had to race
>against 450 Hondas in Period One, we also realized that if it wasn't for
>the converted roadsters like the Honda there wouldn't be enough of a grid
>even to get us onto the track. Could it have been that years ago owners
>of "proper" racers like a G50 or 7R or Manx might have muttered about Gold
>Star or Dommi 88 riders cluttering up their tracks?
>
>
>David Makin Kanata Ontario
>
>
>
David is right. Vintage racing in Canada wouldn't exist if not for
converted street bikes and the rules for our various classes are designed
around this fact. I'm noticing an interesting trend since the VRRA brought
in new rules for CB350's racing in Period 1 (engines, carbs, ignition have
to be bone stock). It looks like this class will be growing by leaps and
bounds this year. All of the people who I know that are presently building
CB350's were either not born or were very young when this bike was
introduced. This entry level class is attracting new racers which will
help to ensure the survival and growth of our sport.
BTW there was only ever one GP in Canada and that was held at Mosport in
1967. Two of the CB450's that raced at Daytona were brought up for it. One
was running in third behind Hailwood and Agostini and the other in fifth
behind Duff when a pile-up in the rain at Moss Corner took then both out.
- --
Peter Alan Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or mariner@istar.ca
Vintage Road Racing - you're only young once but with enough determination
you can stay immature forever.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:32:38 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Guzzi single's weights and Airone data.
Hello Ivar,
Thanks very much for the interesting Airone information. You
mention that some Airone's are being raced in Europe - are they
running against other early to mid-1950s bikes, or against the later
early 1960s designs? Arthur Wheeler did quite well in the GPs even
into the early 60s with his bikes, but then they were ex-works
engines instead of a production street engine.
Was the Gambalunghina 250 produced in very large numbers? Since it
was a SOHC instead of pushrod I'm presuming it was a limited
production version - much like the Norton International. Do you
think the SOHC engine would retain much of an advantage over the
Airone engine if the latter received serious development? That
question presumes that a SOHC engine could be obtained at a price
that would allow a racer project.
Along that line, do you happen to know off hand the included angle
between the valves? From the pictures I've seen I have the
impression that the Guzzi had a reasonably flat valve angle - not
some 90 degree thing with a hugely domed piston needed to get
compression. The flat valve angle and correspondingly compact
combustion chamber would be a plus for tuning.
Do you have any feel for the general availability and price of the
Airone engine (and spares availability for the parts that are prone
to fail too)? I don't recall seeing any production numbers on the
Airone, so I don't know if they are being used as doorstops in
houses around Lake Como, or if they are extremely rare and
expensive.
A Guzzi owner in the Bay Area recently bought a 500 single - I think
it is a GTV, and I think that the price was somewhere in the $5-7000
range for a complete and nice bike. I can't (won't) afford Manx or
G50 engine money, but something more within reason (considering the
cost of developing new cams, pistons, etc for the engine) might come
under serious consideration.
I hope this isn't too much bother, but running a flat single racer is
a long term goal of mine, even if I have to build my own engine (and
I've done some rough figuring on a 1000cc flat single - talk about
stump pulling torque!)
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #14
***************************
VintRR-digest Tuesday, April 15 1997 Volume 01 : Number 015
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:53:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Paul C. Kurth"
Subject: VintRR what is vintage racing?
I don't know what vintage racing is like in other countries, hell I don't
even know why people race here in the US, but there are several reasons
why I am getting into vintage racing. Thay don't have anything to do
with restoring past glories. Vintage racing is a way for me to get into
racing without spending a lot of money on a bike. If I were in it just
for the racing, maybe I could go out and get an $8,000 bike that I'm not
aloud to touch except for some safty wire. Yes, there are some modren
classes that allow you to build your own bike and do whatever you want
to. These are the classes that I will eventually get into, but for now
I need to learn to ride and learn how to make a bike fast. For all of
those people that like bikes the way they came from the factory, that's
why they have those antique bike shows. i don't mean to step on anyone's
toes, but it doesn't make sense to race the exact way they did 30 or 40
years ago. Are you willing to run the same tires they did? Use the
same helmets and leathers they did?
Just look at vintage car racing. Most of the racers are people that have
these older formula Fords and such that didn't have a place to run them.
I think that someone made this point, that if it wasn't for vintage
racing , all of these old vintage cars and motorcycle would just be
rotting away in someones garage.
Cameron
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:40:07 +0100
From: John Goodpaster
Subject: VintRR club racing
>May I, to put explosive oil on the fire, ask what club racing has to do
>with the period G.P. racing of the fifties and sixties?
Not too much, thats why we have classes for both at our vintage
venues and they run seperatly. And your opinion is welcome.
> The whole idea of vintage racing is to have fun with great old
>machines and the folks who build and ride them.........................
>And don't forget the great old people too! Some of us are getting
>more vintage with every passing minute.
I was being kind!............................
John Goodpaster
AHRMA
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:11:49 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR what is vintage racing?
> toes, but it doesn't make sense to race the exact way they did 30 or 40
> years ago. Are you willing to run the same tires they did? Use the
> same helmets and leathers they did?
Hello Cameron,
When my friend Craig lived in England for a year he worked as a
machinist for a wealthy bike/car/plane enthusiast. This fellow had a
1930s-ish GP car, and I heard stories of new Quaife transmission
internals, new crankcases (supplied by Harris I think, or at least
they arranged for the casting and then did the machining),
Cosworth-style oil control/circulation components, billet crankshaft,
etc.
Just like showroom!
I don't think there are a lot of AMC parts inside the Team Obsolete
G50, and I've heard that John Cronshaw's Gold Star largely looks like
a BSA from the outside, and that is about it.
Running modern parts (as long as they don't ruin the period
appearance) has a safety justification, as things don't blow up as
much, spreading shrapnel/fluids/bodies all over the track. Going
faster is just an unintended benefit (wink, wink).
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:52:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Elin Phinizy
Subject: VintRR Replicas and Street Conversions (long)
My apologies for a rather long ramble....but....
If you look at the various classes at "USCRA", you (collectively) will see
that, like AHRMA, there is a reliance on conversions and street machines
being made into "GP" style or "...race prepped roadster motorcycles of
comparable performance and appearance...' able to compete on the track
successfully. As John Goodpaster said." It would be a very thin grid were
we to rely on period racing machines." More to the point, there just were
not that many true racing rockets this side of the Atlantic. We all grew up
on a diet of street Triumphs and Nortons, stock Velocettes and BSA's, the
Japanese Horde. There were sprinklings of things like Maicos, transvestite
Ducatis, Gileras and Benellis (and a host of other Italian singles)
masquerading as Sears and Wards 'finest', as well as Indians and Harleys
(But they were what the Angels rode!). Just one or two of us had things
like water-cooled Bultaco 250's replete with race fairings
We did read about the pure-bred racers, saw photos of people who had
moon-eyes and Ivy on their helmets and all the flash associated with them,
and converted our bikes to act as closely to the real thing as we thought
they could. Sometimes with success - sometimes not. The end result was a
gaggle of bikes that did the most amazing things. It was not uncommon to
put 'cheater sprockets' on Triumph 500's, remove much of the electrics and
go 'cow-trailing'; strip Leadstars and dirt-bike them or run them on a dirt
track; and fashion rearsets and drop bars, etc. to create cafe racers.
