Motorcycle Chassis Design Digest #881-890
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, January 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 881
1. "Thacker, Heath HW" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis YZ125 Rebuilt
2. Paul Sayegh Subj: MC-Chassis chrome cylinders
3. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis OHLINS 2WD
4. "big gigglin' maniac" Subj: MC-Chassis fuel pump
5. Les Sharp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis fuel pump
6. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: RE: MC-Chassis YZ125 Rebuilt
7. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Radial Engines
8. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis YZ125 Rebuilt
9. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Black rings
10. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis fuel pump
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:08:22 +1100
From: "Thacker, Heath HW"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis YZ125 Rebuilt
> From: David Weinshenker[SMTP:daze39@grin.net]
>
> > Also, the mechanic at the local dealership said not to hone the
> cylinder, as
> > they arn't meant to wear ? He said I'd do more harm than good. Any
> ideas ?
>
> Is it an iron sleeve or hard plated one? If it's plated (chrome or
> nickel
> silicon) it doesn't need to be honed when renewing the piston and rings.
>
Yes, its a plated Chrome.
> Careful initial heat-cycling is likely to pay dividends in
> piston health with either type of bore.
>
Thanks again, Dave.
Heath.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 21:30:38 -0800
From: Paul Sayegh
Subject: MC-Chassis chrome cylinders
David Weinshenker wrote:
> Thacker, Heath HW wrote:
> >
> > Thanks David. My manual suggests using premix at 15:1 during break-in
> > instead of 30:1, is this normal practice ?
>
> Sounds about right. Go to 30:1 when you switch
> to synthetic.
>
> > Also, the mechanic at the local dealership said not to hone the cylinder, as
> > they arn't meant to wear ? He said I'd do more harm than good. Any ideas ?
>
> Is it an iron sleeve or hard plated one? If it's plated (chrome or
> nickel
> silicon) it doesn't need to be honed when renewing the piston and rings.
>
> The only time a plated cylinder needs to be honed is after the
> plating is applied, to establish the exact size.
>
FYI. If you use aftermarket pistons\rings make sure you do not use chrome rings
on a chrome bore. Honing a chrome bore requires diamond impregnated stones (not
cheap). Chrome plated and other plated cylinders actually take longer to break in
because you have to seat the ring in a used cylinder that cannot typically be
honed round. All used 2-stroke cylinders go out of round. Once used, they have
less abrasive qualities to seat the new rings and have to seat in that egg shaped
cylinder. Don't use the synthetic too soon! Not many engines have chrome plated
cylinders anymore. The warm up\cool down break-in is good advice. I also don't
believe in adding more oil to the break-in mixture. Th oil actually displaces
fuel causing a leaner mixture and hotter running. I prefer to just richen the
carb for the first few tanks of gas. Happy tuning!
> --
................................................................
Paul Sayegh
V-Max Technical List Administrator
VMOA Northwest Director
V-Max web page http://www.sayegh.org/tips.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 16:36:56 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis OHLINS 2WD
The Ohlins 2WD turned up in the local bike mag - today's issue.
Appears to be the same photos you describe - both a bit grainy
but it appears to me that they have used a end ported motor of
some desciption - could be gear or vane ( looks too flat to be a
piston motor ) driving an internal ring gear. ( Not a chain )
The ratio looks to be about 10:1 - the actual motorsize and gear
ratio don't matter - the flow into ( and the pressure ) it is the only
thing that gives you the power output.
I used a huge radial piston motor ungeared - i.e. - 1:1. - with
3/4 in. ( 19mm ) feed pipes and 1 in ( 25mm ) return pipes.
Those hoses are tiny - I think the 10% of engine power stated is
a bit optimistic - and in my opinion not of much use anyway. I
can't see that 10% is enough to affect the handling in positive
way - my friend Sam's 2WD CR500 will do beautiful zero lock
2 wheel slides just like a 4 wheel sliding rally car.
Interestingly - I had an exchange of emails & information with a
Swedish Phd student on the subject of 2WD's a little while back.
One wonders..........
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:32:52 -0500
From: "big gigglin' maniac"
Subject: MC-Chassis fuel pump
A bit off topic, but info is needed due to some chassis mods. I'm
going to need a gas tank for a while until I get around to making a
new tank to fit a sidecar rig I'm modifying. I figured I'd run a
small tank on the sidecar, but it'd require a fuel pump. Does anyone
know what pressure a Mikuni VM wants, and is there a cheap pump and/or
regulator that I can lay my hands on easily?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:32:50 +0800
From: Les Sharp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis fuel pump
Maniac,
Try a snowmobile or jetski item. They work off intake vacuum pulses and
are set up to give a couple of psi for a typical Mikuni or Keihin. Sudco
have these. A lot of sportbikes have gas tanks that have bottoms below
the float level these days and have similar devices. Check the
scrapyards.
Les
big gigglin' maniac wrote:
>
> A bit off topic, but info is needed due to some chassis mods. I'm
> going to need a gas tank for a while until I get around to making a
> new tank to fit a sidecar rig I'm modifying. I figured I'd run a
> small tank on the sidecar, but it'd require a fuel pump. Does anyone
> know what pressure a Mikuni VM wants, and is there a cheap pump and/or
> regulator that I can lay my hands on easily?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:19:12
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis YZ125 Rebuilt
At 02:32 PM 1/8/99 +1100, you wrote:
>Thanks David. My manual suggests using premix at 15:1 during break-in
>instead of 30:1, is this normal practice ?
Don't do it. Use the standard mix. it will give you enough lube as is,
right? Or they would have suggested a stronger mix. Point is, if you double
the oil, you are cutting down on the gasoline per unit quantity, and that
makes your running mixture leaner, not good for breaking in motors.
>
>Also, the mechanic at the local dealership said not to hone the cylinder, as
>they arn't meant to wear ? He said I'd do more harm than good. Any ideas ?
He's right if you hone a good, clean, shiny bore. But if you have powder
rust ot staining a little bit of honing is usually a good idea and won't
affect the size noticably.
Best regards,
Hoyt
Belfab CNC: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
Best MC Repair- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
Camping/Caving- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
'It's the end of the world as we know it; I feel fine' <=Michael Stipe
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:22:33
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Radial Engines
At 10:55 PM 1/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Those planes are really neat to watch/hear fly. The engines have to
>remain at constant revs (1300 rpm +/- i think)..
Why? Have always heard they had throttles, if otherwise they'd be hard to
start and very dangerous to the guy cranking it.
They may have been run at constant speed in the air; this would be good
idea too, as if throttled up and down while flying the varying torque would
tend to affect control. This was a problem in some aircraft anyway, due to
power and size of prop. <=The Mustang comes to mind, that 12' four-blade
had about 2400 Hp behind it.
Best regards,
Hoyt
Belfab CNC: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
Best MC Repair- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
Camping/Caving- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
'It's the end of the world as we know it; I feel fine' <=Michael Stipe
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:28:02
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis YZ125 Rebuilt
At 07:55 PM 1/7/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Since it won't be necessary for the new crosshatch finish of a honed
>iron cylinder to be rubbed smooth by the rings, you may be able to
>switch to synthetic oil sooner in a plated cylinder.
>(Red Line synthetic "racing" oil recommends on the label
>to use petroleum oil for 15 min. running time to seat
Breakin doesn't involve wear, or at least wear isn't the point. The resaon
for heat-cycling the motor is to relax stresses in the piston and let it
conform more precisely to the bore at the same time.
And the purpose of cross-hatched honing is to spread and hold the oil, not
to be rubbed off.
Ideally, the cross-hatch would persist for the life of the motor and in
fact I see them all the time where it has to some degree, usually along the
middle/lower part where skirt rides.
The only thing in the breakin process that involves any wear, ideally, is
seating rings, and that should be measured in microns during typical
breakin periods.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:24:54 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Black rings
Dave w asked:
<<
a comparison to other cruisers whose equal front & rear sizes
made them "theoretically" unable to steer "on lean angle alone."
Is there anything to this, or is this a case of a motojournalist
knowing what he likes in a bike's handling but not why it handles
like that...
>>
The actual statement is far too general. There are all sorts of parameters
that determine both steering and tyre size effects on handling.
Cornering force on an upright tyre (as one tries for in a car) comes from
slip angle, i.e. we have to steer a little more than the path of a curve to
generate a force that pushes the vehicle towards the turn centre. So the
cornering force can be directly controlled by the driver, depending soley on
his steering input.
Bike steering is somewhat more complex. A tyre that is cambered in relation
to the road surface creates a cornering force due to what's known as
"camber-thrust" the mechanism for this is akin to a rolling cone which
tends to steer about it's apex. The cambered tyre is just like a slice of
a cone.
Now, obviously the cornering force so generated depends on lean angle and
tyre characteristics / sizes etc. At any given road speed this camber
thrust may be either
too little, too much or just right to provide the cornering force that the
rider wants. If it's just right then the rider need apply no steering angle
to the handlebars in order to corner as he wishes. However, if the camber
thrust is not exactly correct then he must apply either some negative or
positive steering angle to detract from or add to the cornering force. This
corrective steering angle generates this corrective force by slip angle as
with a car.
