Motorcycle Chassis Design Digest #821-830
MC-Chassis-Dgst Sunday, November 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 821
1. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Dynos
2. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
3. Frank Camillieri Subj: Re: MC-Chassis exhaust suckers
4. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
5. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
6. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
7. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
8. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Gas bottles
9. Alan Lapp Subj: MC-Chassis Acetelyene - no MC content
10. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
11. Dick Brewster Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Dynos
12. GD Subj: MC-Chassis Dyno Mufflers
13. geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. ) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
14. GD Subj: Re: MC-Chassis exhaust suckers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 22:25:28 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Dynos
Michael said,
<<
The most important part of the dyno is a well-ventilated sound-proof
room.
>>
Don't forget to silence the exhaust outlet also.
Hath Fath was reported to have built his dyno on to a trailer and to visit
the woods when he needed to work.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:24:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
- -> original dyno for development of the Yam twins as ridden by
- -> Carruthers and others. Vesco was using a GMC supercharger as the load
- -> cell. You now know all that I know on Vesco's setup. The question is
- -> how did he adjust the load?
Probably a restrictor. Blower Drive Service says a 6-71 takes about
55hp to drive on a 455 inch V8 at 1:1.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:50:06 -0500
From: Frank Camillieri
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis exhaust suckers
Mad Man Potter (I don't recall his real first name) sold dynos back in the 60s. We had one at
Boston Cycles and it worked fine. If I remember correctly he used a surplus aircraft generator and
some bars of resistor material in a tank of oil. There was a gauge and some kind of control
circuit with a knob to dial in the load. He provided a chart to convert to HP. The Yamahas we
tested all came very close to the factory ratings.
BTW he was called Mad Man cause he had a V8 Chevy powered Harley that he drag raced.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 18:44:35 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
Dave asked "Is there a TIG equivalent to the "aircraft torch" end of the
size range? I plan to be welding exhaust systems and similar light gage
applications.
Dave-
The small gas-cooled torches are truly feather-light. The smallest water
- -cooled torches are also extremely light. I find either of these are
better for exhaust than a gas torch.
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:03:37 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
jmark.vanscoter@amd.com wrote:
> The small gas-cooled [TIG] torches are truly feather-light. The smallest water
> -cooled torches are also extremely light. I find either of these are
> better for exhaust than a gas torch.
Hmmm. Tell me more! How much would
a complete rig (torch, power
supply, etc.) cost these days, and what
sort of power is required? 120 v / 20 amp? 240 v / 50 amp?
It's definitely something to consider, though I think
cost and power availability may dictate the lightest
oxyacetylene equipment for me at this point: I don't think
the place I'll be working has an electrical service capable
of delivering high-amp 240-volt power...
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:25:14 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
Dave asked "Tell me more! How much would a complete rig (torch, power
supply, etc.) cost these days, and what sort of power is required? 120 v
/ 20 amp? 240 v / 50 amp?
If you are going to ONLY weld steel and stainless-steel (NOT aluminum),
then an ordinary arc welder can be used as a power source. You will need
to "scratch-start" the arc (an acquired skill), but after that
everything is fine. In fact, I bought some equipment from an older
gentleman who for years building and repaired piping in food processing
plants near Chicago, like Kraft, etc. Food processing is very critical
an NO voids are allowed.
When I saw his portable "outfit" I was SHOCKED! There was no hi-tech
square-wave machine. No, he simply had a Miller 225 amp "buzzbox, a TIG
torch, an argon cylinder, and a flow meter. He just plugged into any
220v outlet, and started welding. His welds (needless to say) were
absolutely georgous.
This outfit will plug into a dryer outlet or a stove outlet (but require
far less for most work). The welder is about $175 (?), the TIG torch is
about $125, the flow gauge about $75, and you rent the argon cylinder.
(These prices are off the top of my head, I hope they are about right.)
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:33:24 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
jmark.vanscoter@amd.com wrote:
> If you are going to ONLY weld steel and stainless-steel (NOT aluminum),
> then an ordinary arc welder can be used as a power source. You will need
> to "scratch-start" the arc (an acquired skill), but after that
> everything is fine.
What about aluminum? Is that where DC
welding power and high-frequency
arc starting systems become needed?
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:45:33 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Gas bottles
>I'm no authoritive source but I too also followed this advice blindly.
>Acetylene is not stored in the bottles as a simple compressed gas as per
>oxygen. Rather it is in liquid form in the bottles with some sort of
>wadding to stop surging (I guess). Presumably, this is why we need to let
>things settle a bit.
