Motorcycle Chassis Design Digest #841-850
MC-Chassis-Dgst Wednesday, December 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 841
1. Fred Martinson <2feetup@coffey.com> Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Scales..
2. "john.mead" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
4. authier@ibm.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
5. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Scales..
6. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - forkless bike questions.
7. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - forkless bike questions.
8. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - forkless bike questions.
9. bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst P to B clearance
10. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - forkless bike questions.
11. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Data formats.
12. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Double single
13. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 20:14:38
From: Fred Martinson <2feetup@coffey.com>
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Scales..
At 12:37 AM 12/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>On the subject of scales, I thought I would toss in a useful tip from a
>friend..
>
>Many of the larger post offices around here anyway have a large UNISYS scale
>securely bolted to the counter in the area that is open 24 hours.
>
I just got done weighing a Gas Gas trials bike, in pieces, at the local
post office, the motor was 52 pounds, may be the limit for weight would be
100 lbs or so. The frame was a pain, trying to balance it.
Fred
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:49:48 -0800 (PST)
From: "john.mead"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
In England there is a 45ci Harley bottom end with two Matchless G80 top
ends on it. I also has a AMC gearbox. You could use G80CS or G85CS
top ends with a WR Harley racing bottom end and Carillo rods. Megacycle
grinds Harley WR cams.
John Mead
- ----------
> I understand this has become the "de facto" engine design group so here
> goes. If one were to go out in the shop and pick thier favorite
> single[is there any other than a single one could call a favorite?] and
> start making a V twin out of it, what needs enlarging? Mains bearings,
> rod pin, oil pump? Any thoughts on the subject? Cheers Bob
> PS Yep, in my case, the favotie is a big fat single.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:23:59 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
You could just buy a Folan V-twin - made with two Husaberg single top
ends. Well, at least you can if you can talk them into selling you
one.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, San Francisco CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American distributor of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
Host of 7 m/c email lists (details on the web site)
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 21:38:38 -0700
From: authier@ibm.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
Michael Moore wrote:
>
> You could just buy a Folan V-twin - made with two Husaberg single top
> ends. Well, at least you can if you can talk them into selling you
> one.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
Hi all,
Sorry that I don't post that much, I have been deep into planning to
build a house, and I mean build....not pay for it. What a job. Anyway,
I have faxed and e-mailed FOLAN, oh, about a hundred times. No answer.
Too bad, their motor sounds really cool.
happy trails,
Marc Authier
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:26:43 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Scales..
OK Fred! How much did the frame weigh?
Swiss
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Scales..
>I just got done weighing a Gas Gas trials bike, in pieces, at the local
>post office, the motor was 52 pounds, may be the limit for weight would be
>100 lbs or so. The frame was a pain, trying to balance it.
>
> Fred
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:33:16 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - forkless bike questions.
Why not just put it on Michaels Web Site. If he is going to get the
information that might make sense.
Swiss
>Julian,
>
>Could you make the form available electronically as a bitmap?
>> I will also put together a data outline sheet that I can send out by fax
>> to anyone who anticipates having a bike apart or components that can be
>> weighed.
>>
>> Julian
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 21:54:21 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - forkless bike questions.
> From: "Jim Schneider"
> To:
> Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - forkless bike questions.
> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:33:16 -0700
> Reply-to: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Why not just put it on Michaels Web Site. If he is going to get the
> information that might make sense.
If it could be saved as an Adobe Acrobat file that can be read by
anyone with the free reader, and the stuff looks quite nice.
Also, it could probably be done up in a spreadsheet with boxes,
shading etc - I'd think that a simple sheet in Excel or 123 could
probably be opened up by most any current spreadsheet.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 22:54:46 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - forkless bike questions.
> > Why not just put it on Michaels Web Site. If he is going to get the
> > information that might make sense.
>
> If it could be saved as an Adobe Acrobat file that can be read by
> anyone with the free reader, and the stuff looks quite nice.
>
> Also, it could probably be done up in a spreadsheet with boxes,
> shading etc - I'd think that a simple sheet in Excel or 123 could
> probably be opened up by most any current spreadsheet.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
I made a simple worksheet today that I will fax to anyone who wishes to
take the time to weigh a bike part by part (or assembly). This can be
photocopied (for more than one bike) by each recipient and will keep the
process organized. Once they are filled out and sent back, they can
then be compiled into a comarison chart so that we have a part by part
comparison of various bikes.
If someone else would like to post it electronicly, that would be great
too...
This should keep our data somewhat similar. (so we don't have someone
weighing each individual gasket and screw and another weighing his
frame, engine, and luggage rack as one assembly)
I have agreed to compile the returned information. Once we have several
bikes to compare, we can then decide how best to distribute the results
or figure out a way to continue updating a data base.
Waiting for comments,
Julian Farnam
andbike@pacbell.net
925-606-0311
fax 925-606-0312
p.s. I have access to three or four bikes that I plan to weigh although
some have had organ transplants - RZ250R with FZR wheels and frontend;
NT650/F2 frontend/VFR rr wheel; RZ500/FZR1000 frontend and wheels;
RS250/CR500 engine; plus some misc. stuff - marvic wheels, TZ250J
frontend, Rotax engine(600).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:53:07 -0500 (EST)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst P to B clearance
I know that we've thrashed the subject of excessive exhaust cam wear on
Honda CB450 twins before but do you think that any of these anti friction
coatings might help to mitigate that problem?
>
>Joe mentioned:
>> *if the cylinders are done could I tighten up on the piston to cyl
>> clearance? Any other mechanical benifits?
>
>I have a friend who does thermal and friction coatings. He has coated the
>tops of pistons for me with a ceramic and this has allowed the piston to
>bore clearance to be reduced dramatically. The ceramic reduces the heat
>input into the piston ie it limits its expansion. He also does dry film
>moly coatings, all parts, gears, cams pistons etc. I was always a little
>skeptical of these but one engine Ray Eason did for drag racing picked up
>7HP by coating the cams, and gears(transmission) only!
>
>Coating the combustion chamber also proves benificial.
>Cheers
>Kelvin
>
>
- --
Peter Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or engelbp@mczcr.gov.on.ca
Vintage Road Racing: it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 08:14:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - forkless bike questions.
- -> If it could be saved as an Adobe Acrobat file that can be read by
- -> anyone with the free reader, and the stuff looks quite nice.
- ->
- -> Also, it could probably be done up in a spreadsheet with boxes,
- -> shading etc - I'd think that a simple sheet in Excel or 123 could
- -> probably be opened up by most any current spreadsheet.
Why encrypt it into weirdball proprietary formats when a simple ASCII
list would let anyone access the data, even without a GUI and fancy
viewer software?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:46:49 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Data formats.
I agree!
Save the results of any formatted work as text only, and let the user reformat as desired.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: Dave Williams
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - forkless bike questions.
> Date: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 8:14 AM
>
>
> Why encrypt it into weirdball proprietary formats when a simple ASCII
> list would let anyone access the data, even without a GUI and fancy
> viewer software?
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 02:30:13 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Double single
> I understand this has become the "de facto" engine design group so
> here
> goes. If one were to go out in the shop and pick thier favorite
> single[is there any other than a single one could call a favorite?]
> and
> start making a V twin out of it, what needs enlarging? Mains bearings,
>
> rod pin, oil pump? Any thoughts on the subject?
Well I know a bit about this subject ( with the V8 ) - but I
also have a friend building a double XR 600 and another
'email buddy' of the female variety who is building a 100cc
boxer using Honda 50 bits - believe it or not.
A roller bottom end is simpler as you only need a pin twice
as long and press it all up - you need twice the oil pump
capacity but the gearbox will not be a problem as the torque
peaks are no higher - just twice as many.
BTW - my old CX 750/800 desert racer motor is alive
again - but not by me. I advertised my stock of CX motors
and found another CX nut - who wants to carry on where I
left off. Laugh as much as you like - the CX is a good
solid motor and actually resonably light weight ( true ).
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:07:38 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
Hello all,
For what it is worth, I'm listing an outline(list format) of a worksheet
for every one to review and use. So, far there has been a lot of ideas
on how to post the results. However, only one person has contacted me
for a copy of this form. I hope this does not become a case of everyone
wanting to see the results, but no one taking the time to contribute
data...
bike weight worksheet
bike make, model, year:
frame, main:
frame, sub:
frame, total:
engine:
carb,air cleaner:
exhaust:
radiator:
chain:
ignition:
drive train, total:
seat:
fuel tank:
fairing, wind screen:
lighting, headlight, tail, signals :
instruments, tach, speedo:
foot controls:
battery:
misc:
toatl body:
front wheel:
front tire:
front rotor(s):
front axel:
front caliper(s):
front fender:
fork sliders:
total un-sprung, front:
forks (complete):
tri-clamps:
handle bar, hand controls:
rear wheel:
rear tire:
cush drive, sprocket:
rear rotor:
rear caliper, bracket:
swing arm:
total un-sprug, rear:
(space to add any items not listed)
net weight, front:
net weight, rear:
gross weight:
items to calculate
un-sprung front/net front:
un-sprung rear/net rear:
un-sprung/gross:
please note whether weights include fasteners, bearings, seals,
brackets, cables, etc. It should also be noted if weights are
calculated. example: you weigh a wheel with the tire, then subract the
weight of a similar tire to get the weight of the bare wheel.
1kg. = 2.2046 lb. (on Earth only)
I will also try to keep a list of the bikes people plan to weigh to
prevent duplication.
I also think it will be helpful to get weights of intresting component
groups if complete bikes are not available. example: I plan to weigh a
TZ250 frontend and a set of Marvic wheels off an old race bike.
Julian Farnam
andbike@pacbell.net
925-606-0311
fax 925-606-0312
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #841
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Wednesday, December 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 842
1. duncan.griffiths@horiba.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
2. Henry Cutler Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
3. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Lightening methods
4. "Phil Dorman" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis seamed tubing for morgan chassis
5. "Phil Dorman" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis seamed tubing for morgan chassis
6. "Phil Dorman" Subj: MC-Chassis V twin angles
7. "Phil Dorman" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
8. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
9. Julian Bond Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
10. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
11. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
12. Les Mulder Subj: RE: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:31:00 -0800
From: duncan.griffiths@horiba.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
We've all got this worksheet now, so the postal scales will be getting a
lot more work in the near future. For those of you who will be
contributing, perhaps some explanation with each weight would be
appropriate, such as with or without oil, cables, etc. I'll do my part for
a '93 TZ.
How does one determine the unsprung portion of the swingarm/linkage/damper?
Is it just half of total?
Duncan
===========
From: Julian
For what it is worth, I'm listing an outline(list format) of a worksheet
for every one to review and use. So far there has been a lot of ideas
on how to post the results. However, only one person has contacted me
for a copy of this form.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:36:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Henry Cutler
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
I imagine that people will contribute, but not often in such a
comprehensive manner. I'll weigh and submit as I work on my bike in a
piecemeal fashion. It'll take time to accumulate a considerable body of
data, so list members should be reminded periodically and newbies
informed.
- -Henry
Henry Cutler
Daedalus@mediacity.com
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Julian wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> For what it is worth, I'm listing an outline(list format) of a worksheet
> for every one to review and use. So, far there has been a lot of ideas
> on how to post the results. However, only one person has contacted me
> for a copy of this form. I hope this does not become a case of everyone
> wanting to see the results, but no one taking the time to contribute
> data..
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:47:08 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Lightening methods
<<
Why encrypt it into weirdball proprietary formats when a simple ASCII
list would let anyone access the data, even without a GUI and fancy
viewer software?
>>
Add simplicity and you add lightness.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:29:46 +1100
From: "Phil Dorman"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis seamed tubing for morgan chassis
Stephen,
This is not meant as a suggestion.
In fact the opposite.
It's just an anecdote.
I wonce built a billycart with 2 wheels at the front and one at the back.
All wheels were BMX pushbike ones. 12" dia
The rider/driver/idiot lay down on his chest with his head between the front
pair of wheels and hands on a non steering pair of vertical handgrips beside
his ears.
The rider was then about 2" off the ground.
Don't worry ! It gets stranger yet.
Each handgrip had a brake lever connected to a pushbike brake on each front
wheel.
The operator's ankles rested on a pair of steering handlebars above the
steering head of the rear wheel.
This was the scariest thing to ride.
Most attempts resulted in the riders feet bouncing off the feetlbars and the
(usually rather short) remainder of the run being steered by judicious use
of the front independant brakes.
A steering system not to be recommended and much prone to flipping the
contraption on it's ear and rolling diagonally across the hill.