It is because much of the cornering force comes from camber thrust that
actual steering angles on a bike are much less than with a car.
Some bikes need little effort to go where we wish yet others seem to need
"holding down" to stay on line whereas some need "lifting up", this "feel"
is a direct result of how much and in which direction we need to apply
corrective slip angles to adjust for the difference between the camber
thrust generated and the cornering force required.
Just as with a car, we do not steer by the front wheels alone. Conventional
(non-RWS) cars must generate cornering force from the rear tyres also, thus
the rear must also have a slip angle, this is achieved by the car body
adopting a yaw attitude inward of the desired cornering path.
Likewise on a bike, if the camber thrust from the rear tyre doesn't balance
the required cornering force at the rear then the bike must adopt a yaw
attitude to correct the imbalance by adding or subtracting cornering force
by means of slip angle.
So to claim that equal size tyres are incapable of "steering by lean angle
alone" is quite obviously a gross over-simplification at best. There are
so many factors involved and NO BIKE steers by lean angle alone under ALL
cornering conditions. A wet road will affect camber thrust around the same
corner at a given speed, and so any corrective steering torque will also
depend on road conditions. This is just one reason, amongst others, that
gives a different "feel" to the bike when it's raining.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:13:33 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis fuel pump
>Maniac,
>
>Try a snowmobile or jetski item. They work off intake vacuum pulses and
>are set up to give a couple of psi for a typical Mikuni or Keihin. Sudco
>have these. A lot of sportbikes have gas tanks that have bottoms below
>the float level these days and have similar devices. Check the
>scrapyards.
>
>Les
>
>big gigglin' maniac wrote:
>>
>> A bit off topic, but info is needed due to some chassis mods. I'm
>> going to need a gas tank for a while until I get around to making a
>> new tank to fit a sidecar rig I'm modifying. I figured I'd run a
>> small tank on the sidecar, but it'd require a fuel pump. Does anyone
>> know what pressure a Mikuni VM wants, and is there a cheap pump and/or
>> regulator that I can lay my hands on easily?
A friend uses one of these vacuum pumps to replace the electric fuel pump
on an endurance bike. He had a few teething problems with it - the
pressure was a bit too high and quite variable out of the box. It required
some fiddling with the regulator to get it right. The Honda fuel pumps
operate at .5 psi and have a built in regulator, which is just enough to
get the fuel there, but not overwhelm the float valve. I have used only
Hawk and VT500 pumps, so I can't make a blanket statement about all honda
pumps.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #881
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Saturday, January 9 1999 Volume 01 : Number 882
1. "joel" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Radial Engines
2. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Fuel pumps
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis fuel pump
4. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Fuel pumps
5. "john.mead" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Radial Engines
6. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Radial Engines
7. Paul Sayegh Subj: Re: MC-Chassis fuel pump
8. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis fuel pump
9. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis Kroil/Silikroil
10. Geo van der Merwe Subj: MC-Chassis Paint Advice
11. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Paint Advice
12. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: MC-Chassis Front Fender Aerodynamics?
13. "Frank Camillieri" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Kroil/Silikroil
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:30:01 -0500
From: "joel"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Radial Engines
> -----Original Message-----
> >Those planes are really neat to watch/hear fly. The engines have to
> >remain at constant revs (1300 rpm +/- i think)..
>
> Why? Have always heard they had throttles, if otherwise they'd be hard to
> start and very dangerous to the guy cranking it.
> They may have been run at constant speed in the air; this would be good
> idea too, as if throttled up and down while flying the varying
> torque would
> tend to affect control. This was a problem in some aircraft anyway, due to
> power and size of prop. <=The Mustang comes to mind, that 12' four-blade
> had about 2400 Hp behind it.
> Best regards,
> Hoyt
hello Hoyt,
I was referring to radial (more appropriately called rotary)
engines of the early teens.. produced by Gnome and LeRhone and
a few others. Engines where the propeller was bolted directly
to the crankcase/barells..where the crank itself was directly
bolted to the fuselage... they had an awful lot of mass spinning
about. A tendency to pull themselves apart at higher
rpms, and a lack of thrust and hp below 1200 rpm or so
(these engines only putting out about 80hp at max.)
certainly diminishes the useable rpm range. It's amazing they
ran at all...after seeing one of these engines in action
(spitting raw fuel and castor oil all over the pilot),
I have a new found respect for early aviators. Come to think of it,
my Norton runs just about like that plane...
ciao, joel
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 11:13:12 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Fuel pumps
> Does anyone
> know what pressure a Mikuni VM wants, and is there a cheap pump and/or
> regulator that I can lay my hands on easily?
>
> SNIP
>
> Try a snowmobile or jetski item. They work off intake vacuum pulses and
> are set up to give a couple of psi for a typical Mikuni or Keihin. Sudco
> have these. A lot of sportbikes have gas tanks that have bottoms below
> the float level these days and have similar devices
I din't know the Mikuni VM that well - but it will probably come
with 2 different needle seats - one for gravity feed and the other for
a pump. I have used electrical pumps mainly - with no problems -
a lot of the Jap sports bikes ( cruisers too ? ) run them.
I've used the pulse type as well - trouble is that after changing jets
it takes forever to fill the bowls back up again turning the motor over -
probably worse with a motor with more cam overlap ( less vacuum ).
Both types are self regulating for pressure - usually 2.0 - 2.5 psi.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:27:53 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis fuel pump
A nice thing about the fuel pump is it lets you reposition the fuel
load in the chassis where you want it to be, instead of where gravity
needs it to be.
Try running a T fitting in the fuel line right before the carb, with
a return line to the fuel tank. That should help keep the pressure
under control a bit better without adding in a regulator.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, San Francisco CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American distributor of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
Host of 7 m/c email lists (details on the web site)
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:31:26 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Fuel pumps
> I've used the pulse type as well - trouble is that after changing jets
> it takes forever to fill the bowls back up again turning the motor over -
> probably worse with a motor with more cam overlap ( less vacuum ).
Hello Ian,
One thing you can do is to have a little squeeze bulb that you can
hook up to the diaphragm port to rapidly cycle the pump to refill the
fuel lines.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:38:02 -0800 (PST)
From: "john.mead"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Radial Engines
They did not have a throttle. Engine speed was controled by interrupting the
ignition. They were hand started on the ground at full throttle, with the
wheels chocked to keep them in place until the person pulling the prop got
to safety.
The horsepower and torque on these early radials was not high. The plains
had more problems being "close coupled". Close coupled means that the
engine is close to the center of gravity and causes the plane to have twitchy
handling.
John Mead
- ----------
> At 10:55 PM 1/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Those planes are really neat to watch/hear fly. The engines have to
> >remain at constant revs (1300 rpm +/- i think)..
>
> Why? Have always heard they had throttles, if otherwise they'd be hard to
> start and very dangerous to the guy cranking it.
>
> They may have been run at constant speed in the air; this would be good
> idea too, as if throttled up and down while flying the varying torque would
> tend to affect control. This was a problem in some aircraft anyway, due to
> power and size of prop. <=The Mustang comes to mind, that 12' four-blade
> had about 2400 Hp behind it.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:45:02 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Radial Engines
john.mead wrote:
> They did not have a throttle. Engine speed was controled by interrupting the
> ignition.
Sounds like the board track race bikes of 80 years ago,
which had no controls except bicycle-pedals and a compression
release (for starting), and an ignition kill switch to blip for
speed control.
Riding one of these would have involved tickling the switch to bleed off
a bit of speed, and picking your moment, on the exit, to let go the
switch, hang on to the bars, and let the motor pull...
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:35:29 -0800
From: Paul Sayegh
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis fuel pump
Michael Moore wrote:
> A nice thing about the fuel pump is it lets you reposition the fuel
> load in the chassis where you want it to be, instead of where gravity
> needs it to be.
>
> Try running a T fitting in the fuel line right before the carb, with
> a return line to the fuel tank. That should help keep the pressure
> under control a bit better without adding in a regulator.
On the Jet Skiis I use a Mikuni jet pushed in the return line to give me the pressure I need. You
can leave an outboard motor gas tank squeeze bulb in-line all the time. They are small. Will
prime entire system in a couple of squeezes.--
................................................................
Paul Sayegh
V-Max Technical List Administrator
VMOA Northwest Director
V-Max web page http://www.sayegh.org/tips.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:59:45 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis fuel pump
Hello Paul
> On the Jet Skiis I use a Mikuni jet pushed in the return line to
> give me the pressure I need. You can leave an outboard motor gas
> tank squeeze bulb in-line all the time. They are small. Will
> prime entire system in a couple of squeezes.--
I was thinking about having to get a bulb from a blood pressure
tester - the outboard motor item will probably be easier to get!
thanks for the tip,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:27:34 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis Kroil/Silikroil
I've heard great things about the penetrating ability of these
products for loosening rusted stuff (which I get a lot of here at
the beach) and preventing rust. I think there are some people on
the list who've got some experience with these lubricants.