Laced up work boots served as the next best thing to real live boots, and
Bates Leathers and Bell Stars were the equipment of choice. The bikes
weren't chopped and customized for the street, but they were tweaked to do
all kinds of amazing things. Wrenches flew and parts dropped by the way to
create the wannabe racer, flat-tracker, and motocrosser and then eventually
reconverted to go to Marin for the weekend. Bikes were handed down in the
oddest of states of use and abuse when people went to Viet-Nam or Europe or
just left town.
To not allow conversions - or severely limit their participation - would
be antithetical to the American racing scene. Conversions really were the
racing scene. It would be like not allowing chocolate sauce with vanilla
ice-cream, and I wouldn't be overly concerned about mismatched classes.
Most of us are well below the capabilities and technology of the bikes, we
are converting. Thank god for advill/ibuprofen.
[When I look back at the trouble, time, and expense that I am having making
the little Gilera 125fl a race-worthy bike, I probably should have bought
the water-cooled Maico factory racer. When I add up the collection of
detritus in my garage - of all the R-5 and RD bits, and add up the
machining paid for and the man hours, I probably should have gotten a real
live, "trick" Tr/Td. (But then I wouldn't have met some really nice
people!) Where would be the challenge. A marvelous tuner and wrench, Geoff
Battick, thinks I am nuts to try and replicate a true DS-7 racer in lieu of
the more predictable (and probably better) RD, but the challenge for me is
to master the funky power-band.]
Real live, antiquated thorough-breds vs. garage specials: It is thrilling
to see Dave Roper consistently clean up a 350 class on an 'outdated AJS
Racer' against some newer, pretty hot technology. I have seen some really
fantastic races where some pukkah Triumphs, Nortons (in some ways an ideal
bike for Loudon), and Hondas fight it out. Todd Henning's 'junkyard 450' is
every bit as serious a racer as an Mv, it's just not as glamorous. I have
also seen a Norton (talk about technology of yesteryear) absolutely crease
his Honda. What is amusing is 'deja vu all over again' with the Japanese
bikes challenging the field just as they did 30 years ago. Converted RD's
frighten the track in Middleweight (USCRA) and then Heavyweight
Supervintage (USCRA) just like their predecessor Td/Trs twenty-five years
ago ( Do I hear "giantkiller"??). Good riders come to the top regardless of
the machine or sometimes despite the machine. When I am about 52 or 53,
maybe I will be as competent as I was reckless at 19. I'll bet the Geoff
Duke Gilera 500/4 would give Todd's 450CB a run for its money any day.
(Wish I could afford one. As a consolation Joe Bolger told me to strap 3
more 125's to my 125 Gilera, and I would have a 500/4...)
A friend of mine went to Williamsburg Virginia a few years back. While
there, he visited a shop that made not very cheap, period flintlocks. The
maker snorted at my friend's comment about replicas and responded by
saying:" I build them just like they did two hundred years ago; they're not
replicas (harumph)..." The arguement over 'repros' and 'repro' parts
doesn't wash. With the exception of better mettalurgy, the same basic
technology applies. If the limitations are examined in the "USCRA/GP"
classes, for example, the bikes are held to some fairly basic standards
which level the 'playing field' greatly. Skill becomes the major
ingredient, not whether it's a 'repop' Manx or a real Manx Norton!
It really is as John said:"... Having the non-racing specific machines such
as Honda 350,RD3-4, Yamaha 650, BSA,Tri, etc,etc is the backbone of vintage
racing which is of course is the old "club racing....".
Anyway, it is a challenge to take my R-5 and continue to modify it and/or
build a DS-7 so that I can beat the equivalent 'real-live' Td/Tr. I'll just
have to get to be as good as that Td/Tr rider, some day. It was a real
thrill on my first outing, when the little Gilera ("I think I can...") went
by a 250 duck - that admittedly had missed a shift - out of the corner and
onto the straight for the flag. Zowie! I might even buy a Maico racer some
day - as long as I can "tink" with it a bit......
Jay
USCRA #47
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:28:04 -0400
From: gwt@magicnet.net (George Taylor)
Subject: Re: VintRR vintage replicas
>>What do you folks think? Should vintage racing be just actual
>>period race bikes (G50/Manx/Aermacchi, etc or accurate replicas) or
>>is there a place for converted CB350 Hondas?
>
>
> If limiting classes to period racing machines is the rule, then the
>grids would be very thin. Replicas fill the void and should be encouraged.
>Period aftermarket parts are a boon to vintage racers since o.e.m. parts
>have just about dried up. Having the non-racing specific machines such as
>Honda 350,RD3-4, Yamaha 650, BSA,Tri, etc,etc is the backbone of vintage
>racing which is of course is the old "club racing'". The aforementioned are
>great entry level machines that can be had reasonably and subjected to
>inovation can be made to be competitive with a limited budget.
> The whole idea of vintage racing is to have fun with great old
>machines and the folks who build and ride them.........................
>
>
>John Goodpaster
> AHRMA
>
===============================================================================
A point well made, John.
George Taylor
George Taylor
#1 of 2Old Racing
gwt@magicnet.net
AHRMA&CCS#637 AMA#141
V&F (407)671-8657
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:43:59 -0400
From: gwt@magicnet.net (George Taylor)
Subject: Re: VintRR vintage replicas
>
>May I, to put explosive oil on the fire, ask what club racing has to do
>with the period G.P. racing of the fifties and sixties? Is it reasonable
>to compare a BSA 500 Gold Star or whatever with a Gilera/MV 500-4, or a
>Honda 350 with a Benelli 350 4-cyl. both for the spectators as for the
>riders? Isn't it historical incorrect to state that the whole idea of
>vintage racing is to have fun with great old machines and the folks who
>build and ride them. Isn't this club racing, instead of "vintage, or
>classic racing". It's not meant to be an attack, I don't know the U.S.
>situation, it's classes etc., but it seems such a big difference between
>the org. racing bikes and the roadster derived racing bikes, which were
>period as well but in most cases (certainly not all) bore little
>resemblance with the period factory racers.
>
>Oops, did not made friends, doesn't matter, just want to stir up the
>fire without stating that the above is my opinion to the full extend.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Ivar de Gier.
>
>
==========================================================================
Hi Ivar,
As you can see from the earlier posts, our stateside views of "vintage racing"
are quite different from your views. I'm kind of curious about how your
vintage racing orginizations classify bikes over there. Are replicas not
allowed??? Are there classes for "production bikes that have been converted
to roadracing specifications as we have over here?
One thing I know for sure. Over here if any of our classes required GP or
Factory Racers only, you probably wouldn't have enough bikes to run the
race. I own and race a TR2B,TD3 and a TR3. As common as these bikes were
over here in the late 60s early 70s there are not many of them left over
here now. As big a race as Daytona vintage days has become, I havn't seen
more than 2 or 3 as sold examples show up. You see a few more "built up"
bikes but they are not origional. But rather a collection of various years
parts assembled to produce a "TD orTR".