No authoritative source other than the guy behind the counter at my welding
store, but it was explained to me that the tanks contained a porous
substance similar to coarse drywall - a gypsum product. The idea was that
acetlyene gas was saturated into the acetone under pressure, and the gypsum
acted to stabilize the saturation.
So, who wants to shake up their acetelyne tank and see if the pressure
rises like a soda can?
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:45:33 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: MC-Chassis Acetelyene - no MC content
>Acetylene tends to explode when pressurized, so don't ever get the
>urge to fill anything with acetylene under pressure. I met a guy who
>was injured while making some acetylene based fireworks for July
>4th. I never got the whole story, but I believe he had a plastic
>container (maybe a coke bottle? They're good to something like 300psi)
>filled with acetylene under light pressure and it exploded when he
>tripped and dropped it.
An email penpal (who will remain nameless) and I were trading stories of
childhood mischief. He had the good fortune to grow up on a farm - lots of
space and plenty of instruments of destruction.
Apparently, he and some friends came across an abandoned refrigerator.
They loaded up the following items: said refrigerator, the O/A welding
cart, a generator, several long extention cords, and a shop clip-light onto
a pickup truck and headed for the back 40.
They removed the doors from the 'fridge and laid it face-down, put the open
ends of a welding hose under the 'fridge, and turned on the regulators for
about 5 minutes.
Being rather smart for a buncha dumb kids, they understood that this would
be one hell of an explosion. This is where the balance of the equipment
comes into play. The glass was broken off the lightbulb, re-inserted into
the drop light, and the extension cords were hooked together. They had
over 100 feet of cords.
The generator was dutifully fired up, and the extension cord plugged in,
causing the exposed filament to ignite the gas. It launched the
refrigerator about 40 feet in the air, and left a crater 6 feet deep.
There were no remenants of the drop light or about 20 feet of the extension
cord. The local sherrif arrived, thinking that a home propane tank had
exploded.
My girlfriend just read this tale over my shoulder and naievely asked "Is
that what they wanted to have happen?" Heh... I guess she didn't grow up
around boys!!
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:45:33 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
>Plasma Cutters? Plasma Cutters?
>
>^^ You can buy small 110V units in the $800-$1200 range. The $1200 range
> gets you a pretty good one, up to the 3/8" range. When cutting sheet
> metal with one you can actually "sketch" with moderate speed, much
> faster than with a cutting torch, and a lot less heat involved.
>
>>>
>
>Pinch me, for I dream.
>
>This is the coolest thing I have ever heard of. Can these be obtained used?
>I must see one. Where may they be found?
>
>I'm heading to a machine tool show on November 17th. Am I likely to see these
>in the home-shop price range?
>
>
>Scott A
OK, gang, I spent over an hour wading around in search results from a
variety of search engines, and I'll be durned if I can find an illustration
of the inner workings of a plasma cutter.
I think I shared the idea of making an accessory plasma cutter for my TIG
welder - I just need to figure out how the *@#! thing works before I can
start drawing plans!
I'm curious as to a few points: what material do they use for
annodes/electrodes, and in what manner is the air directed through the
arc, i.e. crossing at right angles or running parallel?
Does anyone know of a resource - preferrably on the web - for some exploded
views, or at least a good written representation of the process? I'd be
grateful, and will gladly share any ideas with the list if there is
interest.
FWIW - I can't find any reference to a home-sized plasma cutter that will
cut 3/8 for less than $1800, and even then, they run on 220v. And, for any
CAD users, I found a company offering a kit - basically a very large
plotter - to automate plasma cutting. The kit retails for about $2000.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:57:52 -0800
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Dynos
Tony Foale wrote:
>
> Michael said,
>
> <<
> The most important part of the dyno is a well-ventilated sound-proof
> room.
> >>
>
> Don't forget to silence the exhaust outlet also.
> Hath Fath was reported to have built his dyno on to a trailer and to visit
> the woods when he needed to work.
>
> Tony Foale.
>
If a man says something in the forest, and there is no woman
there to hear him, is he still wrong?
Dick
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 18:52:25 -0800
From: GD
Subject: MC-Chassis Dyno Mufflers
I have a dyno that I use to tune two strokes and live in a crowded
area. I made two mufflers out of 20 gallon oil drums. I rolled a
insert that is 8 inch diameter out of perforated sheet metal. I took
and made some end caps that are made of flat sheet to hold the inserts
centered in the cans. I packed them with fiber glass to help absorb
the sound. I use two cans together inside the house and then pipe it
outside to two more can/mufflers that are pointed up. They work very
well . The only other thing in the system is a squirrel cage blower to
help move the air. When I get done with a run I can't smell any oil so
it must work well.