The SiliKriol (Kroil with silicone) is a bit more expensive - any
reason to pop for that vs the standard Kroil?
Also, are the other products from the Kroil mfgr wizbang items too?
www.kanolabs.com
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:38:21 -0600
From: Geo van der Merwe
Subject: MC-Chassis Paint Advice
I need to paint my TZ for the upcoming season. I phoned around and one
place wanted $600, which I think is unreasonable. I am not looking for a
award winning finish, but would like the bike to look nice.
I was wondering if anybody has advice on paints that I can use. What
paints have you used that gave good results, that are also fairly
economical? Which types of paints should I avoid?
Thanks in advance,
Geo
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:05:40 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Paint Advice
> I need to paint my TZ for the upcoming season. I phoned around and one
> place wanted $600, which I think is unreasonable. I am not looking for a
> award winning finish, but would like the bike to look nice.
Hello Geo,
I paid about that for the all SFC-orange but for the white front and
side number panels paint on my F750 Laverda. That included all the
prep sanding/filling, so if your TZ is in good shape there I would
think you could do better on the price as the prep takes a lot of
time.
It sounds to me that it is best for the amateur to leave the highly
toxic two-part paints to the pros, or at least to someone who is
willing to take the risks involved with them.
You could probably do fine with a good quality auto enamel at a lot
lower price than epoxy paint.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:25:49 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: MC-Chassis Front Fender Aerodynamics?
I don't have a front fender on the Goldberg 250 and recently acquired a ZX6
front fender to adapt to the bike. Is it worth the trouble? It looks like
your typical modern sportbike front fender is not very good
aerodynamically. Air flow that would be able to flow around the fork legs
will be trapped by the fender. The late 70's Kawasaki GP bikes had fenders
that looked like they would be efficient but a modern sportbike fender
looks draggy. I know that the early H-D RR bikes didn't have front fenders.
Comments??
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:35:06 -0500
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Kroil/Silikroil
>Also, are the other products from the Kroil mfgr wizbang items too?
>
>www.kanolabs.com
>
Michael,
All their products are amazing. After trying them I became a believer.
Frank Camillieri
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #882
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Sunday, January 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 883
1. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Front Fender Aerodynamics?
2. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis 2 pak paints
3. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: [none]
4. bsags@isat.com (David Kath) Subj: MC-Chassis Needing a tool
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:59:56 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Front Fender Aerodynamics?
Hello Ray,
If you don't run a fender you get air that is being rotated along by
the tire balling up above the wheel where it hits the airstream from
the other direction, and this will help ensure that no air gets
through to the engine. You can see this in some wind tunnel
pictures of open wheel cars that are having the wheels rotated while
in the tunnel.
A fender that slopes gradually out to the full width of the forks
would be best as far as I can see - try to avoid sudden changes of
section like some of the fenders that are fairly straight and then
bounce out to "fair" in the forkslider.
Take a look at the front view of the fender on Marc Roux's XL250 rr
bike in Craig Hanson's section on the graphics pages. The fender
was designed keeping in mind the FIM rules at the time on how much
wheel/tire had to be exposed from the side. The Kawa 500GP ran afoul
of that rule with their first iteration and ended up cutting a bunch
of holes in the sides.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:42:40 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis 2 pak paints
> It sounds to me that it is best for the amateur to leave the highly
> toxic two-part paints to the pros, or at least to someone who is
> willing to take the risks involved with them.
I have used 2 pak myself but I was ultra cautious with it.
How come it smells so good if is so bad for you ?
I was in a factory once where a bloke was spraying 2 pak
in an unventilated corner without any mask at all. I pulled
the boss aside and explained that airborne cyanide was
not ideal for long life ( Death row, Hitler and all that ).
He said...' Harry's been spraying like that for years - he's
used to it now........'
BTW - even a total spray paint novice can get spectacular
results with 2 pak - it is great stuff - pity it's deadly
poisonous.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:53:24
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: [none]
People traveling down the I-77 or I-81 routes to get to Daytona are invited
to look at the URL below, for Camping. No, you don't have to be a caver to
enjoy the campground here. We will have spaces for 30-40 people and
bikes/trailers/autos at a time. Rates are reasonable, we have hot/cold
bath-house, the area is quiet and countrified but also near a large
university town with shops and entertainment, and there are lots of amusing
outdoor opportunities for the sports-minded.
Best regards,
Hoyt McKagen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:45:28 -0800
From: bsags@isat.com (David Kath)
Subject: MC-Chassis Needing a tool
Gents.... The perforated tube inside my repop Gold Star twitter muffler
has broken off near the inlet end inside the unit and is adrift. I would
like to remove it completely without cutting the body and rewelding due
to the chrome plate. The puzzle is, how could I slit it lengthwise,
collapse it and pull it out through one end or another. Use a very long
narrow compound tin snip?... Anyone out there a gynecoligist? whoops
sorry, that just slipped out.. I would appreciate any advise or help on
this little puzzle.
TIA, dave - NV
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #883
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Tuesday, January 12 1999 Volume 01 : Number 884
1. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Paint Advice
2. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Needing a tool
3. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Late response
4. Bill heckel Subj: Re: MC-Chassis 2 pak paints
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:27:26 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Paint Advice
>I need to paint my TZ for the upcoming season. I phoned around and one
>place wanted $600, which I think is unreasonable. I am not looking for a
>award winning finish, but would like the bike to look nice.
>
>I was wondering if anybody has advice on paints that I can use. What
>paints have you used that gave good results, that are also fairly
>economical? Which types of paints should I avoid?
I've tried my hand at painting with some less than satisfactory results. I
suspect that I would have done better with a diferent paint system: I went
with a 2-part catalyzed polyurethane formulae. The draw to this system was
that it was supposed to go on extremely glossy and not require buffing.
I shot it with an HVLP spray gun, and used heat lamps to cure the paint,
but I still wound up with a pebbly surface. I suspect that the paint must
be mixed *extremely* acurately. For my next painting project I will use a
small postal scale in order to mix the parts accurately.
I bought the gallon size primer, and the quart size color coat - both use
the same thinners and catalyzers - and the materials cost nearly $200.
Plain enamel would have cost significantly less, and probably would have
been easier to apply correctly.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:33:00 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Needing a tool
>Gents.... The perforated tube inside my repop Gold Star twitter muffler
>has broken off near the inlet end inside the unit and is adrift. I would
>like to remove it completely without cutting the body and rewelding due
>to the chrome plate. The puzzle is, how could I slit it lengthwise,
>collapse it and pull it out through one end or another. Use a very long
>narrow compound tin snip?... Anyone out there a gynecoligist? whoops
>sorry, that just slipped out.. I would appreciate any advise or help on
>this little puzzle.
>TIA, dave - NV
I think you could grind a hook into a cold chisel and weld the cold chisel
to a long rod. Attach the rod to a slide hammer, hook the chisel on the
far end of the perf tube and bang away.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:15:35 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Late response
A while back Julian said:
<<
Note on the S&W suspension book I mentioned: Author- Bruce Burness (for S&W
Engineered Products), 1978.
The book has some very basic and easy to understand information on
motorcycle shock/spring design and positioning. Similar information is
also covered in a few very good publications avalable from at least two
people on this list (Michael and Tony).
>>
I would highly recommend this book if it can be still be found.
It is far more comprehensive on suspension stuff than my own, simply because
that's it's sole subject, and the author knows what he is talking about.
It is the only other MC book in which I've seen similar geometric methods
for squat and anti-squat analysis, that I've often mentioned (for dive and
anti-dive also).
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:56:20 -0500
From: Bill heckel
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis 2 pak paints
I second the motion that you get amazing results from the 2 part paints. Just
use a damn good carbon respirator with LOTS of ventilation or a forced air
respirator (SCBA).
Best results I have EVER seen on difficult parts ( old frames ) and it's super
easy to apply.
Bill
Ian Drysdale wrote:
>
> > It sounds to me that it is best for the amateur to leave the highly
> > toxic two-part paints to the pros, or at least to someone who is
> > willing to take the risks involved with them.
>
> I have used 2 pak myself but I was ultra cautious with it.
>
> How come it smells so good if is so bad for you ?
>
> I was in a factory once where a bloke was spraying 2 pak
> in an unventilated corner without any mask at all. I pulled
> the boss aside and explained that airborne cyanide was
> not ideal for long life ( Death row, Hitler and all that ).
>
> He said...' Harry's been spraying like that for years - he's
> used to it now........'
>
> BTW - even a total spray paint novice can get spectacular
> results with 2 pak - it is great stuff - pity it's deadly
> poisonous.