Another great part of US Vintage racing (at least for me) is racing with a
lot of the same guys I raced against when we were all younger. I got
involved four years ago after a LONG layoff and it's made me 20 years
younger mentally.
I'm curious. Do you ride in competition? If so, what bike and class?
Best Regards, George
George Taylor
#1 of 2Old Racing
gwt@magicnet.net
AHRMA&CCS#637 AMA#141
V&F (407)671-8657
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:10:28 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: Re: VintRR vintage replicas
George Taylor wrote:
> Hi Ivar,
>
> As you can see from the earlier posts, our stateside views of "vintage racing"
> are quite different from your views. I'm kind of curious about how your
> vintage racing orginizations classify bikes over there. Are replicas not
> allowed??? Are there classes for "production bikes that have been converted
> to roadracing specifications as we have over here?
Yes, both classes, in all variations exists. Almost every country here
has it's own rules and own classes, besides that, various national
racing clubs have their own classes as well. There are organisations
that run almost everything together, old-new, racers-roadsters, on
loacal"'round the church" races. In my eyes the nicest class in Holland
is organised by the CMRCH (Classic Motorcycle Racing Club Holland).
Replica and original racers can be found there, as wel as pukka roadster
derived racers. The odd exotic can be found there as well. To be short,
everything, anything, in any class "goes". There are even Solex races
here....
> One thing I know for sure. Over here if any of our classes required GP or
> Factory Racers only, you probably wouldn't have enough bikes to run the
> race. I own and race a TR2B,TD3 and a TR3. As common as these bikes were
> over here in the late 60s early 70s there are not many of them left over
> here now. As big a race as Daytona vintage days has become, I havn't seen
> more than 2 or 3 as sold examples show up. You see a few more "built up"
> bikes but they are not origional. But rather a collection of various years
> parts assembled to produce a "TD orTR".
>
> Another great part of US Vintage racing (at least for me) is racing with a
> lot of the same guys I raced against when we were all younger. I got
> involved four years ago after a LONG layoff and it's made me 20 years
> younger mentally.
This is a terrific part of classic racing, that's why it becomes more
and more populare here as well, bringing the age of the terrific
machines down at the same time.
> I'm curious. Do you ride in competition? If so, what bike and class?
No, I don't ride myself, but own two exotic racing bikes from the
fifties, amongst some others.
Thanks for your interesting reply. With the days passing I get a better
understanding of the U.S. classic/vintage racing scheme.
All the best,
Ivar de Gier.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:52:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: VintRR Replicas and Street Conversions (long)
Jay writes
>My apologies for a rather long ramble....but....
>
SNIP
Wrenches flew and parts dropped by the way to
>create the wannabe racer, flat-tracker, and motocrosser and then eventually
>reconverted to go to Marin for the weekend. Bikes were handed down in the
>oddest of states of use and abuse when people went to Viet-Nam or Europe or
>just left town.
>
SNIP
>To not allow conversions - or severely limit their participation - would
>be antithetical to the American racing scene. Conversions really were the
>racing scene.
A while back on the BMW tech list someone was
commenting on having worked on a 1950's BMW and a 1950's Harley and how
different the design was for two bikes built in the same period. Someone
else replied that it was due to the fact that the BMW was designed by
German engineers and the Harley by American mechanics.
This, to me, speaks volumes about the differences between the approaches
taken to racing. All you closet anthropologists might want to consider the
differences in culture, class stratification and economic situation
between these two regions of the world.
BTW this has been a great thread so far.
- --
Peter Alan Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or mariner@istar.ca
Vintage Road Racing - you're only young once but with enough determination
you can stay immature forever.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:13:08 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Vintage schedule at Laguna Seca
This information comes from the confirmation card I got from Team
Obsolete for this weekend's vintage exhibition races at the AMA
National at Laguna Seca:
Thursday: tech & registration 3-6PM
Friday: Gates open & tech at 7AM, practice 8AM and 12:40PM
Saturday: Gates open & tech at 7AM, practice 9AM, race 3:30PM
Sunday: Race at 10:10 AM, "Parade of Exotice Bikes Sunday Midday"
I plan to be at the track starting at 3PM on Thursday to help with
tech. I'll be riding a Ducati single, number 211, hopefully on both
Saturday and Sunday (I entered the Laverda in Saturday's race but it
isn't going to make it, so I've got to see about switching the entry
into a different class).
I've been told that all the vintage bikes will be pitted in one area.
Stop by and say hello if you get into the pits.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #15
***************************
VintRR-digest Wednesday, April 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 016
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:49:26 +0100
From: John Goodpaster
Subject: VintRR vintage start
>hey have those antique bike shows. i don't mean to step on anyone's
>toes, but it doesn't make sense to race the exact way they did 30 or 40
>years ago. Are you willing to run the same tires they did? Use the
>same helmets and leathers they did?
We do not use the same tires OR safety equipment that was used 30+
yrs. ago. The point of vintage racing is to Reive the spirit and comaderie
of that era. Helmets are snell 90 ( snell 95 as of Jan.1 '98 ) and no beat
up leathers. It is paramount to promote safety above all so everyone can
enjoy the old machines (and riders). The old machines are in better shape
now then they were 30+ yrs. ago, for the most part. It is a good place for
riders to start as I mentioned before because of the entry bikes available.
We see more and more young racers that are starting out and finding that
the older machines are more fun and less stress and fit in the
budget................
John Goodpaster
AHRMA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:57:42 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Snell 95
Hello John,
How are you going to determine if a helmet meets Snell 95?
I just bought a new X9 Shoei (their top of the line). The Snell
sticker inside it doesn't show a date - instead it has a code number:
DG 546641 and a date of manufacture sticker from Shoei (Jan2897).
Perhaps the Snell 95 certification will be in effect after a certain
date of manufacture, so people should be advised to not remove the
manufacture date sticker.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:32:32 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Laguna Seca pictures
I thought I'd mention that I do intend to take my camera and lots of
film to Laguna, and with 3 days I plan on shooting lots of detail
shots of the MV, Benelli, Honda 6, etc for posting on the web site.
Stay tuned.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:59:14 -0400
From: gwt@magicnet.net (George Taylor)
Subject: Re: VintRR Laguna Seca pictures
>I thought I'd mention that I do intend to take my camera and lots of
>film to Laguna, and with 3 days I plan on shooting lots of detail
>shots of the MV, Benelli, Honda 6, etc for posting on the web site.
============================================================================
Looking forward to the Pictures, Michael. I don't know if Barber is making
the trip out there or not but if they do, see if you can get some good shots of
Jarno Sarenin's Daytona winninng TZ350 from 73.They had it at Daytona but I
missed getting any pictures of it. The bike is almost identical to the
ones they sold us "privateers" the following year.
Have fun!! Wish I could have brought my bikes out this year but Daytona
wiped my budget out til Mid Ohio.
Good Luck, George Taylor
>Stay tuned.
