Vintage Road Race Digest #1-10
VintRR-digest Saturday, March 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 001
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 18:32:43 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR test message
This is the first test message to the vintage roadrace list
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 09:26:09 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR test post
This is a test post to be received by Michael and Ellis.
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 18:18:11 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR CR72
I'm putting together a CR72 replica racer. I've heard tell of CR72
cylinder heads still floating around. Anyone know of any that might be
available, even just a loan so I could get a casting done from an
original. I've also heard of using the CB450 head. One of the downsides
of the CB450 head is that it is only a 2 valve design, anyone know of
any work in this direction. Thanks Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 15:29:14 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Ellis' post
Hello Ellis and Jay,
The CR72 head post came through fine at my end.
Ellis, you'll want to repost that once we get some more people on the
list. Maybe I'll announce the two lists that are up and working
tonight, and then I'll make periodic announcements to the list
members of how the subscription rate is coming along. You could
repost when there are more than the 3 of us.
I'll probably send a couple more posts, and see if I can force a
digest to be issued.
Jay, did you see the post OK?
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 15:30:43 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Ellis' post
Oh yes,
Are you guys getting a copy of your post sent back to you by the
list?
I am, but that may be due to my being the list owner. I didn't see
anything in the config stuff on if a copy goes back to the originator
or not.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #1
**************************
VintRR-digest Sunday, March 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 002
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 17:55:45 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR quoted text ratio
Hello Ellis,
I just got a bounce on your post - if there is more than three times
the amount of new text in quoted text in the message it will reject.
This, I presume, is to reduce the traffic on the list server by
kicking back the 3 pages of quoted text with "Me Too!" appended onto
the end.
I don't think I saw anything that let me configure that - let me take
that back. I just checked the configure and there isn't anything
that allows me to configure this. I guess I'd better put a loud
message in the intro so people are aware of the policy.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 21:55:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Elin Phinizy
Subject: Re: VintRR Ellis' post
>Hello Ellis and Jay,
>
>The CR72 head post came through fine at my end.
>
>Ellis, you'll want to repost that once we get some more people on the
>list. Maybe I'll announce the two lists that are up and working
>tonight, and then I'll make periodic announcements to the list
>members of how the subscription rate is coming along. You could
>repost when there are more than the 3 of us.
>
>I'll probably send a couple more posts, and see if I can force a
>digest to be issued.
>
>Jay, did you see the post OK?
>
>Cheers,
>Michael
>Michael Moore
>Euro Spares, SF CA
>Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
>Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide
>for constructors"
>http://www.eurospares.com
>AFM/AHRMA #364
Hello Michael and Ellis.
I am passing on this entire message so that you may see that it is going
out just fine.
Thank you for allowing R-5's as a cut off. As I am about to build a DS-7 to
be very mush like a Td -- eg without reed valves -- that should be ok too.
I can always stencil eyes or ivy on my helmet, too!
I will not delist myself and resubscribe in digest form.
Later
Jay
USCRA #47
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 22:27:30 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR Re: Cr72 and 450 head
Elin Phinizy wrote:
>
> Hello Ellis,
>
> You might try Todd Henning who was featured in this latest CW regarding his
> racing junkyard 450. He has done alot of work on those heads and may know
> the answer to your question.
>
> If you need his Tel # let me know. I think he Advertises in AHRMA Too.
>
> Later
> Jay
>
>
>
Hi Jay,
Thanks. I've chatted with Todd. He supplied the Nova 5-speed
transmission I'm using on my CR. I've also toyed with the idea of using
the Motoplat ignition Todd offers. For a start, I'm using an ET magneto,
similar to the type used on the orignal CRs. A couple of other things
I'm trying to get a handle on was that in the UK, a 4-valve head was
supposedly made, but so far I've only heard rumors, and no real facts...
yet. Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:00:18 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Re: Cr72 and 450 head
> the Motoplat ignition Todd offers. For a start, I'm using an ET magneto,
> similar to the type used on the orignal CRs. A couple of other things
> I'm trying to get a handle on was that in the UK, a 4-valve head was
> supposedly made, but so far I've only heard rumors, and no real facts...
> yet. Ellis
Hello Ellis,
Don't forget that my friend/tuner/mentor Craig Hanson knows what's
going on with those engines too.
Hanson Racing Technology
916-342-8049
Chico CA
He can lighten/rebalance your crank as well.
If you are considering total loss you could do a dual-RITA ignition
off the crank. Craig just did one of these for the new owner of the
special framed CB350 he designed/built in the early 1970s. They
aren't a inexpensive way to go but they are race-proven and have good
after sales support.
I don't recall a 4v 450 head. There was the Revolution head, which I
think was designed by Colin Lyster for some Americans, but I'm pretty
sure that was for the 350 engine. I could be wrong though, as it has
been awhile since I've looked at the article. It may have been too
late to fit into AHRMA rules.
The next time I visit my friend Peter I'll try to remember to
photograph the chain-drive CR head he has. It was a factory
prototype built from the gear-drive CR casting. Peter wants to build
it up on a CB77 bottom end for the street. He checked with Honda but
no one knew anything about the head.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:41:06 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Welcome
I've just added the 7th subscriber to the list.
I'll be interested to see how many subscribers we end up having. My
impression is that the BI, VJMC, EM, 2 strokes and Race lists weren't
really meeting the needs of those of us interested in vintage racing.
This list, as with all of them, will depend on list members' posts to
keep it afloat. As those of you familiar with me from other lists
know, I'm always glad to offer some advice on other people's
projects, and since I've got vintage Brit/Italian/Japanese racers I
can probably cover a fair amount of ground on the advice. I'm sure
that the rest of you (and the future subscribers) will be as helpful
as most of the people on other lists are.
REMEMBER: messages where quoted text is more than 3 times the new
text will bounce, so prune your posts accordingly.
After the list has been up and stable for a few days (and I get the
vintage-dirt list up and running) I'll contact the webmaster at
AHRMA and ask him to post something on their web site about the new
lists. Please feel free to let your friends who aren't on a list
know about this one. I'll also post to the different moto newsgroups
later this week.
Some of you may also be interested in the lightweight-roadrace list
when it comes on-line. While that will be open to modern 2 stroke
125s (basically bikes under 250cc, with the occasional RS125-framed
CR500 welcome as a "lightweight") I know that several of us have
little Honda/Gilera sub-250cc race bikes, and I intend to see that
the 125 two strokes don't get to be the sole beneficiaries of that
list.
Don't forget to send in an intro post to the list, so we can get to
know each other. Hopefully, there will be a chance for people from
some different, somewhat mutually exclusive, lists to get together in
this new forum.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 08:45:03 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Are you thrashing yet?
I can't be the only one who finds the start of a new race season
looming all to close on a not very distant horizon.
I'm shooting for the back-to-back AMA National at Laguna Seca (Team
Obsolete's "exhibition" vintage races) and the AHRMA National at
Willow Springs the following weekend. Laguna is 3 weeks away, and my
project today is to finish blasting the old paint off the Laverda
swing arm and trying to get several coats of new paint on it and the
frame. Unfortunately, an afternoon Easter dinner at the house of my
girlfriend's mother is planned, taking up the prime painting hours.
I want to take a bit more metal out of the front disc carrier, and
lighten up the footrest plates as well. With luck I'll be able to go
to my friend Craig's shop next weekend and assemble the engine and
reinstall it in the (hopefully by then) rolling chassis.
I'm not very optimistic about getting the bike on the dyno, to a
track session, or fitting the fairing before the first race. Oh
well, as long as it runs OK and doesn't have any problems.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:54:48 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR Are you thrashing yet?
I'm shooting for Ohio, maybe. I just got word from Pete (of Honda Racing
Services) that the CR72 frame was done, and he'd be shipping it out.
Biggest hold up for me right now is the head. I'll end up using the
SOHC, and then do what I can for the other head. Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 12:02:25 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR CR72 Ignition
Hi Michael,
I'd considered the RITA ignition system, but on the CR frame there's no
battery box. I'd either have to install a box below the seat or figure
out how to install one in the seat ala some of the K4 racers I've seen
in the UK.
I'll need to contact Craig about the crank, but the head is in my way
(again). I've designed the gear train to drive the cams, and spent some
time machining up a new center pin. I'm almost down to building two
different cranks one for the (when I get it) CR set up, and one for the
SOHC head.
Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 12:16:12 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR Introduction (a bit long winded)
I'm doing this a little backwards, but by way of introduction, my name
is Ellis Holman. I'm located in Indianapolis, Ind. I'm currently working
on as close a replica of a CR72 as I can make. This project's been in
flight since May of last year. The frame is a CR72 replica supplied by
Peter Rhodes of Honda Racing Services in the UK. Peter has also provided
many of the running gear bits such as the CR72 front brake and fairing.
Pete Keyte also in the UK has hammered out the alloy CR72 tank and seat.
Swarbrick (also in the UK) as put together a set of CR72 exhausts for
me, which Pete Rhodes fitted to his frame.
The engine is based on a set of 1961 CB77 cases (the type with the
breather on the top of the cases). Todd Henning's supplied the Nova
5-speed transmission. I used a modified set of EBC clutch disks
originally intended for the CB650, and CB500 (four) clutch springs to
transmit the power to the wheels. I've obtained a set of CYB rims for
the wheels. Poweroll's done the 347cc pistons and sleaves. I've found a
pair of original sand cast 31mm CR Keihins and a Megacycle cam with S&W
springs, keepers, and followers. So that's a quick trip around the CR
that I'm trying to build. Hopefully it will look and run good. Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:09:44 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR CR72 Ignition and wheels
> Hi Michael,
> I'd considered the RITA ignition system, but on the CR frame there's no
> battery box. I'd either have to install a box below the seat or figure
> out how to install one in the seat ala some of the K4 racers I've seen
> in the UK.
Hello Ellis,
The RITA doesn't have to have a battery. If you get 12v DC from your
alternator you can use a 2MC capacitor in place of the battery.
However, the jettisoning the alternator would save some rotating
weight, and allow you to run the RITA off the crankshaft instead of
off the cam. I think that Peter's CRs have a gear-driven points
housing on the left side case (with the points running at half crank
speed).
> I'll need to contact Craig about the crank, but the head is in my way
> (again). I've designed the gear train to drive the cams, and spent some
> time machining up a new center pin. I'm almost down to building two
> different cranks one for the (when I get it) CR set up, and one for the
> SOHC head.
I'm amazed at the size of your project. I've been fiddling (off and
on) with a DOHC 2 valve head for one of my S90 projects (I've got the
valves, springs and tappets, and done some rough sketches), but that
would still retain the standard chain drive.
Are you using the CB77 rear wheel? It isn't particularly light
weight (though you can make aluminum center bearing spacers, mill
away a lot of the backing plate, drill holes in the webs of the brake
shoes, drill a hole down the middle of the brake cam shafts, etc) and
you might want to consider going to a later SLS rear brake from a
CB350 or similar model. I don't think you'll really need a huge rear
brake even on a vintage roadracer, esp. if you get some good linings
installed.
Be sure to send me pictures of all of the interesting bits so that I
can post them on the graphics page on my web site.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:25:45 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR My introduction
I'd guess that most of you are already familiar with me from the 11
lists I'm on (I just couldn't get enough email, so had to start
another 5), but here is a bit of an intro for those who haven't had
the pleasure of my acquaintance.
My name is Michael Moore, I'm 43, and I live near the beach in San
Francisco (where the rust never stops). I started racing MX in 1971,
and road racing (on a Yamaha TT500) in 1977.
My vintage road racing rides have included:
Long-stroke 500cc Garden Gate Manx Norton (thanks to Fred Mork)
250 narrow case Ducati single (thanks to Michael Green, WCBR)
350 narrow case Ducati single (thanks to Fred Mork)
175 Honda sloper twin (thanks to Henry Deaton)
216 Honda sloper twin (in my own Seeley MK4-style frame)
750 SF2 Laverda (in my own frame)
I've besides the Honda and Laverda, I've got Guzzis, a Triumph
Trident, unit BSA singles, Matchless singles, a Rotax 560 dirt bike,
EX250 Kawasaki street and race bikes, GS450 Suzuki race bike, S90 and
160 Hondas, a Can Am 250 single road racer, and possibly another
couple (around 20 total) that I can't recall at this time.
I'm in the process of getting the Laverda ready for this season, and
think I'll probably try to put the 216 Honda back together in time for
the AHRMA race at Sears Point in August.
If you aren't familiar with my web site it is worth a visit:
http://www.eurospares.com
You'll find lots of photos of interesting modern and vintage bikes,
articles, stuff, stuff and more stuff.
If you've got a really interesting race bike, particularly with a
custom frame, I'd be glad to consider adding a picture of it to the
web site.
If you have any questions, either chassis or engine let me know.
Also, I have an extensive collection of motorcycle magazines, dating
from the early 1960s. If you need something researched (and aren't in
a tearing hurry) I'll see what I can find out.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:29:01 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Something curious
I just had my intro message bounced by the list because, it appears,
I used the word "subscr---" in it. The bounce said something about
"that word" in line two, so I'm guessing that it scanned the message
for key words and then tried to process it as a list command.
You might wish to avoid using the word "subscri--" in any of your
posts, just in case this isn't some wierd fluke.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 21:22:22 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR CR72 Ignition and wheels (long post)
> The RITA doesn't have to have a battery. If you get 12v DC from your
> alternator you can use a 2MC capacitor in place of the battery.
> However, the jettisoning the alternator would save some rotating
> weight, and allow you to run the RITA off the crankshaft instead of
> off the cam. I think that Peter's CRs have a gear-driven points
> housing on the left side case (with the points running at half crank
> speed).
Hi Michael,
The ET mag generates AC voltage from about 13.5 volts to about 18 volts.
I could wire in a retifier, and then convert ac/dc, but I don't have
anything to step down and stablize the voltage. I'm using
a huge pair of Kokusan AC coils. They're more or less insensitive to the
voltage changes. I'm thinking of using the same CR setup that would
replace the oil filter. That's approximately where the CR points live.
>
> I'm amazed at the size of your project. I've been fiddling (off and
> on) with a DOHC 2 valve head for one of my S90 projects (I've got the
> valves, springs and tappets, and done some rough sketches), but that
> would still retain the standard chain drive.
Yes, well the gear drive is a big headache to get set up properly, but
at racing engine speeds, the gear train is a lot more reliable than a
chain. The SOHC head that I've built uses a Kawasaki Z1 idler gear for
the tensioner roller, and an hand turned aluminum wheel for the center
tensioner. I used an "endless" CB750 cam chain. On the dyno that
combination is stable up to about 13,000 RPM. with about 500 RPM safety
zone. I'd REALLY rather have a head such as your friend Peter has, but
haven't been able to come up with the needed mechanical drawings. I have
a company that can cast me a one shot deal for 2K (not bad considering).
Given volume (25 or so) production, that cost could be a lot less. But
since I don't have any way (seemingly) to get the drawings set up, I
have to go about it the way I am. Oh well.....
> Are you using the CB77 rear wheel? It isn't particularly light
> weight (though you can make aluminum center bearing spacers, mill
> away a lot of the backing plate, drill holes in the webs of the brake
> shoes, drill a hole down the middle of the brake cam shafts, etc) and
> you might want to consider going to a later SLS rear brake from a
> CB350 or similar model.
My orginal design used the Suzuki GT380 rear brake, mostly because I had
one handy and it was cable operated. I've since obtained a CR72
rear hub assebly. Both front and rear brakes are using Ferodo "Green"
linings.
All the spacers in the rear assembly have been turned up in T6066T6
aluminum. I finally bought a Grizzly 9 X 19 lathe to turn up the bits
and pieces I need. I've also turned swing arm bushings from Oilite, so
that the awful plastic bits are gone.
> Be sure to send me pictures of all of the interesting bits so that I
> can post them on the graphics page on my web site.
>
I've got some early pictures, but unfortunately they're somewhat poorly
focused. It was COLD that day, I was in a bit of a hurry. Next batch
will be better, and maybe even usable.
Some of the side issues, rather than just using the CL type sheet metal
block to cover the starter motor removal, I built some blocks out of
T6066T6 aluminium. I MIGged the blocks in over the old starter drive
areas, and filled in the starter mounting holes as well. I've got the
right side cover sitting in a jig right now. The Nova 5-speed deletes
the kickstart shaft. After fitting/grinding the
CB77 shift forks to fit the Nova shift drum, and a little shift shaft
modification the transmission is in good shape. I'm using EBC CB650
clutch plates (with a little modification) and CB500 four clutch springs
to transmitt the power. I really rather have a dry clutch but couldn't
come up with good way to convert the existing clutch
I'm in the process of filling in and grinding down the kick start shaft
bushing area on the right hand cover. I built up an RC style catch tank
based on scaled up pictures from Mick Wollett's "Honda Racers in the
Golden Age". The return line was drilled and MIGged into the upper
engine case just aft of the oil filler/dip stick. I found a PVC valve
for the Ford Escort was just perfect for the breather line. I contacted
KTT Services in Austrailia for a Smiths ATRC tachometer, same as the
CR's used, 1,000 to 12,000 RPM registration. The forks tubes are
replicated RC units, that Forking by Frank built in chrome moly for me.
The lowers are modified CB parts to appear like the CR parts. Pete
Rhodes did a set of tapered rollerbearings for the headstock for me, and
I'm calibrating a set of Konis now for the expected weight of the bike
and me. I'm using Koni springs, but may end up with S&W because there's
a bit more lattitude. Its looking like I'll end up with a 130# spring.
Ellis
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #2
**************************
VintRR-digest Monday, March 31 1997 Volume 01 : Number 003
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:52:03 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Bringing you up to date - part 1 of digest 1
There have been enough people sign on since these posts were made
that I've decided to send the digest back to the list (in two parts)
to bring everyone up to speed. I apologize to the 2 or 3 folks on
digest mode for making you plow through the same messages twice, but
it seems like the right thing to do - the greatest good for the
greatest number kind of thing. I have had some requests for the
earlier posts. If I get a bunch of new people between now and the
next digest I'll probably send digest 3 out to the regular list too.
After that everyone will be on their own until I figure out how to
access the archived messages.
Thanks - Michael
****************
VintRR-digest Sunday, March 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 002
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 22:27:30 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR Re: Cr72 and 450 head
Elin Phinizy wrote:
>
> Hello Ellis,
>
> You might try Todd Henning who was featured in this latest CW regarding his
> racing junkyard 450. He has done alot of work on those heads and may know
> the answer to your question.
>
> If you need his Tel # let me know. I think he Advertises in AHRMA Too.
>
> Later
> Jay
>
>
>
Hi Jay,
Thanks. I've chatted with Todd. He supplied the Nova 5-speed
transmission I'm using on my CR. I've also toyed with the idea of using
the Motoplat ignition Todd offers. For a start, I'm using an ET magneto,
similar to the type used on the orignal CRs. A couple of other things
I'm trying to get a handle on was that in the UK, a 4-valve head was
supposedly made, but so far I've only heard rumors, and no real facts...
yet. Ellis
- ------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:00:18 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Re: Cr72 and 450 head
> the Motoplat ignition Todd offers. For a start, I'm using an ET magneto,
> similar to the type used on the orignal CRs. A couple of other things
> I'm trying to get a handle on was that in the UK, a 4-valve head was
> supposedly made, but so far I've only heard rumors, and no real facts...
> yet. Ellis
Hello Ellis,
Don't forget that my friend/tuner/mentor Craig Hanson knows what's
going on with those engines too.
Hanson Racing Technology
916-342-8049
Chico CA
He can lighten/rebalance your crank as well.
If you are considering total loss you could do a dual-RITA ignition
off the crank. Craig just did one of these for the new owner of the
special framed CB350 he designed/built in the early 1970s. They
aren't a inexpensive way to go but they are race-proven and have good
after sales support.
I don't recall a 4v 450 head. There was the Revolution head, which I
think was designed by Colin Lyster for some Americans, but I'm pretty
sure that was for the 350 engine. I could be wrong though, as it has
been awhile since I've looked at the article. It may have been too
late to fit into AHRMA rules.
The next time I visit my friend Peter I'll try to remember to
photograph the chain-drive CR head he has. It was a factory
prototype built from the gear-drive CR casting. Peter wants to build
it up on a CB77 bottom end for the street. He checked with Honda but
no one knew anything about the head.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
- ------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:41:06 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Welcome
I've just added the 7th subscriber to the list.
I'll be interested to see how many subscribers we end up having. My
impression is that the BI, VJMC, EM, 2 strokes and Race lists weren't
really meeting the needs of those of us interested in vintage racing.
This list, as with all of them, will depend on list members' posts to
keep it afloat. As those of you familiar with me from other lists
know, I'm always glad to offer some advice on other people's
projects, and since I've got vintage Brit/Italian/Japanese racers I
can probably cover a fair amount of ground on the advice. I'm sure
that the rest of you (and the future subscribers) will be as helpful
as most of the people on other lists are.
REMEMBER: messages where quoted text is more than 3 times the new
text will bounce, so prune your posts accordingly.
After the list has been up and stable for a few days (and I get the
vintage-dirt list up and running) I'll contact the webmaster at
AHRMA and ask him to post something on their web site about the new
lists. Please feel free to let your friends who aren't on a list
know about this one. I'll also post to the different moto newsgroups
later this week.
Some of you may also be interested in the lightweight-roadrace list
when it comes on-line. While that will be open to modern 2 stroke
125s (basically bikes under 250cc, with the occasional RS125-framed
CR500 welcome as a "lightweight") I know that several of us have
little Honda/Gilera sub-250cc race bikes, and I intend to see that
the 125 two strokes don't get to be the sole beneficiaries of that
list.
Don't forget to send in an intro post to the list, so we can get to
know each other. Hopefully, there will be a chance for people from
some different, somewhat mutually exclusive, lists to get together in
this new forum.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
- ------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 08:45:03 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Are you thrashing yet?
I can't be the only one who finds the start of a new race season
looming all to close on a not very distant horizon.
I'm shooting for the back-to-back AMA National at Laguna Seca (Team
Obsolete's "exhibition" vintage races) and the AHRMA National at
Willow Springs the following weekend. Laguna is 3 weeks away, and my
project today is to finish blasting the old paint off the Laverda
swing arm and trying to get several coats of new paint on it and the
frame. Unfortunately, an afternoon Easter dinner at the house of my
girlfriend's mother is planned, taking up the prime painting hours.