>
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #884
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Wednesday, January 13 1999 Volume 01 : Number 885
1. WireWheels@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Chassis Paint Advice
2. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis 2 pak paints
3. "Edward Biafore" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Kroil/Silikroil
4. Julian Bond Subj: MC-Chassis Chassis geometry and lean angle.
5. Julian Bond Subj: MC-Chassis Ram-Air
6. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Ram-Air
7. Johnayleng@aol.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Chassis Paint Advice
8. "LTSNIDER" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Kroil/Silikroil
9. "Edward Biafore" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Kroil/Silikroil
10. "Edward Biafore" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Ram-Air
11. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Ram-Air
12. "Kelvin Blair" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: MC Chassis Late response
13. "I ain't who I am" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Ram-Air
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:03:25 EST
From: WireWheels@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Chassis Paint Advice
Al sez:
> I've tried my hand at painting with some less than satisfactory results. I
> suspect that I would have done better with a diferent paint system: I went
> with a 2-part catalyzed polyurethane formulae. The draw to this system was
> that it was supposed to go on extremely glossy and not require buffing.
Catylized paint dries itself. Real polyurethane is 3 part (w/reducer) and
can
only be shot over poly primer which can only be shot over blasted frames.
Dupont Imron and Ditzler "polyurethane" are true polys but only come in a
few hundred colors. Bullet proof stuff and the gloss is great. Ditzler
offers
5 different glosses just for black. I like their triple gloss black. Looks
wet
all the time. Very expensive stuff and will kill you quick if you breath it,
hardening in your lungs.
> I shot it with an HVLP spray gun, and used heat lamps to cure the paint,
> but I still wound up with a pebbly surface. I suspect that the paint must
> be mixed *extremely* acurately. For my next painting project I will use a
> small postal scale in order to mix the parts accurately.
Poly mixes with a 1-1-1 formula. I just use a measuring cup and mix each
cup on the fly. This is what airliners, fork trucks and Kenworth's are
painted with. It allows them to go thru an acid wash with no problems.
> I bought the gallon size primer, and the quart size color coat - both use
> the same thinners and catalyzers - and the materials cost nearly $200.
> Plain enamel would have cost significantly less, and probably would have
> been easier to apply correctly.
What I like is acrylic enamel w/hardener. Lets you shoot over bondo and
any primer and comes in ALL the colors. You can shoot it one step glossy
or for a pro job two step colorcoat/clearcoat and lay in your candies, pearls
and decals before the clear. It usually mixes 1-1 w/10% hardener. The
hardener is the expensive part but it makes the finish better and more like
true car paint.
_______________________________________________
Tim(Bondo)Bond 606-873-6686 3455 Oregon Rd
Wire Wheels MC Svc Versailles KY USA 40383
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WireWheels
WireWheels@compuserve.com WireWheels@aol.com
_______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:42:12 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis 2 pak paints
>I second the motion that you get amazing results from the 2 part paints. Just
>use a damn good carbon respirator with LOTS of ventilation or a forced air
>respirator (SCBA).
In my previous post, I forgot to mention that it's also really harsh on
skin - wear long sleeves buttoned at the wrist, and use butyl gloves which
can be found at hardware stores as stripping gloves. I had the misfortune
to spill a bit of the chemicals on my hands while wearing latex exam
gloves. I might as well have not been wearing anything. The thought of
the resultant blisters still gives me whips and jingles.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:06:58 -0700
From: "Edward Biafore"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Kroil/Silikroil
Michael sez:
> I've heard great things about the penetrating ability of these
> products for loosening rusted stuff (which I get a lot of here at
> the beach) and preventing rust. I think there are some people on
> the list who've got some experience with these lubricants.
The Kroil works great for cleaning the carbon sound suppressors (i.e..
silencers) for firearms!! Might work good for clean out those crusty
mufflers too.
> The SiliKriol (Kroil with silicone) is a bit more expensive - any
> reason to pop for that vs the standard Kroil?
I haven't used that as of yet.
Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200 Sporty
Glendale, AZ
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:39:16 +0000
From: Julian Bond
Subject: MC-Chassis Chassis geometry and lean angle.
I know we went over this once before, but MCS&L for Jan, Feb '99 has a
couple of articles from Andy Stevenson. The articles are full of errors
so I can only assume he hasn't read Tony's book! At several points he
states categorically that a high CoG requires less lean of the machine.
Elsewhere there is a persistent belief that long wheelbase machines need
to lean over more for a given corner and speed.
If I understand the book correctly, there are only 3 factors here.
1. The finite width of the tyre means that the contact patch moves
inwards under cornering. If the CoG doesn't also move inwards (by the
rider leaning off), then the machine has to lean more to keep balance.
If the CoG is high, the effect is less pronounced.
2. The trail of the front wheel moves the contact patch outwards. This
moves the contact centre (between the wheels) outwards so the machine
has to lean less for balance. In this case, a higher CoG has a bigger
effect and the machine has to lean more.
3. With 2. for a given corner a long wheelbase machine has to use more
steering movement and so the trail moves the front contact patch further
outwards making the 2nd effect stronger.
My feeling is that all these effects are quite small for real world
corners and bikes since 1 and 2/3 act in opposite directions. As a pure
guess then a 10% change in any variable produces a change in lean angle
required of say 1%. Has anyone plugged some real figures into the
diagrams to see the real values?
- --
- -----------============>>>>>>>>>> )+( <<<<<<<<<<============-----------
Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
MegaScooter/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
8770 M/C Suppliers, Contacts & Addresses http://www.bikeweb.com
> Do Not Use With Chlorine Bleach <
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:11:15 +0000
From: Julian Bond
Subject: MC-Chassis Ram-Air
Started thinking about after market Ram Air systems.
Does anyone know how much effort the manufacturers go to separate out
the water in Ram Air systems for when the bike is ridden in the rain? Or
is it just not a problem?
Assuming you've still got a conventional air filter, this will just get
wet rather than the engine taking in water droplets, but is this ok?
- --
- -----------============>>>>>>>>>> )+( <<<<<<<<<<============-----------
Julian Bond
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:23:47 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Ram-Air
Water injection is a good thing,
In spite of waters ability to decrease the density of the incoming oxygen charge.(did I say air?) The water droplets may "turn to steam" and add to the BMEP. (brake mean effective pressure.) +HP. Besides, there is a cooling effect ,and it keeps the combustion chamber clean. It takes a good slug of liquid H2O to put out a hot engine at high revs.
Choking the filter element would be another thing. Paper swells with humidity and passes less air (rich). Fabric the same, foam goes unaffected.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: Julian Bond
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis Ram-Air
> Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 10:11 AM
>
> Started thinking about after market Ram Air systems.
>
> Does anyone know how much effort the manufacturers go to separate out
> the water in Ram Air systems for when the bike is ridden in the rain? Or
> is it just not a problem?
>
> Assuming you've still got a conventional air filter, this will just get
> wet rather than the engine taking in water droplets, but is this ok?
>
> --
> -----------============>>>>>>>>>> )+( <<<<<<<<<<============-----------
> Julian Bond
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:47:16 EST
From: Johnayleng@aol.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Chassis Paint Advice
In a message dated 1/13/99 6:04:46 AM Mountain Standard Time,
WireWheels@aol.com writes:
> What I like is acrylic enamel w/hardener. Lets you shoot over bondo and
> any primer and comes in ALL the colors. You can shoot it one step glossy
> or for a pro job two step colorcoat/clearcoat and lay in your candies,
> pearls
> and decals before the clear. It usually mixes 1-1 w/10% hardener. The
> hardener is the expensive part but it makes the finish better and more like
> true car paint.
It has been a while since I did a "Paint gun" paint job, but i had great
results by adding the flexable additive (used for car bumpers) to the mix to
use on the body/fairing parts.
John Aylor NM
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:57:02 +0000
From: "LTSNIDER"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Kroil/Silikroil
There's an article on Kroil in the Winter 1998 issue of The Antique
Motorcycle on page 37. That's the Antique Motorcycle club of America
magazine. Sounds like it's much better than anything I've used.
Michael sez:
> I've heard great things about the penetrating ability of these
> products for loosening rusted stuff (which I get a lot of here at
> the beach) and preventing rust. I think there are some people on
> the list who've got some experience with these lubricants.
The Kroil works great for cleaning the carbon sound suppressors (i.e..
silencers) for firearms!! Might work good for clean out those crusty
mufflers too.
LYNN
"Works hard to set low standards and then consistantly
fails to achieve them."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:57:07 -0700
From: "Edward Biafore"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Kroil/Silikroil
> The Kroil works great for cleaning the carbon OUT OF sound suppressors
(i.e..
> silencers) for firearms!! Might work good for cleanING out those crusty
> mufflers too.
I really gotta stop posting when I'm half asleep!!
Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200 Sporty
Glendale, AZ
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:05:56 -0700
From: "Edward Biafore"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Ram-Air
Calvin Grandy sez:
> It takes a good slug of
> liquid H2O to put out a hot engine at high revs.
By then you'd probably have some real problems like bent rods. Water
doesn't compress very well!
> Choking the filter element would be another thing. Paper swells
> with humidity and passes less air (rich). Fabric the same, foam
> goes unaffected.
I take it a K&N would be fabric? Are we talking way too rich or just a
little? I'm trying to figure out an air cleaner for my Mikuni right now and
I was gonna have it open in the front but I do ride in the rain. Any
thoughts on this would be welcome.
Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200 Sporty
Glendale, AZ
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:38:04 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Ram-Air
>
> I take it a K&N would be fabric? Are we talking way too rich or just a
> little? I'm trying to figure out an air cleaner for my Mikuni right now and
> I was gonna have it open in the front but I do ride in the rain. Any
> thoughts on this would be welcome.
> Ed
> '91 883/1200 Sporty
> Glendale, AZ
Ed
nodda worry
K&N or filtrons, you won't have a problem.
Mixture control in the rain is only of academic interest compared to getting out of the rain.
When I was young, I rode Penton frame breathers in Florida and still managed to drown the things.
Spark plug out, tip bike bottom up, turn the engine over by turning the rear wheel to expel the crank full of water, (CPR?) invert, install plug after wiping on my soaking wet jacket sleeve. Kick franticly, as by now I have noticed many riders going around the hole that got me.
Engine starts about the same as if it where dry, (barely). Sputter and cough for about 100 yards, then back to normal. The soggy aircleaner (Filtron) doesn't even slow me down.
All narrative is in foggy retrospect. Sweat and explatives deleted.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 06:55:11 +0800
From: "Kelvin Blair"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: MC Chassis Late response
> A while back Julian said:
>
> <<
> Note on the S&W suspension book I mentioned: Author- Bruce Burness (for
S&W
> Engineered Products), 1978.
>
And then Tony said:
> I would highly recommend this book if it can be still be found.
> It is far more comprehensive on suspension stuff than my own, simply
because
> that's it's sole subject, and the author knows what he is talking about.
> It is the only other MC book in which I've seen similar geometric methods
> for squat and anti-squat analysis, that I've often mentioned (for dive
and
> anti-dive also).
>
And then Liz asked:
Morning Kelvin, just one thing, what does S & W stand for?
It may help us locate faster if we knew
If someone can tell me who is S&W that would be great.
Regards
Kelvin
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:06:48 -0500
From: "I ain't who I am"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Ram-Air
> I take it a K&N would be fabric? Are we talking way too rich or
> just a little? I'm trying to figure out an air cleaner for my Mikuni
> right now and I was gonna have it open in the front but I do ride in
> the rain. Any thoughts on this would be welcome.
I don't think K&N's are supposed to be restricted by water. It's hard
to imagine that they could be from looking at them. For some hard
data on filter efficiency, David Vizard has done a whole mess of flow
tests, the K&N's did pretty well, especially when packed with crud.
The stuff I saw (in a book on Minis I think, maybe _How to Modify Your
Mini_?) was at least ten years old, but a quick glance at
bookfinder.com shows he has at least one book published in 1998, so
there might be newer data.
That said, I've got a Ducati 750 Paso with a canister K&N sitting on
top of the downdraught weber, right behind the head tube. A lot of
road spray is stopped by the fairing, but I use it as a year round
commuter in the Boston area and it gets ridden in the rain, slush,
sand & salt a lot. When it's raining pretty hard the bike runs ok
with the revs up but gets rough at lower engine speeds. It could
be water in the electrical system, I don't know for certain, just a
data point. I've had the same behaviour from my sidecar rig when I
was running it with no rear fender and the road spray going right
onto the K&N's.
On the positive side, whenever I take the K&N off of the Ducati in the
winter I find the front side completely packed with sand & salt, but
the carb is always 100% clean, despite my not oiling the filter
anywhere near as often as I'm supposed to.
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #885
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Thursday, January 14 1999 Volume 01 : Number 886
1. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis S&W
2. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
3. GD Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
4. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Chassis geometry and lean angle.
5. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: S&W book
6. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
7. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
8. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
9. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
10. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
11. "I ain't who I am" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
12. Paul Sayegh Subj: MC-Chassis splines
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:59:50 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis S&W
> Morning Kelvin, just one thing, what does S & W stand for?
> It may help us locate faster if we knew
>
> If someone can tell me who is S&W that would be great.
Hello Kelvin,
Named after the founders - Sparks and Witham. They did some Indy car
stuff, made S&W valve springs (evolving into R/D Spring Corp, run by
a former employee), and later the S&W dampers which are pretty much
what Progressive Suspension makes.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:49:37 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
I need to find an alternate source of shift levers for my MotoBi
singles. The shift shaft is a nominal 12mm OD, and there are 22
splines on it.
This doesn't seem to match up to my 160 Honda stuff, and I'm hoping
that someone out there will check and prove to have a bike
(hopefully one for which shift levers are reasonably readily
available) with a matching spline/OD.
Thanks for looking,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:10:26 -0800
From: GD
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
Michael do you or anyone else know where i can get a broach to cut the splines that are on a
Honda Hawk shift shaft?
GD
Michael Moore wrote:
> I need to find an alternate source of shift levers for my MotoBi
> singles. The shift shaft is a nominal 12mm OD, and there are 22
> splines on it.
>
> This doesn't seem to match up to my 160 Honda stuff, and I'm hoping
> that someone out there will check and prove to have a bike
> (hopefully one for which shift levers are reasonably readily
> available) with a matching spline/OD.
>
> Thanks for looking,
> Michael
> Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:53:36 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Chassis geometry and lean angle.
Julian wisely said:
<<
My feeling is that all these effects are quite small for real world
corners and bikes ............................................ Has anyone
plugged some real figures into the diagrams to see the real values?
>>
Yes the effects are quite small particularly the trail effects, except at
very slow speeds the steering angle of a bike is quite small and so the base
line just doesn't move much at all.
The wide tyre thing is more pronounced these days with the very wide tyres
being used.
Yes I've plugged values in, but I don't have them to hand, it's simple
enough to do. If I get a free moment I'll do it again and post the results.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:11:41 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: S&W book
Kelvin asked"
>>If someone can tell me who is S&W that would be great.
S&W were ( are? ) an American manufacturer of suspension units, they were
particularly well known for their adjustable air-springs.
As far as I can remember the book was only distributed through S&W dealers
not regular bookshops, it was also written a long time ago so I image that
it will be quite hard to find. Best bet is to get all your mates to look
over their dusty book shelves.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:54:20 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
> Michael do you or anyone else know where i can get a broach
> to cut the splines that are on a Honda Hawk shift shaft?
Hello Gary,
I was talking to one of the Brit-bike guys at a swap meet last month.
He is making stuff for Buells now, and he said he had a toolmaker
make a broach for the H-D shift shaft spline so he could make shift
levers. I don't know (but would be interested to find out) if there
are standard spline broaches available - I've not seen them in the
MSC catalog.
If you could grind a lathe bit to the right profile you could make a
tool (saw one in a copy of Model Engineer) that would let you make
splines on the lathe by mounting the tool to the cross slide and
manually racking it back and forth. You wouldn't have to cut very
deep, and could maybe find a change gear with the right number of
teeth so that you could make a stop to engage the change gear so the
lathe became a big dividing head.
You can buy splined shafts in various sizes from Stock Drive
Products, but they want to sell 1-3' lengths and they get pretty
expensive.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:56:35 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
Gary,
Could you sharpen the end of a spare shift shaft and turn it into a
low grade broach? It might work for a few levers if that is all you
need.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:01:18 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
Case hardening with "CASE-N-IT" (sp) or at a shop, could answer well for many items, as exact size is not an issue here. The pinch bolt covers most of it.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: Michael Moore
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
> Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 7:56 AM
>
> Gary,
>
> Could you sharpen the end of a spare shift shaft and turn it into a
> low grade broach? It might work for a few levers if that is all you
> need.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:32:01
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
At 10:10 PM 1/13/99 -0800, you wrote:
> Michael do you or anyone else know where i can get a broach to cut
the splines that are on a
>Honda Hawk shift shaft?
It can be done one bit at time with shaper attachment on mill, over
indexing head. A broach will set you back probably $500-1000.
If originality isn't the issue for you guys, why not do what I just did:
braze onto the original a bit with the right splines for whatlever you
have. I used a bit with a portion turned to about .1", fitted into hole
drilled axially into the shaft, so I could get alignment while torching it.
Then you just fill the space between shoulders, turn or in my case
belt-grind off any excess.
Best regards,
Hoyt McKagen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:54:02
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
At 09:01 AM 1/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Case hardening with "CASE-N-IT" (sp) or at a shop, could answer well for
many items, as exact size is not an issue here. The pinch bolt covers most
of it.
As Calvin knows, using this product will also alter the dimensions and
slightly the final shape, due to scaling of the base metal. I would think
this would blunt the splines.
Best regards,
Hoyt McKagen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:23:51 -0500
From: "I ain't who I am"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
> If you could grind a lathe bit to the right profile you could make a
> tool (saw one in a copy of Model Engineer) that would let you make
> splines on the lathe by mounting the tool to the cross slide and
> manually racking it back and forth. You wouldn't have to cut very
> deep, and could maybe find a change gear with the right number of
> teeth so that you could make a stop to engage the change gear so the
> lathe became a big dividing head.