>
>Cheers,
>Michael
>Michael Moore
>Euro Spares, SF CA
>Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
>Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for
constructors"
>http://www.eurospares.com
>AFM/AHRMA #364
>
>
George Taylor
#1 of 2Old Racing
gwt@magicnet.net
AHRMA&CCS#637 AMA#141
V&F (407)671-8657
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:53:38 -0700
From: Rucastle
Subject: VintRR new member intro
Hi all. My name is Hylton Rucastle, I live in Winfield, British Columbia,
Canada. For the past 13 years I have been running a bike shop called
Tritech Cycle, I specialize in British bikes but do head work for the odd
Harley. I do not race bikes but I feel it's because of racing that most
improvements to designs come about.
I am a member of the Motorcycle Division of the Okanagan Auto Sports Club
(OASC). The OASC has a 260 acre parcel of land (leased from the
Government). Our objective (M/C Div.) is to promote all aspects of M/C
competition and develop the park to act as a hub for this competition. At
present there is a 1/8 mile Drag strip that we are using to hold 'M/C only'
drag races. It is our hope to eventually, with help from the car guys,
build a road course. If this ever becomes a reality I'm sure a few VRR
bikes would surface or be built. A couple of buddies and myself have
talked about building a VRR. This would be a Brit powered twin cyl bike,
more than likely a Triumph due to new and used parts availability.
What I can offer this list I know not, but I will participate when I can.
Regards
Hylton
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:18:41 -0700
From: Rucastle
Subject: VintRR Ignition and Dyno
Hi Tomas, I too like single cylinder bikes but unfortunately mine is a B50
and not a DBD. I must say though that the B50 serves me well, on the
street, I do not road race. The nearest track is approx 650 Km away .
I am most interested in your ignition project. At this time I am using a
Boyer but feel it leaves a lot to be desired.
What kind of Dyno did you build, a water brake style or an inertia style?
I have been wanting to build a Dyno but can not find a suitable brake. The
inertia style maybe easier to build but I don't know if it would be very
accurate when driven by the rear wheel instead of the crank shaft.
If you have time and would not mind sharing your knowledge on your ignition
and dyno I would greatly appreciate hearing from you.
Thank you.
Regards,
Hylton Rucastle
(I live in Winfield, British Columbia, Canada)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:46:05 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: VintRR Total Loss Charging
So as things get a bit closer to race day, I start to wonder about things
like: how do I charge my battery in the middle of a race weekend? I'm
running total loss, and I've got a spare battery and a charger, but AC
isn't always available.
The questions are:
Can I charge a battery by just connecting it to the truck battery? Engine
stopped or idling?
Will I damage the battery by paralleling it to the truck battery during
short runs for beer and pizza?
Should I just take a motel to get a private AC supply?
Thanks,
Glenn
msgr@hookup.net
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #16
***************************
VintRR-digest Friday, April 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 017
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:06:12 -0400
From: RDSRUS@sssnet.com (William Fulmer)
Subject: VintRR Snell 95
Michael,
On the subject of Snell 95 stickers if they go the same way as they
have in the past no sticker=no certification. My new Shoei RF-R has a
valid Snell 95 sticker. Build date Aug 21 95. Perhaps it will meet Snell
95 or better but without the sticker it would be very difficult for race
organizations to police what is a good model.So knowing how fast these
august bodies move to get it cleared up by 98 you better start going
now. Good luck Bill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:32:14 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Total Loss Charging
> Can I charge a battery by just connecting it to the truck battery? Engine
> stopped or idling?
Yes, and stopped.
> Will I damage the battery by paralleling it to the truck battery during
> short runs for beer and pizza?
I don't think so, but don't blame if it does.
> Should I just take a motel to get a private AC supply?
This sounds best!
> Thanks,
> Glenn
Hello Glenn,
I asked this recently on some other lists, and the general consensus
(throwing out the recommendations at each end) was to put a 3-5 ohm
resistor in one of the charging leads when topping up from the truck
battery.
Here is a post on solar chargers that one fellow sent in - I haven't
gotten around to contacting the source yet, but the price sounds
good.
Cheers,
Michael
**************************************************
>>I did consider one of the solar cell rechargers that are sold
>>(mostly) for personal watercraft, but at ~$60+ it makes the
>>wire/alligator clips and resistor sound pretty appealing.
While I'm sure there are different brands and designs available, I
found a selection of solar-powered rechargers that are very handy and
quite affordable. They're just the ticket when I go to a two or three
day event, and my rides are limited to a series of first-gear hops
around the flea market on a 50 year old bike.
They offer 6v, 12v, or 24v versions. As I remember, prices were about
$24.
Here's where I got mine:
Beachwood Canvas Works
(908) 929-3168 phn
(908) 929-3479 fax
I picked mine from them about 2 years ago at a show, so my price info
might be a dollar or two off. I use the 24v charger, and it works fine
for both 6 & 12v motorcycle batteries. jl
John Lacko lacko@bwmail1.hcc.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:38:14 -0700
From: Rucastle
Subject: Re: VintRR Total Loss Charging
>
>Can I charge a battery by just connecting it to the truck battery? Engine
>stopped or idling?
>
>Will I damage the battery by paralleling it to the truck battery during
>short runs for beer and pizza?
>
>Should I just take a motel to get a private AC supply?
>
Hi Glen, as far as I know the truck battery should charge the bike battery
even if the truck engine is stopped. I've been told that if you hook two
batteries in parallel in a vehicle you should have an isolator. Apparently
if one battery is weak it will charge it self off of the strong one until
it is stronger then the process will reverse and the batteries will
eventually kill them selves.
Not sure about the 2nd question.
It may be cheaper to rent a small gen set for the weekend than to take a room.
Regards,
Hylton
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:41:46 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Snell 95
> Michael,
> On the subject of Snell 95 stickers if they go the same way as they
> have in the past no sticker=no certification. My new Shoei RF-R has a
> valid Snell 95 sticker. Build date Aug 21 95. Perhaps it will meet Snell
> 95 or better but without the sticker it would be very difficult for race
> organizations to police what is a good model.So knowing how fast these
> august bodies move to get it cleared up by 98 you better start going
> now. Good luck Bill
Hello Bill,
That is why I wanted to bring it to John Goodpaster's attention,
since he's chief tech inspector for AHRMA (or some similarly
prestigious position).
As I mentioned, my new helmet which was built just a few months ago
doesn't have a year sticker, just a serial numbered Snell
certification sticker that says it has passed the (unspecified) Snell
standard. I guess they may be operating on the presumption that the
helmet will have a build-date sticker from the mfgr (which it does)
and if they have the certifications in 5 year increments you can tell
from the build sticker which certification is met. I think there may
also have been a problem of Snell stickers being put in uncertified
helmets, hence the numberd Snell sticker which will allow some
tracing to be done if necessary.
Seems like a situation with lots of potential angst involved.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:41:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: VintRR Total Loss Charging
>
>So as things get a bit closer to race day, I start to wonder about things
>like: how do I charge my battery in the middle of a race weekend? I'm
>running total loss, and I've got a spare battery and a charger, but AC
>isn't always available.
>
>The questions are:
>
>Can I charge a battery by just connecting it to the truck battery? Engine
>stopped or idling?
>
>Will I damage the battery by paralleling it to the truck battery during
>short runs for beer and pizza?