At least the rider was in a full cage so no harm was done.
Oh yes. The frame was 2 BMX frames connected by rusty heavy wall steam pipe
because that was what was available.
Ahh the old days.
- ------------ Regards, Phil Dorman. ------------
Email watin@hunterlink.net.au
Convenor. Motorcycle Modifiers Register of Australia.
http://users.hunterlink.net.au/~ddped/mcmodrau.htm
Russian Motorcycle and Sidecar Owners Association.
http://users.hunterlink.net.au/~ddped/rmoa/index.html
>I wonder if any one can help me on this one. I have always had a fetish
for those English 3 wheeler (Morgans) with the
>2 wheels at the front and the 3rd at the rear. Now Ive started to make a
chassis for my big blokes billycart and need
>some help.
>
>When building a bike frame I would tend to go for unseamed thin walled
1020 or what ever . Now the billy cart chassis
>is loaded differently and uses a space frame not unsimilar to those used on
the nascars now can I get away with
>unseamed tubing I have not sat down to a free body diagram yet so have no
idea of the direction /type of loadings
>
>So directions to my thoughts would be welcome.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:31:35 +1100
From: "Phil Dorman"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis seamed tubing for morgan chassis
>What is a billy cart?
Michael,
I think I just explained this ?
No. Mine was an idiot mobile.
Bit like a Wombat I suppose !
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:35:50 +1100
From: "Phil Dorman"
Subject: MC-Chassis V twin angles
Al said.
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
>Plus, it's a 90 degree V-twin, as opposed to the 52 degree Honda motor.
>That'll make it much easier on cranks!
This is a new idea to me.
Someone mind elaborating on this?
I am currently setting up a 50 deg V twin of 1860cc and am concerned about
crank and conrod strength.
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:45:57 +1100
From: "Phil Dorman"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
From: Bob
>PS Yep, in my case, the favotie is a big fat single.
Good on yer Bob.
Does anyone remember the Big Single discussion on the FF list a couple of
years ago ?
Julian, Michael ?
Anyarchive of this ?
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:33:34 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
Ok Julian,
You have posted the worksheet, although in list form. From this we can copy
and paste to a reply to you and fill in the amounts and model of the cycle
etc.. This will come to you by e-mail post if we use your included address.
Is this alright with you? Then you get stuck with tallying and sorting all
of the information and forwarding it to Michael in a similar format. I
think that one of the comments was about the complexity of doing this amount
of work, since there is probably a method that the info could be entered
directly to Michael's site if it contained the right interactive program as
a Web Page. I know that this can be done, however I am not knowledgeable
enough to set it up. If someone is, they might step forward and assist in
doing the work needed. Don't expect everything overnight, we have other
things to do also. It will take a bit but be interesting when it grows.
Don't think that it will EVER be finished.
I have a FEW weights for you but it will take a bit to get them set up and
sent to you. Heck, I can even tell you what the Aluminum 8ga. spoke nipples
that Buchanans used to sell weigh. And then compare them to stock type
Honda 9ga. weights. HA!HA!
Swiss
It stands for Swiss-cheese Factory, because I used to drill holes in
EVERYTHING!
I don't have any of those expensive fancy Digital Scales, but I do have 5oz.
swinging balance scales, and sliding fishing scales (actually I do have a
Digital "Fishing" Scale) and a nice Baby Scale, and 2 different Bathroom
Scales one analog and one is Digital. Damn, I guess these Digital readouts
are creeping into my garage and into my Life!! Still having Fun, you must
be having a good time or you wouldn't still be reading this.
>For what it is worth, I'm listing an outline(list format) of a worksheet
>for every one to review and use. So, far there has been a lot of ideas
>on how to post the results. However, only one person has contacted me
>for a copy of this form. I hope this does not become a case of everyone
>wanting to see the results, but no one taking the time to contribute
>data...
>I also think it will be helpful to get weights of intresting component
>groups if complete bikes are not available. example: I plan to weigh a
>TZ250 frontend and a set of Marvic wheels off an old race bike.
>
>Julian Farnam
>andbike@pacbell.net
>925-606-0311
>fax 925-606-0312
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:38:01 -0500
From: Julian Bond
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
In article <009e01be1e4f$fe985b80$cc950ccb@toshiba>, Phil Dorman
writes
>From: Bob
>>PS Yep, in my case, the favotie is a big fat single.
>
>
>Good on yer Bob.
>Does anyone remember the Big Single discussion on the FF list a couple of
>years ago ?
>Julian, Michael ?
>Anyarchive of this ?
I'm sure I've got it all, but I'm not sure I want to go through it again
:) I like big singles as much as the next person, but this seemed to
degenerate into a competition to see who could imagine the biggest!
Personally, once they get much over 450cc, I'd rather go for a V Twin.
- -- --------============>>>>>>>>>> )+( <<<<<<<<<<============-------- --
Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
MegaScooter/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
8650 M/C Suppliers, Contacts & Addresses http://www.bikeweb.com
> For Home Or Office Use <
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:00:53 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
> of work, since there is probably a method that the info could be entered
> directly to Michael's site if it contained the right interactive program as
> a Web Page. I know that this can be done, however I am not knowledgeable
Don't count on it - my ISP doesn't allow any s&bscriber-generated CGI
scripts or other such interactive programming to run on their servers
- - only the stuff that they provide. I presume that something like
that would be needed to store the info into a database (though I
could easily be wrong).
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 17:58:38 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
> Ok Julian,
> You have posted the worksheet, although in list form. From this we can copy
> and paste to a reply to you and fill in the amounts and model of the cycle
> etc.. This will come to you by e-mail post if we use your included address.
> Is this alright with you? Then you get stuck with tallying and sorting all
> of the information and forwarding it to Michael in a similar format.
This is fine with me. I don't expect to have tons of data by tomarrow.
But will keep track of everything that comes my way. Then, Michael and
I can figure out how to post the info once there is enough to be
meaningful. Even if no one weighs a complete bike, just having a few
major components (wheels, forks, frames) will be helpful for comparison.
O.k. here is my e-mail, tele and fax...
Julian Farnam
andbike@pacbell.net
925-606-0311
fax 925-606-0312
p.s. I like the idea of using post office scales in the portion of the
lobby that is open at night. Mine has a 70 pounder...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:10:34 +1100
From: Les Mulder
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
Michael -
Your ISP may not allow anything sexy, but my servers have a ton of space, a
decent web engine and a SQL database -
I can a page together on the weekend that allows web data entry and queries
and we can go from there.
How's that sound?
Les
Les Mulder
Technical Director
Mulder Communications
tel +61-2-9437-9144
fax +61-2-9437-9344
e les@mulcoms.com.au
www http://les.ozemail.com.au
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Moore [SMTP:mmoore@sirius.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 12:01 PM
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
>
> > of work, since there is probably a method that the info could be entered
> > directly to Michael's site if it contained the right interactive program
> as
> > a Web Page. I know that this can be done, however I am not
> knowledgeable
>
> Don't count on it - my ISP doesn't allow any s&bscriber-generated CGI
> scripts or other such interactive programming to run on their servers
> - only the stuff that they provide. I presume that something like
> that would be needed to store the info into a database (though I
> could easily be wrong).
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #842
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Thursday, December 3 1998 Volume 01 : Number 843
1. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
2. "Michael Moore" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
3. RWa11@aol.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Double single
4. "Glenn Thomson" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
5. Les Mulder Subj: RE: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
6. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
7. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
8. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Hi-tech
9. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: CGI
10. "Stephen Watson" Subj: MC-Chassis billy carts!!
11. GD Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
12. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:26:55 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
> How does one determine the unsprung portion of the swingarm/linkage/damper?
> Is it just half of total?
Hello Duncan,
take a look at page 243 of JB's book for his thoughts on that.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:26:55 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
> I can a page together on the weekend that allows web data entry and queries
> and we can go from there.
>
> How's that sound?
>
Hello Les,
As you know, I'm always glad to let other people volunteer to do work
on this stuff (any progress with the searchable and ever-expanding
archives project?).
Yes, I own the chassis list, but that doesn't mean that every last
bit of our stuff needs to reside on my website - there should be
plenty to go round.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:24:58 EST
From: RWa11@aol.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Double single
In a message dated 98-12-02 10:29:36 EST, you write:
<< my old CX 750/800 desert racer motor is alive
again - but not by me. I advertised my stock of CX motors
and found another CX nut - who wants to carry on where I
left off. Laugh as much as you like - the CX is a good
solid motor and actually resonably light weight ( true ). >>
Hello Ian
No one's laughing here, the CX is a damn fine motor. A testament to the
strength of that motor is the output of the turbo motors that Honda produced
with very minimal mods. I never was fan of liquid cooling, (an irrational
personal prejudice), so I never really dabbled with one. However, I'd be real
interested to see the weights on that motor. I realize you make your living
with motor bikes, and may not have time to fill out the form that is going
around, I'd appreciate a good round number of lbs or kg.
Rex Wallace
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 22:48:56 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
On 2 Dec 98, duncan.griffiths@horiba.com wrote:
> How does one determine the unsprung portion of the swingarm/linkage/damper?
> Is it just half of total?
No, that would be far too easy. The effect at the rear wheel depends
on the ratios of the links, including the swingarm. Depending on the
geometry, these may be multiplied together.
Depending on the mass of the components compared to the moving
mass of the wheel ass'y, the error from just using half the total may
be pretty small Anybody done the comparison?
Cheers,
Glenn
gthomson(at)bserv.com
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:52:59 +1100
From: Les Mulder
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
Searchable Archives?
Snail's Pace, I'm afraid. There's a fair bit more to folder event processing
than I expected.
SQL & web is "hands behind back, typing with nose" stuff, so this can be up
PDQ.
The searchable index will happen soon too...
Les
Les Mulder
Technical Director
Mulder Communications
tel +61-2-9437-9144
fax +61-2-9437-9344
e les@mulcoms.com.au
www http://les.ozemail.com.au
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Moore [SMTP:mmoore@sirius.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 2:27 PM
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
>
> > I can a page together on the weekend that allows web data entry and
> queries
> > and we can go from there.
> >
> > How's that sound?
> >
> Hello Les,
>
> As you know, I'm always glad to let other people volunteer to do work
> on this stuff (any progress with the searchable and ever-expanding
> archives project?).
>
> Yes, I own the chassis list, but that doesn't mean that every last
> bit of our stuff needs to reside on my website - there should be
> plenty to go round.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
-----------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:13:19 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
I was thinking of engine height today, and that made this subject
come to mind.
How much attention should be paid to the arc the rear wheel travels?
I'm presuming we've got the axle/pivot/sprocket location just right,
but the engine location needs to be raised or lowered (keeping the
same relative postion to the pivot and rear spindle) for some
reason.
If the pivot starts to drop lower than the rear axle then the wheel
travel arc starts to move the wheel forward as the suspension
collapses. If it rises, then the wheel travels backwards. If at
the same height as the axle (if travel is equally dispersed around
the horizontal plane holding the pivot) the wheel will move
backwards, mostly vertical, and then forwards. It seems like the
wheel should see some sort of transient accel/decel forces so that
the road speed would remain the same as it move towards or away the
direction of travel.
I'd think that on a road bike with 4-5" of rear wheel travel it
might not make a whole lot of difference, and on a long travel dirt
bike the pivot will end up high just to keep the engine off the
ground.
Front wheels with teles generally move back and forth, though I
remember reading (probably PI's M/C Engineering) that one perceived
advantage of the girder fork was that travel could be made vertical
in the limited operating range, though then the wheel would kick
sharply forward or back at the limits of travel (short link girders
especially).
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 23:25:08 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
Michael Moore wrote:
> How much attention should be paid to the arc the rear wheel travels?
Has anyone built a bike with a conspicuously elevated swingarm
pivot, so that the wheel has a definite rearward travel as it rises?
It might make the suspension compress more easily as the wheel
rolls up the face of a bump, while giving a little extra
resistance to compression from cornering-forces.
It would clearly be awkward with a conventional "unit" engine/
trans layout, but might lend itself to bikes built around
engines not originally of motorcycle origin, with belt drives
and jackshafts here and there. I wonder how the raised pivot
would affect the desirable relationship between the location
of the front sprocket axis and the pivot axis... would one
want to set up the drive force's effect in the same way as
for a more horizontal arm, or to neutralize it by making
the axes concentric?...
Arranging the rear suspension for such a layout would be an
interesting issue in itself...
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:50:41 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Hi-tech
It was asked:
>>>What is a billy cart?
Having lived in a few countries I feel qualified to answer this.