A trick I've tried is attaching a cheap indexer (the type with no
gears, MSC has 'em for $50), to the spindle of a lathe. I attached it
to a 9" Southbend by hacking up a bicycle handlebar stem, gripping the
stem in a collet and using the end that usually grips inside the
steering stem to grab inside the spindle. The alignment wasn't good
with the bicycle stem, an exterior collet sort of arrangement would
have been better, but it did what I needed to get done. The MSC
indexers (probably what I have) give 1 degree resolution, so you'd
have to have to fudge it for some values (like anything except (10,
12, 15, 18, 20, 24, 30, 36, 40, etc), but I'd bet that having any
spline off by a max of 1/2 degree wouldn't be a problem.
For you tool junkies out there, this is the sort of thing that a
shaper (basically a linear lathe) is good for. I got one (7" Atlas)
without knowing anything about them except that it was cheap and
looked cool, but it's turned out to be really useful, even though I
have a mill - the lathe bits they use are a lot cheaper and easier to
regrind than end mills. I recently cut a keyway to within about 1/8"
of the bottom of a 2" blind hole, which I would have been at a loss as
to how to do otherwise.
I once cut (partially mashed actually) splines for some rear sets with
a "broach" made from an unneeded shift shaft. I ground some teeth
with a belt sander and the shaft held in my hands, so the accuracy
wasn't good, and I didn't get the teeth particularly sharp, but it did
the job. I pressed it in with a vice used as a press, ran it through
twice and got good splines. I wouldn't try it on CroMo though.
> You can buy splined shafts in various sizes from Stock Drive
> Products, but they want to sell 1-3' lengths and they get pretty
> expensive.
Got any contact info for these folks? There are enough of us on the
list that could use 6" or so of the stuff that it might be worth
splitting a batch among us. I've swapped shift levers enough that
I've gotten the impression that there are a few pretty common splines
that would be useful in most cases.
That reminds me, I've been looking for a some kind of splined shaft
for a slip joint for two driven steered wheels, ~0.5" shaft, has to
take human power only. If anyone has any ideas for how to do it cheap
I'd love to hear about it. The Dillsburg Aeroplane Works has a bunch
of $3 U-joints that aren't listed in their catalog, they're for a
~3/8ths shaft, they look like they're for control rods. They're too
small to use on a steering wheel, and I'm not entirely convinced that
they can take the load to drive a 3 wheel HPV, but they're too cheap
to not try. If anyone has a need for any of these you should grab a
bunch now, they're surplus and are gone when they run out.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:10:48 -0800
From: Paul Sayegh
Subject: MC-Chassis splines
Being a machinist all my life, I have cut keyways in a lathe many many
times. To cut the quantity of splines in a lathe that a shifter lever
has would be next to impossible by hand indexing and dealing with the
"slop" in the head gears. It's a great method for a few splines but not
in quantity.......good luck.
- --
.............................................
Paul Sayegh
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #886
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, January 15 1999 Volume 01 : Number 887
1. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis FFE Riding Styles
2. "dcmserv" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis splines
3. Duncan Griffiths Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
4. Alan Lapp Subj: MC-Chassis Bikes and water
5. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
6. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Internal splines
7. Alan Lapp Subj: MC-Chassis Thumper racing
8. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis (Fwd) S&W suspension book
9. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
10. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis FFE Riding Styles
11. Julian Bond Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:45:17 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis FFE Riding Styles
I remember reading on Tony's site about a "anti-pitch bar" device that
he put on an FFE bike. The point that stuck in my memory was that the
device didn't seem to make a big difference until he removed it and his
riding became ragged.
This got me thinking about the handling differances betwixt FFE and
telescopic bikes, for racing purposes especially. Is there a particular
riding style that a well set up FFE bike favours? For example supose you
had a good handling TZ250 and a similarly sized, powered and of like
weight FFE bike, how would the riding change?
- -Yousuf Hakim
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:10:21 -0500
From: "dcmserv"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis splines
It is a fairly complex setup, but one way to correctly index a part to cut
splines on a lathe is as follows:
Pick any tranny gear with the same number of teeth as you want to cut
splines.
Make a shouldered bushing that slip fits over the part to be splined and
press fits into the gear I.D.
Drill and tap for a set screw through the shoulder area, then press into the
gear.
Slide the assembly over the part to be splined and tighten in place with the
set screw.
Make a bracket that mounts to the headstock or any fixed point that will not
be in your way, that comes very close to the gear. Drill and tap a hole that
will intersect the gear teeth through the bracket.
Use a set screw or thumb screw between the teeth to lock the part in place
at each index.
Broach as described by other list members.
It works, I've done it.
DG
>Being a machinist all my life, I have cut keyways in a lathe many many
>times. To cut the quantity of splines in a lathe that a shifter lever
>has would be next to impossible by hand indexing and dealing with the
>"slop" in the head gears. It's a great method for a few splines but not
>in quantity.......good luck.
>
>--
>.............................................
>Paul Sayegh
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:53:47
From: Duncan Griffiths
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
I'm in the middle of making an aluminium gear lever now and used this
approach on the splines. I found a shaft in good shape at the junkyard and
cut the gearchange stuff off the other end. The first attemp buggered up
the boss as I pulled it out. The removed metal stuck in the "broach" and
wiped out some of the splines I had cut.
Then I cut the shaft down to a smaller diameter and pushed it all the way
through for a good result. I used a proper press to get it through and
paid careful attention to keeping it all straight. This was aluminum and
it still required a fair bit of force to get it through.
For steel parts, I'm sure it would be more difficult, as the part is about
as hard as the broach. It would probably pay to harden your shaft first.
I thought that it might pay to slit the clamp first, then spread it
slightly as you take the first cut, gradually pulling it together as you
get the splines deeper. You might want to get two shafts to do this, using
the first one to do the rough cutting and a fresh one to do the final
stage. I paid $5-10 for mine.
Duncan
============
From: "Michael Moore"
Could you sharpen the end of a spare shift shaft and turn it into a
low grade broach? It might work for a few levers if that is all you
need.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:07:17 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: MC-Chassis Bikes and water
>sand & salt a lot. When it's raining pretty hard the bike runs ok
>with the revs up but gets rough at lower engine speeds. It could
>be water in the electrical system, I don't know for certain, just a
I found an intriguing flaw with a hand-made coil mounting bracket I made
for my old 1100 Katana. It would run poorly and occasionally quit entirely
in heavy rain. The bracket was just close enough to the signal leads on
the coils to hold a droplet of water, shorting the ignition. Relieving the
bracket 1/8" around the leads solved the problem.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:11:01 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
> Michael do you or anyone else know where i can get a broach to cut
>the splines that are on a
>Honda Hawk shift shaft?
> GD
FWIW, all hondas seem (standard disclaimer) to use the same dia/spline
count. For my race hawk, I use a shortened honda dirtbike lever to achieve
GP-shifting.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:22:17 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Internal splines
> Michael do you or anyone else know where i can get a broach to cut the
> splines that are on a
> Honda Hawk shift shaft?
> GD
>
I assume you aren't going into mass production - I would do them
one at a time in my mill or even my lathe.
The advantages are that the depth of cut is very shallow and the
pitch very fine - so the cutting force is low. If you have a dividing
head just put tool on the mill quill ( make up a little lock device
to stop it turning ) and cut by hand with the quill feed ( bridgeport type
mills ).
On a lathe you could just wrap a tape measure around the chuck
and scribe your divisions onto it. A typical 250mm chuck - thats
785 mm around you will be able to position it to within 1mm
with a little pointer - so that's way better than 1/2 a degree and
you have the dial on the X-slide to come back the same depth
each time.
BTW - saw an old bloke once who had a linkage set up that hooked
into the tailstock then bolted into a spare tool spot on the tool
post that he used for cutting keyways / splines in his lathe.
Just operated the handle by hand - he had a method of disconnecting
the feed pinion from the rack too I think.
He was very fast and cut the full depth farm machinery splines
indexed just to marks on a chuck as I described - you learn a thing
or two by keeping your eyes open in a bush engineeering shop.
( things that aren't in the text books )
When I was an apprentice I loved to work an old slotter we had with
a 3 ft stroke - we did all sorts of prototype work for car companies
etc and you can actually hand sharpen a tool to within a thou with
practice. I do involute spline tools by hand too - ( trade secret time )
just make up a plaster cast off the shaft and hold it up to the light.
Better if you have toolroom comparitor - but I've never had a fit
that I wasn't happy with.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:28:37 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: MC-Chassis Thumper racing
This may be of interest to some. Please forgive the bandwidth if you're
not one of them.
_____
Hello, Thumper Fans.
Bob Stanley, of FASTTRAX, sent the message below. In short, he is
willing to stage a thumper event - an all day thumper event, even. He is
also willing to post related information on the FASTTRAX web-site
(http://www.fastone.com).
I think this is a great idea. To make it happen, genuine interest must
be generated. To make it flourish, we must get as much participation as
possible - including those beyond my reach on the mailing lists to which
I belong. So like the cry go out across the land.....
I am sending this to the Thumper, Race, Vintage RR, and the Hawk list, as
well. I have forwarded all the responses I received(both from my recent
post and the one about a month ago) to FASTTRAX, CCS, WERA, Christopher
Ford and Rick Beggs (Fastlane - I am looking for series sponsorship - if
you can find one, let us know). I will continue to forward responses.