>
>Should I just take a motel to get a private AC supply?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Glenn
>
>
> msgr@hookup.net
> Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
>
What I was told is that you can charge an MC battery off you car/truck
battery but you have to put something in line to use up some of the
current as the smaller battery can't handle the full load. The person who
told me suggested putting a car headlight in the circuit. I have seen rigs
that plug into the cigarette lighter and can charge a smaller battery but
I can't remember who was selling them. I take two batteries and they usually
do me for the weekend. What would it cost to rent one of the small Honda
generators? They're almost silent and weigh practically nothing.
- --
Peter Alan Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or mariner@istar.ca
Vintage Road Racing - you're only young once but with enough determination
you can stay immature forever.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:05:20 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Total Loss Charging
> do me for the weekend. What would it cost to rent one of the small Honda
> generators? They're almost silent and weigh practically nothing.
>
> Peter Alan Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or mariner@istar.ca
Someone on the Race list recently mentioned that his cheap small Briggs &
Stratton generator recently had a catastropic failure that resulted
in a small fire from the flames shooting from it. He said that he
would definitely spend the extra money on the next one to buy a Honda
generator. When you think of all the millions (only a small
exaggeration) of 50cc Honda motorcycles running around while
suffering massive abuse it would seem likely that a Honda generator
would be extremely reliable.
Plus, I've heard that Ellis is developing a DOHC conversion for them.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:01:34 -0500
From: Richard Hill
Subject: Re: VintRR Total Loss Charging
Glenn Thomson wrote:
>
> So as things get a bit closer to race day, I start to wonder about things
> like: how do I charge my battery in the middle of a race weekend? I'm
> running total loss, and I've got a spare battery and a charger, but AC
> isn't always available.
>
> The questions are:
>
> Can I charge a battery by just connecting it to the truck battery? Engine
> stopped or idling?
>
> Will I damage the battery by paralleling it to the truck battery during
> short runs for beer and pizza?
>
> Should I just take a motel to get a private AC supply?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Glenn
>
> msgr@hookup.net
> Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
The problem isn't so much the voltage, but current. If you remember the
instructions for charging a new battery, they want you to charge it with
a 'trickle' type charger. A long slow charge is better than a fast
charge. Ever hooked a 4 amp charger to a battery? It'll get warm.
Hook a 1 amp to it, and there's no temperature change. You could hook
your battery to your trucks, but put a big resistor of 3 to 4 ohms rated
at 5 to 10amps in series. This should keep the current down and the
voltage up.
3ohm @ 10amp
______/-------------/\/\-----------------\___
| * /| Resistor |\* |
| + | | + |
| - | | - |
| *\ | |/* |
|____\| /___|
\---------------------------------/
Truck Battery Motorcycle Battery
Good luck!
- --
Richard Hill
CMRA #414
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:27:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: VintRR Total Loss Charging
>
>> do me for the weekend. What would it cost to rent one of the small Honda
>> generators? They're almost silent and weigh practically nothing.
>>
>> Peter Alan Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or mariner@istar.ca
>
>Someone on the Race list recently mentioned that his cheap small Briggs &
>Stratton generator recently had a catastropic failure that resulted
>
>Plus, I've heard that Ellis is developing a DOHC conversion for them.
>
>Cheers,
>Michael
Won't the open megaphone be rather loud for use in the pits?
- --
Peter Alan Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or mariner@istar.ca
Vintage Road Racing - you're only young once but with enough determination
you can stay immature forever.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:13:51 -0400
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR Total Loss Charging
> Honda> generator. When you think of all the millions (only a > small exaggeration) of 50cc Honda motorcycles running around while
> suffering massive abuse it would seem likely that a Honda
> generator would be extremely reliable.
> Plus, I've heard that Ellis is developing a DOHC conversion for > them.
>
I've got a prototype running. On the dyno with the DOHC head, it flashes
about 20 hp. Big problem right now is I keep breaking bearings. I've
heard the factory had a YB kit that was only given out to "favored"
teams. If I can find out what bearing sizes they used, I've got it
fixed.
Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:29:33 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Don't have problems until Monday
I'm heading off to Laguna Seca in an hour and won't be back until
late Sunday night.
If you have any list problems you'll need to suffer quietly until I
get back and can help you with them (probably Monday evening).
Until then,
Have fun
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:33:43 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Silly generator posts
> I've got a prototype running. On the dyno with the DOHC head, it flashes
> about 20 hp. Big problem right now is I keep breaking bearings. I've
> heard the factory had a YB kit that was only given out to "favored"
> teams. If I can find out what bearing sizes they used, I've got it
> fixed.
> Ellis
But Ellis,
Shouldn't you be telling us what the power is in kilowatts instead of
horsepower? It is a generator after all.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:43:41 AST
From: "Darrell Hingley"
Subject: VintRR weekend
Michael, Enjoy the trip, all us freezen Canucks wish we were there,
if you see any 400 or 350f racers sanp a shot, I will be be happy to
cover oyur costs. Darrell in the great North.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:41:09 -0400
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR Silly generator posts
>
> But Ellis,
>
> Shouldn't you be telling us what the power is in kilowatts instead of
> horsepower? It is a generator after all.
>
Generator??? Oh yeah, that's what that little box attached to the crank
is! Didn't make the connection!
On a different, more serious note, I'd posted earlier about a source
for copper head gaskets. I've received the gasket today. It is solid
copper, not laminate, so looks like if you need a head gasket, and
can't find it, give the folks at Copper Gasket (602) 993-2606 at try.
They seem to produce a quality product at a reasonable price. Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:52:49 -0400
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR GS250
Anybody out there have or know where I can lay hands on a cylinder head
for an '80s Suzuki GS250?
Thanks! Ellis
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #17
***************************
VintRR-digest Saturday, April 19 1997 Volume 01 : Number 018
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:37:49 -0400
From: RDSRUS@sssnet.com (William Fulmer)
Subject: VintRR More Snell 95
Michael,
Look closely at your Snell sticker, if it is like mine it is a beige
color with the M95 in the background in white. This colr combination is
very tough to see with my vintage eyesight. They may also go by color to
designate different specs. I believe this has been Snell practice in the
past. Good luck Bill
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:03:37 -0700
From: Rucastle
Subject: VintRR lack of mail
I have not received any mail from this list for a while now. I'm sending
this to see if it comes back.
Hylton
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #18
***************************
VintRR-digest Monday, April 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 019
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 16:55:40 +0100
From: John Goodpaster
Subject: VintRR helmets
>How are you going to determine if a helmet meets Snell 95?
>
>I just bought a new X9 Shoei (their top of the line). The Snell
>sticker inside it doesn't show a date - instead it has a code number:
>DG 546641 and a date of manufacture sticker from Shoei (Jan2897).
You should be able to see a faint outline of the date on the
sticker inside the helmet. Being a '97 mfg.date it would be a Snell '95.
Never remove your stickers as they are the only proof ( outside of
chasing down a seriel #) that you have an approved helmet. These rules are
necessary to maintain the "standard of care" and most all racing
organizations enjoin this. To not maintain the highest standards of
available safety items could mean that the organization is lax and could be
found liable in the event of an incedent. The only helmets that are exempt
are several made in Europe whose standards exceed that of d.o.t. and Snell.
A snell approved helmet should have a Snell sticker or sewn in
label depicting the standard.Look way up in the lining under the cloth head
cover and it should be there.....................