A "billy cart" is Australian for the English "soapbox".
It can't be made any clearer than that.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:57:33 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: CGI
Michael
<>
You'll probably find that the stuff that your ISP provides will allow for
this. However, you may well experience similar problems to those that I had
with my book order form.
Not everybody's browser seems able to use these features and those hiding
behind company firewalls can have problems also.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:04:22 +1300
From: "Stephen Watson"
Subject: MC-Chassis billy carts!!
Thanks all ,
I might call the machine "the eccentrics conveyance" but still ...... michael what is crew tubing?? a
billy cart is what others call a pushcart /go-cart ..possibly was originally was a pull cart that was used
for deliveries milk ....
As to the organ chassis , torsional seems to be the biggest problem , and last nite on telly there was a
good program on car crashes -the causes /the car industry / and solutions, and they discussed the
corvair and showed footage of the suspension winding up , wheels tucking under before unwinding
and dumping the car on its roof!!!.
I thought long about phills full cage chassis on the bmx ( sounds a delightful machine ! ).
I can relate to Ian drysdales comment "That's good - you aren't Australian by chance are you ?
The only ones I've seen to out do Ozzies for cheapness
are Kiwis - you wouldn't believe some of the things I've seen NZ'ers do." because as a I emigrated to
a small rural town in the south Island of New Zealand I wish I could relate to you all about the
creations loosely called beach buggies !!!!! some of them use 747 wheels- in tandem , with 2 or
three car gear boxes mounted inline behind the nearest available engine!!!!!!!!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 07:13:09 -0800
From: GD
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
I know that when I had a Sachs ( OK I'm dating myself hahaha ) I put
a set of shocks on it that were an inch longer than stock and it went
over the ruff stuff better and didn't want to slide near as easy.
GD
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:16:51 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
Michael,
There is probably a "sweet spot" for each bike as far as where the pivot
needs to be. Witness the adjustable pivot locations on some of the Muzzy
bikes. They are looking for the perfect balance of power/traction/weight
transfer/acceleration, all influenced by the dive/anti-dive/rise/anti-rise
(simplified terminology) effects of the angle of the swing-arm under both
power and braking when acted on by the braking/horsepower-acceleration/chain
angle. Of course, as you change the sprocket diameters, this changes the
effects as was shown years ago by Horst Leitner with his A-Trak parallel
chain rollers. By changing either the engine height or the pivot location
it will affect all of these things. For a street bike very few of them are
critical, but for a race bike looking for first place, it can be the
difference won or lost. For instance, since the chain angle affects the
rise under power of the back end of the bike, it effectively helps to
control the downforce pushing the wheel onto the pavement and
assisting/limiting traction. And, all of this is combined with effective
spring rates and dampening rates for wheel control under power and braking.
Add more power and the sweet spot probably moves just a bit. Add 20+ hp
like say the Muzzy team does and it will obviously move from the stock
location.
Glad to hear someone tear this down, as it is mostly info. from reading too
much in the last 30 years.
Swiss
Subject: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
>I was thinking of engine height today, and that made this subject
>come to mind.
>
>How much attention should be paid to the arc the rear wheel travels?
>
>I'm presuming we've got the axle/pivot/sprocket location just right,
>but the engine location needs to be raised or lowered (keeping the
>same relative postion to the pivot and rear spindle) for some
>reason.
>
>If the pivot starts to drop lower than the rear axle then the wheel
>travel arc starts to move the wheel forward as the suspension
>collapses. If it rises, then the wheel travels backwards. If at
>the same height as the axle (if travel is equally dispersed around
>the horizontal plane holding the pivot) the wheel will move
>backwards, mostly vertical, and then forwards. It seems like the
>wheel should see some sort of transient accel/decel forces so that
>the road speed would remain the same as it move towards or away the
>direction of travel.
>
>I'd think that on a road bike with 4-5" of rear wheel travel it
>might not make a whole lot of difference, and on a long travel dirt
>bike the pivot will end up high just to keep the engine off the
>ground.
>Cheers,
>Michael
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #843
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Thursday, December 3 1998 Volume 01 : Number 844
1. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: MC-Chassis - Chassis Fixture
2. Mark Mason Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Chassis Fixture
3. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis CX 500 /650
4. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Chassis Fixture
5. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis - Chassis Fixture
6. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis billy carts!!
7. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
8. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis CX 500 /650
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:23:56 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: MC-Chassis - Chassis Fixture
To All-
I have an opportunity to buy an old "universal" mill (looks like a
horizontal mill with a conversion horizontal head, to me). My thought was to
take the head off, have the bed milled by a company that does truck cylinder
heads, and use the bed as a fixture for frame building.
The advantages would seem to be nice t-slots for attaching holders and
guides, adjustable knee to raise and lower work area, even a power table
feed if I want to do nice semi-mechanized MIG welding.
Drawbacks- the table is only 10x40. Is that big enough, or should I keep
looking for a 12x60 table from a big old horizontal mill?
Anything else I have missed?
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:51:49 -0500
From: Mark Mason
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Chassis Fixture
> I have an opportunity to buy an old "universal" mill (looks like a
> horizontal mill with a conversion horizontal head, to me). My
> thought was to take the head off, have the bed milled by a company
> that does truck cylinder heads, and use the bed as a fixture for
> frame building.
>
> The advantages would seem to be nice t-slots for attaching holders
> and guides, adjustable knee to raise and lower work area, even a
> power table feed if I want to do nice semi-mechanized MIG welding.
>
> Drawbacks- the table is only 10x40. Is that big enough, or should I
> keep looking for a 12x60 table from a big old horizontal mill?
>
> Anything else I have missed?
Just out of curiosity, what kind of mill and what kind of head is it?
That's a nice size for a home mill.
10 X 40 seems a bit small to me. It'd be nice to have it a bit longer
than the wheelbase of the longest bike you'll work on. I checked out
some different widths and decided that 12" was really as small as I
wanted to go.
With the caveat that it's the only way I've done it so of course it
seems like the right way to me, I'd suggest giving some serious
thought to some 12" structural channel like Michael Moore's jig.
Milling machine tables are MoFo heavy and a lot stiffer than is
needed. If you've got a lot of space then the footprint of the
milling machine wouldn't be a problem, but I really like the fact that
I can just lift the thing up and lean it against a wall when I don't
want it, it goes down to a 12" X 4" footprint on the floor. Most
milling machines I've seen have the body sticking up behind the table,
it would seriously limit access to one side of the frame. I use my
jig at one height, which is a mild inconvenience half of the time, a
bike lift would be a good way to take care of this if it bugged me
enough.
I got a 5' section of 12" wide channel at a local scrap yard for
around $35 and tossed it in the back of my car to carry it home (I
tried to move a 60" Bridgeport table once, it's probably literally
5-10 times the weight of the channel). It was bowed (across the short
axis, I didn't test it the long way) by something like .040, I had a
friend with a planer mill it flat for me. It's flat to less than .010
across the length now, and if I support it on both ends and put 220
lbs (me) in the middle it doesn't bend such that I can tell.
I had planned on having my jig bed drilled and tapped pegboard style,
but I find that C clamps work well enough and are versatile. If you
were to use the T slots then you'd need a collection of many lengths
of bolts for them, my experience is that I never have enough of the
right size (but then I guess you'll have to have enough C clamps of
the right size). The standard milling machine nuts need to slide down
from the end of the bed, so if you wanted to put one in between two
bolts that are already in place then you'd either have to take one out
or else make some that could drop down in the slot and twist 90
degrees to grab (maybe these are common for milling machines, I've
never seen any like that).
That's my $0.02, worth what you paid for it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:38:12 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis CX 500 /650
> No one's laughing here, the CX is a damn fine motor. A testament to
> the
> strength of that motor is the output of the turbo motors that Honda
> produced
> with very minimal mods. I never was fan of liquid cooling, (an
> irrational
> personal prejudice), so I never really dabbled with one. However, I'd
> be real
> interested to see the weights on that motor. I realize you make your
> living
> with motor bikes, and may not have time to fill out the form that is
> going
> around, I'd appreciate a good round number of lbs or kg.
>
Don't enter these in the data bank yet ( I have them written down
somewhere )
but the weights are close to :
CX 500 - 52 kg
CX 650 - 56 kg
This is definitely without the god awful cast iron engine mounts on
the 650 - so I presume without radiater too - but I think with carbs.
By comparison - a 504 Rotax air cooled 4 str. ( KTM, CAN AM etc )
comes in at 54 kg. A lovely motor but what a lump - I had a 350
version too - but never had it out og the frame - I would guess it
was not much lighter.
Couple of others :
ZZR 1100 Kawaski - 74 kg ( ZX 11 in the states )
750 - V8 Drysdale - 65 kg - carbs - no radiater.
750 ( Old SF /SFC ) Laverda - 81 kg ( Michael concur ? )
1200 Laverda Triple - 83 kg
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:52:18 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Chassis Fixture
Mark Mason wrote:
>
> > I have an opportunity to buy an old "universal" mill (looks like a
> > horizontal mill with a conversion horizontal head, to me). My
> > thought was to take the head off, have the bed milled by a company
> > that does truck cylinder heads, and use the bed as a fixture for
> > frame building.
> >
> > The advantages would seem to be nice t-slots for attaching holders
> > and guides, adjustable knee to raise and lower work area, even a
> > power table feed if I want to do nice semi-mechanized MIG welding.
> >
> > Drawbacks- the table is only 10x40. Is that big enough, or should I
> > keep looking for a 12x60 table from a big old horizontal mill?
> >
> > Anything else I have missed?
>
> Just out of curiosity, what kind of mill and what kind of head is it?
> That's a nice size for a home mill.
>
> 10 X 40 seems a bit small to me. It'd be nice to have it a bit longer
> than the wheelbase of the longest bike you'll work on. I checked out
> some different widths and decided that 12" was really as small as I
> wanted to go.
>
> With the caveat that it's the only way I've done it so of course it
> seems like the right way to me, I'd suggest giving some serious
> thought to some 12" structural channel like Michael Moore's jig.
> Milling machine tables are MoFo heavy and a lot stiffer than is
> needed. If you've got a lot of space then the footprint of the
> milling machine wouldn't be a problem, but I really like the fact that
> I can just lift the thing up and lean it against a wall when I don't
> want it, it goes down to a 12" X 4" footprint on the floor. Most
> milling machines I've seen have the body sticking up behind the table,
> it would seriously limit access to one side of the frame. I use my
> jig at one height, which is a mild inconvenience half of the time, a
> bike lift would be a good way to take care of this if it bugged me
> enough.
>
> I got a 5' section of 12" wide channel at a local scrap yard for
> around $35 and tossed it in the back of my car to carry it home (I
> tried to move a 60" Bridgeport table once, it's probably literally
> 5-10 times the weight of the channel). It was bowed (across the short
> axis, I didn't test it the long way) by something like .040, I had a
> friend with a planer mill it flat for me. It's flat to less than .010
> across the length now, and if I support it on both ends and put 220
> lbs (me) in the middle it doesn't bend such that I can tell.
>
> I had planned on having my jig bed drilled and tapped pegboard style,
> but I find that C clamps work well enough and are versatile. If you
> were to use the T slots then you'd need a collection of many lengths
> of bolts for them, my experience is that I never have enough of the
> right size (but then I guess you'll have to have enough C clamps of
> the right size). The standard milling machine nuts need to slide down
> from the end of the bed, so if you wanted to put one in between two
> bolts that are already in place then you'd either have to take one out
> or else make some that could drop down in the slot and twist 90
> degrees to grab (maybe these are common for milling machines, I've
> never seen any like that).
>
> That's my $0.02, worth what you paid for it.
Those are all very good points... I think you should buy the mill (if
the price is right) and use it for milling. I also have a universal
mill (Hitachi M-2U) and it is the best piece of machinery I've
purchased. I think it must have been made for making bike parts... try
machining the pivot bore of a swingarm on a Bridgeport... no thanks! I
use my Bridgee for drilling and little delicate stuff.
For flat fixtures, I tend to like 1" thick M-6 aluminum tooling plate.
It is usually ground flat. It machines well for locating standoffs and
clamping points. And it is stiff enough for most bike fabrication
projects.
That's $0.02 more...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:15:48 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis - Chassis Fixture
Mark M and Julian asked: "Just out of curiosity, what kind of mill
and what kind of head is it? That's a nice size for a home mill.
It is an "antique" Garvin horizontal mill (no horizontal cutting parts) with
a Master-Eklund vertical head. I am not too interested in using it as a mill
because I have already purchased a J-head Bridgeport and a Kondia (Spanish
Bridgeport clone) mill. I could at some point try to get this little head
running and adapt it to something else.