I want to take a bit more metal out of the front disc carrier, and
lighten up the footrest plates as well. With luck I'll be able to go
to my friend Craig's shop next weekend and assemble the engine and
reinstall it in the (hopefully by then) rolling chassis.
I'm not very optimistic about getting the bike on the dyno, to a
track session, or fitting the fairing before the first race. Oh
well, as long as it runs OK and doesn't have any problems.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
- ------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:54:48 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR Are you thrashing yet?
I'm shooting for Ohio, maybe. I just got word from Pete (of Honda Racing
Services) that the CR72 frame was done, and he'd be shipping it out.
Biggest hold up for me right now is the head. I'll end up using the
SOHC, and then do what I can for the other head. Ellis
- ------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 12:02:25 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR CR72 Ignition
Hi Michael,
I'd considered the RITA ignition system, but on the CR frame there's no
battery box. I'd either have to install a box below the seat or figure
out how to install one in the seat ala some of the K4 racers I've seen
in the UK.
I'll need to contact Craig about the crank, but the head is in my way
(again). I've designed the gear train to drive the cams, and spent some
time machining up a new center pin. I'm almost down to building two
different cranks one for the (when I get it) CR set up, and one for the
SOHC head.
Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:58:33 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Bringing you up to date - part 2 of digest 2
part 2 of Digest 1
- ------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 12:16:12 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR Introduction (a bit long winded)
I'm doing this a little backwards, but by way of introduction, my name
is Ellis Holman. I'm located in Indianapolis, Ind. I'm currently working
on as close a replica of a CR72 as I can make. This project's been in
flight since May of last year. The frame is a CR72 replica supplied by
Peter Rhodes of Honda Racing Services in the UK. Peter has also provided
many of the running gear bits such as the CR72 front brake and fairing.
Pete Keyte also in the UK has hammered out the alloy CR72 tank and seat.
Swarbrick (also in the UK) as put together a set of CR72 exhausts for
me, which Pete Rhodes fitted to his frame.
The engine is based on a set of 1961 CB77 cases (the type with the
breather on the top of the cases). Todd Henning's supplied the Nova
5-speed transmission. I used a modified set of EBC clutch disks
originally intended for the CB650, and CB500 (four) clutch springs to
transmit the power to the wheels. I've obtained a set of CYB rims for
the wheels. Poweroll's done the 347cc pistons and sleaves. I've found a
pair of original sand cast 31mm CR Keihins and a Megacycle cam with S&W
springs, keepers, and followers. So that's a quick trip around the CR
that I'm trying to build. Hopefully it will look and run good. Ellis
- ------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:09:44 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR CR72 Ignition and wheels
> Hi Michael,
> I'd considered the RITA ignition system, but on the CR frame there's no
> battery box. I'd either have to install a box below the seat or figure
> out how to install one in the seat ala some of the K4 racers I've seen
> in the UK.
Hello Ellis,
The RITA doesn't have to have a battery. If you get 12v DC from your
alternator you can use a 2MC capacitor in place of the battery.
However, the jettisoning the alternator would save some rotating
weight, and allow you to run the RITA off the crankshaft instead of
off the cam. I think that Peter's CRs have a gear-driven points
housing on the left side case (with the points running at half crank
speed).
> I'll need to contact Craig about the crank, but the head is in my way
> (again). I've designed the gear train to drive the cams, and spent some
> time machining up a new center pin. I'm almost down to building two
> different cranks one for the (when I get it) CR set up, and one for the
> SOHC head.
I'm amazed at the size of your project. I've been fiddling (off and
on) with a DOHC 2 valve head for one of my S90 projects (I've got the
valves, springs and tappets, and done some rough sketches), but that
would still retain the standard chain drive.
Are you using the CB77 rear wheel? It isn't particularly light
weight (though you can make aluminum center bearing spacers, mill
away a lot of the backing plate, drill holes in the webs of the brake
shoes, drill a hole down the middle of the brake cam shafts, etc) and
you might want to consider going to a later SLS rear brake from a
CB350 or similar model. I don't think you'll really need a huge rear
brake even on a vintage roadracer, esp. if you get some good linings
installed.
Be sure to send me pictures of all of the interesting bits so that I
can post them on the graphics page on my web site.
Cheers,
Michael
- -------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:25:45 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR My introduction
I'd guess that most of you are already familiar with me from the 11
lists I'm on (I just couldn't get enough email, so had to start
another 5), but here is a bit of an intro for those who haven't had
the pleasure of my acquaintance.
My name is Michael Moore, I'm 43, and I live near the beach in San
Francisco (where the rust never stops). I started racing MX in 1971,
and road racing (on a Yamaha TT500) in 1977.
My vintage road racing rides have included:
Long-stroke 500cc Garden Gate Manx Norton (thanks to Fred Mork)
250 narrow case Ducati single (thanks to Michael Green, WCBR)
350 narrow case Ducati single (thanks to Fred Mork)
175 Honda sloper twin (thanks to Henry Deaton)
216 Honda sloper twin (in my own Seeley MK4-style frame)
750 SF2 Laverda (in my own frame)
I've besides the Honda and Laverda, I've got Guzzis, a Triumph
Trident, unit BSA singles, Matchless singles, a Rotax 560 dirt bike,
EX250 Kawasaki street and race bikes, GS450 Suzuki race bike, S90 and
160 Hondas, a Can Am 250 single road racer, and possibly another
couple (around 20 total) that I can't recall at this time.
I'm in the process of getting the Laverda ready for this season, and
think I'll probably try to put the 216 Honda back together in time for
the AHRMA race at Sears Point in August.
If you aren't familiar with my web site it is worth a visit:
http://www.eurospares.com
You'll find lots of photos of interesting modern and vintage bikes,
articles, stuff, stuff and more stuff.
If you've got a really interesting race bike, particularly with a
custom frame, I'd be glad to consider adding a picture of it to the
web site.
If you have any questions, either chassis or engine let me know.
Also, I have an extensive collection of motorcycle magazines, dating
from the early 1960s. If you need something researched (and aren't in
a tearing hurry) I'll see what I can find out.
Cheers,
Michael
- ------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 20:00:56 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Bringing you up to date - part 3 of digest 2
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:29:01 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Something curious
I just had my intro message bounced by the list because, it appears,
I used the word "subscr---" in it. The bounce said something about
"that word" in line two, so I'm guessing that it scanned the message
for key words and then tried to process it as a list command.
You might wish to avoid using the word "subscri--" in any of your
posts, just in case this isn't some wierd fluke.
Cheers,
Michael
- ------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 21:22:22 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR CR72 Ignition and wheels (long post)
> The RITA doesn't have to have a battery. If you get 12v DC from your
> alternator you can use a 2MC capacitor in place of the battery.
> However, the jettisoning the alternator would save some rotating
> weight, and allow you to run the RITA off the crankshaft instead of
> off the cam. I think that Peter's CRs have a gear-driven points
> housing on the left side case (with the points running at half crank
> speed).
Hi Michael,
The ET mag generates AC voltage from about 13.5 volts to about 18 volts.
I could wire in a retifier, and then convert ac/dc, but I don't have
anything to step down and stablize the voltage. I'm using
a huge pair of Kokusan AC coils. They're more or less insensitive to the
voltage changes. I'm thinking of using the same CR setup that would
replace the oil filter. That's approximately where the CR points live.
>
> I'm amazed at the size of your project. I've been fiddling (off and
> on) with a DOHC 2 valve head for one of my S90 projects (I've got the
> valves, springs and tappets, and done some rough sketches), but that
> would still retain the standard chain drive.
Yes, well the gear drive is a big headache to get set up properly, but
at racing engine speeds, the gear train is a lot more reliable than a
chain. The SOHC head that I've built uses a Kawasaki Z1 idler gear for
the tensioner roller, and an hand turned aluminum wheel for the center
tensioner. I used an "endless" CB750 cam chain. On the dyno that
combination is stable up to about 13,000 RPM. with about 500 RPM safety
zone. I'd REALLY rather have a head such as your friend Peter has, but
haven't been able to come up with the needed mechanical drawings. I have
a company that can cast me a one shot deal for 2K (not bad considering).
Given volume (25 or so) production, that cost could be a lot less. But
since I don't have any way (seemingly) to get the drawings set up, I
have to go about it the way I am. Oh well.....
> Are you using the CB77 rear wheel? It isn't particularly light
> weight (though you can make aluminum center bearing spacers, mill
> away a lot of the backing plate, drill holes in the webs of the brake
> shoes, drill a hole down the middle of the brake cam shafts, etc) and
> you might want to consider going to a later SLS rear brake from a
> CB350 or similar model.
My orginal design used the Suzuki GT380 rear brake, mostly because I had
one handy and it was cable operated. I've since obtained a CR72
rear hub assebly. Both front and rear brakes are using Ferodo "Green"
linings.
All the spacers in the rear assembly have been turned up in T6066T6
aluminum. I finally bought a Grizzly 9 X 19 lathe to turn up the bits
and pieces I need. I've also turned swing arm bushings from Oilite, so
that the awful plastic bits are gone.
> Be sure to send me pictures of all of the interesting bits so that I
> can post them on the graphics page on my web site.
>
I've got some early pictures, but unfortunately they're somewhat poorly
focused. It was COLD that day, I was in a bit of a hurry. Next batch
will be better, and maybe even usable.
Some of the side issues, rather than just using the CL type sheet metal
block to cover the starter motor removal, I built some blocks out of
T6066T6 aluminium. I MIGged the blocks in over the old starter drive
areas, and filled in the starter mounting holes as well. I've got the
right side cover sitting in a jig right now. The Nova 5-speed deletes
the kickstart shaft. After fitting/grinding the
CB77 shift forks to fit the Nova shift drum, and a little shift shaft
modification the transmission is in good shape. I'm using EBC CB650
clutch plates (with a little modification) and CB500 four clutch springs
to transmitt the power. I really rather have a dry clutch but couldn't
come up with good way to convert the existing clutch
I'm in the process of filling in and grinding down the kick start shaft
bushing area on the right hand cover. I built up an RC style catch tank
based on scaled up pictures from Mick Wollett's "Honda Racers in the
Golden Age". The return line was drilled and MIGged into the upper
engine case just aft of the oil filler/dip stick. I found a PVC valve
for the Ford Escort was just perfect for the breather line. I contacted
KTT Services in Austrailia for a Smiths ATRC tachometer, same as the
CR's used, 1,000 to 12,000 RPM registration. The forks tubes are
replicated RC units, that Forking by Frank built in chrome moly for me.
The lowers are modified CB parts to appear like the CR parts. Pete
Rhodes did a set of tapered rollerbearings for the headstock for me, and
I'm calibrating a set of Konis now for the expected weight of the bike
and me. I'm using Koni springs, but may end up with S&W because there's
a bit more lattitude. Its looking like I'll end up with a 130# spring.
Ellis
- ------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #2
**************************
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 20:13:56 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR CR72 Ignition and wheels (long post)
> The ET mag generates AC voltage from about 13.5 volts to about 18 volts.
> I could wire in a retifier, and then convert ac/dc, but I don't have
> anything to step down and stablize the voltage. I'm using
> a huge pair of Kokusan AC coils. They're more or less insensitive to the
> voltage changes. I'm thinking of using the same CR setup that would
> replace the oil filter. That's approximately where the CR points live.
Hello Ellis,
You can route the AC into a Voltpak and have nicely controlled DC.
$75 and I've got it in stock if you are interested. The RITA needs
3-4 ohm primary resistance on the coils - I have no idea what your
coils are like.
> chain. The SOHC head that I've built uses a Kawasaki Z1 idler gear for
> the tensioner roller, and an hand turned aluminum wheel for the center
The Z1 idler sprocket is what I use on the cam chain tensioner on the
CR216, and it fits into a standard CB72/77 tensioner as well.
> a company that can cast me a one shot deal for 2K (not bad considering).
> Given volume (25 or so) production, that cost could be a lot less. But
You could blow up a lot of engines with that many heads!
> All the spacers in the rear assembly have been turned up in T6066T6
> aluminum. I finally bought a Grizzly 9 X 19 lathe to turn up the bits
> and pieces I need. I've also turned swing arm bushings from Oilite, so
> that the awful plastic bits are gone.
Instead of the Oilite get a stick of SAE 660 bearing bronze. It is
much sturdier than the Oilite, and fairly nice to machine. You'll
get a better bushing from it, and it can be ordered from MSC, IPS,
bearing houses, etc.
> CR's used, 1,000 to 12,000 RPM registration. The forks tubes are
> replicated RC units, that Forking by Frank built in chrome moly for me.
How amenable are F by F to switching materials, and did they hard
chrome instead of their standard "show chrome" which has a poor
reputation for longevity? Craig and I thought about doing a batch of
heat treated hard-chromed thin wall chrome moly stanchion tubes for
Maico dirtbikes, as the stockers always bend and are very thick wall
(and heavy). It was one of those projects where the product could
probably be sold if we weren't in a hurry, but we didn't have the
time or money to tie up in the project.
> The lowers are modified CB parts to appear like the CR parts. Pete
> Rhodes did a set of tapered rollerbearings for the headstock for me, and
> I'm calibrating a set of Konis now for the expected weight of the bike
> and me. I'm using Koni springs, but may end up with S&W because there's
> a bit more lattitude. Its looking like I'll end up with a 130# spring.
That spring is WAY to stiff. I'm running about a 40-80 progressive
on the Laverda, which at 330# shouldn't be too much lighter than your
bike. You need to get a copy of Bradley's book so that you can
calculate what you actually need instead of taking salesmen's
estimates. I use a (as I recall) 45# straight spring on the CR216.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 14:25:55 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR CR72 Ignition and wheels (long post)
Hi Michael,
>
> You can route the AC into a Voltpak and have nicely controlled DC.
> $75 and I've got it in stock if you are interested. The RITA needs
> 3-4 ohm primary resistance on the coils - I have no idea what your
> coils are like.
I'm using an automotive style ballast resister in line with the coils,
by measure they're something like 8-10 ohms. I'll give the RITA setup
some consideration.
> The Z1 idler sprocket is what I use on the cam chain tensioner on the
> CR216, and it fits into a standard CB72/77 tensioner as well.
Yes the Z1 idler works well, and you don't have to worry about it
self-destructing, and taking the cam chain with it.
>
> You could blow up a lot of engines with that many heads!
True, and given my luck with Murphy, I'd need every one of them!
>
> Instead of the Oilite get a stick of SAE 660 bearing bronze. It is
> much sturdier than the Oilite, and fairly nice to machine. You'll
> get a better bushing from it, and it can be ordered from MSC, IPS,
> bearing houses, etc.
OK I'll give the 660 bearing bronze a try. I had a big chunk of the
Oilite lying on the bench and I turned a bunch of the things up. Nice
thing about the Grizzly lathe is once you've set it up, it's a snap to
machine a run of the things. I bought a series of carbide tools, and
I've yet to find anything hard enough to slow 'em down. I
did cut the Oilite to stock specs, and left the steel sleeves in. Should
I cut the 660 larger and dump the steel sleeves? or leave 'em
in like I did the Oilite?
>
> How amenable are F by F to switching materials, and did they hard
> chrome instead of their standard "show chrome" which has a poor
> reputation for longevity? Craig and I thought about doing a batch of
> heat treated hard-chromed thin wall chrome moly stanchion tubes for
> Maico dirtbikes, as the stockers always bend and are very thick wall
> (and heavy). It was one of those projects where the product could
> probably be sold if we weren't in a hurry, but we didn't have the
> time or money to tie up in the project.
>
Not too. I had to do some fast talking to get the job done. They didn't
seem to understand hard chrome, but I finally got what I wanted. The
chome had to be done a couple of times, until they got it right. The
first time it was rough and would have chewed up seals in no time.
Second time, they got the finsh right, but the diameter was just big
enough that the bushings didn't fit properly. Third time was the charm.
Lots of patience is called for, I don't recommend it for the faint of
heart.
> That spring is WAY to stiff. I'm running about a 40-80 progressive
> on the Laverda, which at 330# shouldn't be too much lighter than your
> bike. You need to get a copy of Bradley's book so that you can
> calculate what you actually need instead of taking salesmen's
> estimates. I use a (as I recall) 45# straight spring on the CR216.
You're using a 40/80 progressive on the rear? Hmmm...
Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:34:56 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR CR72 Ignition and wheels (long post)
> OK I'll give the 660 bearing bronze a try. I had a big chunk of the
> Oilite lying on the bench and I turned a bunch of the things up. Nice
> thing about the Grizzly lathe is once you've set it up, it's a snap to
> machine a run of the things. I bought a series of carbide tools, and
> I've yet to find anything hard enough to slow 'em down. I
Hello Ellis,
If you haven't already bought one, let me STRONGLY urge you to buy a
quick change toolpost for the lathe. It is SO wonderful, you can't
imagine. When I think of the years I messed with the stupid forged
tool holders putting off spending $300 I could kick myself (no
volunteers please!) Words practically fail me . . .
> did cut the Oilite to stock specs, and left the steel sleeves in. Should
> I cut the 660 larger and dump the steel sleeves? or leave 'em
> in like I did the Oilite?
I'd leave the sleeves in. Part of the reason they are there (besides
giving a replaceable bearing surface) is to increase the surface
area. The swing arm pivot bolt is just too small. Ducati has the
right idea with an approx 20-25mm hollow tubular swing arm pivot.
With that (esp. if the shaft is hard-chromed) you can run the bearing
directly on the shaft and have a very stout, light, and durable
bearing.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:33:54 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR CR72 Ignition and wheels (long post)
> If you haven't already bought one, let me STRONGLY urge you to buy a
> quick change toolpost for the lathe. It is SO wonderful, you can't
> imagine. When I think of the years I messed with the stupid forged
> tool holders putting off spending $300 I could kick myself (no
> volunteers please!) Words practically fail me . . .
>
Hi Michael,
That's one of the nice things about the Grizzly 9 X 19 lathe. It came
with a four tool cutting head, both 3 and 4 jaw chucks, live and dead
centers. For only $800 this thing was a steal!
>
> I'd leave the sleeves in. Part of the reason they are there (besides
> giving a replaceable bearing surface) is to increase the surface
> area. The swing arm pivot bolt is just too small. Ducati has the
> right idea with an approx 20-25mm hollow tubular swing arm pivot.
> With that (esp. if the shaft is hard-chromed) you can run the bearing
> directly on the shaft and have a very stout, light, and durable
> bearing.
>
OK, I'll run up a set of bearings this evening and see how they look.
I've got some stainless steel that I thought about re-cutting the
sleeves in. I've polished the original sleeves, and they are very
smooth, but there is some minor rust pitting. If I'm leaving the
sleeves, they might as well be right.
Know anybody that might want a CBX head in trade for some intresting
CB77 goodies. I'd started with two of them to build the 4 valve head
and found I only needed one.
Ellis
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #3
**************************
VintRR-digest Tuesday, April 1 1997 Volume 01 : Number 004
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 18:37:06 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR The other lists are on-line
The other lists I've started are up and seem to be working OK.
The first two mailing lists, for vintage roadracing and Suzuki GS
four-stroke twins are getting reasonable interest so far, though the
vintage roadracing is doing better by a factor of about 6:1 (not
surprisingly).
The three other lists are:
vintage-dirt: for the pre-75 vintage dirt bikes - MX, enduro,
observed trials, dirt track, playbikes, etc. I'd like to avoid the
later Evolution long travel bikes at this time.
lightweight-roadrace: vintage and modern sub-250cc roadracers.
I've been requested to allow the odd CR500-engined RS125 to hang out
here too, and that seems OK to me. I'm trying to shoot for the
smaller bikes here, or the bikes that race against them. For example,
four-stroke singles/twins of 250cc are legal in the AFM 125GP class
(F3), so they are an exception to the sub-250cc ideal.
mc-chassis-design: a list for the technically oriented, interested in
designing/building/modifying frames, suspension, wheels, brakes,
aerodynamics etc. I guess if someone wants to post about building a
chopper frame that would be OK, though I personally don't have much
interest in it. Might learn a good fabrication tip from them though,
and maybe we can advise the chap/ette on how to get the darn thing to
handle a little better. FF bikes are welcome, though there is already
a good FF list available. Alternative front-ends and sidecars would
be interesting too.
To subscribe to them in individual message mode send a message to:
majordomo@list.sirius.com
The message body should say (and please just one list per message):
subscribe vintage-roadrace youremailaddress@provider
subscribe suzuki-gs-twin youremailaddress@provider
subscribe mc-chassis-design youremailaddress@provider
subscribe lightweight-roadrace youremailaddress@provider
subscribe vintage-dirt youremailaddress@provider
To subscribe in digest mode (which should be issued every day) make
the message say:
subscribe vintage-roadrace-digest youremailaddress@provider
subscribe suzuki-gs-twin-digest youremailaddress@provider
subscribe mc-chassis-design-digest youremailaddress@provider
subscribe lightweight-roadrace-digest youremailaddress@provider
subscribe vintage-dirt-digest youremailaddress@provider
Sirius is supposed to handle the archiving of messages, and claim that
they will eventually have them available through a web page. I'm not
clear yet on how to access the archived messages, but should find out
in a couple of days. I'll post this information to the list.
The lists are set up so that I have to approve the subscription via a
message to majordomo. I was told that this should help cut down the
spam messages to the lists. Unsubscribes should work without any
intervention from me. I'll try to get to everyone's subscriptions
quickly, but keep in mind that I'm in San Francisco and that I'm in
the midst of trying to get my Laverda put together to race in 3 weeks.
I'll check my email several times each day, but you may have a bit of
a time delay if the message arrives when I'm not able to get to the PC
(such as when I'm at work during the week).
A word of warning: this info is in the introduction file you should
get but I'll repeat it anyway. My provider has configured the list
software to reject any message where the quoted/included text is more
than THREE times the new text. So you'll have to prune the old
message text if you expect your message to not bounce. I have no say
in this policy - but think it might be kind of pleasant.
After you are notified that you have been subscribed, please send a
introductory message to the list, so that people can find out who is
on it.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:10:46 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Membership stats
FYI,
As of 9 PM PST there are:
VintRR 57
VintDirt 6
GSTwin 9
LtWtRR 5
MC-Chassis 12
people signed up so far (regular and digest).