John Goodpaster
AHRMA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:26:13 -0400
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR Hybrid Honda
I was looking through my March 1997 issue of "Classic Bike" and found a
rather intresting picture. A racer by the name of Dave Simmonds raced a
CR72 in Norton featherbed frame. Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:11:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Hnry@aol.com
Subject: VintRR AHRMA's "G-P kitted"
Fellows,
I read, and re-read, rule books, follow web links, look forward to e-mail,
and ponder my own introduction to roadracing... my question: What does it
mean for a motorcycle to be "G-P kitted", and given that: What qualifies it
"fully G-P kitted"?
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 13:57:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Paul C. Kurth"
Subject: VintRR Vint RR tubeless conversion
Has anyone had much luck with converting a spoked rim to run tubeless? I
was thinking of trueing the wheel up then using an adhesive on the inside
of the rim to seal the nipples. I was thinking of maybe some RTV or
something like that, that won't get soft when it gets hot.
I would probably have to retreat the rim after making an asjustment to
the spokes, but I could live with that.
Cameron
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:12:22 -0500 (EST)
From: ben.english@DMVMS.mailnet.state.ny.us
Subject: VintRR tubeless conversion
Cameron wrote:
>>Has anyone had much luck with converting a spoked rim to run
^^^^^^^^
tubeless?<<
Ooh, I HATE that. All motorcycle wheels are spoked, except for the occasional
disc wheels found on Fatboys and dragsters. You mean a "wire wheel", don't you?
Beyond this carping, I have nothing to offer except to note that late BMW dual
sport bikes with wire wheels have a very neat arrangement whereby the spoke
nipples are at the hub, and the straight pull spoke heads fit through holes at
the outer edges of the rim rather than in the center as per tradition. Not only
does this allow tubeless tires, but it makes the wheel stronger and allows
replacement of a spoke without removing the tire (although you might have to
deflate to get clearance).
Vintage legal? Dunno. Size selection must be limited, and prices are surely sky
high.
Ben English
1972 Norton Commando Combat Roadster #201695 / 1972 Olmo 10 speed
Amtrak National Timetable / Pocket full of bus tokens / Good shoes
USNOA 1395 / NOC 04X06.2530.0 / MGNOC 15713
Scowling Street Terrors 2 / Skinny Tire Motorcycle Club 3
Lower East Side Egyptian Cobras 4 / Hells' Vegetarians 5
Denizens of Doom 304
ben.english@dmvms.mailnet.state.ny.us Albany, New York, USA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:05:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Paul C. Kurth"
Subject: Re: VintRR tubeless conversion
> Ooh, I HATE that. All motorcycle wheels are spoked, except for the occasional
> disc wheels found on Fatboys and dragsters. You mean a "wire wheel", don't you?
Okay, wire wheels. To clarify my question: I know that alot of vintage
racers seal the spoke nipples, in order to get rid of the tube, but I was
looking for good info on people doing this on a street bike.
I was a kid in the 70's and 80's, when BMX bikes were big. You road
either spoke wheels or mag wheels. This is were I guess I get my
terminalogy.
Cameron
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #19
***************************
VintRR-digest Wednesday, April 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 020
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:16:09 +0100
From: John Goodpaster
Subject: VintRR G.P. kitted
>Fellows,
>I read, and re-read, rule books, follow web links, look forward to e-mail,
>and ponder my own introduction to roadracing... my question: What does it
>mean for a motorcycle to be "G-P kitted", and given that: What qualifies it
>"fully G-P kitted"?
GP kitted means putting on all the stuff that GP machines had on
them. Such as low bars, fairings, setbacks and any other neat parts that
made up period GP race machines..............
John Goodpaster
AHRMA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:37:09 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR GS250
> Anybody out there have or know where I can lay hands on a cylinder head
> for an '80s Suzuki GS250?
> Thanks! Ellis
Hello Ellis,
While I don't think they were really common, I've seen GS250s in the
Bay Area, so checking out salvage yards should turn one up. An 8
valve version of the GS400-450 (I think it was the 450) was sold in
markets other than the U.S. I presume you are looking at this for
the CR77 replica project.
I spoke to my friend Peter last night - he was about 2 hours short of
having the CR77 ready for this past weekend's races at Laguna, but
says he will be at Willow Springs next weekend (but I won't). He
pulled many an all nighter, but just ran out of time, as is all to
common with these projects (e.g. my Laverda 750).
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:37:10 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Hybrid Honda
> I was looking through my March 1997 issue of "Classic Bike" and found a
> rather intresting picture. A racer by the name of Dave Simmonds raced a
> CR72 in Norton featherbed frame. Ellis
Simmonds also had an ex-works Kawasaki 125 that he raced in the GPs
(along, I believe, with a 50cc twin Tohatsu for UK races). He died
in a fire in his trailer at or on the way to a race.
He was 125 world champ on the Kawasaki in 1969, and 4th the following
year.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:37:10 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR AHRMA's "G-P kitted"
> I read, and re-read, rule books, follow web links, look forward to e-mail,
> and ponder my own introduction to roadracing... my question: What does it
> mean for a motorcycle to be "G-P kitted", and given that: What qualifies it
> "fully G-P kitted"?
>
> Scott
Hello Scott,
From the 1996 rule book it is "with no lights, no starting
mechanisms, no street equipment or brackets, and low, narrow
handlebars".
Basically, make it look as much like a "real" roadracer as possible.
I'd think that street equipment would include street exhausts, and
possibly the seat and tank as well, though you might scrape through
on the tank if you've got a more racerish seat.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:37:10 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Vint RR tubeless conversion
> Has anyone had much luck with converting a spoked rim to run tubeless? I
> was thinking of trueing the wheel up then using an adhesive on the inside
> of the rim to seal the nipples. I was thinking of maybe some RTV or
> something like that, that won't get soft when it gets hot.
>
> I would probably have to retreat the rim after making an asjustment to
> the spokes, but I could live with that.
Hello Cameron,
I was told by a local short/dirt tracker in Albuquerque (early 70s)
that he ran his 250 tubeless on indoor short tracks, but had to pump
the tires up every time he went out to ride.
I don't know that I'd want to deal with the possiblity of a tire
deflating at speed, especially as the spokes are likely to work just
a bit in the rim under heavy loads.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 17:37:10 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR tubeless conversion
> Ooh, I HATE that. All motorcycle wheels are spoked, except for the occasional
> disc wheels found on Fatboys and dragsters. You mean a "wire wheel", don't you?
The Motobecane-sponsored Benelli Sei raced at the Bol d'Or 24 hour
endurance race had "unspoked" disc wheels, as did a Ducati 750 I set
up with an early set of Mitchell wheels (now sold as Performance
Machine wheels). I think I also saw a picture of a prototype
Astralite wheel that used a solid CF disc on either side bridging
between the hub and rim (or incorporating the rim, I don't remember
this detail).
So you would be more accurate to say that all motorcycle wheels are
spoked, except those that aren't.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 10:22:01 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR The Laguna Seca Vintage Races
About 3 weeks ago Michael Green from West Coast British (Racing)
called and offered me the use of his 200cc Ducati (a sleeved-down 250)
for the Team Obsolete Vintage "Exhibition" races at Laguna Seca, and
no great arm twisting was needed to get me to accept his offer. I
entered the Ducati in the 250GP, and in a fit of optimism entered the
Laverda in F750. The Laverda didn't get together in time, so I
swapped the entry for a slot in the 350GP race on the 200.