Let's get this thing going!
Our motto? "There can only be ONE!" (stolen from the "Highlander", but
its all within the Celtic family)
Be sure to read Bob's message below.
There Can Only be ONE!
Tom Fitzpatrick CCS, WERA, WERA Vintage, AHRMA #806
GB500&Hawk
Celtic Racing (celticracing@juno.com)
Sponsored by Fast Lane Cycles - 4215 B Walney Rd; Chantilly ,VA 22021
fastlanecycles@erols.com 703-818-8890
http://www.fastlanecycles.com
- --------- Begin forwarded message ----------
From: "rstanley"
To: celticracing@juno.com
Subject: Re: Thumper Only Series at Summit?!?!?!
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:03:16 -0600
Message-ID: <369D2627.1FC0556@neo.rr.com>
References: <19990112.221936.12502.6.CelticRacing@juno.com>
Tom,
IF the interst is there, I'd be willing to test a Thumper Only class
structure at Nelson Ledges at our FASTTRAX Series, hell I own an SRX
myself
and other than AHRMA there really isn't any place to race it. I know Tim
Barker, Knapp, Weber, Skrbin and the rest would LOVE a Thumper class/es
race. I've even got a basic class structure and rules... Under 500, 540s,
600s A/B/C, Water-cooled, and Two smoke. Slicks and rains ok.
Let me know.
Bob Stanley
330 494-8410
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:50:46 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis (Fwd) S&W suspension book
The book was sold direct by S&W via their distributors/dealers - I
don't remember it ever being in a book store.
Cheers,
Michael
- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From: "Tony Foale"
To:
Subject: S&W suspension book
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:05:24 +0100
Further to the previous posts on this subject, I've just found my copy of
this 41 page booklet.
It has no publication date on it, no publisher name, no ISBN number, no
address etc.
Thus as I suspected, it looks like it was just an internal production by
S&W. So if S&W no longer exist, there would seem to be little chance of
finding a copy unless you can find an old dealer that's got one left on the
back shelf.
Tony Foale.
Espana / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:01:25 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
http://www.sdp-si.thomasregister.com/olc/sdp-si/home.htm
is the home page for Stock Drive Products/Sterling Instruments.
I just found it so haven't had a chance to check things out.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:21:11 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FFE Riding Styles
Hello Yousuf,
I'd think that with a FFE that moved smoothly in reaction to bumps
during braking you might be able to "work" the front end a bit harder
than with a telefork bike.
The Julians (B&F) can probably shed some light on this.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:43:19 +0000
From: Julian Bond
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Shift Splines
In article , Alan Lapp
writes
>> Michael do you or anyone else know where i can get a broach to cut
>>the splines that are on a
>>Honda Hawk shift shaft?
I'm not sure we heard why you needed to cut a new shift shaft. If you're
making pieces to fit on the shift shaft, surely you could just modify
existing bits. If you need a new shift shaft, why not just get one. If
you need a longer shift shaft, perhaps an offset lever would be easier
and this might well be available off another model.
>FWIW, all hondas seem (standard disclaimer) to use the same dia/spline
>count. For my race hawk, I use a shortened honda dirtbike lever to achieve
>GP-shifting.
ISTR the brake side was a different diameter to the gear side on a Honda
VT500. I was modifying a shift lever to provide a lever for forwards
controls on the brake side and the shaft had one extra spline. A bit of
creative bodging and a *tight* locknut did the job but I wouldn't
recommend it!
- --
- -----------============>>>>>>>>>> )+( <<<<<<<<<<============-----------
Julian Bond
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #887
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Saturday, January 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 888
1. Julian Bond Subj: Re: MC-Chassis FFE Riding Styles
2. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis FFE Riding Styles
3. "Ken Canaga" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: S&W book
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:49:52 +0000
From: Julian Bond
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FFE Riding Styles
In article <199901150320.TAA27086@mail2.sirius.com>, Michael Moore
writes
>I'd think that with a FFE that moved smoothly in reaction to bumps
>during braking you might be able to "work" the front end a bit harder
>than with a telefork bike.
Well a lot of FFEs work worse than Teles, so be prepared for unwanted
dynamics.
Whoops. Wrong answer!
Ideally, you should get better suspension control under bumpy braking
and during turn in. You should also get lighter steering without it
going unstable. So an FFE should allow you to be more aggressive with
more trailing brake into a corner. Otherwise, everything should be
normal. YMMV.
- --
- -----------============>>>>>>>>>> )+( <<<<<<<<<<============-----------
Julian Bond
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:17:50 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FFE Riding Styles
Well yes, some light from... one of "The Julians". Sounds like a Las
Vegas show! Hey Michael, want to be our booking agent?
My forless(FFE) 350 was developed around an RZ350 engine. Here is what
I have noticed in comparison to a conventional RZ350 (racing
conditions). For the most part, there was little differance in overall
feel and handling of the bike. I tried to get the seat, foot peg,
handle bar, relationship similar to the stock bike (with clubman bars).
Just don't look at the wheel (the view is alot different for obvious
reasons)
The area of most difference is in hard braking do to the lack of fork
compression. There is still some dive due to weight transfer, but not
the usual nose dive. I am using an experimental brake system(front)
that works very, very well. One test rider thought the brakes were too
good. I think I need to play with different brake cylinder diamteres to
get the feel right.
The other noticable area was some chatter in the front over ripples at
100+mph speeds. I think this may be due to excess unsprung mass in the
frontend. I did a lot of over-engineering, so it could go on a good
diet and loose some pounds here and there.
One test rider hit the curbing on an inside corner at ButtonWillow and
launched the frontend into the air. Upon re-contact it stabalized
instantly with no head shake at all! It is very stable, yet easy to
flick around too.
The stearing feedback is very good. Not the slop you hear about with
Tesis, Bakkers, and other FFE bikes. A conversation with Bob Bakker led
me to a solution in this area that works very well.
Overall, the ride is quite good and I feel very comfortable on the bike.
I've tried to keep the geometry close to conventional(almost exactly the
same as a 916), so there are no suprises. One rider was able to keep
the same lap times as one of our (AFM) top 450Superbike riders on his
first time out on my forkless 350. I was very pleased...
Julian "F" Farnam
>
> I'd think that with a FFE that moved smoothly in reaction to bumps
> during braking you might be able to "work" the front end a bit harder
> than with a telefork bike.
>
> The Julians (B&F) can probably shed some light on this.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:51:57 -0800
From: "Ken Canaga"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: S&W book
I've seen several posts about the S&W book, and thought I'd add a little
more. The title is "S&W Suspension Engineering Handbook." It was written
by Bruce Burness in 1978 and is 41 pages long. It was printed in soft
cover. I'm not sure where I got my copy, but I think it was from S&W
directly. A large part of it was printed in Motorcyclist magazine as a
series in 1978. It is copyrighted by Bruce Burness.
Ken Canaga
- -----Original Message-----
From: Tony Foale
To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 1:21 AM
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: S&W book
>Kelvin asked"
>
>>>If someone can tell me who is S&W that would be great.
>
>S&W were ( are? ) an American manufacturer of suspension units, they were
>particularly well known for their adjustable air-springs.
>
>As far as I can remember the book was only distributed through S&W dealers
>not regular bookshops, it was also written a long time ago so I image that
>it will be quite hard to find. Best bet is to get all your mates to look
>over their dusty book shelves.
>
>
>Tony Foale.
>
>Espaņa / Spain
>http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
>
>
>
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #888
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Sunday, January 17 1999 Volume 01 : Number 889
1. "Tony Foale" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #888
2. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: MC-Chassis Old Cycle News tidbits
3. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis non RR frames
4. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis non RR frames
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:05:45 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #888
Julian said,
<<
Well a lot of FFEs work worse than Teles
>>
I couldn't agree more. People can contrive to make a mess of anything.
A lot of teles work worse than other teles too.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/3472
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:53:11 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: MC-Chassis Old Cycle News tidbits
Quote from a 1970 Cycle News: "...aussie Kel Carruthers is the first
european to win an AMA expert national at Daytona".
The body of Don Vesco's mc LSR holder is a drop tank from a F9F Panther
jet. One or two TR2 Yams supply power. Center hub steering.
Frank, did you win the Canadian Championship with the Norton?
Others interesting facts to follow.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:14:37 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis non RR frames
The general consensus for RR frames seems to be: make it as stiff as
possible.
But what about MX or trail or dirt track bikes. The Project 2000 dirtbikes
have taken nice stiff RR frames (916 and Tl1000s) and replaced them with
tube and/or cradle frames.
Similarly the CR250/125 twin spar was said to require a lot of concentration
to go fast on.
The off road frames on Michael's site all seemed to be stiffer then average
stock frame. Of course that is to my untrained eye.
So, how about it, if I wanted to build a trail bike to beat the Land Rovers
up the fire trails, what should the frame look like.
Yousuf Hakim
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:54:44 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis non RR frames
Hello Yousuf,
> But what about MX or trail or dirt track bikes. The Project 2000 dirtbikes
> have taken nice stiff RR frames (916 and Tl1000s) and replaced them with
> tube and/or cradle frames.