Once things have trickled down a bit from the members from the lists
I'm on I'll post info to the newsgroups.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:46:41 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR CBX head on a CB77
Hello Ellis,
How about sharing some details of how closely the CBX head matched up
to the CB77 lower end? Are you having to do a lot of stud moving
about, were the bore centers at all close, etc?
As an aside, I think that stuff like this was probably not of that
much interest to the majority of the VJMC list members. I'll have to
admit that the pleas for stock tank badge sources etc are high on my
list of delete-before-reading posts. To each his own - at least
we've got a spot for this stuff now.
So where are all the posts on cool British/German/Italian race bike
projects?
I know of at least one ex-factory Gilera single (at least it was
once in the Gilera factory) being sized up for a big bore. Surely
there must be other interesting projects gathering momentum (as
opposed to many of mine that are gathering dust/rust).
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 09:01:49 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR CBX head on a CB77
> How about sharing some details of how closely the CBX head matched up
> to the CB77 lower end? Are you having to do a lot of stud moving
> about, were the bore centers at all close, etc?
>
As it turns out, the CBX head was not a very good match at all for the
CB77 lower end. I've resorted to a similar strategy that the
Harley-Davidson factory had to do with their iron XR racers. I took the
outside cylinder from each end. I MIGged up the through stud holes and
the intake ports. I then re-bored the through stud holes and built a cam
drive tunnel out of T6066T6 aluminum. I'm slowly, ever so slowly
re-conturing the intake ports, and measuring the cam bearing area to
re-line bore the bearing area for 6004 bearings to support a set of
cams. A lot of work, but boy! will that look nice when combined with the
rest of what I'm building. Maybe I ought to just go looking for an
entire CR72 engine, it'd be a lot easier! Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 13:12:39 -0500
From: gwt@magicnet.net (George Taylor)
Subject: VintRR Intro.message
Hi,
I'm new to this list and I'd like to take a minute and introduce myself.
My name is George Taylor. I own and race three Yamaha road racers:
a TR2B,a TD3 and a TR3.I'm an old timer (58 yrs old) and raced these
model bikes back in the 70s when they were state of the art. I'm the
guy who made most of the fairings for Yamahas from '73 through '83.My
company name was Taylor'd Products Inc.
I had been out of racing since '83 and got started again in '94 with an eye
to finding examples of the bikes I raced so many years ago and getting involved
in the vintage scene. Over the past four years I have accomplished that and
am having every bit as much fun as I had when I was younger. In fact it truly
has made me young (in spirit,at least)again!
Thanks, George Taylor
George Taylor
#1 of 2Old Racing
gwt@magicnet.net
AHRMA&CCS#637 AMA#141
V&F (407)671-8657
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 16:49:03 -0500
From: gwt@magicnet.net (George Taylor)
Subject: VintRR Note to Doug Johnson
Hi Doug--
Somehow we got cut off when you called me a few minutes ago. As I don't
have your phone # I can't call you back. I don't know what happened to our
phone connection. All of a sudden I got a ringing sound and you were gone.
I'll be happy to answer your questions if you call back or you can address
them to me on the net.
I sold my business in 1985 but most of the products I manufactured are still
avaliable from various sorces depending on what you need.
Let me know if I can help you out in any way.
Sincerely, George
George Taylor
#1 of 2Old Racing
gwt@magicnet.net
AHRMA&CCS#637 AMA#141
V&F (407)671-8657
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 18:42:46 -0500
From: tharris@nornet.on.ca (Tim Harris )
Subject: VintRR New to the List
Hello all...
I just joined this mailing list.....
I have been thinking about Vintage Racing for some time now...
But after going to Daytona to watch the Vintage Races I have decided to do
something about it..
This year at the Toronto Bike Show I picked up some information about
Vintage Racing in Ontario but seemed to have lost it...
I am 40+ and have got back into Motorcycles after the kids moved out......
In the last 5 years I have restored two Triumphs ( a Daytona and a
Bonneville), and two Ducatis...(750 GT and a 860GT)
My wife also drives a 1988 Yamaha Virago Route 66 but I am not aloud to
touch that one....
They can be seen at my website address listed in the Signature below...
The 72 Ducati 750 GT would be ideal for the track but I think it would be
prudent to start out on something with a little less power...
Anybody out there with a Ducati Single or similar Italian or British bike
for sale????
I live in Port Dover, Ontario....
A little town (5000) on the North shore of Lake Erie, right accross the lake
from Erie PA....
Also interested in Racing Sailboats.....Aeolus Sonic 23 Sail # 68
We race twice a week in Port Dover and always go to the Level Regatta in
Youngstown NY...
Any links to Vintage Racing in Ontario or close by would be welcomed.....
Tim Harris
Tim Harris Tim's Euro-Passions http://www.nornet.on.ca/~tharris/
1972 Ducati 750 GT Imola Cafe Racer
1975 Ducati 860 GT
1985 BMW K75
1988 Yamaha 250cc Virago "Route 66"
1990 Honda Hawk GT
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:51:19 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: VintRR Hello All
Let's see... My name is Glenn Thomson, I'm 41, and live in Waterloo,
Ontario ( about an hour west of Toronto ). The garage currently holds my
750 Zephyr and 77 RD400, my wife's 79 400 Hawk and a friend's 67 Bonneville
(our 'foster child'). Oh, yeah, there's a 68 Honda 450 in the basement.
I'm currently building the CB450 for our Period 1 (pre '67) class, as a way
of reintroducing myself to roadracing - I kind of dropped out of bikes for
a while when I went back to school to get my degree. The Honda is going
together on the KISS principle right now (GT750 4LS brake, debracketted and
braced frame, stock engine), but I've got a 450 and a 500 engine on the
shelf to build into something more powerful as I need it. Those spare
engines do accumulate, don't they?
According to Motorcycle Online, Todd Henning prefers the 500 head.
Anybody have any thoughts, bearing in mind that under our local rules,
we're obliged to stick with the torsion bar valve springs?
Cheers,
Glenn
msgr@hookup.net
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:48:19 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR CBX head on a CB77
> cams. A lot of work, but boy! will that look nice when combined with the
> rest of what I'm building. Maybe I ought to just go looking for an
> entire CR72 engine, it'd be a lot easier! Ellis
Um, Ellis, did you remember to check with AHRMA to ensure that they
will let you run the bike with that modification? Fitting a CBX head
isn't exactly a period modification, should someone wish to get
technical about it.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:48:19 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR New to the List
> The 72 Ducati 750 GT would be ideal for the track but I think it would be
> prudent to start out on something with a little less power...
> Anybody out there with a Ducati Single or similar Italian or British bike
> for sale????
> Tim Harris
Hello Tim,
Bob Harper, who I believe has subscribed to the list, had a 175 Honda
twin race bike for sale recently. He's in Canada somewhere, and
hopefully will post to you if he's still got the bike for sale.
The little Hondas make very cost effective and competitive 200GP
bikes, and you can see some shots of my CR216 on the web site to
learn just how far you can go with one.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:48:19 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Reminders from the list admin
Hello listers,
Welcome to the new members (I added about 100 so far today to all the
lists, and my fingers are tired!). You'll see some variation of this
post pretty near daily for the next few days, until some of the
bounces stop.
REMEMBER:
Don't use the word "subscrib*" in your posts. This version of
Majordomo parses all the messages to the lists, as well as messages
to the software. If it sees a command word (only the s* word so
far) in a post to the list it will try to treat the post as a
command, and will bounce it both to you and to me when it can't
figure out what to do.
For those of you who use multiple PCs/ISPs: these are closed lists.
If your email address isn't in the list of suscr****ers your
message will be bounced. I've already had a couple of people who,
it appears, signed on from work and then posted when they got home
to their private account. It won't work.
Remember that Majordomo looks at the quoted text:new text ratio. If
the quoted text is more than 3X the new text it will bounce your
post. Keep the included text pruned to the minimum to prevent a
bounce (and make it easier to read for the rest of us).
The bounce messages should show you somewhere in them why the post
bounced. I get a copy of every bounce to deal with, and I'll try to
send you a message pointing out what you need to do to correct the
bounce, but it would be helpful if you could try to figure it out on
your own too (or maybe even prevent the bounce from occuring). If I
have to spend a lot of time dealing with bounces I'm going to change
it so I'm not notified about the bounce, and you'll be stuck on your
own, at least until I get a chance to help you after you've notified
me.
Digests should be issued daily (if there was any traffic in the given
24 hour period). I'll keep copies of the digests on file, and will
send them to you (but don't be in a rush to receive them).
Replies will automatically be sent to the list, unless you change the
address. Keep this in mind if you are going to make a personal reply
to someone.
Be patient. I have to do this in my (right now) limited free time.
If I had realized it would be so time consuming (hopefully this will
taper off once the initial rush is over) I would have postponed
things for a month, until the Laverda is back together and the 2
national vintage races later this month are over.
Still, let me know if something isn't going right on the lists or
your traffic, and I'll try to get things sorted out ASAP.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:58:25 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: VintRR New to the List
On 1 Apr 97 at 18:42, Tim Harris wrote:
> Hello all...
>
> I just joined this mailing list.....
> I have been thinking about Vintage Racing for some time now...
> But after going to Daytona to watch the Vintage Races I have decided to do
> something about it..
> This year at the Toronto Bike Show I picked up some information about
> Vintage Racing in Ontario but seemed to have lost it...
Vintage Road Racing Ass'n. Membership secretary is Manzi Warwick, at
905-839-7464. E-mail me directly for more details.
> I am 40+ and have got back into Motorcycles after the kids moved out......
> In the last 5 years I have restored two Triumphs ( a Daytona and a
> Bonneville), and two Ducatis...(750 GT and a 860GT)
> My wife also drives a 1988 Yamaha Virago Route 66 but I am not aloud to
> touch that one....
Yeah, my knuckles are healing nicely from trying to work on my wife's bike
without permission.
> The 72 Ducati 750 GT would be ideal for the track but I think it would be
> prudent to start out on something with a little less power...
> Anybody out there with a Ducati Single or similar Italian or British bike
> for sale????
Consider a cb350. Stock engine, with drum brakes, is legal for Period 1.
I have a cb450 front drum available off my project bike.
> Any links to Vintage Racing in Ontario or close by would be welcomed.....
There's talk of a web page sometime soon.
Cheers,
Glenn
msgr@hookup.net
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 20:56:44 -0600
From: Richard Hill
Subject: VintRR Hello All
Greatings from Texas,
My name is Richard Hill, I'm 41, and I live just North of Houston. I
grew up in Daytona Beach, and went to every race I could, both cars and
bikes (I'm not a cager at heart, _really_). I would go to the 24 hour
race, throw the old Yam 80 with the GYT kit on the back bumper of the
Vega, and cruise the infield (it was moms' car ). Had more fun on the
bike than watching the race :)
I currently have (5) RD350/400s,a rolling chassis RZ350 (Vintage 4 in
WERA), and a YSR (it's an 88, ... _almost_ vintage ). (2) of the RDs
are racers, (1) is my street ride, and the other (2) are doners. I run
with WERA in the CMRA club in Vintage 3. I guess I got the parallel
twin two-stroke bug from watching the 'giant killers' of the late
60's/early 70's. Always wanted a 350 Yamaha, and now I'm getting my
fill!
Always smokin'
- --
Richard Hill
CMRA #414
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #4
**************************
VintRR-digest Wednesday, April 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 005
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:39:41 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR List stuff
It looks like some people may be having trouble with their typing
and/or reply-to address when they subsc*ibe. Then again, some people
just appear to be having trouble - they are getting the list messages
but aren't being recognized by the list when posting.
I'm seeing your bounced messages, and doing what I can to try and
correct things. Sirius just started offering lists last week, and
I've already identified one bug in the software that they've
corrected. If you get a bounce, I'm trying to send you a message
after I've checked things out asking you to repost the bounced
message. Please don't keep reposting over and over. If you have
trouble, send me an email.
If I can't correct things I'll send an email to the admin at Sirius,
but they only answer stuff during regular work hours, so it may take
12-24 hours to get things straightened out.
FWIW, this message just bounced all 5 lists because I used the
complete spelling of the dreaded sub***** word in the original text.
The price of not bouncing is eternal vigilance, or something like
that.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:08:13 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Addresses must match and a new bad word
I just had Ollie repost his message, as the first time bounced as not
being a list member. He had his reply-to addre** changed (for
anti-spam reasons) from his actual addre** which he was subcr***d
under.
I asked him to change his reply-to addre** to his actual addre**, and
his message went through.
I guess this means that any of you that have some email addre** in
your reply-to line other than the one the list can look up will have
to change things to match when you post to the list.
It also looks like you may need to have the addre** from which the
post is sent match as well.
The above bounced as it seems that majordomo gets confused with
addre** as well as subscri** (though it got to line 6 before
bouncing, ignoring the first instances of addre**).
I'm going to send a message to the ISP admin and ask them about this,
since it seems like more people are doing this modification on a
regular basis.
My message is getting even longer with the new problem.
Perhaps we should just drop a vowel from every word, just in case?
Thanks for your patience; mine is starting to evaporate.
Things will get sorted out eventually.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:19:37 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR A possible solution?
subscribe
subscribe
subscribe
address
address
address
If this gets through I may have fixed the mistaken command word
problem.
The Admin told me that my setting "administrivia" to yes in the
configure file may have made majordomo over-sensitive to command
words in posts. I've just set it to off for all lists (regular and
disgests) and I'm sending this message to see if it helps.
I bet by now you all can hardly wait to start your own exciting
career as a mailing list administrator. If any of you have extensive
experience with Majordomo and can shed some light on this (or offer
some helpful tips), please send me an email.
8:18PM, and I still haven't gotten into the garage. Grrr. At least
I didn't have any crises with the LAN at work today with which to deal.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 23:25:56 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR CBX head on a CB77
Michael Moore wrote:
>
> > cams. A lot of work, but boy! will that look nice when combined with the
> > rest of what I'm building. Maybe I ought to just go looking for an
> > entire CR72 engine, it'd be a lot easier! Ellis
>
> Um, Ellis, did you remember to check with AHRMA to ensure that they
> will let you run the bike with that modification? Fitting a CBX head
> isn't exactly a period modification, should someone wish to get
> technical about it.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
> Michael Moore
> Euro Spares, SF CA
> Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
> Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
> http://www.eurospares.com
> AFM/AHRMA #364
>
>
True. But then, I can always race the machine with a SOHC head. For me
it as much the bike's fidelity to the original CR72's specs, as it is to
be someone's (AHRMA) idea of what's "legal". Assuming that I have the
skills (maybe not) to win races. That's not entirely what it's all about
for me. The ability to make something that someone else might just say
"to much work" and walk away. In any case, AHRMA isn't the only
santioning body, and even if the only track time is the time I buy at
IRP (Indianapolis Raceway Park), that's satisfaction enough for me.
Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:40:07 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR CBX head on a CB77
> True. But then, I can always race the machine with a SOHC head. For me
> it as much the bike's fidelity to the original CR72's specs, as it is to
> be someone's (AHRMA) idea of what's "legal". Assuming that I have the
> skills (maybe not) to win races. That's not entirely what it's all about
> for me. The ability to make something that someone else might just say
> "to much work" and walk away. In any case, AHRMA isn't the only
> santioning body, and even if the only track time is the time I buy at
> IRP (Indianapolis Raceway Park), that's satisfaction enough for me.
> Ellis
Hello Ellis,
You have my sympathy here, as I have a somewhat similar viewpoint.
As far as I know Colin Seeley never made a MKIV frame for a sloper
Honda 175 engine. On my CR216 I designed what I thought he would
have/could have built, in a period fashion, and didn't have any
problems with officialdom.
Stock bikes hold little attraction for me, and I want things my way!
Since most everything has been done several times in the last 70
years (space frames, 4v heads, etc) it is easy to go "shopping" and
say that any given modification was done in some earlier time to some
bike. As you might guess, the rulemakers (whose job is largely
thankless) don't like dealing with this kind of "shopping around".
Then again, I put modern CR26 Kei'hin carbs on the bike when I built
it, trying to be true to the CR style. This was legal at the time
(under both AHRMA and CVRG rules), but after a few years somebody
raised a stink about the modern CR carbs (they may have been in use
on a Ducati single - which wasn't allowed under the up/backdate in
the original brand of carb rule) and suddenly my fairly historically
accurate carbs were banned (no integral float smoothbore carbs,
unless provided as original equipment ie. CR93/72/77).
When my 216 goes back together I've got a couple of 30mm Dell'Orto
pumper-type carbs (with pumps disabled) to go on it. They don't look
right, but they are legal under the rules.
Even though my friend Peter occasionally runs his CR77 with AHRMA,
I'm just concerned that you may fall afoul of the "period
modification" rule, as the CBX obviously wasn't available in "the
period". But if you aren't overly concerned, I'll try not to lose
any sleep either.
Best of luck,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:41:13 -1000
From: bsagsdgw@maui.net (Webster Family)
Subject: Re: VintRR Intro.message
Dear George,
Are you the George Taylor that used to race with the FGPR in Fla?
Aloha
Dave
David Webster
Maui, Hawaii
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 09:25:00 -0500 (EST)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: VintRR Hello All
>
>Let's see... My name is Glenn Thomson, I'm 41, and live in Waterloo,
>Ontario ( about an hour west of Toronto ).
Snip
>I'm currently building the CB450 for our Period 1 (pre '67) class, as a way
>of reintroducing myself to roadracing -
Snip
>
>According to Motorcycle Online, Todd Henning prefers the 500 head.
>Anybody have any thoughts, bearing in mind that under our local rules,
>we're obliged to stick with the torsion bar valve springs?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Glenn
The 450 head has an iron skull cast into it while the 500T has iron valve
seats shrunk in. I've heard stories of 500's dropping seats but never seen
one. If you look at a 450 head beside a 500T you'll see that the intake
tracts on the 500 are not in the same plane and each takes a slightly
different bend into the combustion chamber. The 450's are straighter. The
500T will cool better but the 450 will (IMHO) flow better. You're choice.
I did the same as you and raced a bone stock engine with a braced frame,
Water Buffalo 4LS front drum, Yamaha XS650 front forks yada,yada,yada for
the first season. The bike went well, held together and I had a lot of
fun. The key is very careful assembly with an eye to keeping all
tolerances within the spec given in the manual. I had a real punch-up
with two modified CB450's at Mosport last year and my stock engine pulled
them both up the back straight. I beat em both too. I attribute this to
care and patience.
The 450 frame is (again IMHO) a superior piece to the 500T and it also
has a steeper steering head angle. The 500T swingarm is however stronger
and longer so I have one in my 450 frame. Works very well.
This past winter I built a new engine with pistons, cams, carbs, porting
etc. If it doesn't blow up it should go like stink.
Also be aware that although many parts are interchangeable between the 450
and 500T, some aren't. I've accumulated two 500's and about eight 450's
from various years so if you are in doubt drop me a post and I'll tell you
what I can.
BTW I should introduce myself. I'm 48 and live in Ottawa. I started riding
(illegally) at 15 on a friend's bike, got my own at 16 and have never been
without one since. My street ride is a BMW K75 but my first love is
Hondas from the 1960's.
If anyone is interested I have a few sets of brand new stock brake shoes
for the GT750 front drum and a box of NOS Honda pistons which I had to buy
to get the 450 stuff. All are going at reasonable prices.
- --
Peter Alan Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or mariner@istar.ca
Vintage Road Racing - you're only young once but with enough determination
you can stay immature forever.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 07:38:37 -0800
From: Ben Bennett
Subject: VintRR Hello
My name is Ben Bennett, I'm 64 years old, I live in southern California,
I love motorcycles and tinkering. I should add "motorcycle roadracing.
I currently have a Kawasaki ZG100 (Concours), A Honda CB700
(NightHawk S)and I'm building a sidecar. The sidecar is BMW /2 with a
900cc motor. the car is a Ural Jupiter. I'm adapting 15" automotive
wheels all around,and I'm converting the brakes to disk.
I'm stuck at home, recovering from an auto accident. (thank God
for the
Internet). I'm pretty sure I'll not be able to ride a solo bike again,
thanks to the accident, hence my renewed intrest in my sidecar project.
Ben Bennett
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:46:01 +0100
From: "Stephen Williams"
Subject: VintRR Hello, and I need some Fontana disc calipers
I've just joined the list - great to see one for vintage bikes!
I'm starting a rebuild of a Seeley Kawasaki H2R, so it's perhaps borderline
for this list, so please be tolerant if you think it's outside and let me
know. Engine built in 1974, frame in 1973. Amongst other things I need a
set of Mikuni carbs. When I had an H2R back then I used VM-36 from Sudco,
because that's all I could get here in the UK, although Hurley Wilvert was
using 38mm in the US. Are either of these carbs still available? I also
seem to remember Lektron producing flat slide carbs around then, first seen
on Kenny Roberts' TZ750. Anyone corroborate this? I've seen recent pix of
Mikuni 38mm flat slides on a Suzuki triple motor, would these be out of the
1970s era or not?
I also need some brake calipers. The standard H2R ones were Tokico single
piston straight off the road bike, but many riders in the UK and Europe
were using Fontana calipers on their F750 bikes. These I think were copies
of the popular Lockheed (2 piston ?) units but cast in magnesium. Looked
very similar anyway.
Anyone point me to a set?
Thanks in advance.
Stephen Williams
giw131@mail.zynet.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:45:06 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Admin stuff - everyone please read
It looks like we'll just have to take our chances on spam-mongers.
I don't have time to handle all the subscription approvals, so I've
changed the lists to a "confirm" style of subscription. Apparently,
the majordomo will send back a confirmation message/number which is
then resent by the subscriber. It was a closed subscription, which
meant I had to approve everyone. I thought that would be best to
avoid spammers, but I don't have time, and another list administrator
has told me that the confirm option works OK (or at least helps).
I've also changed so that you no longer have to be a list member to
post to the list. Too many people seem to have trouble, either with
posting from somewhere other than their subscription address or
having an address that varies depending on what server the mail goes
through at the ISP.