I left for Laguna Seca last Thursday midday, and arrived around 3PM to
register and then help run tech (Michael Green of WCBR, his friend
Rob, and I ran tech all weekend).
Friday the fog was in, and the morning Vintage practice (and pretty
much every other practice) was scratched due to near zero visibility,
especially at the top of the hill going to the Corkscrew.
Things cleared up around noon, and I eventually got to take the WCBR
200cc Ducati out to get familiar with it and refamiliarize myself with
the track (which I last rode in 1987). The Duckling was freshly
assembled and needed some break in. The carburation was a bit off too
but I didn't want to mess with it until I was more familiar with the
bike. As it worked out, it never was changed as the limited practice
didn't give enough opportunity for testing (and if it is at all
rideable I'll leave things alone rather than go into a race with an
untested change).
Friday night in Salinas the rain came down pretty heavily, but after
some delay Saturday morning the track was finally dried out enough for
practices. The Vintage practice was late in the morning, and the race
(last of the day) was about 6PM. The jokes about rounding up enough
flashlights to tape to the bikes were getting a bit strained by then.
The Saturday race was F750/350GP/Pre52/Class C. Dave Roper was
riding the Dick Mann BSA triple in the race, but the clutch expired
and he retired. I don't have the F750 results, but in the 350GP race
Michael Green got the holeshot, and after a few turns noticed
something dragging. It turned out the megaphone had fractured, and
Michael pulled off in Turn 5 and battered the megaphone until it broke
off the rest of the way. He then rejoined the race, passing 5 riders
by the Corkscrew, and taking the lead by Turn 5 on the second lap. He
went on to lap the 350s up to 4th place (in a 6 lap race), and passed
all but the top 5 F750 entries. Erik Green, on a Team Obsolete AJS 7R
was second, and I managed to take the 200 Ducati past a 250 TSS
Bultaco and an AJS 7R, as well as one or two of the Pre'52 bikes for
10th in class.
Sunday the weather was much nicer. I spent the morning helping Dave
Roper strip the clutch on the BSA so it would be available for David
Aldana to ride in the midday exhibition. All the metal plates were
warped and the other plates were shedding the friction material. We
couldn't get the plates pulled out of the clutch (this is a dry clutch
mounted in the primary cover, not the stock BSA/Triumph cast iron
abomination lurking deep in the bowels of the engine) and ended up
having to pull the clutch and drive the hub and plates out. A
moderate amount of dressing of the slots in the hub and basket was
needed to get the new plates to move freely. I had just gotten my
hands cleaned up when the PA announced first call for the Vintage race
(500 Premier, 250GP, Classic 60s).
I scrambled into my gear and went over to the WCBR pit area. I
checked for fuel, plugged in the battery, and got Rob to push. It
wouldn't fire, and then Rob noticed the rag was still stuffed in the
carb bellmouth - DUH! After removing the obstruction the bike started
up and I made my way to the hot pit gate. Upon arrival the bike died
and wouldn't restart - nary a pop. I pushed back to the pit and, as
it was the only thing I could think of that I could do, swiped the
battery out of the WCBR 350 Ducati and attracted the attention of a
bypasser for a push (yelling in a full-face helmet isn't very
effective for this). The bike started up - it turned out that Rob and
Michael hadn't put a fresh battery in it and the previous day's use
had drained it.
I rushed back to the hot pit gate, but since the rest of the grid was
already forming on the track I was directed up to the starter's
position (at the bridge across the track, well up the front straight)
and told to wait there until the entire grid had gone by. This gave me
a nice uphill standing start, and I crested the hill to see the last
rider leaving turn 2.
Spurred on by the adrenaline generated by the bad battery incident,
and getting more comfortable with the bike with each lap (and no doubt
helped by the good luck pat the bike got earlier in the morning from
Beth Dixon) I was able to catch up and pass an unknown number of
riders (I don't have the results sheet for Sunday) and finished 3rd in
class (250GP). Being on a 200 against the 250s (including at least
one Bultaco 250) I was pretty well chuffed by this. As expected,
Michael Green ran away from everyone to take the 250 class as his
second win of the weekend.
Other tidbits: Yvon duHamel was the top 350 rider in the 500
Premier class on a TO AJS. John Cronshaw was entered in the class on
the ever-so-trick Unity BSA, and I'm sure he finished well up in the
pack if not in first. I think I did see him at the victory circle
after the race, but I had pulled well back from the stand so as to
stay out of range of the spraying champagne.
Instead of trophys we were presented with certificates signed by the
riders in the exhibition laps (see my other post on this), and 3rd
place also netted me a $75 gift certificate to AirTech, one of the
Team Obsolete sponsors.
Overall, the Team Obsolete races went very well. The riders all had a
good time, no serious crashes occurred (being there for FUN was
repeatedly emphasized by race director Randy Bradescu), and the
spectators seemed to be enjoying the races. With luck, SCRAMP and the
AMA also were pleased and we'll be able to do it again next year.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:25:34 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Team Obsolete - Exotic Bikes and Riders
I'll make my bias clear from the start - if you ever have a chance to
see the Team Obsolete works-bikes run, DO NOT MISS IT!!!!!!!
I spoke with one person who had come up from Bakersfield to the
track specifically to see the Honda six - he wasn't interested in the
AMA races, and while he enjoyed the vintage races and the other works
bikes, the six was the big draw. I'm sure this holds for other people
too.
The star of the collection is the 250cc Honda six-cylinder bike. This
bike is definitely on my short list of the all-time coolest race bikes
built (I also like the Moto Guzzi 350/500 V8s for their complex
engines, and the Moto Guzzi mid-50s works singles for their elegant
simplicity, and the Honda 125-5 because it is so tiny and cute).
At Laguna Seca Rob Ianucci (the big kahuna at Team Obsolete) brought
the six, the ex-Renzo Pasolini 350 Benelli four cylinder, the
ex-Giacomo Agostini MV Agusta 500 triple, an MV Agusta 500 four
cylinder, the Rod Coleman AJS triple-cam 350 single, and the Dick Mann
BSA Rocket 3 (upon which Dick won Daytona). Other than updated tires
(the 80/90x18 Avon (Avon is one of the TO sponsors) on the front of
the six is noticeably wider than the fender, but it appears to be the
smallest Avon available) and some stickers of Team Obsolete sponsors
the bikes look to be quite original. The BSA does have a belt-drive
primary conversion (which I got quite familiar with when I helped Dave
Roper fix the well-toasted clutch Sunday morning), but that is pretty
much the major deviation from stock on the bikes.
David Aldana rode the MV-4 in Friday's vintage practice, but dropped
it in slow turn 2 after interfacing with some oil dropped by one of
the other exotics (which shall remain nameless, but if the assembly
error it was suffering from had happened on a "modern" four-stroke
race bike it would have puked some oil too). Luckily, the MV
experienced only cosmetic damage (as did David's brand new "bones"
leathers), but was banished to the container to hide for the rest of
the weekend.