If you were to use the T slots then you'd need a collection of many
lengths of bolts for them, my experience is that I never have enough of the
right size (but then I guess you'll have to have enough C clamps of the
right size).
A set of clamps sells for about $35 from Enco, two sets would cover an awful
lot, wouldn't it?
The standard milling machine nuts need to slide down from the end of
the bed, so if you wanted to put one in between two bolts that are already
in place then you'd either have to take one out or else make some that could
drop down in the slot and twist 90 degrees to grab (maybe these are common
for milling machines, I've never seen any like that).
T-bolts that drop in and turn are not hard to fabricate.
10 X 40 seems a bit small to me. It'd be nice to have it a bit
longer than the wheelbase of the longest bike you'll work on. I checked out
some different widths and decided that 12" was really as small as I wanted
to go.
My plan was to make a fixture (sort of like Michael's) that would support
the steering head. This bracket/fixture would attach to the end of the
table, and the surface of the table could be used to hold the down tubes and
the SA pivot.
I support it on both ends and put 220 lbs. (me) in the middle it
doesn't bend such that I can tell.
It would be interesting to mount a dial indicator under your beam and then
put your 220 lbs. on it.
I appreciate all this input and am still deciding if I should proceed with
the purchase.
Thanks.
Mark V.S.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:26:43 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis billy carts!!
> I might call the machine "the eccentrics conveyance" but still
> ...... michael what is crew tubing?? a billy cart is what others
> call a pushcart /go-cart ..possibly was originally was a pull cart
> that was used for deliveries milk ....
Pulled by a billy goat maybe?
CREW - Cold Rolled Electric Welded
Standard seamed mechanical tubing, as opposed to DOM (Drawn Over
Mandrel) which is the above with additional processing, and seamless.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:32:48 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
Hello Jim,
> There is probably a "sweet spot" for each bike as far as where the pivot
> needs to be. Witness the adjustable pivot locations on some of the Muzzy
Yes I know that, and also that the 250 vintage bikes probably aren't
as critical on it. My concern is once that relationship is
established and I want to lower/raise the engine position. The 3
points stay in the same relationship leaving the chain pull
unchanged, but the motion of the wheel starts to get a bit odd.
Now your typical modern dirt bike seems to work OK with the lower 4
or 5 inches of rear suspension having the wheel move backwards in
relation to the rest of the bike, so maybe my 250 MotoBi wouldn't
have a problem if I lower the engine an inch or two and have a
little more forward wheel movement (as it would spend more time
moving above the swing arm pivot).
Then again, maybe I'm worrying unduly about this. I was just hoping
that I might be able to lower the engine a bit more without adversely
affecting other parts of the bike.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:32:48 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis CX 500 /650
> 750 ( Old SF /SFC ) Laverda - 81 kg ( Michael concur ? )
Hello Ian,
I recall getting a bare (no carbs, dynamo or starter) SF2 engine on
the bathroom scale (and I'll definitely weigh my racer engine on the
accurate scale before it goes in) and getting a weight around 140-145
pounds.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #844
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, December 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 845
1. "Michael Moore" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis - Chassis Fixture
2. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis More photos
4. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
5. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
6. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Hi-tech
7. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis billy carts!!
8. Tomas Tallkvist Subj: MC-Chassis added pictures at our website
9. "Ed Biafore" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
10. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Left field
11. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Tilting quad ! ( & trike )
12. Dick Brewster Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:32:48 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis - Chassis Fixture
The base of my jig is 69x12", with the steering stem mounted about 6"
from one end.
If you are going to be doing modern bike stuff with wide chain lines
then a 14" width would be helpful - 12" was quite tight on the
Laverda frame (in fact I had to end up spacing the s/a pivot plates
out from the base of the jig). The Laverda chain line is in the
3.5-3.75" from c/l range (if I remember correctly). Wider spacing of
the supports would make it easier to get in and weld stuff.
Drill holes in the side flanges, and then you can make sets of 1"
square tubing that bolt onto the sides, and have sets of holes at the
other end that you can put cross tubes in. These can then be pivoted
about the bolt in the side flange, adjusting the hole the cross bar
is through, to get things to line up. Get fairly thick wall tubing
so it doesn't crush when you tighten the bolt at the jig. If you
keep the tubes nice and straight it gives you something else that you
can measure from, at up to 3" or so above the jig base.
I can build the frame and install the rear wheel in mine, so that way
the rear rim can sit flat on the jig base and you can use the c/l of
the jig when making your wheel spacers.
I use the back end of the base as the swing arm jig.
Get a 12" dial caliper - it comes in handy. So do several of the 2
and 3' flexible metal rulers. The multi-angle magnetic welding
thingies are pretty handy too, but if they get too hot the glue
holding the plates to the magnet will loosen up. It's hard to have
too many C-clamps, and some of the Vise-grip pliers designed for
holding parts during welding are useful at times.
Do a good job of leveling the jig in all directions - then you can
use the level for checking tubes.
When I get things cleaned up a bit around the jig I'll try to take
some more detailed pictures, though the stuff on the website should
show quite a bit of detail if you hunt for it.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:16:35 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
Don't know, you just might overpower that rear tire with all of this work
that you are planning. Actually you have to remember that a modern off-road
bike with 11+ inches of travel will also be using a 21-23" swing-arm. This
will increase the radius and lessen the change in wheelbase length for the
same amount of travel. Since you are probably going to limit your travel to
maybe 4", you might go ahead and figure out what your actual change in
wheelbase might be with whatever the swing-arm length you have decided on.
It could well be too little to worry about.
Jim
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
>Yes I know that, and also that the 250 vintage bikes probably aren't
>as critical on it. My concern is once that relationship is
>established and I want to lower/raise the engine position. The 3
>points stay in the same relationship leaving the chain pull
>unchanged, but the motion of the wheel starts to get a bit odd.
>
>Now your typical modern dirt bike seems to work OK with the lower 4
>or 5 inches of rear suspension having the wheel move backwards in
>relation to the rest of the bike, so maybe my 250 MotoBi wouldn't
>have a problem if I lower the engine an inch or two and have a
>little more forward wheel movement (as it would spend more time
>moving above the swing arm pivot).
>
>Then again, maybe I'm worrying unduly about this. I was just hoping
>that I might be able to lower the engine a bit more without adversely
>affecting other parts of the bike.
>
>Cheers,
>Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:05:18 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis More photos
In this latest batch (found, as usual, in the "new additions" section
of the first graphics page on my website) we've got:
The 1977 MOC Benelli Sei Bol d'Or racer
Honda 50 RR style bike
Honda 50 kneeler RR outfit
Honda 175 road racer
Cazetta scooter
Customized Moto Guzzi Falcone
Dan Gurney's prototype Feet Forwards (FF) Honda single
7 photos from an early 1970s Italian road race
A dustbin-faired1955 250 MotoBi speed record sidecar outfit
A cutaway drawing of a MotoBi engine
The first MotoBi 250cc 6 tiranti racer shipped to the USA (with
mechanics and designers in the photo)
CAD and jpg drawings of SRX600 Yamaha and CBR600F2 Honda engines
A preliminary drawing of a frame I plan to build for my MotoBi 250
vintage road racer
Some Aermacchi dirt bikes (4 stroke)
Enjoy!
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:08:14 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
> It could well be too little to worry about.
But Jim, if I didn't spend a lot of time worrying about all this
stuff I might actually get into the garage and do something.
Actually, I did make a couple of offset cam keys for my Laverda over
the weekend so I did make some small bit of progress in the garage.
Cheers,
Michael
--------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:13:07 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Hi Michael,
Are you guys just trying to make me worry about my Triumph? So far I have
found out the caster is off by 5 degrees, the wheelbase is a few inches too
long, my SA is parallel to the ground because the engine is too low and I
don't have a fork brace or steering damper. In fact the engine is so low I
sometimes ground the front of the primary case.
I was going to use longer dampers to raise the rear but then I would have
had to change the exhaust so the SA could drop. I decided it was easier to
just live with it. Maybe this winter I will get around to some of these
things.
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:13:42 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Hi-tech
Tony Foale wrote:
> It was asked:
>> What is a billy cart?
> A "billy cart" is Australian for the English "soapbox".
Or, in technical english, a gravity-powered race vehicle
with four (or sometimes three) wheels, often of improvised
construction, which runs on a downhill course...
"Soapbox racer" works in American too...
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:20:05 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis billy carts!!
Stephen Watson wrote:
> what is crew tubing??
abbreviation for "cold rolled, electric welded" as distinct
from something like hot rolled seamless tubing.
> I wish I could relate to you all about the
> creations loosely called beach buggies !!!!!
> some of them use 747 wheels- in tandem , with 2 or
> three car gear boxes mounted inline behind the nearest
> available engine!!!!!!!!
Is there a buyers' market in aviation surplus down there
these days? I wouldn't have expected such wheels to be easy
or cheap to obtain...
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:06:58 +0200
From: Tomas Tallkvist
Subject: MC-Chassis added pictures at our website
Hello all !
A long time since I last did write ...
We have added some pictures to our website from the nordic classic cup 96,
97 also a picture of a
bike on our dyno, more to come....
www.multi.fi/norrshine
Tomas
Jakobstads Nejdens Telefon
Alholmsgatan 3
68600 JAKOBSTAD
Tomas Tallkvist
Tel. +358 6 7868250
Fax. +358 6 7868199
E.mail tomas.tallkvist@jnt.fi
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 04:11:29 -0700
From: "Ed Biafore"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
Julian sez;
> This is fine with me. I don't expect to have tons of data by tomorrow.
> But will keep track of everything that comes my way. Then, Michael and
> I can figure out how to post the info once there is enough to be
> meaningful. Even if no one weighs a complete bike, just having a few
> major components (wheels, forks, frames) will be helpful for comparison.
What do you think of having both English and metric weights on the list. I
think it would help make it easier to compare weights if everything was the
same and if both were listed everybody could use their own native system. I
know that Kg's don't mean much to me and converting to pounds is a pain in
the butt. It would probably be easier to have the data posted as both and
just compiling it rather than having to convert it all yourself. What do you
think?
> p.s. I like the idea of using post office scales in the portion of the
> lobby that is open at night. Mine has a 70 pounder...
I get a kick outta that idea too!! I can just see people walking in to the
post office at night with they're eyes bulging while I'm trying to weigh a
frame or engine.
Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200 Sporty
Glendale, AZ
http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:12:26 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Left field
My patternmaker and I are up to no good again - it is a little
off list but will still interest most listers I imagine.
There is a company ( in US ? ) that will sell you a complete
set of castings and plans for a quarter scale V12 RR Merlin
motor - that's about 420 cc if the original bore/stroke is followed.
Well Neil is sick of everyone else getting the glory and riches
( ??? ) from his handywork and we discussed a few options.
The result is a proposed model of a 9 cylinder radial of the
WW2 era also - probably based on 50cc Honda pistons and
valves etc to bring it to around 450 cc as well.
Any thoughts - advice ??
Maybe someone is already doing this ?
Cheers IAN
PS - Neil is currently just finishing a motorcycle pattern for a
couple of retired blokes with too much time ( and talent )
on their hands - I'll post a picture of the result when it sees
the light of day.
PPS - I know of a the 1/4 RR motor as a dentist I know is
building one in his back shed in one of the most
exclusive suburbs in Melbourne.
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:26:38 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Tilting quad ! ( & trike )
Have a look at this site ( hope it hasn't already been up ) .
http://www.e-net.com.br/acbsan
The tilting quads are nice renderings and the t.trike looks
well made.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 07:33:20 -0800
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
Ed Biafore wrote:
....
> What do you think of having both English and metric weights on the list. I
> think it would help make it easier to compare weights if everything was the
> same and if both were listed everybody could use their own native system. I
> know that Kg's don't mean much to me and converting to pounds is a pain in
> the butt. It would probably be easier to have the data posted as both and
> just compiling it rather than having to convert it all yourself. What do you
> think?
>
> > p.s. I like the idea of using post office scales in the portion of the
> > lobby that is open at night. Mine has a 70 pounder...
Julian or whoever is doing the work will have a lot of work to
do, so unless they are using a spreadsheet where the conversion
is automatic, I would recommend using decimal pounds. i.e 7.53
lb instead of 7 lb 8.5 ounces.
I don't personally care if we use English units or the metric
system, but it seems like the majority of the people on the list
are in the US, so English makes sense. The reason for decimal
pounds as opposed to lbs and ounces is that it's a lot simpler to
convert between English and Metric if you don't have to mess with
ounces. It's also easier to do math on the weights if you don't
have to screw with ounces.