This means that as soon as the spammers get the list addresses we're
at risk. Again, I don't have time right now to fool with all the
bounces, so we'll just have to take our lumps. If spam gets to be a
problem (more than the occasional message) I'll see about restricting
posts to list members again.
These changes should vastly reduce the traffic into my in-box. If
you have a problem that you can't solve by all means mail me, and
I'll work with you.
Some of you have bounced - it looks like you might have posted before
being subscribed (which took a return message from me). You may now
be subscribed (I've done everything pending), so you might think
about reposting your intro messages.
Thanks, and sorry for the bother (on both sides!). I thought running
a restrictive policy on the list would make things better for the
members - I hope loosening things won't make things worse, but I just
don't have the time to deal with 30-100 subscription approvals/day,
and another 20-30 bounce messages.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:38:42 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Hello, and I need some Fontana disc calipers
> I'm starting a rebuild of a Seeley Kawasaki H2R, so it's perhaps borderline
> for this list, so please be tolerant if you think it's outside and let me
Hello Stephen,
As the list admin/owner, I formerly pronounce your bike "just fine".
It fits into the general early 70s and before period that I wanted
the list to address.
> know. Engine built in 1974, frame in 1973. Amongst other things I need a
> set of Mikuni carbs. When I had an H2R back then I used VM-36 from Sudco,
> because that's all I could get here in the UK, although Hurley Wilvert was
> using 38mm in the US. Are either of these carbs still available? I also
> seem to remember Lektron producing flat slide carbs around then, first seen
> on Kenny Roberts' TZ750. Anyone corroborate this? I've seen recent pix of
> Mikuni 38mm flat slides on a Suzuki triple motor, would these be out of the
> 1970s era or not?
The FS Mikunis wouldn't be vintage legal - they are much to recent.
I'm a distributor under Sudco, and the VM36/38s are still available.
The Lectrons are a mid-70s carb - I'd have to look in the AHRMA rule
book to see if they are allowed.
> I also need some brake calipers. The standard H2R ones were Tokico single
> piston straight off the road bike, but many riders in the UK and Europe
> were using Fontana calipers on their F750 bikes. These I think were copies
> of the popular Lockheed (2 piston ?) units but cast in magnesium. Looked
> very similar anyway.
I've seen a few of the Fontana calipers in the US, but they weren't
very common. I'd suggest using either aluminum Lockheed/AP calipers
or possible Brembo/Spondon stuff, though the Spondon might be a
little too late for strict acceptance, depending on the rules you are
running.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:38:41 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR A tip
Some of you have your text editors set for an extremely wide line,
and I'm losing some of your text because of that.
I think if you could set for a 70-80 character line with word wrap
things would work out better.
I don't want to lose any valuable info that I can apply to (swipe
for) my projects.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 20:44:52 -0500
From: RDSRUS@sssnet.com (William Fulmer)
Subject: VintRR Intro
Greetings,
My name is Bill Fulmer and have 30 years experience in motorcycles
and roadracing. I am hoping to get some info off this list in an attempt
to return to roadracing after a 15 year layoff. I can be reached at
RDSRUS@sssnet.com Thank you
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 21:15:59 EST
From: bike17@juno.com (SLOT STER)
Subject: Re: VintRR Admin stuff - everyone please read
Sorry to bother you with this, but I seem to have lost my address to post
to the vintage roadracing list. If you could senf it to me, please?
Eric E. Klos
bike17@juno.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:18:02 -0000
From: "T. Imm"
Subject: Re: VintRR Admin stuff - everyone please read
vintage-roadrace@list.sirius.com
> Sorry to bother you with this, but I seem to have lost my address to post
> to the vintage roadracing list. If you could senf it to me, please?
>
> Eric E. Klos
>
> bike17@juno.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:49:38 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Admin stuff - everyone please read
> To: vintage-roadrace@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: VintRR Admin stuff - everyone please read
> From: bike17@juno.com (SLOT STER)
> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 21:15:59 EST
> Reply-to: vintage-roadrace@list.sirius.com
> Sorry to bother you with this, but I seem to have lost my address to post
> to the vintage roadracing list. If you could senf it to me, please?
>
> Eric E. Klos
>
> bike17@juno.com
Hello Eric
send to
majordomo@list.sirius.com
message
subscribe vintage-roadrace bike17@juno.com
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #5
**************************
VintRR-digest Thursday, April 3 1997 Volume 01 : Number 006
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 22:48:22 -0600
From: Mike and Rebecca Stenger
Subject: VintRR Racing Wasteland!
I tried to post this earlier but it didn't show up on the digest so I'll
try again. Is there any roadracing a reasonable distance from Omaha,
Nebraska? I would love to get into it but there's no tracks around here.
Mike Stenger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:21:54 -0700 (MST)
From: "P. BENSON"
Subject: Re: VintRR Racing Wasteland!
On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Mike and Rebecca Stenger wrote:
> I tried to post this earlier but it didn't show up on the digest so I'll
> try again. Is there any roadracing a reasonable distance from Omaha,
> Nebraska? I would love to get into it but there's no tracks around here.
> Mike Stenger
>
Mike,
Getting into racing is one of those things that can be totally baffling to
the newcomer. Don't give up.
There's a good source that Duke R. put together, and I believe it can be
found at:
http://www.io.com/duke/newrrfaq.htm
Otherwise, Duke posts it every now and then to the rec.motorcycles.racing
list, so you can find it there. It's a great source, written for those
who are really getting started.
Get a recent copy of "Roadracing World and Motorcycle Technology" or
"American Roadracing" in a _good_ bookstore. There's gotta be one in
Omaha. In it, you can find a calendar, and a list of moto-c racing
sanctioning bodies. Look for one active in your area, and write and ask
for a rule book. Consider the class(es) you want to run. Start small,
your first racing bike is to learn on, not win the World Superbike title.
Pay your health insurance. Employers are now being required to _not_
exclude coverage for "high risk" activities, and motorcycle racing is one
of them. (Thank you AMA for your congressional input on this one!)
Since this is a vintage racing list, I should focus on vintage racing.
The major sanctioning body is AHRMA (American Historic Racing Motorcycle
Association), and they're listed in RW or AR (above). Honda 350s make a
nice entry bike for AHRMA racing, or any of a variety of other things.
Folks on this list will likely give you a _lot_ of opinions if you ask!
Downside to AHRMA? The races are scattered all over the place. You can
get more seat time in a modern class that's active in your area.
Go to school, get a license. Buy a bike. One that's already been raced
will already be safety wired, etc. Saves a lot of time and hassle in
getting started.
Go racing.
Hope this helps. And, I can relate to the problem of no close tracks,
since the closest m/c roadracing to where I live is about 375 miles away.
Bummer!
Phil Benson
Las Cruces New Mexico
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 09:12:11 +0100 (BST)
From: Philip Pick
Subject: Re: VintRR Hello, and I need some Fontana disc calipers
On Wed 02 Apr, Stephen Williams wrote:
>
> I also need some brake calipers. The standard H2R ones were Tokico single
> piston straight off the road bike, but many riders in the UK and Europe
> were using Fontana calipers on their F750 bikes. These I think were copies
> of the popular Lockheed (2 piston ?) units but cast in magnesium. Looked
> very similar anyway.
>
> Anyone point me to a set?
I've spoken to a business friend here in UK, who has 1 set of the
Fontana calipers. He will not sell them, due to the problems of
using them.
He had much experience with F750 (Richard Pecett, of P&M) and the
Fontana was often troublesome. They flex, particularly when warm,
and leak too. He found that often a brake bleed was needed before
racing. He persisted with them on the rear of a number of bikes
for a while, but got fed up with the problems, and after a change
to Lockheed, no further trouble.
The smaller three rib (CP2195) is a great rarity, but the later
4-rib caliper is available new, from me amoungst many others, at
GB Pounds 83.00 plus freight. The mounting points, piston diameter
and pad size have remained unchanged.
Hope this helps.
- --
Philip Pick, Triple Cycles, 228 Henley Road Ilford Essex IG1 2TW England
Telephone +44 181 478 4807 Fax +44 181 478 4807
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 14:38:38 +0100
From: Guzziman
Subject: VintRR Introduction
Salve tutti,
Just an introduction of a vintage and classic race enthousiast
from Holland. My name is Ivar de Gier. Although I read a lot of
information on this new list of the seventies
(production)racebikes my personal interest lays in twenties -
fifties, and in some occasions mid sixties. But the messages I
read so far are intersting as well, as could be expected from
that era as well.
I own several classic/vintage ex-works bikes myself, mostly Moto
Guzzi, as well as some production bikes. All of them I have
restored myself. I don't ride classic races with these, since
spare parts are not to find anymore and they all are restored
with original parts, no replica parts. I have a deep historic
interest in the racing between the 20's-50's. I correspond with
several old worldchampions and other factory riders of the big
European brands of those days. Amongst them are Bill Lomas, Ken
Kavanagh, Geoff Duke, Bruno Ruffo and the late Stanley Woods.
Also constructors like ing. Giulio Carcano, Antonio Micucci and
Lino Tonti I have very frequent contact with. Without their help
I could not have restored my old racing bikes. People on the
list who own/campaign/work on any classic racing Guzzi or Gilera
I can help very well. I am quite specialised on the Guzzi
250/350/500 OHC and 250/350/500 DOHC racing bikes of the
fifties, the same with the Gilera 4-cylinder racing bikes.
I also am the mechanic of a Vincent Comet, totally rebuilded to
full Grey Flash specification, racing bike which a friend of
mine owns and campaigns. With this I have the fun I in some
cases can't have with some of my own bikes... In my scarce free
time you can see me flag as a track official during the Dutch
Classic Racing Team racing and demo events, and yes, I go to the
IOM T.T. each year, as well as some Italian historic racing
events, like Milano-Taranto, Giro d'Italia etc. Hopefully we
will see some interesting correspondation on the vintage and
classic European racing bikes as well.
Thanks to Michael Moore for his initiative and his hard work to
set this list up. Thanks Michael!! and good luck with the
Laverda!!!! These beasts used to race at the 24 hours in Oss,
Holland in the beginning-mid seventies. Works team with works
rider, almost impossible to beat!
Arrivederci,
Ivar de Gier.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 08:34:27 -0500 (EST)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: VintRR Hello, and I need some Fontana disc calipers
>
>
>I'm starting a rebuild of a Seeley Kawasaki H2R, so it's perhaps borderline
>for this list, so please be tolerant if you think it's outside and let me
>know.
SNIP
>seem to remember Lektron producing flat slide carbs around then, first seen
>on Kenny Roberts' TZ750. Anyone corroborate this? I've seen recent pix of
>Mikuni 38mm flat slides on a Suzuki triple motor, would these be out of the
>1970s era or not?
>
Don't know about the UK but here in Canada the Vintage Road Racing
Association allows Lectrons for Period 3 which is for machines which have
a model year between Jan 1st, 1973 and 1978. Obviously then, our tech
committee feels they are correct for that period of time.
- --
Peter Alan Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or mariner@istar.ca
Vintage Road Racing - you're only young once but with enough determination
you can stay immature forever.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 09:08:00 EST
From: "LACKO, JOHN, HMR/US"
Subject: VintRR Introduction & question
Hello, My name is John Lacko. I'm 42, and have been riding now for 25 years.
I have several different bikes, but the two I'm most proud of are my 1949
Norton International, and my 1950 BMW racer. I've been working on this BMW
for the best part of 5 years now, and it's finally in the home stretch, and
should be done this year.
Most of the bike came to me from an old time dealer that was heavily
involved in racing both before and after WWII. It's a plunger frame 750cc
machine, and features a factory close-ratio gearbox; Hoske full-width brake
drums & shoes, Rennsport front brake plate; Fisher racing carbs; Hoske
racing gas tank; Magura racing controls; Drilastic seats; aluminum fairing &
rims; and many other details that I've spent a lot of time hunting down to
make it right.
I talked at great length with the son of the original owner, and he told me
many tales of the 'good old days'. He told me that as a younger fellow, his
father used to give him the fasteners (bolts) from the race bikes, and have
him drill them down the center to make them lighter & stronger. He
maintained that a 'tube' was actually stronger than a solid rod. After a
long afternoon of drilling bolts, the waste material was carefully collected
and weighed to see how many grams had been shaved off the machine!
My question is for any of the more knowledgeable AHRMA-types out there:
This machine is definitely a period piece, faithfully put back together
with all the right parts. But being a 750cc OHV machine, I'm limited as to
what classes I can race it under AHRMA. There's also the issue of the
aluminum fairing... It's a work of art, and I sure don't want to lose it.
It's barely larger then the number plate that is painted on the front, but
it's still a fairing. Because of this, AHRMA rules would push it up into
the Sportsman class, where I'd be riding against other 750s built in the
1970s! Being a 1950 machine, this would be silly... and I don't just mean
from the point of being competitive - it should be out there mixing it up
with other bikes of the 1950's ( or maybe older).
I have not yet applied for any exception to run in any other class because
the bike isn't close enough to being done. I was just wondering what some
other more experienced hands think about all this. Do you think it'll be
hard getting it approved?
I'd appreciate any input. jl
John Lacko lacko@brwhcc3.hcc.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 97 09:33:33 -0500
From: "Raymond P. Farrell"
Subject: VintRR Introduction
Hello all and thank you Michael for this list.
My name is Ray Farrell and I live in Colorado Springs, CO.
I've been 'into' Nortons for about 12 years. I have 4 Commandos,
and a Triumph, but don't ask me how many are running. :) I average
around 8,000 miles a year on my favorite Commando. The canyon
roads here are great for scraping exhausts.
I've been going to Steamboat to see the races in September for
many years, and each time I have gone away with a BIG desire
to try some racing myself. So, this year, I finally
decided to get busy and go for it. Another Norton nut and
myself have teamed up to put together a basically stock
'75 Commando with a '72 750 engine. Neither one of us have deep
pockets, so our budget is tight. We are working like crazy to
get it ready for the Friday before Willow Springs. I hope to see some
of you race veterans there.
I've already rebuilt the gearbox, bought 18" rims and tires
(front and back), bought Works performance shocks, and bought
some excellent used leathers. I am still in the process of
rebuilding the front roadholders, engine and swingarm. We will
run a boyer with stock carburetors.
Some of you may know Bruce Haugh. He lives nearby, and has been
helping me get things sorted out. He is in the process of getting
a Matchless G50 ready for Willow Springs.
If anyone has a cheap pair of racing boots size 10 1/2 for sale,
let me know.
Thanks
Ray Farrell
850 Commando
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 14:05:22 EST
From: bike17@juno.com (SLOT STER)
Subject: [none]
This may not fit the format of this list, but here goes. I have looked
all over but just cannot find info and parts on old Rockports. I have an
old 50cc(yeah, I know-too small to be a real bike)and am looking for any
books, repair manuals, literature, etc..
I am also looking for a place to get parts, particularly starter motor.
Any help would be cherished.
Eric E. Klos
bike17@juno.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:17:25, -0500
From: YTNH94A@prodigy.com (MRS KAREN C KEGLER)
Subject: VintRR Introduction
Hi Vintage Racers,
My name is Heinz Kegler.
Started out in East Germany with a 1932 Norton International in the
early 50's. Went to West Germany (1957) and bought a used 1953
Norton Domi 88. Rode the bike to Norton Motors, Bracebridge Street,
Birmingham, England for a major engine overhaul and was offered a job
in the experimental dept. as a Test Rider, which I accepted.
Came to the US with Berliner Motor Corp., and started building a 500
Norton Twin GP bike, which was successfully ridden by George Rockett
and Chuck Dearborn.
I live in Albuquerque now.....retired.
I raced my Domi in Daytona, Steamboat and at Firebird. Unfortunately
I cannot race anymore because of a total hip replacement, but I still
ride it and tinker with it.
I now do precision drum brake jobs, rebuild and modify AMC Clutches
to servo-action and also modify AMC gearbox camplates for reverse
shiftlever.
Yes, I am the one who was in the "dog fight", as you might know.
My thanks to Michael Moore for starting Vintage Roadracer List.
I'm looking forward to some interesting bench racing (e-mail racing).
Regards,
Heinz
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 17:39:29 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Introduction & question
> Norton International, and my 1950 BMW racer. I've been working on this BMW
> for the best part of 5 years now, and it's finally in the home stretch, and
> > father used to give him the fasteners (bolts) from the race bikes, and have
> him drill them down the center to make them lighter & stronger. He
> maintained that a 'tube' was actually stronger than a solid rod. After a
> long afternoon of drilling bolts, the waste material was carefully collected
> and weighed to see how many grams had been shaved off the machine!
Hello John,
The metal at the center of the bolt is along the neutral axis, and
gives little or no extra resistance to bending. A small hole down
the middle will save a small amount of weight for minimal strength
loss. If you need more strength go to a bigger OD fastener with a much
bigger hole. This is the idea behind the 25mm hollow tubular axles I
run on the Laverda. I also drill down the center of things like
brake cams, etc.
> My question is for any of the more knowledgeable AHRMA-types out there:
> This machine is definitely a period piece, faithfully put back together
> with all the right parts. But being a 750cc OHV machine, I'm limited as to
I think you should ask to run with the pre51 class. If your
performance isn't out of range with the long-stroke twin-cam Garden
Gate Manx I think they'd let you run there. You might want to talk
it over with some of the folks already racing in the class before
approaching AHRMA.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 21:01:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Paul C. Kurth"
Subject: Re: VintRR question
I plan on racing a CB350 this year, here in Texas. I will be moving in a
year to parts unknown. My question is: Will I be able to build a bike
that can race in just about any of the racing sanctioning bodies? I
believe that CMRA races with WERA, were can I get a rule book for WERA
vintage rules? All have been able to get from CMRA is a general rule
book, but it isn't very specific. I think that CMRA has changed there
name? It's been a couple of years sense I went to any of the races.
My current bike:
CB350 twin
- Is it worth the money to punch out the size to 350cc's?
(I ask because money is very tight, I only want to get on the
track and learn to race)
- I will need rear shocks. Any ideas about used ones?
- The front brake is the Honda twin leading shoe. Okay for now?
- Tires?
- sprocket sizes?
- I think that 30mm Mikuni's would be right. Is this right?
- I've built a 2 into 1 exhaust. Correct?
Any suggestions would be great.
Cameron
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:16:18 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR question
> I plan on racing a CB350 this year, here in Texas. I will be moving in a
> year to parts unknown. My question is: Will I be able to build a bike
> that can race in just about any of the racing sanctioning bodies? I
Hello Cameron,
I think that if you build your bike to AHRMA specs you'll always be
able to find a spot to race it. Don't forget that WERA isn't in the
business of promoting large nearly vintage-only (since AHRMA does
SOS/BOTT/BEARS too) race weekends, and you'll want to be able to ride
at Steamboat Springs and Daytona if you get a chance.
> CB350 twin
> - Is it worth the money to punch out the size to 350cc's?
> (I ask because money is very tight, I only want to get on the
> track and learn to race)
If it is running good now just leave it alone, especially if money is
tight. You need track time and chassis stuff more than bhp to start.
Get some bronze bushings to replace the worn out plastic swing arm
pivot bushings, and if you need steering head bearings get tapered
rollers.
> - I will need rear shocks. Any ideas about used ones?
Hagon (formerly Gas Girlings), NJB (similar to Hagon), S&W, Works
Performance, Konis - any of these will be an improvement over your
worn out (or even new) stock dampers.
> - The front brake is the Honda twin leading shoe. Okay for now?
You'd probably do OK with some good linings, though a bigger brake
will be nice. I've got a Super Hawk 8" front on my 210# vintage
Honda twin, and that brake with stock linings is hopeless. You can
get good linings from either Vintage Brakes (Ferodo distributors) or
from Heinz Kegler, who just posted his intro on the list today.
> - Tires?
Get some race compound Avons. Don't let them sell you some that are
too big for the rims. With stock rims a 90/90x18 front and 100x18
rear should fit well.
> - sprocket sizes?
Your stock engine probably won't pull redline with the stock gearing,
so just stick with that to start.
> - I think that 30mm Mikuni's would be right. Is this right?
If you build the engine up all the way 36mm carbs would probably be
good. If your engine is stock you might try running with the stock
carbs until you can get the dosh together for a package of engine
modifications.
> - I've built a 2 into 1 exhaust. Correct?
No - a 180 degree twin needs two individual exhausts. If you had a
360 degree crank then a 2-1 has some good points about it (like 20
more rear wheel bhp on my Laverda).
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 07:41:21 +0300
From: Tomas Tallkvist
Subject: VintRR vintRR intoduction
Hello all !
I am Tomas Tallkvist from the Jakobstad in Finland, Age 25 Have a main
interest in classic racing and single cylinder bikes !
Current Race bike is a seeley framed Bsa DBD34 engined one under continus
modification !
Ongoing projects is:
- - Making up castings of the goldstar cylinder, (every original ones that I
have seen is cracked in the foot region) making up the model did take 3
times as long as calculated !
- - Building a programmable digital ignition system
I have also a interest in tuning engines, did buid a dynamometer last year
(the first thing anyone that is going to touch a engine should have !) have
also an vintage dynamometer Heenan&froude DPX2
I will try to put up up a website during this year (when get enough of time)
Many thanks to Michael who is doing a great job with the lists !
Cheers
Tomas
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 20:44:08 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR vintRR intoduction
> I will try to put up up a website during this year (when get enough of time)
>
> Cheers
> Tomas
And I believe I have a picture or two of Tomas' Seeley Goldstar on my
website.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:16:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Elin Phinizy
Subject: VintRR Hello &The Killer Gilera.
Hello,
My name is Jay Phinizy. I am one of Michael's original guinea pigs for
starting up this list and must thank Michael for the idea and effort
putting it together . I am 49 and live in N.H. - still snowing. I have
been riding since the mid '60's - I did alot of road riding and
cow-trailing in Calif. back then - and recently got into road-racing -
with USCRA which is based out of NHIS (Loudon) and extremely mellow - good
club and good people.