They may have been changing them for less weight and bulk, as well as
different engine positioning/wheel base/seat height, etc etc.
> Similarly the CR250/125 twin spar was said to require a lot of concentration
> to go fast on.
> The off road frames on Michael's site all seemed to be stiffer then average
> stock frame. Of course that is to my untrained eye.
It's pretty hard to stay on a given line if the wheels are busy
flexing out of line with each other and making you veer into the
bushes.
Look at the triangulated conventional FE frame that Hoyt did - that
is probably noticeably stiffer.
Then again, if you look at some of the dirt frames you may find
yourself wondering how they can work as well as they do when some of
them look so spindly. Look at a CZ frame - it uses small diameter
largely unbraced tubes, but I know from first hand experience that
they handle just fine.
It is also hard to steer out of a rut if the wheel stays in the rut
while you keep turning the handlebars more because the forks are
flexing - this would be an advantage to an FFE, and as Tony has
pointed out less rake would help for steering out of the rut.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #889
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Tuesday, January 19 1999 Volume 01 : Number 890
1. "Tony Foale" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #889
2. "Tony Foale" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #889
3. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #889
4. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis non RR frames
5. "Harry Kroonen" Subj: MC-Chassis Stainless steel for frame?
6. JBAKER1@aol.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Stainless steel for frame?
7. Geo van der Merwe Subj: MC-Chassis Trail Numbers
8. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Trail Numbers
9. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Trail Numbers
10. Julian Bond Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Stainless steel for frame?
11. "Ed Scharnhorst" Subj: MC-Chassis DeLorean notes Was: Stainless steel for frame?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:55:54 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #889
Ray quoted:
<<
: "...aussie Kel Carruthers is the first
european to win an AMA expert national at Daytona".
>>
Surely an Aussie is no more European than a Yank.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/3472
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:05:02 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #889
Michael said:
<<
It is also hard to steer out of a rut if the wheel stays in the rut
while you keep turning the handlebars more because the forks are
flexing - this would be an advantage to an FFE, and as Tony has
pointed out less rake would help for steering out of the rut.
>>
On my only trip to the US in the mid 80s. I visited Sandy Kosman's shop in
SF. There I met one of the fabricators who also rode moto-X. He was
intrigued by the account of my rake experiments in my book and built himself
a frame with about 15deg rake, I think he still used the tele forks though.
Anyway he was very impressed with the change.
Ollie's FFE has also show the benefits of the right sort of stiff suspension
design in the rough stuff. If I were to build a moto-X / enduro bike now,
that's the type of front end that I'd go for.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/3472
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 06:00:32
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #889
At 11:05 AM 1/18/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Ollie's FFE has also show the benefits of the right sort of stiff suspension
>design in the rough stuff. If I were to build a moto-X / enduro bike now,
>that's the type of front end that I'd go for.
Aside from thinking all citizens of USA are 'Yanks', Tony IMHO has yet to
fail hitting the bullseye dead center. Front end rigidity is paramount in
the dirt, because the sport is ALL maneuvering. To illustrate this, during
the first trials of my No 2, I had evidently forgotten to tighten the top
clamp bolts. Not only did it steer like a truck, but it would do
dead-fearsome wobbles at speeds as low as first gear. It was in fact
virtually unridable. When I fixed that it was everything a person could
desire, far better than a fork under all circumstances. And though I
occasionally could ride the best tele-fork bikes near their limits
consistently, I never got close to it with those. You simply can't get that
far over in the dirt; just as in RR, things start dragging the ground.
Best regards,
Hoyt McKagen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:07:34 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis non RR frames
Yousuf said: "The general consensus for RR frames seems to be: make
it as stiff as possible. The Project 2000 dirtbikes have taken nice stiff RR
frames (916 and TL1000s) and replaced them with tube and/or cradle frames."
Based on what I can see from the pictures of the Project 2000 bikes, they
replaced stiff RR frames with stiff DT frames that would allow them to use
components (seat and tank) that they were used to. Also, the new frames have
different weight distribution and fork angle than the stock frames.
Mark V.S.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:29:35 +0000
From: "Harry Kroonen"
Subject: MC-Chassis Stainless steel for frame?
Hi to all of you.
I'm working on a tilting threewheeler (a few picts on
http://www.ct.utwente.nl/~elk/index.html?hobby/brink), and Yes, it is
a Yamaha GTS1000 front, and there is a 660cc Japanese car engine in
the back (with turbo intercooler, 65bhp).
I have a question about the frame material to use:
The frame will be sheet metal, and mostly 1mm thickness. I want to
use stainless steel, so I don't have to treat it (much) after
welding.
But I'm wondering why the 'car industry' does not use stainless
steel; it's not that expensive compared to normal steel, it would be
a selling point and getting rid of a few surface treatments wouldn't
hurt the production cost&complexity.
Stiffness, strength, welding, metal pressing, nuts&bolts all don't
appear to pose real differences. So what's the thing I'm overlooking?
I'm a bit unhappy to use without knowing the REAL reasons why the car
industry doesn't use it.
And of course, I'm very interested in any do&don'ts you might have on
this subject.
Thanks,
Harry Kroonen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:35:00 EST
From: JBAKER1@aol.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Stainless steel for frame?
In a message dated 1/18/99 1:31:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
h.kroonen@brinktech.nl writes:
<< But I'm wondering why the 'car industry' does not use stainless
steel; it's not that expensive compared to normal steel, it would be
a selling point and getting rid of a few surface treatments wouldn't
hurt the production cost&complexity.
Stiffness, strength, welding, metal pressing, nuts&bolts all don't
appear to pose real differences. So what's the thing I'm overlooking?
I'm a bit unhappy to use without knowing the REAL reasons why the car
industry doesn't use it.
>>
The real reason is you can't paint it. If you cant paint it, you can't repair
and patch with bondo. This sounds simplistic but it is why so many people
hated the Delorean.
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:07:39 -0600
From: Geo van der Merwe
Subject: MC-Chassis Trail Numbers
I noted in the newest edition of Roadracing World that they mention Chris
Ulrich's TZ250 has 2.3 mm less trail with the Dunlops than with Michelins.
This they say "... would be the reason for the extra sensitivity" (Kent
Soignier, GMD Computrack).
I was wondering if some of the more experienced members would like to
comment on this statement. I feel that the tires characteristic is more
responsible for the change in response, than the 2.3 mm trail change. In
general I am sceptical that 2.3 mm (note the .3 please...) will make a
difference in handling, but perhaps there are people on the list who have
had good experiences with such small changes.
Regards,
Geo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:29:57 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Trail Numbers
Geo,
GMD claims that for any given rake there is a range of about 3 mm trail
that would be appropriate. At the extremes of this 3 mm range the handling
would be either quicker or slower depending on which extreme you were near
{ quicker with less trail and slower steering with more trail } . I had
them 'measure' my bike but did not have it 'corrected'. All the
measurements were taken out to the tenth of a mm.
Ray
- ----------in response, than the 2.3 mm trail change. In
> general I am sceptical that 2.3 mm (note the .3 please...) will make a
> difference in handling, but perhaps there are people on the list who have
> had good experiences with such small changes.
>
> Regards,
>
> Geo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:23:16 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Trail Numbers
Hello Geo,
I'm just a "ride them as they are" rider, but it sounds like magazine
BS to me.
Maybe KR, EL, MD, etc can spot a 3mm trail change, but I'm a bit
skeptical that 99% of the other riders can, or if they can, that it
actually makes a difference.
Ever notice how these magic numbers seem to get shorter and shorter
each year? Pretty soon they'll be as short as the experiments Tony
did 15+ years ago.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:19:28 +0000
From: Julian Bond
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Stainless steel for frame?
In article <58c91f86.36a3d334@aol.com>, JBAKER1@aol.com writes
>In a message dated 1/18/99 1:31:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>h.kroonen@brinktech.nl writes:
>The real reason is you can't paint it. If you cant paint it, you can't repair
>and patch with bondo. This sounds simplistic but it is why so many people
>hated the Delorean.
Plus, it was really easy to leave sticky hand prints all over it that
were a bitch to remove.
- --
- -----------============>>>>>>>>>> )+( <<<<<<<<<<============-----------
Julian Bond
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:56:41 -0500
From: "Ed Scharnhorst"
Subject: MC-Chassis DeLorean notes Was: Stainless steel for frame?
- ----------
> From: Julian Bond
> > >The real reason is you can't paint it. If you cant paint it, you can't
repair
> >and patch with bondo. This sounds simplistic but it is why so many
people
> >hated the Delorean.
>
> Plus, it was really easy to leave sticky hand prints all over it that
> were a bitch to remove.
>
My brother had to put a door on one a few years back (he's a body man). The
insurance company _spec'd_ it as a 40 (yes forty) hour job. The owner had
also cleaned the car with steel wool. You know, just like a sink. Leeetle
tiny rust spots everywhere from the wool particles. Hee hee hee.
Ed Scharnhorst
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #890
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