Dick
> I get a kick outta that idea too!! I can just see people walking in to the
> post office at night with they're eyes bulging while I'm trying to weigh a
> frame or engine.
>
> Later,
> Ed
> '91 883/1200 Sporty
> Glendale, AZ
> http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #845
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, December 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 846
1. Laszlo Szerenyi Subj: MC-Chassis CR/TZ Project
2. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis CR/TZ Project
3. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
4. Dick Brewster Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
5. "Tom Melesky" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis CR/TZ Project
6. Mfstj@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis Big singles&others
7. Bob Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Double single
8. "Thomas Alberti" Subj: MC-Chassis Streetfighters Magazine
9. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
10. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
11. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis Linto for sale
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:45:47 -0500
From: Laszlo Szerenyi
Subject: MC-Chassis CR/TZ Project
I'm new to this list and I hope this isn't too far from the normal content
of the list. I've been racing for a couple of years (WERA and CCS)
and I'm changing steeds, I destroyed my other one.
I am interested in building a CR500 motored '91 TZ (slightly narrower
frame than the parallel twin 250). I'm wondering if anyone here has any
info on building something like this. I understand the person I want to
talk to, Dr. Rob Tuluie, is on this list, but of course any help would be great
Also who would be a good (willing) contact for performance/roadrace
tuning a CR500 motor (again Dr. Rob). I have access to an '87 and a
'92 motor and I'm trying to decide which one to buy. I already have the
TZ. I'm going to want a custom pipe made and a bunch of other things.
Thanks
Laszlo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:34:27 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis CR/TZ Project
Hi Laszlo,
I built a bike similar to this last year and would be glad to offer
suggestions. We used an RS250 frame with a CR500 engine. Had a portion
of the frame re-fabricated and a custum pipe made. Also, had a custom
radiator fabricated (actually cheaper than buying a new one from a
dealer and it fits the way I want it to).
The biggest problem with this combination, is the ergonomics of getting
it started. The CR engine has very good compression and the chassis is
very compact and short. In other words, it is a pain to hold the bike
steady and get a healthy kick on the engine.
Unfortunatly, the owner of the bike is still recovering from a race
injury and hasn't been able to race it yet.
Since we have been talking about weights... the CR-RS weighs in at about
205lb. That's the good news...
Julian Farnam
p.s. If you remind me, I'll scan a photo and send you a jpg.
>
> I'm new to this list and I hope this isn't too far from the normal content
> of the list. I've been racing for a couple of years (WERA and CCS)
> and I'm changing steeds, I destroyed my other one.
> I am interested in building a CR500 motored '91 TZ (slightly narrower
> frame than the parallel twin 250). I'm wondering if anyone here has any
> info on building something like this. I understand the person I want to
> talk to, Dr. Rob Tuluie, is on this list, but of course any help would be great
> Also who would be a good (willing) contact for performance/roadrace
> tuning a CR500 motor (again Dr. Rob). I have access to an '87 and a
> '92 motor and I'm trying to decide which one to buy. I already have the
> TZ. I'm going to want a custom pipe made and a bunch of other things.
>
> Thanks
> Laszlo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:51:07 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
I don't mind keeping records in english and metric. I also like the idea
of decimal pounds, but I'll probably keep every thing listed in an Excel
spreadsheet and can create an automatic conversion that can convert the
lb./oz. to Kg.
I just need the data... what are you guys going to weigh?
Julian Farnam
p.s. already weighed a few items at the post office... great idea!
just wish they had a 100lb. scale so I could get an accurate weight on
my 604 Rotax. Ian, I think your number might be a little hi(?) I'm
getting something like 42Kg (even a little less for my 504) for the bare
engine.
Dick Brewster wrote:
>
> Ed Biafore wrote:
> ....
> > What do you think of having both English and metric weights on the list. I
> > think it would help make it easier to compare weights if everything was the
> > same and if both were listed everybody could use their own native system. I
> > know that Kg's don't mean much to me and converting to pounds is a pain in
> > the butt. It would probably be easier to have the data posted as both and
> > just compiling it rather than having to convert it all yourself. What do you
> > think?
> >
> > > p.s. I like the idea of using post office scales in the portion of the
> > > lobby that is open at night. Mine has a 70 pounder...
>
> Julian or whoever is doing the work will have a lot of work to
> do, so unless they are using a spreadsheet where the conversion
> is automatic, I would recommend using decimal pounds. i.e 7.53
> lb instead of 7 lb 8.5 ounces.
>
> I don't personally care if we use English units or the metric
> system, but it seems like the majority of the people on the list
> are in the US, so English makes sense. The reason for decimal
> pounds as opposed to lbs and ounces is that it's a lot simpler to
> convert between English and Metric if you don't have to mess with
> ounces. It's also easier to do math on the weights if you don't
> have to screw with ounces.
>
> Dick
>
> > I get a kick outta that idea too!! I can just see people walking in to the
> > post office at night with they're eyes bulging while I'm trying to weigh a
> > frame or engine.
> >
> > Later,
> > Ed
> > '91 883/1200 Sporty
> > Glendale, AZ
> > http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:16:32 -0800
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
Julian wrote:
>
> I don't mind keeping records in english and metric. I also like the idea
> of decimal pounds, but I'll probably keep every thing listed in an Excel
> spreadsheet and can create an automatic conversion that can convert the
> lb./oz. to Kg.
>
> I just need the data... what are you guys going to weigh?
>
> Julian Farnam
Julian,
You can take some miscellaneous 30 to 50 lb lumps to the post
orifice, weigh them and mark the weights on them. Then you can
use those lumps to make a calibration chart for your bathroom
scale. At least it works for cheap guys like me.
If you use a bathroom scale, it's also worthwhile to cut a piece
of 3/4 inch plywood to cover the scale platform. I found out that
a concentrated load in the middle of the platform gives different
results than a distributed load. Chep scales are also sensitive
to what they are sitting on. Anything that causes the lightweight
scale structure to distort effects readings.
I also found out that my digital bathroom scale will give the
same reading each time unless you vary the weight by over a
couple of percent or wait awhile. It looks like the
microprocessor holds the first weight and spits it back at you if
you weigh something else that is about the same weight within a
minute or so. It sure gives the appearance of constancy when you
weigh yourself several times in a row. I was amazed at the
repeatability of my el- cheapo bathroom scales until I picked up
something that weighed about 5 lb, got back on the scale and it
gave me the same reading.
Dick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:48:49 -0600
From: "Tom Melesky"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis CR/TZ Project
You may want to try Jay Wright (?) at BareBones for counsel and
guidance on your project bike. Jay builds BB500's, your choice of
single, Rotax, Ascot, etc., motor placed carefully in a TZ250 frame. A
beautiful piece, several are being raced in AHRMA.
Tom Melesky
- -----Original Message-----
From: Laszlo Szerenyi
To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
Date: Friday, December 04, 1998 11:52 AM
Subject: MC-Chassis CR/TZ Project
>I'm new to this list and I hope this isn't too far from the normal
content
>of the list. I've been racing for a couple of years (WERA and CCS)
>and I'm changing steeds, I destroyed my other one.
>I am interested in building a CR500 motored '91 TZ (slightly narrower
>frame than the parallel twin 250). I'm wondering if anyone here has
any
>info on building something like this. I understand the person I want
to
>talk to, Dr. Rob Tuluie, is on this list, but of course any help
would be great
>Also who would be a good (willing) contact for performance/roadrace
>tuning a CR500 motor (again Dr. Rob). I have access to an '87 and a
>'92 motor and I'm trying to decide which one to buy. I already have
the
>TZ. I'm going to want a custom pipe made and a bunch of other
things.
>
>Thanks
>Laszlo
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:20:40 EST
From: Mfstj@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Big singles&others
Hi,
With people discussing big singles I thought I'd let you know I've just
about finished a dry build of my 650 (Honda NX/ Dominator)Harris all thats
left to do now is make up and plumb in an oil tank, measure up for an ofset
front sprocket and paint etc. I'll see if Ican get some pictures scaned in and
maybe Michael will put them on his page? On the subject of other engines Pip
Higham a friend who runs The Village Bike Shop in Worsley(Specialists in
tunning GSX\GSXR motors not push bikes as the name might suggest) has not long
finished building a six cylinder GSX this has to be one of the most amazing
motors I,ve ever seen and it looks for all the world as if Suzuki built it
themselves. It was featured in Streetfighters magazine a few months ago though
I haven't got the issue handy so i,m not sure which one. Over X-mas I'm going
home so I'll see if i can get some pictures of this too if people are
interested.
Yours
Matthew Davies
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:10:40 -0800
From: Bob
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Double single
Ian Drysdale wrote:
> Well I know a bit about this subject ( with the V8 ) - but I
> also have a friend building a double XR 600 and another
> 'email buddy' of the female variety who is building a 100cc
> boxer using Honda 50 bits - believe it or not.
>
Any picture available of these, Ian?
What angle did they use?
> A roller bottom end is simpler as you only need a pin twice
> as long and press it all up - you need twice the oil pump
> capacity but the gearbox will not be a problem as the torque
> peaks are no higher - just twice as many.
>
Thanks for the tip on the oil pump, I was thinking maybe 25% bigger.
Another thought I had is to use a rod setup like radial engines use,
master rod and whatever the other ones are called. Cheers Bob
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:59:16 -0600
From: "Thomas Alberti"
Subject: MC-Chassis Streetfighters Magazine
> themselves. It was featured in Streetfighters magazine a few months ago
though
Is this a British rag? Do you have any subscription info?
Thomas
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:25:14 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
> p.s. already weighed a few items at the post office... great idea!
> just wish they had a 100lb. scale so I could get an accurate weight on
> my 604 Rotax. Ian, I think your number might be a little hi(?) I'm
> getting something like 42Kg (even a little less for my 504) for the bare
> engine.
Hello Julian,
I think when I weighed my Rotax single it was about 95#, so your
result sounds in the balllpark.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:18:56 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
OK, since the engine weights seem to be somewhat separate, I will kick in
the ones that I have recorded. This won't specifically fit on the
worksheet, because they are just for the engines and don't include any
additional parts weights. These were collected over a number of years and
from various sources including several that I weighed myself. all weights
in lbs.
Brand Engine Year Weight Details
Rotax....ATK560..early....91
Honda...CR250....'87......52.5.........w/k-start/oil
Honda...CR250...............45...........w/radiators/no carb late 80's
Honda...XL250.....-'78.....79.4........w/carb early engine
Honda...XL250....'79-82...72
Honda...XR250.....'85......70
Honda...XR200.....'80s.....53
Honda...SL125......'71......50.........w/carb
Honda...XL350....'73-78...95.........w/carb
Honda...XR500......'79....85.25.......w/carb..87lb(Mikuni38mm)
Honda...Hawk650..'89....135...........w/o carbs
Husaberg.500.......early...57
KTM.....600...........'89.....73
Rotax-Aprilla 5-v.............106
Kaw......KLX250...'80?....74.5........w/carb
Yam......TT600.....'86......95
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
>I don't mind keeping records in english and metric. I also like the idea
>of decimal pounds, but I'll probably keep every thing listed in an Excel
>spreadsheet and can create an automatic conversion that can convert the
>lb./oz. to Kg.
>
>I just need the data... what are you guys going to weigh?
>
>Julian Farnam
>
>p.s. already weighed a few items at the post office... great idea!
>just wish they had a 100lb. scale so I could get an accurate weight on
>my 604 Rotax. Ian, I think your number might be a little hi(?) I'm
>getting something like 42Kg (even a little less for my 504) for the bare
>engine.
>> ....
>> > What do you think of having both English and metric weights on the
list. I
>> > think it would help make it easier to compare weights if everything was
the
>> > same and if both were listed everybody could use their own native
system. I
>> > know that Kg's don't mean much to me and converting to pounds is a pain
in
>> > the butt. It would probably be easier to have the data posted as both
and
>> > just compiling it rather than having to convert it all yourself. What
do you
>> > think?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:59:42 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis Linto for sale
Here's a deal for the right person who happens to have a deeper
pocket than I do. Wish I could buy it (sob).
BTW, Dane is Dane Kurth, former GP sidecar passenger for her husband
Rudi (pictures of cool CAT stuff by Rudi on the website).
Michael
- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 01:51:47 +0100
From: Dane
Organization: Cat Cheetah Carbon Bikes
To: mmoore@sirius.com
Subject: Linto 500, anyone ?