Currently, I am racing an R-5 (1972) ported (not over-severly) and tricked
out in Td/Tr glass seat and tank, etc. etc. I must say it is a real treat
to run and handles like a dream, too bad I was such a bike snob in the '60s
& '70s. The next project is to take a DS-7 and turn it into a Td3/Tz 250
wannabe (Ivy on Helmet optional) with funky powerband and all. The first
toy that I took out at NHIS was a 125 Gilera (1965) to which I attached a
Benelli 250 front end. The challenge was - natch - as a result of various
friends saying it couldn't be done (Remember, motto on NH license
plates:"Live free or Die"). What a neat little bike. I did not come in last
my first race and dusted a 250 duck(with a rider that was about as [in]
competent as I) in the back turn onto the straight for the flag, after he
missed a shift - Geoff Duke eat your heart out. Joe Bolger - and a really
nice person - of race fame looked at the little fellow last year and said
with a great smile:"Lash three more 125's to that one and you'll have a
500/4..."
Now! Any suggestions from some of you racing vintage wizards or should I
say vintage racing wizards and engine building freaks...The little Gilera
needs to be pumped up. Ages ago there was a racing kit supplied for the 124
Fl ("Fl" stands for Florida where they were imported) which included
amongst other things a cam, larger intake valve and spring, megaphone
(which, Incredible to believe I have). The carb was bumped to a 22mm del
Orto with a corresponding 22mm intake manifold (I have opened the 20 mm
delOrto to 22mm and fabricated my own manifold). If we lower the teeth on
the rear sprocket and fiddle with 3rd and 4th, &c., I don't know that we
have the corresponding hp to do what we want. While the little fellow
handles like a dream and makes a great note, We'll need alot more spit! to
take the snotty 125 Hondas and a killer Maico that run in the 200 GP at
Loudon; however, Stafford Spgs Ct. is putting in a short circuit (1mi +/-
and very curvacious) which will be one of USCRA's races, could be just the
venue for the killer Gilera. Any Ideas??
Jay
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #6
**************************
VintRR-digest Saturday, April 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 007
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 04 Apr 97 11:39:50 EST
From: Mark Hatten <102136.3317@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: VintRR Yet Another Introduction
Hello everyone:
First off, while I race with AHRMA, I don't race a vintage bike exactly --
instead, I race a heavily modified Honda FT500 Ascot in AHRMA Sound of Singles
F2. But, being around the vintage bikes so much, I really have an appreciation
for them. So I'll probably just lurk here.
A quick plug for AHRMA -- they are really a GREAT organization to race with. If
you can make one of their events, do it! You won't be disappointed. The WERA
Vintage guys are pretty cool (my bike qualifies for WERA Vintage 4) -- better
than the usual WERA officials. Not to crack on WERA, I just think it comes down
to the fact that WERA is a for-profit corporation that provides a livelyhood for
several people, and money is the bottom line. AHRMA is a non-profit member
organization, and keeping their members happy (or at least as many as possible)
is their bottom line. You may have read about some turmoil within AHRMA,
especially regarding Team Obsolete and Rob Iannucci (sp)? Trust me, it's little
more than a few very vocal individuals. The vast majority of AHRMA racers are
very happy.
Okay, end of commercial. And no, I don't work for AHRMA :-)
Anyway, if you're thinking about racing, get out and do it! The atmosphere at
most vintage races is very low key. Sure, people want to win, but most folks
out there aren't going to stuff you for a chance at a cheap wood plaque. Most
folks are happy if their bike runs well, they found someone in the pack to dice
with, and everyone goes back to work healthy on Monday.
BTW, if you are interested in modern singles racing, check out my web site at:
http://members.aol.com/hatman97
Later.
Mark Hatten
Swingin' Singles Racing
AHRMA, WERA #97
Honda FT500
http://members.aol.com/hatman97
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:11:17 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Graphics posted to the lists
Hello folks,
Just a reminder - please don't post graphics to the list.
First off, it can overload some peoples systems (and they might not
even be interested in the picture).
Even more important, the lists are configured to a maximum message
size, and most graphics will exceed that. This means your message
will just be bounced anyway, and any valuable comments that may have
been included with the graphic file will be lost forever (or at least
until you repost them without the graphics).
And yes, someone did just attempt to post a graphics file.
Out of curiousity, did majordomo fail to send out the intro file when
you subscribed? I mentioned the graphics policy (and other similar
stuff) in that. Perhaps it is the old RTFM problem rearing its head.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:13:40 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Yet Another Introduction
> BTW, if you are interested in modern singles racing, check out my web site at:
> http://members.aol.com/hatman97
> Mark Hatten
> Swingin' Singles Racing
And Mark neglected to mention that in his second year of racing he
placed 2nd overall in the AHRMA SOS F2 class.
Congrats Mark!
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 16:08:37
From: Ed Scharnhorst
Subject: VintRR Howdy
Thought I'd stop lurking,
I'm a 30yr old grad student at Virginia Tech. and a rider for 14yrs. Since
returning to school I have been, um, fiscally challenged. I've been piecing
together a 250 Ducati. Originally it was to ride on the street, but I seem
to keep picking up race-type parts instead of nice original stuff. I've
been off the track while in school. Every time I go to watch friends race
in middle weight superbike (my old class) I think, "man, that's crazy."
Then I watch the vintage classes where everybody seems to have a blast
without trying to knock one another down for a $5 trophy. So I think I'll
leave the headlight off that Duc and just have fun! So, if you have any
hints on good shocks, cams or whatever, I'd love to hear it. Especially if
you know how to shim the transmission on a narrow-case Ducati!
On a previous post. I don't recall who, but someone posted about racing
with an alloy fairing. What about pulling a mold off and doing a replica up
in fiberglass? Wouldn't look as pretty on the track, but it might save some
tears later.
Ed Scharnhorst (ducboy@VT.EDU)
Always looking for Ducati pushrod & 2-stroke singles parts.
'86 fz-600, '61 Ducati 98,'64 Ducati 100,'6? Ducati 160,'6? Ducati 250
It's FrankenSTEEN resting the Smack-quack It's dead Jim Diana wannabe
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 17:28:40 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: VintRR Copper head gaskets
In my eternal quest to get my CR72 replica together, I've found a
company called Copper Gasket (602-993-2606) the man I spoke to said they
can create a gasket for "anything". They quote $24.95 for my particular
head gasket, and said they could ship within 24 hours. If you need a
head gasket you might give these folks a try. Ellis
------------------------------
Date: 04 Apr 97 18:34:27 EST
From: Mark Hatten <102136.3317@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: VintRR re: Yet Another Introduction
>>And Mark neglected to mention that in his second year of racing he
placed 2nd overall in the AHRMA SOS F2 class.
Congrats Mark!
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore<<
Aw shucks, Michael. (Blush, blush.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:07:25 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR FYI - Subscribers, gen list stuff
As of 3:56PM on Friday (PST) the subscribers stats are:
30 vintage-dirt
80 vintage-roadrace
31 lightweight-roadrace
19 suzuki-gs-twin
68 mc-chassis-design
Things now seem to be moving along pretty well glitch-wise. I posted
about the lists to the different rec.moto.??? lists this morning, so
maybe we'll pick up some more people soon. I suspect that
vintage-dirt might get some from rec.moto.dirt as there often seems
to be a thread about starting a rec.moto.vintage-dirt list (which
hasn't happened as far as I know).
For those of you who might be shy about posting to the lists because
of a perceived lack of knowledge on the topics - don't be. I think
that you'll find that most people are glad to educate (different
from berate, mind you), and at times some of us will find out that
we didn't know quite as much as we thought we did when we first
answer someone's question. I've certainly learned some stuff over
the past 1.25 years of being on mailing lists.
Besides, it is often interesting to me when someone asks a question
about a bike in their garage that, while to them is just "their old
bike", turns out to be some bit of rare/exotic/wierd/famous tackle.
I know that some of you have some pretty interesting scoots - tell us
some details: are they reliable, do you have to make all your own
parts, are they really worth +/- 10 seconds a lap?
Thanks to everyone who's been posting - I'm having fun.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:13:33 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: VintRR Introduction & question
On 3 Apr 97 at 9:08, LACKO, JOHN, HMR/US wrote:
Description of a lovely bike snipped....
> My question is for any of the more knowledgeable AHRMA-types out there:
> This machine is definitely a period piece, faithfully put back together
> with all the right parts. But being a 750cc OHV machine, I'm limited as to
> what classes I can race it under AHRMA. There's also the issue of the
> aluminum fairing... It's a work of art, and I sure don't want to lose it.
> It's barely larger then the number plate that is painted on the front, but
> it's still a fairing.
Could you pull a mold off the fairing and make a fibreglass replica for
race use? As you say, it would be a shame to crunch it.
Would AHMRA have a problem with that?
GT
msgr@hookup.net
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:28:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Paul C. Kurth"
Subject: VintRR CB350 which way up?
I'm going to be splitting the case on my 350 tonight. My manual doesn't
say which way to split the case. One picture it seems to be upside down
the next, right side up. I've opened a gearbox the wrong way, not pretty.
I'm going to need some new gaskets and rings for it, any good sources?
Thanks
Cameron
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 23:15:14 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR CB350 which way up?
Paul C. Kurth wrote:
>
> I'm going to be splitting the case on my 350 tonight. My manual doesn't
> say which way to split the case. One picture it seems to be upside down
> the next, right side up. I've opened a gearbox the wrong way, not pretty.
>
> I'm going to need some new gaskets and rings for it, any good sources?
>
> Thanks
> Cameron
>
>
>
Hi Paul,
When I worked on the CB350's (and all the Honda twins for that matter)
at the agency (long years ago), I'd just put it bottom case up and
gently rap with a rubber hammer to break the 'seal' of the gasket
sealer. On occasion there'd be a dowel pin that'd rusted and made the
cases stubborn. Then I'd take a long, stout screw driver, and cross it
through the transmission shafts, and GENTLY, GENTLY apply upward force
on the screw driver to help part the cases. RESIST the urge to drive
something like a chisel or flat screw driver into the case parting seam.
If the cases don't part relatively easily, take a look around and be
sure you haven't missed a bolt or negleted to remove the shift shaft
(not that I EVER did that, noooooo not ME!).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:09:51 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Like father like ....
I was just looking through an issue of Roadrace World reading an
article on Rodney Fee's 1996 125GP season.
What caught my eye was when he mentioned that after one of the
Spanish races he spent time in the hospitality truck belonging to the
team of Angel Nieto, Jr.
There are certainly plenty of parent/child racing dynasties, but I
hadn't been aware that Angel Nieto had a child, much less that he was
racing at the international level.
For those of you that are hazy, Nieto rode Derbi, Bultaco (and I
think a season on either the Kreidler or Jamarthi) 50/80/125s during
"The Golden Years" of the 60/70s. He's apparently a bit
superstitious, so you have to be careful to mention that he won 12 +
1 World Championships in the small GP classes (not 13!).
The tiddlers were soooo cool. Is there anyone on the list who has
any vintage tiddler roadracers - not so much the TA125, but the
exotics - CR110/CR93 Honda, Kriedler 50/80, etc?
There was also an interesting article on a big-4 stroke endurance
racer's first rides on an RS125. Lots of food for thought on the
difference in big and little bikes.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 12:23:49 +0100
From: "Stephen Williams"
Subject: VintRR Re:Like father like ....tiddler racing
Michael,
Don't know about anyone on the list having one, but there is (or was at the
time of going to press) a Van Veen Kreidler 50 offered for sale by a
Jean-Marie Comp_re who has two. One is the 1971 Jan De Vries factory bike,
the other is a similar privateer bike of the same period. He can be
contacted on (Belgium) 087 315579 (fax).
These bikes were track tested by Alan Cathcart in the March 97 issue of the
UK mag Motorcycle Classics.
I think there's another Nieto competing in the Euro 125 championship. I'm
pretty sure there was more than one on the graid at the recent Albacete
round. Perhaps another sibling or cousin?
Stephen Williams
- ----------
> From: Michael Moore
> To: vintage-roadrace@list.sirius.com;
lightweight-roadrace@list.sirius.com
> Subject: VintRR Like father like ....
> Date: 05 April 1997 06:09
>
> I was just looking through an issue of Roadrace World reading an
> article on Rodney Fee's 1996 125GP season.
>
> What caught my eye was when he mentioned that after one of the
> Spanish races he spent time in the hospitality truck belonging to the
> team of Angel Nieto, Jr.
>
> There are certainly plenty of parent/child racing dynasties, but I
> hadn't been aware that Angel Nieto had a child, much less that he was
> racing at the international level.
>
> For those of you that are hazy, Nieto rode Derbi, Bultaco (and I
> think a season on either the Kreidler or Jamarthi) 50/80/125s during
> "The Golden Years" of the 60/70s. He's apparently a bit
> superstitious, so you have to be careful to mention that he won 12 +
> 1 World Championships in the small GP classes (not 13!).
>
> The tiddlers were soooo cool. Is there anyone on the list who has
> any vintage tiddler roadracers - not so much the TA125, but the
> exotics - CR110/CR93 Honda, Kriedler 50/80, etc?
>
> There was also an interesting article on a big-4 stroke endurance
> racer's first rides on an RS125. Lots of food for thought on the
> difference in big and little bikes.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
>
> Michael Moore
> Euro Spares, SF CA
> Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
> Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide
for constructors"
> http://www.eurospares.com
> AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 06:44:08 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Re:Like father like ....tiddler racing
> time of going to press) a Van Veen Kreidler 50 offered for sale by a
> Jean-Marie Compere who has two. One is the 1971 Jan De Vries factory bike,
> the other is a similar privateer bike of the same period. He can be
> These bikes were track tested by Alan Cathcart in the March 97 issue of the
> UK mag Motorcycle Classics.
Hello Stephen,
I saw the review, and I'd love to have one (or both), but, alas,
there isn't any money in the motorcycle fund for expensive
collectibles (only for extremely cheap collectibles). 50cc road
racers are, as some say here in the States, cute as a bug's ear.
That is one of the attractions that being able to build my own
chassis has for me - I can then afford to have lots of really trick
bikes, at least as soon as I can get around to building them.
One scheduled project is to build a Derbi 80/Linto style space frame
to take one of my Honda S90 engines. I've picked up a set of wheels
from a Kawasaki AR80 (very similar looking to Campagnolo mags), and
have some 32mm Marzocchi forks that I have to shorten up. This
should be a fun little cafe racer. I've also done some preliminary
sketches and accumulated some parts (valves, springs, guides,
tappets) for a 2v DOHC head for the 90. One thing I never run short
of is future projects!
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 09:55:42 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR Re:Like father like ....tiddler racing
Stephen Williams wrote:
>
>
>exotics - CR110/CR93 Honda, Kriedler 50/80, etc?
> .......
>
>
Atlantic Motorcycles LTD, in the UK has two CR93's for sale one is red,
unfaired and VERY ratty, it looks (from the pictures I have of it) like
a street version that's had the lights and street gear removed, which
was very common in that period. There's also a faired version, which I
don't have much information about. The red one was going for about
$34,000. Now then, let's see 2nd mortgage, live on peanut butter for 20
years, hmmmm.. Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:04:38 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Re:Like father like ....tiddler racing
> Atlantic Motorcycles LTD, in the UK has two CR93's for sale one is red,
> unfaired and VERY ratty, it looks (from the pictures I have of it) like
> a street version that's had the lights and street gear removed, which
> was very common in that period. There's also a faired version, which I
> don't have much information about. The red one was going for about
> $34,000. Now then, let's see 2nd mortgage, live on peanut butter for 20
> years, hmmmm.. Ellis
Hello Ellis,
At those prices, making your own cylinder heads doesn't seem like
such a bad deal after all! Building the replica chassis is the cheap
part of the project, even if you have to buy expensive wheels/forks.
What was George Beale wanting for the 250/4 Benelli replica - $100K
or so? You might as well scrape up a little extra money and go for
the four cylinder that is all brand new.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 12:36:44 -0600
From: fr8liner
Subject: VintRR Yet another intro...
Hi all,
Thanks to Michael for starting the list and doing a good job of it. Based
on initial traffic this will probably be a great list. I'll ramble a bit.
My name is Gordon Kline, I live in Wisconsin, I'm a Guzzi fan, and this will
be my third year racing a cobbled up Guzzi with the MidWest Championship Cup
series. I'm out there for the fun of it, mostly trying to avoid getting
lapped, and trying not to be last. My best finish has been a 5th place at
Road America (out of seven, but I did actually manage to pass a guy on his
Ducati and hold him off, so I try to not consider it as a default wood). I
don't attend all of the local events, but try to do a many as I can. I've
only been running one class per weekend (lightweight twins), in the past
it's been Friday practice and race on Saturday. I race CCS because there
are more events close to home, and I have a small cash and time budget. I
live about 40 minutes from Blackhawk Farms Raceway, and 2.5 hours from Road
America, so it's convenient to race CCS. It's been tough trying to keep up
with the Honda Hawks and EX500s though.
I'd really like to run the midwest AHRMA events, always think that I will,
but it's not in the cards again this year. My motor is currently an 850, I
have almost all the parts to make it a 750, but I haven't done it yet. I
have to be in my brother's wedding on the day of the AHRMA event at Road
America this year, and it's killing me to think about it. That's the way it
is. I'll spectate on Sunday.
So, again thanks to Michael and the rest of y'all for sharing your
experiences with the group. This will be fun. Hoping to learn a lot.
Peace,
Gordon Kline
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 17:45:58 +0100
From: Guzziman
Subject: VintRR Tiddler racing
Michael Moore wrote:
>
> > time of going to press) a Van Veen Kreidler 50 offered for sale by a
> > Jean-Marie Compere who has two. One is the 1971 Jan De Vries factory bike,
> > the other is a similar privateer bike of the same period. He can be
> > These bikes were track tested by Alan Cathcart in the March 97 issue of the
> > UK mag Motorcycle Classics.
Hello all,
Have to keep my eye on that one. A month ago I took a Honda CR93 and
a Van Veen Kreidler 50cc from 1971 from a friend of mine to a
motorcycle show here in Holland. Both bikes were restored to mint
condition by himself and will be running again in this years Classic
Racing events here in Holland. The Honda was a crime to rebuild,
since he purchased it as a basket case. He even had to sand-cast
himself a new carter-halve, since the old one was cracked. Amongst
many other items he also made a new exhaust system for the bike. The
Van Veen Kreidler looks like a dream. Me too like these bikes very
well. 50cc Racing used to be very popular in Holland. Jan de Vries
was Dutch, so was Aalt Toersen (former 50cc worldrecord
speedholder). Jamathi was Dutch as well, JAn THIel, MArtin Mijwaart
were two of the three founders. Jan Thiel still is a very known
racing constructor here in Europe.
There are quite a few 50cc racing bikes left in Holland, many
Itom's, Kreidler's, Van Veen Kreidler's, Zundapp-based 50cc racing
bikes. Also special fourstrokes as Motom, Moto Morini can be found
as pukka racers on the revived 50cc scheme here in Holland. They
race in the Classic Racing Team events, which is a joint venture of
a Club named "Oud maar Sterk" (Old but Strong) and the Dutch
Aermacchi HD motorclub. The first specialises heavily on the 50cc
racing bikes, while the second consists of many classic Italian
racing bikes owners and former racers. Many Aermacchi Ala do'Oro's,
Bimota/HD twins (even two ex. Walter Villa watercooled 250 and 350
twin races with them, as well as a 500cc twin with four carbs.).
Other exotics are a NSU Sportmax, with an 305cc ex. John Surtees
engine and a perfectly remade alloy-fairing, tank and seat. The guy
who campaigns it used to be an ex-Yamaha factory race mecchanic and
later the personal mecchanic of Phil Read, who, incognito, can be
found dicing around on the early Yamaha two strokes as well during
the Classic Racing Team events.
The man who owns the Van Veen Kreidler and the Honda CR 93 was a
good friend of Frits van Veen, builder of the Van Veen Kreidler's.
The van Veen workshops used to be located on his merchandise
premises. They knew each other when they both used to race at the
Dutch National championships and the more known foreign races the
end of the sixties/beginning of the seventies. When van Veen stopped
with his Kreidler and Rotary enterprise, he bought all the remaining
stock and, above all, engine and frame moulds of both the rotary's
as the 50cc's. He is capable of building any 50cc Van Veen Kreidler
ever build and all Van Veen rotary's!! He owns all Van Veen Kreidler
racing and motorcross bikes, as well as both rotary models (with and
without fairing) and all prototypes. I am pretty sure he owns the
1972 Van Veen Worldschampionship winning machine as well, though am
not 100% sure, reading the info suplied on this list regarding the
Belgium advertisement.
Anyway, I have a deep love of the 50cc's. BTW, I know Luciano
Gazzola, several times double Italian road race and hillclimb
Champion on Guazzoni in the late sixties. He used to race endurance
for Guzzi and Laverda as well. Also he used to race for MV-Agusta,
Tomos (50cc!), Aermacchi (408cc works). I mention this beceause he
still owns his first great love: the 50cc Guazzoni he first became
Italian Champion with. I have some pics. of him riding both the 50cc
Guazzoni as the 50cc Tomos. I own his first ever street bike (Gilera
98cc Giubileo) and his last street bike, a Moto Guzzi V35 Imola II.
Both still have his own personal license plate. I love them, in
fact, the Imola stands amongst others in my living room as a
permanent reminder of our terrific friendship. Reader's of Classic
Bike can see a picture of him in the March issue on page 7. Luciano
Gazzola was the main test rider on the development of the Guzzi
V7Special --> 1969World Record breakers --> V7Sport --> 850Le Mans.
Also he rode many, many endurance races for Guzzi in the beginning
untill the mid of the seventies. Did you guys knew that Mike
Hailwood even was asked to track test and race the V7Sport derived
racing bikes of the factory? He tested them on Monza in 1971 (just
before the V7Sport was introduced). It went well, but they could not
reach agreement on his riding fees... This fact is not known in the
general Guzzi world, but true. Gazzola was a good friend of him and
he has a lot of pictures and correspondence with Mike the Bike to
proove this rare fact.
Very nice to read the 50cc's are so popular in the U.S.A. and the
U.K. as well!
Michael, keep up the good work!
Sincerely,
Ivar de Gier
Guzziman@pi.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:58:57 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Yet another intro... and F750 stuff
> My name is Gordon Kline, I live in Wisconsin, I'm a Guzzi fan, and this will
> be my third year racing a cobbled up Guzzi with the MidWest Championship Cup
Hello Gordon,
Welcome to the list.
I'm going to jump off from your post with some F750 comments.