The six makes the most wonderfully horrible noise - it is LOUD! The
350 Benelli is noticeably deeper in pitch even though it revs pretty
high (though lower in RPM than the six, which is warmed up at ~10-11K
RPM!). The MV is a typical 4 cylinder in sound, and the BSA has the
bellow characteristic of the 750 triples. The AJS doesn't sound
different from a standard 7R, and is a bit overwhelmed by the other
works bikes.
When the six is fired up people come from all over the pits to listen
to it, and I wasn't surprised to find the wide grin on my face
duplicated by many other people as we listened to the "whoop-whoop" as
the six was warmed up.
The drill on Saturday and Sunday was as follows: the bikes were
started in the pits and ridden to the hot pit where they were lined up
and stopped, and Bill Spencer did a short interview with each rider.
After this the Honda was sent out and given about a 3/4 lap lead
before each of the other bikes was sent out about 40 seconds apart.
The order was Honda, Benelli, MV, BSA and AJS. After a lap the bikes
lined up on the track and another short interview was done.
They went out for another lap, with the Honda leading off and the
other four bikes going together. They returned to the grid and staged
for a group hot start and were given two laps so that they could
traverse the front straight at speed (great fun!). After this is was
off to the victory circle for more interviews and photo ops, and then
back to the pits.
I was very pleased to be selected as an offical TO "pusher" for both
days. This involved pushing the bike/rider for starts, standing
behind the rider during the interviews (in my official Team Obsolete
hat and shirt), carrying a TO cap for the rider to wear whilst sans
helmet, and then pushing the bike back to the pits. I was quick on
the draw and snagged the Honda on Saturday, but had to let one of the
others have it for Sunday, and so ended up with the Benelli (what a
second choice!). I'm looking forward to seeing my picture in the
magazines - another minute or two of fame (such as it is).
The Team Obsolete pits were about half way between the main pit gate
and the track, and this area is slightly downhill from the track. I
suppose I should have pushed the bikes back to the pits, exhibiting
the decorum appropriate to my exalted task, but I'll have to admit to
succumbing to temptation. As soon as I had a clear shot to the TO
pits I mounted the bikes, and with a quick paddle took them for a
short test ride. Granted, the engines weren't running, but hey, I'll
take what I can get.
Test ride report:
Both bikes steered lightly but with great precision. The controls
fell readily to hand and foot, and the front brake on the Benelli was
a bit more sudden than the Honda. Surprisingly, the Honda, while
being the more compact overall of the two bikes had the more
comfortable riding position. Renzo Pasolini must have had short or
very limber legs, as the pegs are noticeably higher than on the Honda.
As you might imagine, I told Rob that I'd be glad to help out again
when next the bikes get to my area.
The riders:
My introduction to Jim Redman started with a minor case
of mistaken identity on my part. On Thursday I heard him talking
about the Honda, and with the accent figured he could only be one of
two people. I walked up and asked if he was Nobby Clark (former Honda
works mechanic, now no longer associated with TO). My 50% likelihood
of being right matched my luck in the lottery (zero) and I was
informed that I was speaking to Jim Redman. He was nice about it, and
I had a small chat with him, during which he graciously allowed me to
show him a picture of my Honda CR216 vintage racer. When I mentioned
how my Honda was also quite noisy (135dB) he told me an amusing
anecdote: he said that when they were at the GPs and time came to
start the bikes they would often line them all up with the exhausts
pointed towards the Yamaha pits, and would proceed to share the
exhaust noise with their opponents. Dirty pool, that.
I was also interested to note that Redman was a "full-size" rider,
especially when compared to many of the other GP riders of the day
(such as Luigi Taveri, Billy Ivy, etc).
I had several talks with David Aldana, and found him quite an
engaging guy. We talked about riding our BSA dirt bikes, and when he
was taking notes on the different bikes and remarked on the fabricated
triple clamps on the MVs and BSA I showed him some pictures of the
sheetmetal clamps I made for my Laverda, which he seemed to find of
some interest.
Yvon duHamel was "my" rider on Sunday, and while we didn't talk much
he seemed pretty nice. As you might expect, he was quite pleased over
the showing his sons were making in the AMA races, and entertained
himself during a photo op at the TO pits by trickling water from his
cup down the back of Aldana's neck. I was amused when I tried to
collect his cap from him before he went out for more laps - he
insisted on taking it with him, zipped up inside his leathers. I think
he's had enough occasions where he's had to spend time at trackside
that he wanted to be sure to have a hat with him "just in case".
I didn't get a chance to talk with Don Vesco, but as with the others
he's basically just another racer and seemed happy to talk about
bikes, his LSR attempts etc.
Last but not least is Dave Roper. Everything I've heard about Dave
over the years has indicated that he's quite a nice chap, and I'll
have to admit that I didn't see anything to contradict this. He's
kept quite busy, as he is a working member of TO as well as their
regular rider, but he seemed to maintain his good spirits in spite of
rushing around doing stuff.
As for the rest of Team Obsolete, Jennifer and Sonia were quite nice
and helpful, running registration, doing the grids, general
administrative tasks, and Jennifer also was a pusher during the
exhibitions. Erik Green is another friendly sort, and was kept busy
with fettling the different bikes, yet still found time to ride an AJS
7R to second place in the 350GP race. Rob was a bit harried at times,
but I'm impressed by the deep feeling that he seems to have for the
bikes and vintage racing, and his desire to share these wonderful
bikes (and their riders) with their many fans.
Thanks to Rob and the rest of Team Obsolete for making it all
possible, and I'm hoping he can arrange for it to happen again next
year.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 16:51:20 -0400
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR Team Obsolete
I'll second Michael notions about the Honda six. I'd love to hear the
Guzzi V8 run. The last time I heard the six run, back in '95 it was in
the UK. Team Obsolete had taken the bikes there. Nobby Clark was tending
to things mechanical, and at one point Nobby fires up the six in the
pits and that wonderful sound of six tiny cylinders screaming at high
speed echoed all about the place. For those who'd like to see a video of
the six and other bikes that Team Obsolete runs, Geoff Duke's Duke Video
has a title "Multi-Cylinder Magic" that's worth checking out. Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 05:07:07 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Re: Laguna Seca - Exotic Bikes and Riders
Here's a message I thought I'd share with you all
Cheers,
Michael
**************
"ALISON HOLMES"
Michael my friend Geoff tells of the six that it was the one
machine you could'nt slipstrem as the noise scrambled your brain,
likely as in that era he wore the bonedome he still wears and a full
face helmet might help matters. Also the six had 250 racing miles in
it and then the crank would break, usually at the post TT race when
Honda would'nt bother to change the crank it would blow either in
practice or very early in the race. That their fours where almost
unburstable and the 5 a little jewel and if you've seen this lot
then you you just might have an inkling why he finds todays offerings
rather bland by comparison. Remember that in 67 Hailwood pulled a
107 lap from a standing start with the 296/6 and a couple of years
ago Roper dropped the ex Pasolini Benelli whilst 'attempting to pull
a ton lap' (his words). They where even better when ridden in full
anger.
Thanks Alison
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #20
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