Hi Michael,
Remember the name Kurt Schweizer, who also used to ride a CAT sidecar?
Well he has the following for sale:
LINTO Racing solo machine, "500 Grand Prix", 1969, 500cc, Ex Keith
Turner (New Zealand). All original condition, bodywork and mechanics
in absolutely perfect condition, competed this year in a Swiss Hill
Climb and one Swiss Vintage race. Currently in Switzerland. Price
78,000 Swiss Francs plus freight. Freight can be arranged. Photos on
request
Michael - can you spread the word, or do you know where I can put an
advert for it ? Cheers ! Dane
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #846
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Saturday, December 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 847
1. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Old age.
2. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis 100 cc Boxer
3. GD Subj: Re: MC-Chassis 100 cc Boxer
4. "dcmserv" Subj: MC-Chassis Vintage Sidecars
5. "Joe Allan" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
6. Douglas Lofgren Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
7. Dick Brewster Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
8. "dcmserv" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
9. Mfstj@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis re: Streetfighters Magazine
10. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
11. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
12. flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx) Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Dick and Yam XS650
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 18:57:01 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Old age.
> p.s. already weighed a few items at the post office... great idea!
> just wish they had a 100lb. scale so I could get an accurate weight on
>
> my 604 Rotax. Ian, I think your number might be a little hi(?) I'm
> getting something like 42Kg (even a little less for my 504) for the
> bare
> engine.
OK - old age playing tricks with my mind - as I said - I have
all the weights stored somewhere I knew I couldn't lose them.
I'm pretty sure the rest were right but Michael doesn't concur
with my Laverda 750 weight. The CX weights are right - I am
SURE of them. Just wait till I find that file.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 19:30:56 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis 100 cc Boxer
> > 'email buddy' of the female variety who is building a 100cc
> > boxer using Honda 50 bits - believe it or not.
> >
> Any picture available of these, Ian?
> What angle did they use?
No - it is still under construction. Megan is a very determined
young lady - she has no engineering background but has purchased
a lathe and set it up in the kitchen of her shared house. She has
played around with some basic sand casting.
We tried to discourage her on such an ambitious first project but
managed only to upset her - turns out she is a farm girl form
northern Australian ( Queensland ) - where they think nothing of
whipping up a cane harvester before lunchtime.
Angle is 180 deg - mini BMW.
> Thanks for the tip on the oil pump, I was thinking maybe 25% bigger.
> Another thought I had is to use a rod setup like radial engines use,
> master rod and whatever the other ones are called. Cheers Bob
Slave. As in master and slave - the topic of other quite a few
other lists I believe.
Umm - good luck. Side by side is much simpler - a S&M setup
needs to be almost as wide as 2 rods SBS anyway. The width of the
lower end of the rod needs the same as the little end ( the forces are
the same ) and then you will need the same amount of material on the
rod ( in 2 pieces ) and some method of holding it there ( more width ).
For the ultimate in beauty - have a look at a Merlin S&M rod pair.
I've heard them called 'knife & fork' but they are actually S&M -
the master runs on the crank and the slave rod oscillates on the master
on the crank pin centreline - not outside it like a radial.
I don't want to even think about the maths in balancing a twin set up
like a radial with the offset lower pin on the slave. A 9 cyl. radial
would be better as at least there are 8 cylinders with offset lower
pivot points. It would even out to a certain degree.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 07:40:57 -0800
From: GD
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis 100 cc Boxer
This is some of the ambition that we could all learn from. If you
put your mind to it there isn't any thing you can't do!
GD
We tried to discourage her on such an ambitious first project but
managed only to upset her - turns out she is a farm girl form
northern Australian ( Queensland ) - where they think nothing of
whipping up a cane harvester before lunchtime.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 23:14:36 -0500
From: "dcmserv"
Subject: MC-Chassis Vintage Sidecars
Hi,
I'm new to this list and it looks like something I should have joined some
time ago.
We are currently campaining a vintage sidecar in USCRA competition.
The current and soon to be retired rig is one that we built and is powered
by a H-D K-Model engine. We've been running it for 4 years and had some
great fun, but it is getting too hard to keep up with the BMW's.
We are now building some rigs for other club members as well as a new rig
for ourselves. The chassis' we are building can be configured left or right
hand chair, and will accomodate most any chain drive engine. The outfits
that we are building are to be powered by: 1) H-D XR750 (ours), 1) H-D
KR750,
1) CB450/560, 1) XS-1 650.
The design is based partially on H-D parts such as wheels and brakes due to
thier ready availability from flea markets and aftermarket suppliers
There are two more chassis in process that are unsold if anyone is
interrested.
They are not yet dedicated left/right and can be setup for the engine of
your choice.
Thanks for listening
DG
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:14:06 -0800
From: "Joe Allan"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
Julian wrote:
>
> I don't mind keeping records in english and metric. I also like the idea
> of decimal pounds, but I'll probably keep every thing listed in an Excel
> spreadsheet and can create an automatic conversion that can convert the
> lb./oz. to Kg.
>
> I just need the data... what are you guys going to weigh?
>
> Julian Farnam
>
>Julian and fellow listers;
I'm building an XS650 Yam based dirt dragger/hillclimber and will be
trying to put that hefty old motor on a diet this winter.
I have had thoughts of making non stressed parts like valve adjustment
covers and points covers out of plastic or fiberglass...or carbon
fiber:-) Realisticly I think that a mold of some sort and a thin layer of
plastic/epoxy etc would work, any help or hints from fellow listers would
be most welcome on that subject:-)
I'll weigh and record the process as I go and post the results if
anyone thinks it will be usefull.
Joe Allan
Vancouver Island
Canada
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 10:58:54 -0800
From: Douglas Lofgren
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
David Weinshenker wrote:
> Has anyone built a bike with a conspicuously elevated swingarm
> pivot, so that the wheel has a definite rearward travel as it rises?
>
> It might make the suspension compress more easily as the wheel
> rolls up the face of a bump, while giving a little extra
> resistance to compression from cornering-forces.
Suspension compliance to bumps, possibly should be the last
consideration.
One problem to high swingarm pivots is chain slack.
The Bimota BMW single chain, drags on the swing-arm and, almost, on
the ground at rest, unladen.
The second point is the anti-squat qualities, under power.
The afore-mentioned Bimota has a high position, Ducatis typically
have a pretty high SA pivot, and lots of anti-squat.
As difficult as this can make chassis set-up, why would a higher
position be advantageous?
These considerations should outweigh the suspension compliance
question IMOHO.
Paralellogram rear suspensions might deal with this consideration
differently.
- --
Doug Lofgren
http://www.wavefront.com/~moperfserv
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 09:11:06 -0800
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
Joe Allan wrote:
>
> Julian wrote:
> >
> > I don't mind keeping records in english and metric. I also like the idea
> > of decimal pounds, but I'll probably keep every thing listed in an Excel
> > spreadsheet and can create an automatic conversion that can convert the
> > lb./oz. to Kg.
> >
> > I just need the data... what are you guys going to weigh?
> >
> > Julian Farnam
> >
> >Julian and fellow listers;
>
> I'm building an XS650 Yam based dirt dragger/hillclimber and will be
> trying to put that hefty old motor on a diet this winter.
> I have had thoughts of making non stressed parts like valve adjustment
> covers and points covers out of plastic or fiberglass...or carbon
> fiber:-) Realisticly I think that a mold of some sort and a thin layer of
> plastic/epoxy etc would work, any help or hints from fellow listers would
> be most welcome on that subject:-)
> I'll weigh and record the process as I go and post the results if
> anyone thinks it will be usefull.
> Joe Allan
> Vancouver Island
> Canada
There seems to be a lot of interest in those old beasts. I'm very
slowly renovating/lightening/improving an XS650 for twisty road
use. I'm tracking weights as I have parts off and
modify/eliminate/replace them and will submit a form when I get
enough stuff weighed to make it worthwhile.
Dick
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 01:04:07 -0500
From: "dcmserv"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
GMD Computrack seems to advocate a rather high s/a pivot, also as close to
the sprocket as possible. This apparently has a pronounced effect on rear
wheel hook-up on corner exit, as well as some effect on stability in
straight-line acceleration.
Just my observations, not necessarily my opinions.
DG
>David Weinshenker wrote:
>
>> Has anyone built a bike with a conspicuously elevated swingarm
>> pivot, so that the wheel has a definite rearward travel as it rises?
>>
> Paralellogram rear suspensions might deal with this consideration
>differently.
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:27:18 EST
From: Mfstj@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis re: Streetfighters Magazine
>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:59:16 -0600From: "Thomas Alberti"
>Is this a British rag? Do you have any subscription info?Thomas
This is indeed a U.K rag, almost soft porn however it has the most interesting
specials of any of the british bike mags especialy now that AWOL has gone
bust.
U.S Subs $60 for12 issues from motorsport,550 Honey Locust
Rd,Jonesburg,MO63351-9600 (314 488 3113)
Another interesting little mag is Framed this is the club magazine of the
Steeet Specials Owners Club ( Incorperates Harris,Rickman and featherbed
owners clubs) Contact Dominic Dawson Tel:01705 501 321 for details of
membership(you will have to work out what to add to the front of this number
if you live outside the U.K for yourselves)
Yours
Matthew Davies
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 10:37:49 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
Douglas Lofgren wrote:
> David Weinshenker wrote:
> > Has anyone built a bike with a conspicuously elevated swingarm
> > pivot, so that the wheel has a definite rearward travel as it rises?
> > It might make the suspension compress more easily as the wheel
> > rolls up the face of a bump, while giving a little extra
> > resistance to compression from cornering-forces.
>
> Suspension compliance to bumps, possibly should be the last
> consideration.
> One problem to high swingarm pivots is chain slack.
> The Bimota BMW single chain, drags on the swing-arm and, almost, on
> the ground at rest, unladen.
> The second point is the anti-squat qualities, under power.
My thought involved using a remote jackshaft or something, so that the
front sprocket of the final drive would be as elevated as the swingarm
pivot, and possibly even concentric with it. As I mentioned in my
previous message, it wouldn't be a convenient layout for a conventional
"unit" engine, with the final drive's front sprocket on a gearbox
built onto the rear of the engine. However, I could see the mechanical
layout posssibilities for a variable-ratio belt drive from a snowmobile
(or similar) engine that didn't have a built-on gearbox.
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 10:53:54 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel Motion
My original question involved the wheel movement while holding the
swing arm pro/anti dive characteristics constant. I don't know that
you can really figure out the first with out factoring out the
other.
Least it confuses me even more if I don't.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:50:11 -0500
From: flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx)
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Dick and Yam XS650
Hello
There certainly is a lot of interest in XS650's. A friend is
AMA national #3 in hillclimb (750cc Class). I understand they're popular
in vintage sidecar racing. I can attest they're competitive in vintage
flattrack, the #2 rider in New England
Vintage Amateur class races one. I hope to acquire an XS650 or a Yam
SR/TT/XT 500cc or 550cc in the near future.
Anyone knowing of any available in the northeast USA, at a reasonable
price, please contact me directly.
Thanks, Tony Manx
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #847
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Sunday, December 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 848
1. Henry Cutler Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
2. flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx) Subj: MC-Chassis S/A pivot
3. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - plastic parts
4. "Joe Allan" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
5. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - rim blanks
6. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis tilting trike site
7. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis MotoBi frame
8. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - rims, clarification
9. "Phil Dorman" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
10. "Phil Dorman" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Hi-tech
11. "Phil Dorman" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis billy carts!!
12. "Phil Dorman" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis 100 cc Boxer
13. "Phil Dorman" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis S/A pivot
14. "Phil Dorman" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis tilting trike site
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 11:05:40 -0800
From: Henry Cutler
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
At 12:14 AM 12/5/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I have had thoughts of making non stressed parts like valve adjustment
>covers and points covers out of plastic or fiberglass...or carbon
>fiber:-) Realisticly I think that a mold of some sort and a thin layer of
>plastic/epoxy etc would work, any help or hints from fellow listers would
>be most welcome on that subject:-)...
Joe,
Here's two good sources of info and supplies for working in fiber reinforced
plastics (fiberglass, carbon, kevlar...). I've no connection to either of
these firms:
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
Fullerton, CA, USA
800.824.1930
714.870.7315
www.aircraft-spruce.com
For those not familiar, aircraft-spruce is a supplier to small aircraft
constructors and thus a source of many things of relevant to motorcycle
builders. They have composite materials and tools, cro-mo and aluminum
tubing in many sizes and shapes (including airfoils), hardware and
EVERYTHING else you'd need to build a plane. Get the catalog - I guarantee
you'll find something of interest in there
Gougeon Brothers Inc (West System)
Bay City, MI, USA
517.684.7286
Supplier of resins, fibers and related tools. Also has a nice
newsletter/magazine called "Epoxyworks" with articles on projects,
techniques etc.. Oriented toward marine applications, but good reading anyway.