I've raced and own(ed) bevel-drive Ducati 750s, Laverda 750s, and
own big and little twin Guzzis and a Trident. I've seen the insides
of XS650 Yamaha twins, and have sat on a friend's 750 MV Agusta, so
I think I can say I have some experience with the possible F750 race
bikes.
I think the Guzzi is often overlooked by people when considering
building a vintage racer. Maybe it is because people think first of
their fine touring capabilities. However, from what I've heard, the
only reason Reno Leoni switched from running the Guzzi to the Ducati
was money - Ducati would give him some and Guzzi wouldn't. The Guzzi
was as fast as the Ducati.
Guzzis are very strong, and have a decent chassis to start with
(though I keep wanting to take a hacksaw and torch to my SP frame,
but then I want to do that to all the stock frames). The one
drawback is the shaft drive. Actually, it isn't the shaft it is the
heavy rear drive case which adds a lot of unsprung weight and makes
it difficult/expensive to change gearing. With current AHRMA rim
size rules there isn't any problem fitting the maximum tire into a
Guzzi swing arm. You can also mix and match a lot of parts (just
like the VW Beetle) and donor bikes can be had at reasonable prices.
You can even BUY parts for them.
When building an engine it really doesn't seem to matter too much
what it is - cost is determined by the number of cylinders - so much
money per hole. A first rate engine is going to be expensive, no
matter what it is - but some will be more expensive than others.
So if you are thinking about building an F750 bike, give the Guzzi
some serious consideration. Then, of course, you'll go out and buy
whatever you lusted after anyway. At least you'll be able to say
that you considered your options rationally before acting on an
emotional basis!
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:06:43 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Tiddler racing
Hello Ivar,
Thanks for your long and informative post.
This is just the kind of thing I've grown to like about the Net (and
hoped would be a part of my lists). People who know/have all kinds
of interesting stuff share it with the rest of us, and the general
knowledge level rises all the way around.
Plus, I get to interact with various people I've (previously) only
read about - Tony Foale (noted chassis guru), Dane Kurth - who with
her husband Rudi were a top GP sidecar team on Rudi's innovative
outfits, etc.
Speaking of the Kurth's - do we have any sidecar racers on the list?
Cheers
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 07:30:10 -1000
From: bsagsdgw@maui.net (Webster Family)
Subject: Re: VintRR Yet another intro...
Gordon,
Just tell your brother to re schedual his wedding. Better yet have it at
the track.
Dave
David Webster
Maui, Hawaii
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #7
**************************
VintRR-digest Sunday, April 6 1997 Volume 01 : Number 008
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 23:00:59 +0100
From: Guzziman
Subject: VintRR Guzzi racing/Gordon Kline
fr8liner wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks to Michael for starting the list and doing a good job of it. Based
> on initial traffic this will probably be a great list. I'll ramble a bit.
> My name is Gordon Kline, I live in Wisconsin, I'm a Guzzi fan, and this will
> be my third year racing a cobbled up Guzzi with the MidWest Championship Cup
> series.
SNIP SNIP
> My motor is currently an 850, I
> have almost all the parts to make it a 750, but I haven't done it yet. I
> have to be in my brother's wedding on the day of the AHRMA event at Road
> America this year, and it's killing me to think about it. That's the way it
> is. I'll spectate on Sunday.
Hello Gordon, nice to read another Guzzi fanatic is on this
list. Congratulations in converting your bike to 750cc.
Interesting for you to know is that Guzzi broke a lot of
Worldrecords back in 1969. They were heavily converted V7
Special bikes. During the sesions it became clear that, if
Guzzi would ever return to racing (which was the idea!) they
needed another frame. A year later Lino Tonti had it finished
and the first testrides were made on the Monza circuit. This
first bike could be seen as the predecessor of the V7 Sport.
The V7Sport was designed with F750 races in mind.
One of the chief-mecchanics on the world-record breaking
machines was an Italian gentleman named Bruno Scola. Together
with Tonti he was responsible to tune the engine. They also
builded the 200mile Imola racing "V7Sports". That he did a
brilliant job became clear after the highly succesfull
worldrecord braking sessions and the endurance successes Guzzi
achieved. What is interesting for all of you who want to
campaign a Guzzi in the F750 class, is that this man, Bruno
Scola, is still alive and owns his motorcycle shop in Northern
Italy. He is known for Guzzi tuning all over Europe, though not
much know of his Guzzi-worksracing -related career. You can
send an engine to him, discuss the specs and he builds it. Up
to know nothing much... But, he is especially known for his
knowledge of the Guzzi F750 racing bikes. He can rebuild 850cc
Guzzi to 750cc racing spec. This 750cc racing spec. is exactly
the same as he builded for the Guzzi factory an odd 25 years
ago. This means he garantees it to deliver at least 95hp!
Another possibility is contacting Joost Jochems at E-mail:
misano@pi.net. Joost is very famous for his enormous knowledge
of Guzzi V-twin racing bikes. At this time he is building a
short stroke rear wheel 103hp (!) engine for his
Misano-Swallower racing team. Their fabulous racing Guzzi has a
Hossack front fork and chain rear drive. In my honest opinion
Joost is at the worldwide top of Guzzi racing and tuning!! He
can deliver and makes himself very special racing parts. So
keep his E-mail adress close to hand if you want to tune your
Guzzi seriously!
Sincerely,
Ivar de Gier
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 14:25:09 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Guzzi racing/Gordon Kline
> Guzzi to 750cc racing spec. This 750cc racing spec. is exactly
> the same as he builded for the Guzzi factory an odd 25 years
> ago. This means he garantees it to deliver at least 95hp!
> Ivar de Gier
Hello Ivar,
Is there any chance a typo in the hp shown above? If not is that a
rear wheel or crank figure?
When my Laverda was dynoed in the late 1980s (calibrated water brake
driven by the chain from the countershaft sprocket) it was a solid
74bhp at 8000rpm. Power hadn't tailed off, but since that was
pretty much where I wanted to run the red line (for longevity) we
didn't run it any higher. With a modern cam design and a bit bigger
valves in it my tuner is expecting 76-78 hp, maybe a bit better. I
think that mid 90's bhp is very good for a front-running National
Harley XR750 (the only other current two valve 750 I can think of),
and that is not by any stretch tuned as an endurance race motor.
Plus the HD has 25 continuous years of development at a National
racing level, which I don't think most of our vintage bikes can
claim. Actually, 95 bhp is pretty darn good for a 1000cc Guzzi race
bike. Very good 750cc Tri/BSA triples run mid to high 80s I think
(perhaps Phil Pick can chime in here - he should know if anyone
does).
I'm not impugning Mr. Scala, as I've certainly heard of his tuning
prowess, I'm just suspecting that we may be talking bhp taken from
different points. If the 95bhp is at the crank, then if we allow 10%
loss through the transmission (with a bit more for the extra
right-angle drive in a Guzzi) that drops it down to about 84-85 bhp,
which still sounds a bit high but achieveable on an absolutely first
class sprint engine. 95bhp at the rear wheel sounds like someone is
doing some advertising, especially with 25 year old technology.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 17:05:28 -0800 (PST)
From: John Goodpaster
Subject: VintRR AHRMA
>> My question is for any of the more knowledgeable AHRMA-types out there:
>> This machine is definitely a period piece, faithfully put back together
>> with all the right parts. But being a 750cc OHV machine, I'm limited as to
>> what classes I can race it under AHRMA. There's also the issue of the
>> aluminum fairing... It's a work of art, and I sure don't want to lose it.
>> It's barely larger then the number plate that is painted on the front, but
>> it's still a fairing.
>
>Could you pull a mold off the fairing and make a fibreglass replica for
>race use? As you say, it would be a shame to crunch it.
>
>Would AHMRA have a problem with that?
If that fairing was available and is period I do not think making a
fibreglas replica would be a problem. You can check with Jack Turner of
rules and elegibility.
And thanks to Mark Hatten for the kind words for AHRMA. We have a
few people who get very upset when they cannot have things their way and go
to any means to discredit a very good organization. AHRMA has only the
interest of the riders at heart and there is NO political disention what so
ever.
I will be glad to answer any questions about rules, elegibility and
tech. Or , get you in touch with someone who can....................
John Goodpaster
AHRMA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 17:09:39 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR AHRMA
> I will be glad to answer any questions about rules, elegibility and
> tech. Or , get you in touch with someone who can....................
>
> John Goodpaster
> AHRMA
Hello John,
If you hadn't signed up (and are you going to get on the vintage-dirt
list too?) I was going to send you a message to try and cajole you
into subscribing.
Now the next time we have trouble at tech and you aren't there we can
tell them "but John told me on the Internet that it would be OK for
me to leave that unsafetywired this time, snivel snivel".
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 21:45:51 -0500
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR Re:Like father like ....tiddler racing
> At those prices, making your own cylinder heads doesn't seem like
> such a bad deal after all! Building the replica chassis is the cheap
> part of the project, even if you have to buy expensive wheels/forks.
>
> What was George Beale wanting for the 250/4 Benelli replica - $100K
> or so? You might as well scrape up a little extra money and go for
> the four cylinder that is all brand new.
>
>
>
It's a problem I've always had. In the '60's when the CR93s were new, I
couldn't afford 'em. Now that I'm older..... I still can't afford it.
Sigh....
Now if I could only talk George into building say an RC161, now that
might spark my intrest. On the other hand, if he did that, AHRMA
wouldn't let me race it because it would be a "new" bike, and not
"original". ;-D Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 18:47:10 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Additions to the Laverda weights page
The Barry Watkins articles on building light MX bikes in the early
1970s got me into weighing parts on my bikes. Several weeks ago I
started a page on my web site to record the SF2RR Laverda road
racer's component weights as it goes back together.
I've just added some more component weights. The front forks were
already there, and I've added swing arm, front wheel, rear wheel,
rear dampers/springs, exhaust and frame weights. Remaining are the
footpegs and mounts, battery/electronics/tach, clip ons and hand
controls, front brake caliper/mount/master cylinder, tank, seat,
fairing and mounts, engine stuff, and anything else I've skipped.
I've totaled the individual components at the bottom of the page.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 21:23:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Paul C. Kurth"
Subject: Re: VintRR AHRMA
John
I have an AHRMA question for you. Where can I get a copy of the
rules for Vintage 1?
Cameron
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 21:10:38 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR AHRMA
> John
> I have an AHRMA question for you. Where can I get a copy of the
> rules for Vintage 1?
>
> Cameron
Hello Cameron,
That sounds like a WERA class, and John is chief tech inspector for
AHRMA.
The main AHRMA classes are GP/Premier, F750, Sportsman, Classic 60s,
Class C, Pre 51 (at least that was the class when I won my sole
National race on Fred Mork's Garden Gate Manx), and the Formula
250/500 classes. There might be one or two other more recent
vintage classes, but my rulebook isn't falling readily to hand at
the moment.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 21:38:22 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR AHRMA stuff (was like father ...)
> It's a problem I've always had. In the '60's when the CR93s were new, I
> couldn't afford 'em. Now that I'm older..... I still can't afford it.
> Sigh....
Hello Ellis,
I think this is one of those "trying to hit a moving target"
situations. The more money you get, the more money they want.
> Now if I could only talk George into building say an RC161, now that
> might spark my interest. On the other hand, if he did that, AHRMA
> wouldn't let me race it because it would be a "new" bike, and not
> "original". ;-D
>Ellis
I know you are joking, but AHRMA is actually pretty receptive to
modern replicas that are accurate. I think they've even decided to
let the India Enfields be OK for the different vintage classes
(though I imagine they'll need to replace the Indian Mikuni carb with
an AMAL). Now if I could just get them to reverse the rule banning
the modern Kei'hin CRs on my CR216. I really dread having to take
them off and put much-less-accurate-historically Dell'Ortos on the
bike.
All in all, AHRMA is doing a fine job (except for my carbs, mumble
mumble) and I'm very appreciative of the hard work that people like
John, Fred, Dick Mann, etc do. There's no doubt that I certainly
don't have the time/energy to do it if they didn't.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:49:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Elin Phinizy
Subject: VintRR Re V1 #7 & 50 cc's
Ellis....
>If the cases don't part relatively easily, take a look around and be
>sure you haven't missed a bolt or negleted to remove the shift shaft
>(not that I EVER did that, noooooo not ME!).
Never have made that mistake either, nope. Never.
Ivar,
Regarding 50cc events.... USCRA (United States Classic Racing Assoc.) is
organizing a 50 cc. class in the states. This is as a result of Bob Coy's,
one of the USCRA founders. He is intent on importing some 50cc engines into
the US in order to build a model called "The Black Fly" for the 50 cc
class. (If you were ever to spend early spring in New Hampshire and Vt.,
you would recognize the black fly as a pernicious little 'midge' that is
forever buzzing about one's head and raising the odd welt from its bite -
hardly a forgetful experience.)
I gather, the 50 cc world is an experience unto itself. I was thinking of
taking a lightweight Gilera (frame and components from a 98 or 106) and
implanting a 50cc engine just for this class. Project #????.
I shall send your post and address to him and ask him if he would like to
add anything to the list, as I think he might have alot to add and may have
an 'old timer' 50cc. ("Oud maar Sterk" ).Thanks again for your interesting
post.
Should anyone be interested in USCRA please contact John Strempfer at
'Ducatijon @ aol.com'. I am posting his press release regarding our annual
event the Monday prior to "Loudon". It's an absolutely delightful venue and
a fitting beginning to Laconia Race Week with some very tasty bikes and
sidecars being raced (the usual Beemers, a Harley rig, a couple of Yamahas
, the odd Triumph, and a really snarly, rorty Norton Commando sidehack).
According to some, Keene was the precursor to "Laconia" and a major event
in the area. It was discontinued, as a race venue, when several people were
killed; wherupon, the event was moved to Laconia...
New England has a wealth of racing history.
Jay
>From:Ducatijon@aol.com
>Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:28:08 -0500 (EST)
***********************************************************
BEN CAMPANELE RETURNS FOR THE A.M.A. SANCTIONED * U. S. VINTAGE GRAND PRIX *
Legendary Harley-Davidson factory rider and TWO TIME DAYTONA
winner Ben Campanele returns to Rally/Race week for the * UNITED STATES
VINTAGE GRAND PRIX * at New Hampshire International Speedway on June 9,
1997.
Ben, a native of Worcester, Massachusetts, now living in
California, was one of the greatest AMA
riders of the 30's and 40's. He was famous in the Northeast for his ability
to win at roadracing, hill climbing, TT racing, and dirt track. With his
Harley-Davidson Team rider, Babe Tancrede, he stormed many of the forgotten
tracks like Keene and Athol. Possibly his most noteworthy National
accomplishment was
winning the prestigious Daytona Beach races in 1938 and 1939. It took iron
men with tremendous skill to wrestle the evil handling bikes on the beach
and sand covered asphalt of the old Daytona event. Ben
also enjoyed great success in front of his home fans at the old "Laconia
Nationals" held at the Belknap Recreational Area in Guilford, New Hampshire.
Ben will return for the * UNITED STATES VINTAGE GRAND PRIX * to be
honored for his outstanding racing accomplishments. He will be available to
sign memorabilia and talk to old/new friends. Additionally, he will lead
the Lap of Honor around the twisty New Hampshire International Speedway
race track for the Gypsy Tour participants. Monday's Gypsy Tour will once
again make NHIS and the * UNITED STATES VINTAGE GRAND PRIX * their ride
destination.
The * UNITED STATES VINTAGE GRAND PRIX * has turned out to be the
premiere Vintage motorcycle road race in the country, it has captured the
atmosphere and character of racing in the past. It is low key, has
outstanding competition featuring the best and fastest vintage racers in
North America, it is
inexpensive($10.00 admission gets you everywhere, including infield
parking, access to the paddock area and upper pit row), it is a spectator
accessible allowing you to mix and talk with the competitors an reunion
riders from the past. Previous attendees have been racing legends Gary
Nixon, the late Roger Reiman, Jody Nichols, Don Emde, Ed fisher, Kurt
Liebman, Jack Canfield, Dick Carey, Joe Bolger, Whitey Anderson, Butch
Baer, Nate Sheldon, and others.There may be some surprises in store for Ben
and the attendees. You just never know who might show up.
The day is packed with over 15 vintage races including the NORTH
AMERICAN VINTAGE SIDECAR Championships and the first round of the American
vs. Canadian Vintage Challenge Series. The sound of unmuffled vintage
racers will fill the air as these old gems race head to head at full song
the way the did in the past. Norton, BSA, Triumph, Harley-Davidson, Ducati,
Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Vincent, Indian, Gilera. They're all
there.
Also featured at the * UNITED STATES VINTAGE GRAND PRIX * will be a
national round of the RD Challenge Series devoted strictly to the RD
Yamahas and North America's first 50cc Vintage Grand Prix.
Rounding out the action packed day will be the third gathering of
the REUNION RIDERS. The
Reunion Riders are the riders that raced at the old "Laconia National" at
the Belknap recreational area prior to 1964. Many of these men bring their
old race machines and memorabilia to swap stories about the glory days of
Americas racing past. These are the genuine and true American heroes
unencumbered by the aloofness that isolates the 'famous' of today. These
great racing men actually take the time to talk to you and are thrilled to
recount Americas motorcycle racing past. Miss this event and you've missed
a moment of racing history. It is a once in a lifetime gathering of the
sights, sounds, action, and men that thrilled generations past.
The *** UNITED STATES CLASSIC RACING ASSOCIATION *** is the oldest
continuously
operating vintage motorcycle racing organization in the United States and
holds a charter with the American Motorcyclist Association(AMA).
MEDIA CONTACT:
John Strempfer
131 Webster Mills Rd
Chichester NH 03234
603-435-8188
uscra@aol.com e-mail
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 12:54:42 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: VintRR GUZZI hp/shaft drives
Michael Moore wrote:
>
> > Guzzi to 750cc racing spec. This 750cc racing spec. is exactly
> > the same as he builded for the Guzzi factory an odd 25 years
> > ago. This means he garantees it to deliver at least 95hp!
>
> > Ivar de Gier
>
> Hello Ivar,
>
> Is there any chance a typo in the hp shown above? If not is that a
> rear wheel or crank figure?
No, it is not a typing error, and it's a crank figure.
> I'm not impugning Mr. Scola, as I've certainly heard of his tuning
> prowess, I'm just suspecting that we may be talking bhp taken from
> different points. If the 95bhp is at the crank, then if we allow 10%
> loss through the transmission (with a bit more for the extra
> right-angle drive in a Guzzi) that drops it down to about 84-85 bhp,
> which still sounds a bit high but achieveable on an absolutely first
> class sprint engine. 95bhp at the rear wheel sounds like someone is
> doing some advertising, especially with 25 year old technology.
As stated previously, you will get a guarantee on the 95hp figure at
the crank. He runs the engine on his own dynometer, giving you the
result and the chance for a second opinion if you don't trust it.
Many people can't believe the 95hp evolving from such a classic
engine design, but believe me it is true, in my garage is a 1974
proof of it. I think the 10% transmission loss is too little. A
figure between 20-25% for a well build-up shaftdrive covers it
better. Once Dr. John told me for LONG distance racing events, this
is a better (permanent) figure then a chain, beceause a chain drive
wears out to an extend that it exeeds the 20-25% figure on these
long distance racing events. Anyone knows where the brake-even point
lies, maybe 500km?
BEARS/BOTT racing is very popular here. On of the Dutch BOTT teams
campaigns a 1100BMW boxer, not with injection, but with carbs. Last
Daytona, he lead the BOTT race in a comfortable distance, untill 4
rounds to the end his engine broke down (worn big-end, too little
lubrication). The rider's name is Lex van Dijk (also rode the
Supermono's at Daytona, can't remember his placing (anyone knows?).
The BMW tuner is named Rudi Ottenhof, lives in Amsterdam. Team's
name is R.O. Scuderia BMW.
BTW, Ottenhof served in the Royal Dutch Army together with my
father.
Talking about coincidences....
BTW, those Guzzi worldrecordbreakers only weighed 158kg's and did
the 1000 (!) km with an average speed of 205,932 km/hr.
Thanks for the reactions on the tiddler racing and Guzzi hp figure,
Michael, and again,
Keep up the good work!
Ivar de Gier
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 08:12:47 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR GUZZI hp/shaft drives
> No, it is not a typing error, and it's a crank figure.
Hello Ivar,
That is what I thought.
Have you had a proliferation of dynomometers in Europe of late? Over
here it seems like every other dealer has installed a Dynojet or
similar intertial dyno.
My friend Craig doesn't think much of the inertial dyno for serious
engine development, though it certainly is much better than no dyno
at all! He prefers a water brake where the engine is mounted on a
stand - it makes it a lot easier to swap cams, change timing, replace
pistons with holes in them, etc. He's also told me that there is
more to running and interpreting dyno results than just reading the
dyno owner's manual.
I'm definitely a believer in dyno tuning. When my Laverda first went
on the dyno it was doing 50 rear wheel bhp in as-raced trim. Boring
the carbs from 38 to 40mm, longer intake tracts, jetting, getting the
squish set (I had been supplied pistons from the vary late SFC which
have a 2mm shorter deck height, so getting this set helped the
compression a lot), switching to a RITA ignition, and getting the
carburation and ignition tuned in picked up 24 bhp.
When we put my 216cc Honda twin on the dyno, (after a pleasing first
run at Laguna Seca) it was putting out about 12 rear wheel bhp. With
just velocity stack length changes (longer), jetting and timing it
went up to 21 bhp. Much of these changes were in the .5 to 1 bhp
range, and I doubt that most of us have a sufficiently sensitive seat
of the pants to be able to register that small of a change.
> BTW, those Guzzi worldrecordbreakers only weighed 158kg's and did
> the 1000 (!) km with an average speed of 205,932 km/hr.
That is a very good weight (approx 350#) - didn't those bikes run the
Ambassador style frame instead of the Tonti/LeMans style frame? I'll
have to try an find the article on the ZDS Guzzi racer that used the
old-style frame and see what weight was claimed for it. Their big
change chassis change was to a Rickman fork and disc brake front
wheel.