Henry
BMW R65... ready for the next round of mods
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 14:13:15 -0500
From: flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx)
Subject: MC-Chassis S/A pivot
Hello all,
Dave mentioned using a jackshaft to place the C/S
sprocket close to the S/A pivot. Has anyone seen something such as this
tried? ;
Use a jackshaft for the S/A pivot, mount 2 sprockets on the same
end, run a chain from the CS sprock to one of the sprockets on the SA
shaft, run another chain from the second sprocket on the jackshaft to the
rear wheel sprocket.
I see 2 advantages to this arrangement;
1) the tension of the final drive chain will not change with
the travel of the wheel through it's arc.
2)You can do some unusual gearing by using 2 different size
sprockets on the jackshaft.
Questions or comments anyone? Tony Manx
I can be reached directly at FLAT-TRACK@Juno.com
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 13:25:51 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - plastic parts
Hi Joe,
Sounds like an interesting project. Some of the most creative
homebuilts I have seen are hillclimbers.
For your plastic parts fabrication, you might call a company here in the
states that manufactures various grades of casting urethanes for making
both the molds and finished parts: Smooth-On 800-762-0744
www.smooth-on.com They can send samples and the name of distibutors in
your area. I plan to use one of their products to make hard rubber
plugs for the cush-drive in my rear wheels. I'll let everyone know if
it works well.
Julian Farnam
> >
> >Julian and fellow listers;
>
> I'm building an XS650 Yam based dirt dragger/hillclimber and will be
> trying to put that hefty old motor on a diet this winter.
> I have had thoughts of making non stressed parts like valve adjustment
> covers and points covers out of plastic or fiberglass...or carbon
> fiber:-) Realisticly I think that a mold of some sort and a thin layer of
> plastic/epoxy etc would work, any help or hints from fellow listers would
> be most welcome on that subject:-)
> I'll weigh and record the process as I go and post the results if
> anyone thinks it will be usefull.
> Joe Allan
> Vancouver Island
> Canada
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 16:12:03 -0800
From: "Joe Allan"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
Henry Cutler wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Here's two good sources of info and supplies for working in fiber reinforced
> plastics (fiberglass, carbon, kevlar...). I've no connection to either of
> these firms:
>
> Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
> Fullerton, CA, USA
> 800.824.1930
> 714.870.7315
> http://www.aircraft-spruce.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 17:39:30 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - rim blanks
Would anyone like a set of spun aluminum rim blanks?
I plan to purchase rim blanks in January or February and would like to
split the order with any interested persons. There is a minimum
quantity that is more than my immediate needs. These rims are very good
quality spinnings and polished to a nice finish. They are a flange
style (you bolt in your own centers) I plan to order 3.5 x 17 and 5.5 x
17 sizes.
please contact me directly more details,
Julian Farnam
andbike@pacbell.net
925-606-0311
fax 925-606-0312
p.s. I have some 4.25 x 17 blanks that could be available too (if I get
the 5.5s to replace them), although already machined to fit my cast
centers.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 20:59:51 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis tilting trike site
Here's a Brazilian site for leaning/tilting trike/quad vehicles
http://www.e-net.com.br/acbsan
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 21:30:12 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis MotoBi frame
Along with the engines Bob Eldridge sent me a CAD plot of a MotoBi
racing frame. I think Bob is the designer, though I suspect that
someone else did all the drawing work. I've scanned most of it (it
was just a bit big for my scanner) and put it in the new additions
section of the first graphics page.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:52:44 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - rims, clarification
Several people have already asked about the rims I mentioned in a
previous post. I may not have made it clear that I'm talking about just
the outer rims only, for modular, bolt together, types of wheels. Not
complete wheels. These are similar to the rim on a spoke wheel, but
with a mounting flange and no holes. Price would be around $300 (US)
for a pair.
Contact me directly for any other questions.
Sorry for any confusion,
Julian Farnam
andbike@pacbell.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:37:46 +1100
From: "Phil Dorman"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engine design
>>Good on yer Bob.
>>Does anyone remember the Big Single discussion on the FF list a couple of
>>years ago ?
>>Julian, Michael ?
>>Anyarchive of this ?
>
>I'm sure I've got it all, but I'm not sure I want to go through it again
>:) I like big singles as much as the next person, but this seemed to
>degenerate into a competition to see who could imagine the biggest!
>Personally, once they get much over 450cc, I'd rather go for a V Twin.
Yep, that's what it ended up as I suppose.
I just thought that as it covered most of the arguments it might save going
over it all again if Bob could just read the archive.
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:50:00 +1100
From: "Phil Dorman"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Hi-tech
>Having lived in a few countries I feel qualified to answer this.
>A "billy cart" is Australian for the English "soapbox".
>It can't be made any clearer than that.
>Tony Foale.
That's interesting because in Aus a Soapbox is something one stands on to
expound upon matters political or otherwise of little interest to others.
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 20:21:12 +1100
From: "Phil Dorman"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis billy carts!!
dave w said
>Is there a buyers' market in aviation surplus down there
>these days? I wouldn't have expected such wheels to be easy
>or cheap to obtain...
>
Maybe it has something to do with the Kiwi being a flightless bird !
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:01:50 +1100
From: "Phil Dorman"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis 100 cc Boxer
Ian said,
>Umm - good luck. Side by side is much simpler - a S&M setup
>needs to be almost as wide as 2 rods SBS anyway. The width of the
>lower end of the rod needs the same as the little end ( the forces are
>the same ) and then you will need the same amount of material on the
>rod ( in 2 pieces ) and some method of holding it there ( more width ).
I agree SBS is easier and more KISS able.
It however usually means the cylinders are offset to keep the bores in line
with the big end bearing centrelines.
As this can cause other logistical mechanical problems (apart from slight
rocking couple) don't forget to consider the Howard layout of offset rod
ends which allows the cylinder centres to be in line but with SBS bigends.
Very KISS able the only drawback being slight bending loads on the conrods.
>For the ultimate in beauty - have a look at a Merlin S&M rod pair.
>I've heard them called 'knife & fork' but they are actually S&M -
>the master runs on the crank and the slave rod oscillates on the master
>on the crank pin centreline - not outside it like a radial.
Ian I have heard of this but not sure what the benefit is over SBS ?
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:21:28 +1100
From: "Phil Dorman"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis S/A pivot
From: Tony Manx
>
> Dave mentioned using a jackshaft to place the C/S
>sprocket close to the S/A pivot. Has anyone seen something such as this
>tried? ;
Tony,
I have been planning to do this on my Suzuki 750 (waterbottle) sand drag
bike.
The rear tyre is 12" wide and obviously it needs the chain run widened out
to clear this.
Initially I was going to make a splined extension for the gearbox output
shaft and an outrigger bearing for the end of it.
This outrigger would need to be very solid as it takes all the linea drive
created by the low gearing.
What I am now contemplating is that I have to make a wide swingarm pivot
anyway so why not run a shaft through the hollow pivot with a drive sprocket
on the outer end to run to the back wheel sprocket and another sprocket just
behind the original one on the gearbox.
+ the outrigger is as strong as the swingarm pivot.
+ great gearing possibilities without overly large rear sprockets.
- - some transmission loss through 2 chains and sprockets but at least chains
are quite efficient.
Of course the bike may end up with a rigid rear end to save weight but the
same can be applied.
Maybe ?
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 22:15:18 +1100
From: "Phil Dorman"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis tilting trike site
From: Michael Moore
>Here's a Brazilian site for leaning/tilting trike/quad vehicles
Very interesting.
Many musings have passed along such lines but considering computerised and
attitude sensing control over the leanings of the vehicle.
I'm not clear on what actually governs how much or when this one leans which
way if at all. ?
Is the "Subsystem for restriction of axial articulations" simply controlled
by the operator via a lever ?
Phil
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #848
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Monday, December 7 1998 Volume 01 : Number 849
1. Dick Brewster Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Hi-tech
2. "dcmserv" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis S/A pivot
3. geoff@ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. ) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis More photos
4. Laszlo Szerenyi Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
5. ckenfield@isd.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis CR/TZ Project
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 10:14:57 -0800
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Hi-tech
Phil Dorman wrote:
>
> >Having lived in a few countries I feel qualified to answer this.
> >A "billy cart" is Australian for the English "soapbox".
> >It can't be made any clearer than that.
> >Tony Foale.
>
> That's interesting because in Aus a Soapbox is something one stands on to
> expound upon matters political or otherwise of little interest to others.
> Phil
That sounds like our Congress.
Dick
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 01:47:29 -0500
From: "dcmserv"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis S/A pivot
Tony,
I've built jack shaft arangements to move the chain line to clear car size
tires on drag bikes, but those were rigid rear-ends. I've never built one
that moved concentric to the pivot, and I can see considerable difficulty in
designing one that would allow easy gearing changes. Also chain tension on
the short chain is difficult to adjust on the drag bikes with the jackshaft
in a sliding block. It would be even more difficult with a fixed s/a pivot
location. Perjaps you could move the s/a pivot to adjust the chain tension.
I believe Bimoto built a chassis at one point with the s/a pivots external
to the engine and concentric to the countershaft. It was quite complex, and
restricted access to engine components. An easier way to acompolish the same
result without the difficulty of fabrication involved in the Bimoto pivots
would be to use large Heim joints for the pivots. this would allow some
adjustability, as well as tolerance for slight mis-alignments. These Heim
joints are commonly used in race car suspension, and I've seen them used as
s/a pivots on open class hillclimbers too.
Personally, I'm not convinced that any of the theories I've seen or read are
universally valid as far as s/a pivot locations effect on handling go. I do
believe that the effects of s/a pivot location can have an effect on
handling under acceleration, especially with higher power outputs, but the
modern superbikes and GP bikes seem to work pretty well without resorting to
special linkages or other non-traditional construction. I've designed a
non-traditional rear suspension (patent-pending) but the testing results
don't seem to yield sufficient benefit to justify the considerable
difficulty of fabrication.
good luck with your project.
DG
>
>Hello all,
>
> Dave mentioned using a jackshaft to place the C/S
>sprocket close to the S/A pivot. Has anyone seen something such as this
>tried? ;
>
> Use a jackshaft for the S/A pivot, mount 2 sprockets on the same
>end, run a chain from the CS sprock to one of the sprockets on the SA
>shaft, run another chain from the second sprocket on the jackshaft to the
>rear wheel sprocket.
>
> I see 2 advantages to this arrangement;
>
> 1) the tension of the final drive chain will not change with
>the travel of the wheel through it's arc.
>
> 2)You can do some unusual gearing by using 2 different size
>sprockets on the jackshaft.
>
> Questions or comments anyone? Tony Manx
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 20:44:51 GMT
From: geoff@ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. )
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis More photos
I have some more chassis photos that may be of interest to you all
when I get them developed, from our New Zealand national points
meeting this weeken. they include:
A NZ made Macintosh framed Kawasaki Z1 (I think) turbo (170hp at the
wheels..) 1 of 2 made. A bit of a truck around corners, but a rocket
along the straights.
A Macintosh framed TZ350F (1 of 6 - there were 2 there that day)
a Maxton TZ350 (1977)
A homemade Ducati with ali frame by F1 engineering. It was "in
progress, but a buitiful job. It had GSXR750 USD front end and
headstock with a CBR400 swingarm, and an amazingly serpentine exhaust
system.
They also had the BSL500 GP bike there, which I climbed all over, as
well as Aaron Slight's RC45 Superbike. both Very tasty.
There was also another Macintosh Suzuki (GSX1100 based), and a
homemade 125 (John Anderson framed with a Kawasaki 125 motorcrosser
motor in it.)
Geoff
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 08:53:01 -0500
From: Laszlo Szerenyi
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - Weight worksheet
Here are two great sources for composites and info
A Suppliers link page:
http://www.en.com/users/bunnell/kart/kartlink1.htm
Here is a company I have done a lot of business with in making
carbon/kevlar/glass projects I highly recommend them.
http://www.fibreglast.com/
Laszlo
Henry Cutler wrote:
> At 12:14 AM 12/5/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >I have had thoughts of making non stressed parts like valve adjustment
> >covers and points covers out of plastic or fiberglass...or carbon
> >fiber:-) Realisticly I think that a mold of some sort and a thin layer of
> >plastic/epoxy etc would work, any help or hints from fellow listers would
> >be most welcome on that subject:-)...
>
> Joe,
>
> Here's two good sources of info and supplies for working in fiber reinforced
> plastics (fiberglass, carbon, kevlar...). I've no connection to either of
> these firms:
>
> Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
> Fullerton, CA, USA
> 800.824.1930
> 714.870.7315
> www.aircraft-spruce.com
>
> For those not familiar, aircraft-spruce is a supplier to small aircraft
> constructors and thus a source of many things of relevant to motorcycle
> builders. They have composite materials and tools, cro-mo and aluminum
> tubing in many sizes and shapes (including airfoils), hardware and
> EVERYTHING else you'd need to build a plane. Get the catalog - I guarantee
> you'll find something of interest in there
>
> Gougeon Brothers Inc (West System)
> Bay City, MI, USA
> 517.684.7286
>
> Supplier of resins, fibers and related tools. Also has a nice
> newsletter/magazine called "Epoxyworks" with articles on projects,
> techniques etc.. Oriented toward marine applications, but good reading anyway.
>
> Henry
> BMW R65... ready for the next round of mods
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:27:14 -0600
From: ckenfield@isd.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis CR/TZ Project
Laszlo,
I forwarded this to Dr. Rob at his work address. If you don't get a
response let me know and I'll see if he got it or has a better address to
contact him.
- -Craig
>I'm new to this list and I hope this isn't too far from the normal content
>of the list. I've been racing for a couple of years (WERA and CCS)
>and I'm changing steeds, I destroyed my other one.
>I am interested in building a CR500 motored '91 TZ (slightly narrower
>frame than the parallel twin 250). I'm wondering if anyone here has any
>info on building something like this. I understand the person I want to
>talk to, Dr. Rob Tuluie, is on this list, but of course any help would be great
>Also who would be a good (willing) contact for performance/roadrace
>tuning a CR500 motor (again Dr. Rob). I have access to an '87 and a
>'92 motor and I'm trying to decide which one to buy. I already have the
>TZ. I'm going to want a custom pipe made and a bunch of other things.
>
>Thanks
>Laszlo
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #849
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Wednesday, December 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 850
1. "Rick" Subj: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
2. Henry Cutler Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
3. "LTSNIDER" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
4. "LTSNIDER" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
5. Laszlo Szerenyi Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
6. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
7. geoff@ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. ) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
8. Laszlo Szerenyi Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
9. Mark Mason Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
10. "john.mead" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
11. "john.mead" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
12. Gregor Halenda Subj: MC-Chassis Wheel width question
13. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel width question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:16:32 -0800
From: "Rick"
Subject: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
Hi
Anybody have or know were to get a clutch and a front brake master cylinder
with remote reservoirs ? The late model GSXR SRAD or
ZX7,ZX9, ZX11 had them. I'm looking for the complete units with brake/clutch
levers, reservoirs and brackets.
Also looking for a tail light for a GSXR SRAD
Thanks in advance Rick
350HP Turbo GSXR1100 Street bike And Performance Bikes
Links Page, Chat Room and coming soon the on line parts store
Web Site http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/
EL Mirage Land speed Record holder 204.626 MPH
E-mail gsxr1100@ptw.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 07:31:38 -0800
From: Henry Cutler
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
Ducatis, at least from '91 to present have remote reservoirs as well. My
fuzzy memory recalls that they were Magura parts.
- -Henry
Henry Cutler
daedalus@mediacity.com
At 07:16 AM 12/8/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Anybody have or know were to get a clutch and a front brake master cylinder
>with remote reservoirs ? The late model GSXR SRAD or
>ZX7,ZX9, ZX11 had them. I'm looking for the complete units with brake/clutch
>levers, reservoirs and brackets.
>Also looking for a tail light for a GSXR SRAD
>
>Thanks in advance Rick
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:14:54 +0000
From: "LTSNIDER"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
Late-model Ducati 916's and 900SS's use Brembo units (not the 900CR). I've heard of
just using one reservoir for both cylinders. Contact Slater Bros.,
Rt. 1, Box 19, Mica WA 99023.
Phone: 509-924-5131, FAX 509-928-0918
Rick wrote:
Anybody have or know were to get a clutch and a front brake master cylinder
with remote reservoirs ?
LYNN
"Works hard to set low standards and then consistantly
fails to achieve them."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:00:01 +0000
From: "LTSNIDER"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
Late-model Ducati 916's and 900SS's use Brembo units (not the 900CR). I've heard of
just using one reservoir for both cylinders. Contact Slater Bros.,
Rt. 1, Box 19, Mica WA 99023.
Phone: 509-924-5131, FAX 509-928-0918
Rick wrote:
Anybody have or know were to get a clutch and a front brake master cylinder
with remote reservoirs ?
LYNN
"Works hard to set low standards and then consistantly
fails to achieve them."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 14:57:03 -0500
From: Laszlo Szerenyi
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
Marietta Motorsports has some really nice Nissin units (better than
stock and about the same price). I bought a set for a race bike
and was very happy. You can see them at:
http://www.marmo.com/
But I'm not sure if you can view them online but give them a call
at 1-888-faslap
Laszlo
LTSNIDER wrote:
> Late-model Ducati 916's and 900SS's use Brembo units (not the 900CR). I've heard of
> just using one reservoir for both cylinders. Contact Slater Bros.,
> Rt. 1, Box 19, Mica WA 99023.
> Phone: 509-924-5131, FAX 509-928-0918
>
> Rick wrote:
>
> Anybody have or know were to get a clutch and a front brake master cylinder
> with remote reservoirs ?
>
> LYNN
> "Works hard to set low standards and then consistantly
> fails to achieve them."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:05:46 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
Laszlo said "http://www.marmo.com/
But I'm not sure if you can view them online but give them a call
at 1-888-faslap"
Is it actually 1-888-FASTLAP? (Not enough characters in FASLAP.)
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:19:08 GMT
From: geoff@ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. )
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:16:32 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi
>
>Anybody have or know were to get a clutch and a front brake master cylinder
>with remote reservoirs ? The late model GSXR SRAD or
>ZX7,ZX9, ZX11 had them. I'm looking for the complete units with brake/clutch
>levers, reservoirs and brackets.
>Also looking for a tail light for a GSXR SRAD
M&P accessories (www.mandp.com) in the UK sell them new, but I can't
find the price.Around $US200 ish IIRC
Geoff
- --
Radar detector FAQ, Forte Agent automation FAQ, bathroom fan FAQ
and THE WORLDS BEST CHRISTMAS PUDDING RECIPE
are at http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/
REMOVE "DELETEME" SPAMBLOCKER FROM ADDRESS TO REPLYTO USENET POSTINGS
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:46:09 -0500
From: Laszlo Szerenyi
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
Sorry I fat fingered it.
Laz
jmark.vanscoter@amd.com wrote:
> Laszlo said "http://www.marmo.com/
> But I'm not sure if you can view them online but give them a call
> at 1-888-faslap"
>
> Is it actually 1-888-FASTLAP? (Not enough characters in FASLAP.)
>
> Mark
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:25:06 -0500
From: Mark Mason
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
> Anybody have or know were to get a clutch and a front brake master
> cylinder with remote reservoirs ?
I got a Nissin brake remote reservoir master cylinder recently from a
local shop, Eastern Cycle, in Beverly, Ma (978-922-3707 - they ship).
They found it in the Parts Unlimited catalog listed as a Shindy, it
didn't say Nissin. The shop is a Ducati dealership, they found it for
me as a cheaper alternative to the Brembo stuff. I won't quote the
price since I think they cut me a deal, but we were all surprised it
wasn't more expensive (I had been expecting for fork over for a
Brembo). The folks at the shop were impressed with the quality for
the price. It has an adjustable pivot and a brake light switch, comes
with all needed parts, and was listed as an OEM part for a bunch of
bikes. I used it for vertical mount (joystick style) and it works
well, although it does need to be horizontal for bleeding.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:59:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "john.mead"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
Henry,
They are made by Brembo.
- ----------
> Ducatis, at least from '91 to present have remote reservoirs as well. My
> fuzzy memory recalls that they were Magura parts.
>
> -Henry
>
> Henry Cutler
> daedalus@mediacity.com
>
> At 07:16 AM 12/8/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >Anybody have or know were to get a clutch and a front brake master cylinder
> >with remote reservoirs ? The late model GSXR SRAD or
> >ZX7,ZX9, ZX11 had them. I'm looking for the complete units with brake/clutch
> >levers, reservoirs and brackets.
> >Also looking for a tail light for a GSXR SRAD
> >
> >Thanks in advance Rick
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:58:29 -0800 (PST)
From: "john.mead"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Master cylinders
Rick,
Lockhart-Phillips has Nissin remote clutch and brake master cylinders listed
in their 1998 catalog. The picture shows them to be gold colored, like
Brembo's.
www.lockhardphillipsusa.com
800.221.7291
714.498.9492 - fax
- ----------
> Hi
>
> Anybody have or know were to get a clutch and a front brake master cylinder
> with remote reservoirs ? The late model GSXR SRAD or
> ZX7,ZX9, ZX11 had them. I'm looking for the complete units with brake/clutch
> levers, reservoirs and brackets.
> Also looking for a tail light for a GSXR SRAD
>
> Thanks in advance Rick
>
> 350HP Turbo GSXR1100 Street bike And Performance Bikes
> Links Page, Chat Room and coming soon the on line parts store
> Web Site http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/
> EL Mirage Land speed Record holder 204.626 MPH
> E-mail gsxr1100@ptw.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:43:35 +1100 (EST)
From: Gregor Halenda
Subject: MC-Chassis Wheel width question
I'm building a BMW bike for track and possible racing use and have a
question for the group.
I'm using a paralever swingarm and stock wheel which is a 2.5"
tubeless spoked design. For asthetic reasons I'm keeping the spoked
rims but it's the width that bothers me. The tire section that BMW
specifies is a 140/80 and it only allows about an 1/8" clearence. I've
spent some time looking at the more modern R1100GS rear wheels which
run a 150 tire on a 4" rim. It's obviously not a whole lot wider but
the profile seems a lot better. I've found a person who could lace one
of these 4" rims onto my hub and here's the rub - literally:
Externally I've got about 1/8 - 3/16" tire to swingarm clearance now
(140 tire). Internally I've got about 1/2 - 3/4" space to the actual
driveshaft.
How much material could be safely removed from this (dry, large
section, aluminum) swingarm with out sacrificing strength?
Could/Should I grind out the nessesary amount and weld a plate in? How
much do you allow for tire growth? Is tire growth only radially? I
haven't put the frame together yet so I don't know how much I could
offset the swingarm in the frame. What other things should I be
considering? Is the profile change worth this trouble?
TIA
Gregor
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:16:09 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel width question
I have thought of these same issues with my K bike and have not come to conclusion. Consider cutting a tubular section from the SA to the limits of the drive shaft. A section of alu. tube could then be welded in to restore the missing material.
Spacers at the hub are used to shim for tire clearance on the various K iterations.
There is some discussion of this in the BMWO news group. Some contend that off set is detrimental to handling, others say it matters not. Frank C. on this list has indicated that this is perhaps not to important, but the folks at compu trak may differ.
There is an interesting section on "tyre" profiles in the book offered by our list host.
Is it worth it. At the track, I think a selection of sticky tires would be more fun.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: Gregor Halenda
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis Wheel width question
> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 8:43 AM
>
>
>
>
> I'm using a paralever swingarm and stock wheel which is a 2.5"
> tubeless spoked design. For asthetic reasons I'm keeping the spoked
> rims but it's the width that bothers me. The tire section that BMW
> specifies is a 140/80 and it only allows about an 1/8" clearence. I've
> spent some time looking at the more modern R1100GS rear wheels which
> run a 150 tire on a 4" rim. It's obviously not a whole lot wider but
> the profile seems a lot better. I've found a person who could lace one
> of these 4" rims onto my hub and here's the rub - literally:
> Externally I've got about 1/8 - 3/16" tire to swingarm clearance now
> (140 tire). Internally I've got about 1/2 - 3/4" space to the actual
> driveshaft.
>
> How much material could be safely removed from this (dry, large
> section, aluminum) swingarm with out sacrificing strength?
> Could/Should I grind out the nessesary amount and weld a plate in? How
> much do you allow for tire growth? Is tire growth only radially? I
> haven't put the frame together yet so I don't know how much I could
> offset the swingarm in the frame. What other things should I be
> considering? Is the profile change worth this trouble?
>
> TIA
>
> Gregor
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #850
******************************
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