I know that my SP frame and swing arm aren't particularly light
weight, though I haven't gotten them on the scale yet. Bevel-drive
Ducati and Laverda SF frames are also quite heavy, as is a
narrow-case Ducati frame. The Italians seemed to have a love affair
with thick-wall tubing. The frame and swing arm I built for my
Laverda racer total 25.375 pounds, though that is the bare parts. I
think that is about a 40 pound weight saving over the stock SF2 frame
and swing arm. It certainly helped in the reduction of weight from
the 500 pounds stock to around 330 pounds.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 10:19:07 -0500
From: Mike and Rebecca Stenger
Subject: VintRR 1919 Sunbeam
Ad in Omaha, Ne. Sunday paper:
1919 Sunbeam TT racer, 500cc, perfect collectors piece, $8200,
(402) 467-4126
Not that I would buy it, or you would want to race it, but does anyone
know anything about this bike?
Mike Stenger
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 08:29:05 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Guzzi singles
Hello Ivar,
You mentioned in your intro that you have some factory Guzzi racers,
and I'm guessing that even if they aren't singles you are probably
very knowledgeable about them.
When my friend Craig was living in England in 1990 he got to visit
with Arthur Wheeler (for those of you unfamiliar with the name AW was
a top Guzzi privateer in GPs in the 50/60s - he was 4th in 1954 and
3rd in 1962 in the 250GP championships on a Guzzi) and was briefly
able to poke around AW's race bikes.
Craig said that AW had built some replacement spares for the bikes
(possibly transmission parts) but that the bikes themselves were
pretty simple in design (probably due to the genius/good sense of
Carlo Guzzi and Ing. Carcano).
Do you know what happened to the planned production by Guzzi of
replica 350GP singles? I'm sure they would have been far out of the
reach of the normal chap/ette, but there seem to be plenty of folks
with money interested in the vintage scene, and I'd have thought they
could have sold a production run of 10 or so within a reasonable
amount of time. Even if they'd just make engines that would be neat
- - I think you can buy a G50 or Manx engine for around US$8-10,000,
and the Guzzi chassis wouldn't be that hard to construct.
I enjoy seeing G50s and 7Rs on the track, but I'd REALLY like to see
a Guzzi single in action.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 20:16:45 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: VintRR Wheeler and the Guzzi singles
Michael Moore wrote:
>
> Hello Ivar,
>
> You mentioned in your intro that you have some factory Guzzi racers,
> and I'm guessing that even if they aren't singles you are probably
> very knowledgeable about them.
>
> When my friend Craig was living in England in 1990 he got to visit
> with Arthur Wheeler (for those of you unfamiliar with the name AW was
> a top Guzzi privateer in GPs in the 50/60s - he was 4th in 1954 and
> 3rd in 1962 in the 250GP championships on a Guzzi) and was briefly
> able to poke around AW's race bikes.
> Craig said that AW had built some replacement spares for the bikes
> (possibly transmission parts) but that the bikes themselves were
> pretty simple in design (probably due to the genius/good sense of
> Carlo Guzzi and Ing. Carcano).
The single cylinder Guzzi racers are of very simple design indeed.
Simplicity and leight-weight was Carcano's main forte. The reason why
the later Guzzi's were dark green was due to the fact that he was
against paint just for weight reasons. The magnesium alloy
fairings-tanks on the Guzzi's were very prone to corrosion. That's why
they only carried a dark green primer, which was selected as well on
the lowest weight possible. The last year they raced even the spokes
were made as thin as possible. Sometimes this even lead to braking, and
not finishing the race.... The last 350dohc Guzzi only weighed 98kg,
and was converted to magnet ignition instead of a coil in order to save
weight. They had to compete against the mighty Gilera, which had almost
double the hp, but also double the weight, and not as good streamlining
as Guzzi had. If you see the internals of the engine it's a laugh how
simple it is indeed! Lucky me, I might ad.
Arthur Wheeler still campaigns his 250cc racer in the major classic
racing/parading events. Also he is an active IOM visitor, parading his
fantastic 250. He builded his own frame in the fifties, making use of
lightweight Reynolds tubing. In 1995 he paraded his 250 in the IOM
Classic Lap of Honour. He left as last, but came home first in a very
quick time. Another Briton still campaigning is faithfull Guzzi racer
is Trevor Barnes. He is a regular starter in the Dutch Classic T.T.
Assen events.
> Do you know what happened to the planned production by Guzzi of
> replica 350GP singles? I'm sure they would have been far out of the
> reach of the normal chap/ette, but there seem to be plenty of folks
> with money interested in the vintage scene, and I'd have thought they
> could have sold a production run of 10 or so within a reasonable
> amount of time. Even if they'd just make engines that would be neat
> - I think you can buy a G50 or Manx engine for around US$8-10,000,
> and the Guzzi chassis wouldn't be that hard to construct.
They costed 95,000,000 Italian Lire, approx. 45,000US$. Ca. 100 should
be made, but after a half year of enlisting only TWO people made the
necessary deposit. They were Arthur Wheeler and me. I was ready to sell
the house I had at the moment, including my kidney's to get my hand on
one of these bikes, especially since spare parts wouldn't be a problem
for the buyers. Also these bikes would be better to race then the old
ones, since the magnesium alloy is again better prone to cracking then
the 40yrs+ old ones... This cracking is the biggest problem for owners
of these bikes. If it cracks, you're gone completely...
> I enjoy seeing G50s and 7Rs on the track, but I'd REALLY like to see
> a Guzzi single in action.
Me too. However they can be seen every now and then. ALso the V8's, the
factory one and the part-replica of the son of Todero, one of the
original designers/constructors of the bike (together with ing. Giulio
Carcano). I love them.
Bye for now,
Ivar de Gier
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #8
**************************
VintRR-digest Monday, April 7 1997 Volume 01 : Number 009
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 13:21:12 -0500
From: Mike and Rebecca Stenger
Subject: VintRR '69 CB 350 For Sale
Due to too many bikes, (five), I must reluctantly sell my '69 CB 350.
$800 invested, selling for $500. Not stock, but runs great, looks good,
daily rider. In Omaha, Nebraska. Delivery within about 200 miles
possible. If anyone is interested, e-mail me for details and pics.
Or see pics at http://www.dpond.com/~frog/index.html
Mike STenger STOC #372 HSTA #5811 SOHC4 #316 AMA HRCA
'93 ST1100 '89 GB500 '73 CB350F '72 CB500 '69 CB350 For Sale
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 20:43:25 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: VintRR dinometers/Guzzi/Laverda
Michael Moore wrote:
>
> > No, it is not a typing error, and it's a crank figure.
>
> Hello Ivar,
>
> That is what I thought.
>
> Have you had a proliferation of dynomometers in Europe of late? Over
> here it seems like every other dealer has installed a Dynojet or
> similar intertial dyno.
>
> My friend Craig doesn't think much of the inertial dyno for serious
> engine development, though it certainly is much better than no dyno
> at all! He prefers a water brake where the engine is mounted on a
> stand - it makes it a lot easier to swap cams, change timing, replace
> pistons with holes in them, etc. He's also told me that there is
> more to running and interpreting dyno results than just reading the
> dyno owner's manual.
In my opinion the more serious engine tuners and expertised racing
dealers here in Holland most have a Dynojet or other dynometers. Misano,
Holland's most famous and well known sports and racing dealer, also
Guzzi dealer, has a Dynojet as well. He takes it to all circuits where
he runs people's racing bikes on them, giving them advice how to jet and
adjust the carbs for more hp. "Measuring is knowing", is the motto of
Joost, the talented owner of Misano Motors. I am a definate admirer of
his work, especially on Guzzi where my interest lays the deepest.
However, Holland's weekly motorcycle magazine "MOTOR", takes every test
bike they have to his shop, in order for Joost to give his wise opinion
about the bike. In my opinion without a dynometer, whatever type, it is
almost impossible to work seriously on a racing engine. As Joost always
says: "measuring is knowing". He does work on all engines,
classic-modern-Japanese-European-American, it doesn't matter. Also he
has a lot of special parts for many racing bikes. You can contact
this wizard via the following:
Misano Motors
Joost Jochems
De Fok 17A
NL-1742 PC Schagen
Holland
Tel.: 31-224-212050
Fax.: 31-224-217799
E-mail: misano@pi.net
URL: http://www.pi.net/~misano/
> I'm definitely a believer in dyno tuning. When my Laverda first went
> on the dyno it was doing 50 rear wheel bhp in as-raced trim. Boring
> the carbs from 38 to 40mm, longer intake tracts, jetting, getting the
> squish set (I had been supplied pistons from the vary late SFC which
> have a 2mm shorter deck height, so getting this set helped the
> compression a lot), switching to a RITA ignition, and getting the
> carburation and ignition tuned in picked up 24 bhp.
50% Gain on a standard engine! I think a terrific result!
> When we put my 216cc Honda twin on the dyno, (after a pleasing first
> run at Laguna Seca) it was putting out about 12 rear wheel bhp. With
> just velocity stack length changes (longer), jetting and timing it
> went up to 21 bhp. Much of these changes were in the .5 to 1 bhp
> range, and I doubt that most of us have a sufficiently sensitive seat
> of the pants to be able to register that small of a change.
Again very impressive. I don't think I would notice it, but then again,
I don't race...
> > BTW, those Guzzi worldrecordbreakers only weighed 158kg's and did
> > the 1000 (!) km with an average speed of 205,932 km/hr.
>
> That is a very good weight (approx 350#) - didn't those bikes run the
> Ambassador style frame instead of the Tonti/LeMans style frame?
Yes, they carried the old V7 frame. They did the record sessions at
Monza's speed bowl. During the sessions the right-front-lowest nut of
the frame-engine connection hit the tarmac often, making frequent
changes neccesary. This was one of the main reasons for developping the
new frame. The placement of the dinamo in front of the crank made it
possible to build a much lower bike as well. The V7Sport was born...
> I'll
> have to try an find the article on the ZDS Guzzi racer that used the
> old-style frame and see what weight was claimed for it. Their big
> change chassis change was to a Rickman fork and disc brake front
> wheel.
Is that the bike that Mick Grant used to race in the U.S.? I am very
interested in learning more on that bike! Also Michael, I would like to
get a copy of the article you own of Tony Foale's original frame design
that Dr. John copied. This was new to me, and I would like to learn much
more of it.
> I know that my SP frame and swing arm aren't particularly light
> weight, though I haven't gotten them on the scale yet. Bevel-drive
> Ducati and Laverda SF frames are also quite heavy, as is a
> narrow-case Ducati frame. The Italians seemed to have a love affair
> with thick-wall tubing. The frame and swing arm I built for my
> Laverda racer total 25.375 pounds, though that is the bare parts. I
> think that is about a 40 pound weight saving over the stock SF2 frame
> and swing arm. It certainly helped in the reduction of weight from
> the 500 pounds stock to around 330 pounds.
Your Laverda makes me curious. Isn't it hard to campaign a bike like
that in the U.S.? In Italy you see a lot of Laverda's flying around in
the classic F750 events, dicing with the Ducati's, Guzzi's, Suzuki's and
Kawasaki's. I guess for them it must be much easier.
Bye bye,
Ivar de Gier
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:19:42 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Wheeler and the Guzzi singles
> fantastic 250. He builded his own frame in the fifties, making use of
> lightweight Reynolds tubing. In 1995 he paraded his 250 in the IOM
> Classic Lap of Honour. He left as last, but came home first in a very
> quick time. Another Briton still campaigning is faithfull Guzzi racer
> is Trevor Barnes. He is a regular starter in the Dutch Classic T.T.
> Assen events.
Hello Ivar,
Didn't Ken Sprayson of Reynolds build the Wheeler frame for him? I
think I read that Trevor Barnes bought much of AW's bikes when he
retired - is he still racing those bikes or near replicas?
> They costed 95,000,000 Italian Lire, approx. 45,000US$. Ca. 100 should
> be made, but after a half year of enlisting only TWO people made the
> necessary deposit. They were Arthur Wheeler and me. I was ready to sell
> the house I had at the moment, including my kidney's to get my hand on
> one of these bikes, especially since spare parts wouldn't be a problem
> for the buyers. Also these bikes would be better to race then the old
> ones, since the magnesium alloy is again better prone to cracking then
> the 40yrs+ old ones... This cracking is the biggest problem for owners
> of these bikes. If it cracks, you're gone completely...
I surprised at that. I thought they were going to be around
US$100K, and that was why there weren't many takers. At US$45K
you'd think there would be a stampede to put down a deposit. That
is still a lot of money for many of us, but that's not even a very
fancy car in everyday terms, and you'd think that the people who can
afford to build/buy new Manx/G50s or race Brittens would think the
price quite a bargain. The Guzzi engine/trans has to be cheaper to
build than a Manx w/Quaife transmission, especially if it is being
done at the factory instead of as a very limited production
enthusiast job. I'd hope that they'd go ahead and make the cases of
aluminum, just so they'd be sturdier and more reliable when raced.
A couple of pounds difference wouldn't be significant (at least to
me). Is anyone at the enthusiast level doing some parts for the race
Guzzi singles, or have you heard of anyone thinking of putting just
the engine into production?
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:19:42 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR dinometers/Guzzi/Laverda
Hello Ivar,
Joost is on the mc-chassis-design and Moto Guzzi lists, so anyone
who is subscribed there can easily post a message to him.
> Is that the bike that Mick Grant used to race in the U.S.? I am very
> interested in learning more on that bike! Also Michael, I would like to
> get a copy of the article you own of Tony Foale's original frame design
> that Dr. John copied. This was new to me, and I would like to learn much
> more of it.
I've never heard of Mick Grant racing a Guzzi in the States - mainly
the Kawasakis when he was a factory rider. I think that George
Kerker rode the ZDS bike.
I'll try to look up that article and the Performance Bikes article on
the Foale Guzzi (built for the owner of Moto Mecca) in the near
future.
> Your Laverda makes me curious. Isn't it hard to campaign a bike like
> that in the U.S.? In Italy you see a lot of Laverda's flying around in
> the classic F750 events, dicing with the Ducati's, Guzzi's, Suzuki's and
> Kawasaki's. I guess for them it must be much easier.
My Laverda IS a vintage F750 bike. I had the frame approved by
AHRMA as being a design suitable to the period. I've never ridden
the bike in good working order in the post-dyno tuning condition.
The engine sat on my work bench here near the beach in San Francisco
for about 7 years before I got the bike to the track. It didn't seem
very fast (though I still could run about 5th place in the AFM
vintage races), especially for being 74 bhp. Also, the right
cylinder kept giving anomalous plug readings. After 3 races at the
end of the 95 season I did a leakdown test - 80% loss on the right
cylinder! When Craig disassembled the head he said the right exhaust
valve seat was all rusty and nasty. That must have been the valve
that was off the seat while sitting on the bench.
Now it is going back together with somewhat bigger head/smaller stem
titanium valves, new R/D valve springs with titanium retainers, a new
cam design from Megacycle with a much improved exhaust lobe, and a
little more porting work by Craig. Craig hopes for another 4-5 bhp
out of all of this, and I'll also be adding a Harley (TM) XR750 long
track fairing which should be good for an easy 10 mph added on top,
if not more than that. I've also added the Race Tech Cartridge
Emulators to the Ceriani forks, and I'm looking forward to a much
more plush (the stock fork has too much compression damping, making
for chatter in high speed bumpy turns) and better controlled ride one
I get the emulators tuned in.
I try to follow the lead of Ing. Carcano - light and aerodyamic with
"sufficient" horsepower.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 13:06:48 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR ZDS Guzzi Racer
The article appeared in the 05/70 issue of "Cycle Guide".
The bike started as a 1969 Ambassador, and was built by Bob Blair and
George Kerker (yes, later of exhaust pipe fame). They claimed 331
pounds dry weight. Norris cam and valve springs, 10:1 Mondial
pistons, square slide Dell'Orto carbs and C.R. Axtell port work.
Ducati single megaphones were run on the individual head pipes and a
battery ignition was used. The crankshaft was stock but for
balancing by Edelbrock. Rickman forks with Lockheed/Rickman single
disc in a 19" wheel, with an 18" rim on the back. Triumph roadrace
seat and tank. The bike was raced with the stock flywheel, but an
aluminum flywheel was planned.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 13:25:34 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR ZDS Guzzi racer photo
I've just scanned a color photo of the bike and put it in the Guzzi
section of the graphics page on my web site.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 15:32:26
From: Ed Scharnhorst
Subject: VintRR Vintage 1 rules
Patrick Ludwig has posted the WERA rulebook online at
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pjludwig/ if you want to check the V-1 rules for
specifics.
AHRMA has its rulebook up also at http://www.ahrma.org/
Hope this helps.
Ed Scharnhorst (ducboy@VT.EDU)
Always looking for Ducati pushrod & 2-stroke singles parts.
'86 fz-600, '61 Ducati 98,'64 Ducati 100,'6? Ducati 160,'6? Ducati 250
It's FrankenSTEEN resting the Smack-quack It's dead Jim Diana wannabe
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 14:52:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Goodpaster
Subject: VintRR replica
> Now if I could only talk George into building say an RC161, now that
>> might spark my interest. On the other hand, if he did that, AHRMA
>> wouldn't let me race it because it would be a "new" bike, and not
>> "original". ;-D
>>Ellis
Actually, if you build a "replica", as long as it remains period
and year cutoff, use's parts available at that time the machine was
produced, you will have no problem. There are "new" G-50's, Manx and Gold
Stars that meet the criteria. (if you could afford them).
I am sure Micheal has a link to the AHRMA page and the whole rule
book is listed there. http://www.ahrma.org Outside of class structure
most all of the racing organizations rules are alike.
This is a neat site Micheal, nice job. Does this mean your caught
up with all your projects ?.....................
John Goodpaster
AHRMA
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:40:47 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR replica
> I am sure Micheal has a link to the AHRMA page and the whole rule
> book is listed there. http://www.ahrma.org Outside of class structure
> most all of the racing organizations rules are alike.
Hello John,
Yes, there is a link on my clublink page. It was out of date until 2
minutes ago, but works fine now.
I've found AHRMA to be reasonably receptive to specials (like the
Laverda) that while not strictly period (since I don't know that
someone built a frame exactly like mine in 1972) are of a period
style/design. I think this is good, as specials were an integral
part of the period, as any perusal of the magazines/newspapers from
that time will show.
There must be something in the racer chromosone
that forces us to start modifying a bike as soon as it gets into the
garage. Lots of Manxes, G50s, etc were modified to suit the
individual racer and his/her go-fast ideas. I think that in many
ways a stock bike is LESS representative of what was going on than a
modified bike.
> This is a neat site Micheal, nice job. Does this mean your caught
> up with all your projects ?.....................
Of course. I laugh at the petty time constraints others have to work
under, and find that having 20 running motorcycles gives me plenty of
time to wonder which one to ride on any given day.
Not.
If you take the long view (say, geological time spans), you'll
realize that everything will get running someday.
I did just get the triple clamps, swing arm and rear dampers
installed on the Laverda frame. The forks are assembled (less
springs but with oil), but I'll hold off putting them in until I've
dropped the frame over the engine (once I get my cylinder head,
hopefully next Saturday for sure). The front and rear wheels will
slot back in, and I'll hopefully get the bracket for the Krober tach
done this coming week.
Since the cylinder head now has bigger valves and an exhaust lobe
with a lot more lift I'll have to go through the claying of
pistons/timing of cams routine. Now if I could only remember the
safe place I put one of the pistons. . .
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 18:22:04 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Do you recognize this person's email address?
... Deferred: Operation timed out with
osram.sylvania.com.
I've just unsubscribed this person from the vintage-roadrace list as
it doesn't look like any outgoing messages are getting through to
him/her.
If any of you recognize this person from some other list that you are
on with them, I'd appreciate you telling them that they've been
unsubscribed (presuming you can get through to them).
thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:29:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Paul C. Kurth"
Subject: Re: VintRR AHRMA
Machael
Yes I know that Vintage 1 is a WERA class. But I had already hit
the send key. I think that the class that I'm looking for is sportsman 350.
Cameron
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 19:46:37 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR Attn: John G. - AHRMA classes at Willow Springs
Hello John,
Do you know if Formula Vintage will be run at Willow Springs, and if
so, will it be run at a different time from F750?
I'm trying to decide what second class I want to enter the Laverda in
(eternal optomist that I am), and I'd rather run the Laverda in a
second vintage class than in a BOT class.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:21:03 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: VintRR (Fwd) Dunstall Motorcycles
Here's something I thought might interest some of you:
- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:56:11 +0100
From: John Woodgate
Reply-to: john@meertech.demon.co.uk
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Bristol
To: vjmc@hyperreal.com
Subject: Dunstall Motorcycles
Hi,
I currently have a web page on the motorcycles built by Paul Dunstall
during the period 1964-1984. For most of that time, Dunstall machines
were based on Norton and Triumph machinery. However, he also was very
active in the later years with Suzuki and Honda machinery. He also build
parts and may have built complete machines based on Yamaha and Kawasaki
designs.
I must declare that I am a Norton man myself and my web page does
reflect that (http://www.meertech.demon.co.uk/dunstall/index.html).
However there were quite a number of japanese based machines built and
according to the reports of that time, they were very popular.
I would be very grateful if you post a message for me on your mailing
list asking if there are any Dunstall riders out there and for
them to get in contact. I would like to collect some information on the
machines and to add them to the Dunstall Owners register I am trying to
compile.
If anybody has any Dunstall catalogues they would be prepared to lend
me, I will gladly pay for the postage costs both ways. I am also looking
for any nice photos of DUnstalls to include on the web page.
Thanks
John Woodgate
- --
50 Great Meadow Road, Email:john@meertech.demon.co.uk
Bradley Stoke, Phone: 0117 931 1853
Bristol, BS12 8DA
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #9
**************************
VintRR-digest Wednesday, April 9 1997 Volume 01 : Number 010
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 09:09:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Sandra Cox
Subject: VintRR Benelli
I have a 73 (?) Benelli Phantom, or at least what's left of one. It's a victom
of vintage racing. A friend wanted to get into motorcycle road racing a few
years ago, and the vintage class sounded most affordable. A Honda 350 was our
starting point, and we built from there. I don't know where he came up with the
Benelli, but he sure liked the idea of stealing it's breaks, and suspention for
his racing efforts. The motor ran when he hauled it in for stripping.
Wives, and girlfriends can't always see the advantages of having spare
motorcycles around so this one ended up in my garage. Haveing finished up a
number of other projects it's been tempting my to spend time with it. I'm not
looking to take it to the track, or do a honest restoration job on it. Instead
I'm just looking to reconstruct it into a street ride, and give it a second
lease on life.
I'm looking for vendors who might be able to help me come up with some
nessisary parts. Expantion champers, and triple trees are the two bigges on top
of the list right now. I'm sure as I move allong others thing will come up.
Any one familer with this bike, or know where I might find parts I'd like to
hear from you.
Thanks
Nick Bond
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:09:35 AST
From: "Darrell Hingley"
Subject: VintRR Honda CB-400F
Hello,
I am at present building a 400 four Honda into a vintage racer.
My question for the day, does anyone have experence remounting the
engine using snug fitting bolts and lock nuts?. Do you start at the
back of the motor (where the main bolts are) and work your way to the
front. As a side note does anyone know of any race parts for the
400f, I am looking for a good race pipe as well as race spec.
connecting rods etc, CR-750 style long gas tank and seat etc. As you
may be able to tell I hope to , in time, make my 400 look like a mini
CR-750 with four magaphone pipes, seat etc. Does anyone know of a
good custom pipe shop that can make custom pipes?. Thanks for the
space, great site, and keep those old Honda's wound tight, long live
the screaming fours. Darrell Hingley #62
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 10:03:01
From: Ed Scharnhorst
Subject: Re: VintRR Honda CB-400F
At 10:09 AM 4/8/97 AST, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
> I am at present building a 400 four Honda into a vintage racer.
>My question for the day, does anyone have experence remounting the
>engine using snug fitting bolts and lock nuts?. Do you start at the
>back of the motor (where the main bolts are) and work your way to the
>front. As a side note does anyone know of any race parts for the
>400f, I am looking for a good race pipe as well as race spec.
>connecting rods etc, CR-750 style long gas tank and seat etc. As you
>may be able to tell I hope to , in time, make my 400 look like a mini
>CR-750 with four magaphone pipes, seat etc. Does anyone know of a
>good custom pipe shop that can make custom pipes?. Thanks for the
>space, great site, and keep those old Honda's wound tight, long live
>the screaming fours. Darrell Hingley #62
>
If you want to try making your own pipes you might try getting a copy of
this paper by Honda. Credit to Michael for the citation (he sent me this
some time ago, I'm just pasting it):
From: "Michael Moore"
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:22:42 +0000
Subject: re: megaphone design
I just found the SAE paper presented by Honda engineers in the
mid-60s, and wanted to confirm that they used megaphones with an
included angle of 3-4 degrees, and a megaphone length of 1.4-1.8 times
the head pipe length.
The paper is:
SAE #700122
Research and Development of High-Speed, High-Performance, Small
Discplacement Honda Engines - Yagi, Ishizuya and Fujii, Honda R&D Co.,
Ltd. They also discuss combustion effects, mechanical efficiency, and
various combustion chamber/valve types. Some of the early 60's race
engines achieved 260 bhp/liter at speed of up to 25,000 rpm.
This won't give you any specific suppliers but might help in overall design
goals. Good luck!
Hey Michael, don't you have a cite on 2-stroke pipe design (or was it
engine?) for the recent Benelli Phantom post?
Ed Scharnhorst (ducboy@VT.EDU)
Always looking for Ducati pushrod & 2-stroke singles parts.
'86 fz-600, '61 Ducati 98,'64 Ducati 100,'6? Ducati 160,'6? Ducati 250
It's FrankenSTEEN resting the Smack-quack It's dead Jim Diana wannabe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 23:20:29 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: Re: VintRR Wheeler and the Guzzi singles
> Hello Ivar,
>
> Didn't Ken Sprayson of Reynolds build the Wheeler frame for him? I
> think I read that Trevor Barnes bought much of AW's bikes when he
> retired - is he still racing those bikes or near replicas?
Barnes rides old bikes from John Kidson, not of Arthur Wheeler, but I am
not entirely sure. Maybe your friend Craig knows it. Please ask him
since I am interested in this history. Also I don't know who made Arthur
Wheeler's frame at Reynolds. Who was Ken Sprayson?
> > Also these bikes would be better to race then the old
> > ones, since the magnesium alloy is again better prone to cracking then
> > the 40yrs+ old ones... This cracking is the biggest problem for owners
> > of these bikes. If it cracks, you're gone completely...
>
> I surprised at that. I thought they were going to be around
> US$100K, and that was why there weren't many takers. At US$45K
> you'd think there would be a stampede to put down a deposit. That
> is still a lot of money for many of us, but that's not even a very
> fancy car in everyday terms, and you'd think that the people who can
> afford to build/buy new Manx/G50s or race Brittens would think the
> price quite a bargain. The Guzzi engine/trans has to be cheaper to
> build than a Manx w/Quaife transmission, especially if it is being
> done at the factory instead of as a very limited production
> enthusiast job. I'd hope that they'd go ahead and make the cases of
> aluminum, just so they'd be sturdier and more reliable when raced.
> A couple of pounds difference wouldn't be significant (at least to
> me). Is anyone at the enthusiast level doing some parts for the race
> Guzzi singles, or have you heard of anyone thinking of putting just
> the engine into production?
Well, I guess everybody wanted one or intended to buy one. I "knew" of 6
Dutchmen who insured me they had paid the deposit as well, when I heard
Wheeler and I were the only ones I was badly dissapointed. The bike and
it's engine is indeed cheap to produce. When I tore the engine of my
bike appart I was absolutely amazed to see how incredibly simple and
leight everything was constructed. It comes to my mind I made pictures
at the time, which were published in a classic technicall Italian
motorcycle magazine. I must look it up to share the internals of the
engine with you, Michael. Also I have some copies of old factory
drawings, though they are currently laying displayed in an Italian
motorcycle museum. Guzzi racing bikes = big love!
Cheers,
Ivar de Gier.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 23:22:08 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: Re: VintRR dinometers/Guzzi/Laverda
Michael Moore wrote:
> I've never heard of Mick Grant racing a Guzzi in the States - mainly
> the Kawasakis when he was a factory rider. I think that George
> Kerker rode the ZDS bike.
I was mistaking, Michael, sorry for that. I meant Mike Baldwin. I know
he raced an early V7 (or ambassador) (old frame) based Guzzi racer in
the U.S.
> > Your Laverda makes me curious. Isn't it hard to campaign a bike like
> > that in the U.S.? In Italy you see a lot of Laverda's flying around in
> > the classic F750 events, dicing with the Ducati's, Guzzi's, Suzuki's and
> > Kawasaki's. I guess for them it must be much easier.
>
> My Laverda IS a vintage F750 bike. I had the frame approved by
> AHRMA as being a design suitable to the period. I've never ridden
> the bike in good working order in the post-dyno tuning condition.
> The engine sat on my work bench here near the beach in San Francisco
> for about 7 years before I got the bike to the track. It didn't seem
> very fast (though I still could run about 5th place in the AFM
> vintage races), especially for being 74 bhp. Also, the right
> cylinder kept giving anomalous plug readings. After 3 races at the
> end of the 95 season I did a leakdown test - 80% loss on the right
> cylinder! When Craig disassembled the head he said the right exhaust
> valve seat was all rusty and nasty. That must have been the valve
> that was off the seat while sitting on the bench.
>
> Now it is going back together with somewhat bigger head/smaller stem
> titanium valves, new R/D valve springs with titanium retainers, a new
> cam design from Megacycle with a much improved exhaust lobe, and a
> little more porting work by Craig. Craig hopes for another 4-5 bhp
> out of all of this, and I'll also be adding a Harley (TM) XR750 long
> track fairing which should be good for an easy 10 mph added on top,
> if not more than that. I've also added the Race Tech Cartridge
> Emulators to the Ceriani forks, and I'm looking forward to a much
> more plush (the stock fork has too much compression damping, making
> for chatter in high speed bumpy turns) and better controlled ride one
> I get the emulators tuned in.
>
> I try to follow the lead of Ing. Carcano - light and aerodyamic with
> "sufficient" horsepower.
Ship it over to Europe and race this magnificent beast. My workshop is
yours and I have a spare bedroom! Holland - Monza is one day!;-)
Cheers,
Ivar.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 23:26:59 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: Re: VintRR Benelli
Sandra Cox wrote:
>
> I have a 73 (?) Benelli Phantom, or at least what's left of one. It's a victom
> of vintage racing.
What's the European name for the Phantom? Perhaps I can be of
assistance.
Greetings,
Ivar de Gier
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 16:39:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Paul C. Kurth"
Subject: VintRR CB 350 gaskets
I might have posted this before, but I need to find a place to get a
gasket kit for my CB350 twin. I also need some stock rings for the
bike. The local honda dealer kind of looks at me funny when I ask to buy
parts. I asked for a washer for a banjo fitting. After 5 minutes of
explination me goes to the back and gets a washer that was about an inch
in diameter and about 1/8 of an inch thick."You want one of these?"
Cameron
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 21:53:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Sandra Cox
Subject: Re: VintRR Benelli
The Phantom was also model 2C, or marketed by Moto Guzzi as the TS. It's a 250
twin 2 stroke.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:00:25 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Benelli
> I have a 73 (?) Benelli Phantom, or at least what's left of one. It's a victom
> of vintage racing. A friend wanted to get into motorcycle road racing a few
> I'm looking for vendors who might be able to help me come up with some
> nessisary parts. Expantion champers, and triple trees are the two bigges on top
> of the list right now. I'm sure as I move allong others thing will come up.
> Any one familer with this bike, or know where I might find parts I'd like to
> hear from you.
> Thanks
> Nick Bond
Hello Nick,
There was a spec-racer class in Italy using the Phantom in the late
1970s. If you compare the bore and stroke measurements to the
different Japanese two stroke twins you may find that it is close
enough to an RD or X6 to use their pipes (after some porting - the
one I rode on the street for a couple of weeks was pretty mildly
tuned).
Cosmopolitan Motors in Hatboro NJ(PA?) may have some parts for the
bike. I think they usually have an ad in Cycle News.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:00:25 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Honda CB-400F (really Phantom thread)
> Hey Michael, don't you have a cite on 2-stroke pipe design (or was it
> engine?) for the recent Benelli Phantom post?
> Ed Scharnhorst (ducboy@VT.EDU)
Hello Ed,
Jennings and Blair would be the most likely folks. Blair is probably
more up to date with his SAE papers. The two-smoke list guys would
be up on that.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:00:25 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Honda CB-400F
> I am at present building a 400 four Honda into a vintage racer.
> My question for the day, does anyone have experence remounting the
> engine using snug fitting bolts and lock nuts?. Do you start at the
> back of the motor (where the main bolts are) and work your way to the
> front. As a side note does anyone know of any race parts for the
Hello Darrell,
Put the engine in and see how well the sprockets will align. Do
spacers as needed at the rear motormounts, and work your way forward,
making spacers when necessary to keep from distorting the frame when
tightening the bolts. Close fitting bolts are a very good idea.
> 400f, I am looking for a good race pipe as well as race spec.
> connecting rods etc, CR-750 style long gas tank and seat etc. As you
> may be able to tell I hope to , in time, make my 400 look like a mini
> CR-750 with four magaphone pipes, seat etc. Does anyone know of a
> good custom pipe shop that can make custom pipes?. Thanks for the
> space, great site, and keep those old Honda's wound tight, long live
> the screaming fours. Darrell Hingley #62
I had a 350/4 race bike that I bought from my friend Craig Hanson.
It had Carillo rods, lightened crank, big valves, RITA crank-mounted
ignition, etc, etc. Building a powerful and reliable 350/400/4 race
engine isn't going to be cheap, but Craig knows what to do to them.
You can see pictures of some of the bikes he's designed and built
from the ground up on my web site (as well as his crankshaft services
price list) or you can contact him at:
Hanson Racing Technology
Chico CA
916-342-8049
He can also design the pipe for you, but I guess you are going to
have troubles with noise at some tracks if running a 4-4 exhaust.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:00:27 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Wheeler and the Guzzi singles
> Barnes rides old bikes from John Kidson, not of Arthur Wheeler, but I am
> not entirely sure. Maybe your friend Craig knows it. Please ask him
> since I am interested in this history. Also I don't know who made Arthur
> Wheeler's frame at Reynolds. Who was Ken Sprayson?
Hello Ivar,
Ken Sprayson was the person at Reynolds Tube that made all the
special frames - Geoff Duke's NSU/Nortons, Mike Hailwood's RC181
500/4, etc, etc. There were two articles recently in Classic Racer
or Classic Bike with letters to Sprayson from many of the famous
people who had him do frames.
> bike appart I was absolutely amazed to see how incredibly simple and
> leight everything was constructed. It comes to my mind I made pictures
> at the time, which were published in a classic technicall Italian
> motorcycle magazine. I must look it up to share the internals of the
> engine with you, Michael. Also I have some copies of old factory
> drawings, though they are currently laying displayed in an Italian
> motorcycle museum. Guzzi racing bikes = big love!
I'd be very interested in seeing the pictures and possibly adding
them to the web site. And if you've got factory drawings of the
single, I've got a friend (Peter) with a CNC machine shop - would
billet aluminum cases be OK? Peter has a full set of Honda CR
roadracers - 50-305cc, and races the CR77. He also has a 250/4
factory engine that he's accumulating chassis parts for, as well as
the only bevel-shaft cam drive Honda 125cc GP twin engine left in
the world.
You could probably make some extra lunch money selling duplicate sets
of the factory drawings to Guzzi enthusiasts - I'll take a set for
sure!
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:00:27 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR dinometers/Guzzi/Laverda
> I was mistaking, Michael, sorry for that. I meant Mike Baldwin. I know
> he raced an early V7 (or ambassador) (old frame) based Guzzi racer in
> the U.S.
Hello Ivar,
Baldwin rode the Reno Leoni-tuned Le Mans MK 1 race bike.
> > snipped Laverda SF2RR stuff
> Ship it over to Europe and race this magnificent beast. My workshop is
> yours and I have a spare bedroom! Holland - Monza is one day!;-)
I'd like to do that some day. Probably between you, Marnix van der
Schalk (who runs the SFC Laverda registry) and Keith McKay I could
find plenty of places to stay for a night or two. I think I'd be
willing to skip going to Daytona for a chance at Monza/Assen. It
probably wouldn't be that much more expensive to go to Europe
either, as I'd have to ship the Laverda to Daytona and then fly out
(I'm not about to spend a couple weeks of vacation driving back and
forth across the country from San Francisco to Florida).
Who knows, if I can sell a lot of John Bradley's books perhaps I can
afford to come over next year. I think John told me that he had been
invited to address a big M/C club meeting in Holland sometime this
summer - I'll try to find out more details as you'd probably like to
go and meet him.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:00:27 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR CB 350 gaskets
> I might have posted this before, but I need to find a place to get a
> gasket kit for my CB350 twin. I also need some stock rings for the
> bike. The local honda dealer kind of looks at me funny when I ask to buy
> parts. I asked for a washer for a banjo fitting. After 5 minutes of
> explination me goes to the back and gets a washer that was about an inch
> in diameter and about 1/8 of an inch thick."You want one of these?"
>
> Cameron
Hello Cameron,
You need a different Honda dealer, or just get them to let you pick
the part of the microfiche that you want. They can supply all the
parts you need from American Honda. Superhawk/CB160 parts are harder
to get, but the 350 was the best selling single bike in the US at one
time, so there should be absolutely ZERO problem getting parts for it
from Honda.
If you can get access to a microfiche reader (I think there are some
small handheld viewers available) have the dealer order a fiche for
your bike for you. Then you can go in with all the parts identified
and not have to deal so much with incompetent counter help (which is
what you are doing now).
What I'd suggest you do is order just the rings from the dealer, and
go to your local m/c accessory place and ask them to look in the K&L
Supply Company catalog to order the gasket sets. I just checked my
new catalog and they've got both top-end and complete gasket sets
listed.
On things like banjo fitting washers, take the part into some other
Japanese bike dealer and very nicely ask for one like it. That
should be a standard sized washer, and if they'll go look they'll
probably be able to match it up.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 23:22:31 -0400
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR Honda CB-400F
Darrell Hingley wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am at present building a 400 four Honda into a vintage racer.
> My question for the day, does anyone have experence remounting the
> engine using snug fitting bolts and lock nuts?. Do you start at the
> back of the motor (where the main bolts are) and work your way to the
> front. As a side note does anyone know of any race parts for the
> 400f, I am looking for a good race pipe as well as race spec.
> connecting rods etc, CR-750 style long gas tank and seat etc. As you
> may be able to tell I hope to , in time, make my 400 look like a mini
> CR-750 with four magaphone pipes, seat etc. Does anyone know of a
> good custom pipe shop that can make custom pipes?. Thanks for the
> space, great site, and keep those old Honda's wound tight, long live
> the screaming fours. Darrell Hingley #62
>
>
Hi Darrell,
Another source for your pipes is Swarbrick Racing in the UK. Go to a
well stocked bookstore and pick up a copy of "Clasic Racer" or "Clasic
Bike". The CB400F is a big deal in the UK. There used to be hot rod
goodies made by Yoshimura for the CB400, don't know if any of that
stuff's still around.
Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 23:37:58 -0400
From: Ellis_Holman
Subject: Re: VintRR CB 350 gaskets
Paul C. Kurth wrote:
>
> I might have posted this before, but I need to find a place to get a
> gasket kit for my CB350 twin. I also need some stock rings for the
> bike. The local honda dealer kind of looks at me funny when I ask to buy
> parts. I asked for a washer for a banjo fitting. After 5 minutes of
> explination me goes to the back and gets a washer that was about an inch
> in diameter and about 1/8 of an inch thick."You want one of these?"
>
> Cameron
>
>
>
Hi Paul,
Everything you need should be available from a Honda dealer. If you want
a little extra insurance, call the folks at Copper Gasket (602-993-2606)
they can run up a copper head gasket for you. The copper gasket will
hold up a bit better under the stress of racing. You may be able to find
gasket sets from folks like K&L. My personal experience has not been
good with the non-Honda gaskets, so I tend to stick to Honda's stuff
when I can, sure it costs a bit more, but it's a real pain when a gasket
fails and dumps oil on the rear tire, and the bike dumps you. Ellis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 23:41:28 -0500
From: fr8liner
Subject: VintRR Re: ...the Guzzi singles
Good to see all the Guzzi posts. Who would have thunk it.
Michael said to Ivar:
>You could probably make some extra lunch money selling duplicate sets
>of the factory drawings to Guzzi enthusiasts - I'll take a set for
>sure!
Michael is right, Ivar. Lunch money is good. I will buy at least one set.
Speaking of Guzzi prints and such, I just yesterday received a small poster
of 20 different Guzzi singles, from the Normale to the Lodola. Great
poster, wish I had more. What about those pictures of engine internals that
went to the Italian tech magazine? Maybe Michael could put them on his web
site?
Print 'em up!
Gordon Kline
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 10:28:07 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: Re: VintRR Benelli
Sandra Cox wrote:
>
> The Phantom was also model 2C, or marketed by Moto Guzzi as the TS. It's a 250
> twin 2 stroke.
O.k. I can help you. I own a Guzzi 250TS, the first model with front
drumbrakes. I don't use it often, but it used to be my brother's, my
father's and my winterbike before I restored it. In Holland there's a
large Guzzi dealer which also stocks parts for the older and rarer
Guzzi's. Let me know what you need and I can help you out. Electrical
components are hard to get. If you have the model with electronic
ignition you have a large problem in replacing that with stock parts.
Forget it and contact an expert like Michael Moore for something
MUCH better. They handle really well, have a neatly built frame, and go
like stink. I think you must change your gearbox settings, since the
highest gear is a true overdrive.
Though the Benelli is much alike the Guzzi (badge engineered for 90%)
the Guzzi has a little more power.
I can remember these bikes being ridden on the IOM standard class T.T.'s
years ago. Some of them had home-brewed watercooling on it, and were
fast.
Anyway, let me know your requirements and I'll try to locate them for
you.
Sincerely,
Ivar de Gier
Guzziman@pi.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 05:00:55 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: VintRR Benelli
> Guzzi's. Let me know what you need and I can help you out. Electrical
> components are hard to get. If you have the model with electronic
> ignition you have a large problem in replacing that with stock parts.
> Forget it and contact an expert like Michael Moore for something
> MUCH better. They handle really well, have a neatly built frame, and go
> like stink. I think you must change your gearbox settings, since the
> highest gear is a true overdrive.
Hello Ivar,
Unfortunately, the RITA is primarily for points replacement on four
strokes where a 1/2 time shaft is available. Special ignitions can
be done for things like TR750 etc, but that is not a self generating
ignition, and the RITA pickups don't like to be mounted right next to
the magnetic fields in the alternator (as is typical on things like
RD350s, and presumeably the Benelli 250).
Thanks for the plug though.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:58:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: VintRR CB 350 gaskets
>
>I might have posted this before, but I need to find a place to get a
>gasket kit for my CB350 twin. I also need some stock rings for the
>bike. The local honda dealer kind of looks at me funny when I ask to buy
>parts. I asked for a washer for a banjo fitting. After 5 minutes of
>explination me goes to the back and gets a washer that was about an inch
>in diameter and about 1/8 of an inch thick."You want one of these?"
>
>Cameron
>
>
The last time I checked everything but the cylinder base gasket is still
available from Honda. This goes for the rings as well. You need another
dealer.
- --
Peter Alan Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or mariner@istar.ca
Vintage Road Racing - you're only young once but with enough determination
you can stay immature forever.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 15:26:50 +0200
From: Guzziman
Subject: Re: VintRR Benelli
> Hello Ivar,
>
> Unfortunately, the RITA is primarily for points replacement on four
> strokes where a 1/2 time shaft is available. Special ignitions can
> be done for things like TR750 etc, but that is not a self generating
> ignition, and the RITA pickups don't like to be mounted right next to
> the magnetic fields in the alternator (as is typical on things like
> RD350s, and presumeably the Benelli 250).
>
> Thanks for the plug though.
Again I learned something, I thought perhaps you also would stock other
ignition systems.
Cheers,
Ivar.
------------------------------
End of VintRR-digest V1 #10
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