See
Ya
GD
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 03:23:59 GMT
From: geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. )
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
On Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:25:14 -0600, you wrote:
>If you are going to ONLY weld steel and stainless-steel (NOT aluminum),
>then an ordinary arc welder can be used as a power source. You will need
>to "scratch-start" the arc (an acquired skill), but after that
>everything is fine. In fact, I bought some equipment from an older
>gentleman who for years building and repaired piping in food processing
>plants near Chicago, like Kraft, etc. Food processing is very critical
>an NO voids are allowed.
You will need a DC welder (or a rectifier) for TIG on MS and
stainless. Ali requires a high frequency unit to helpp clean off the
oxides.
Look for a web page on the DC Cheater for a budget rectifier.
Geoff
- --
Radar detector FAQ, Forte Agent automation FAQ, bathroom fan FAQ
and THE WORLDS BEST CHRISTMAS PUDDING RECIPE
are at http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/
REMOVE "DELETEME" SPAMBLOCKER FROM ADDRESS TO REPLYTO USENET POSTINGS
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:32:16 -0800
From: GD
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis exhaust suckers
That guy was the Michigan mad man. Later in life I saw him when he was running a tractor puller
with two Allison aircraft engines and it had a motorcycle engine for moving the thing around and
starting the engines. I think that his name is E. J. Potter . Pretty interesting guy.
GD
Frank Camillieri wrote:
> Mad Man Potter (I don't recall his real first name) sold dynos back in the 60s. We had one at
> Boston Cycles and it worked fine. If I remember correctly he used a surplus aircraft generator and
> some bars of resistor material in a tank of oil. There was a gauge and some kind of control
> circuit with a knob to dial in the load. He provided a chart to convert to HP. The Yamahas we
> tested all came very close to the factory ratings.
>
> BTW he was called Mad Man cause he had a V8 Chevy powered Harley that he drag raced.
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #821
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Monday, November 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 822
1. Gecos Gigolo Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
2. bsags@isat.com (David Kath) Subj: MC-Chassis Oxy acet welding safety
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
4. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: TIG
5. Gecos Gigolo Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: TIG
6. Michael Andrusiewicz Subj: MC-Chassis Jet Hot update
7. bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Dynos
8. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: MC-Chassis Low Cost TIG welding
9. M Daniel Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Oxy acet welding safety
10. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
11. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Fournier Newsletter
12. Zachary Eyler-Walker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:06:45 -0500
From: Gecos Gigolo
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
> Hmmm. Tell me more! How much would a complete rig (torch, power
> supply, etc.) cost these days, and what sort of power is required? 120
> v / 20 amp? 240 v / 50 amp?
I replaced my huge antique P&H TIG recently with a Lincoln 175 for
around $1100. That machine has pretty much replaced the EconoTig as
the small shop TIG. That price is complete except for tank and
regulator, including starter tungstens, stick holder, welding rods for
stick welding, etc. I also got the shop to throw in an LCD mask with
it.
It is 220V, but the nice thing about the power consumption is that it
all depends on how far you push the pedal down. I've got mine plugged
into a 20 amp circuit, all of the lights go out if I mash it to full
power. Fortunately I only do lightweight work, the only time I've
blown the breaker was when I got frustrated trying to weld a large
piece of aluminium and tried to hurt it.
My old P&H TIG was a 300 amp 100% duty cycle water cooled unit, it was
on a 30 amp circuit, as long as you're doing light welding and don't
mind violating some electrical codes you can run it on a pretty small
circuit. I even run my TIG off of a 30 foot (10 guage) extension cord
so I can move it around the shop.
> It's definitely something to consider, though I think cost and power
> availability may dictate the lightest oxyacetylene equipment for me at
> this point: I don't think the place I'll be working has an electrical
> service capable of delivering high-amp 240-volt power...
For light work like that I'd stick to gas welding, or maybe MIG. I've
never really gotten into gas welding for some reason, but I've seen a
lot of gas welding done by non-expert people that is better than many
TIG welds.
> What about aluminum? Is that where DC welding power and
> high-frequency arc starting systems become needed?
Aluminium is welded with AC, which stick welders can't provide. I
don't really know how to do aluminium well, but I've heard a few
people espousing the advantages of oxy/acetylene over TIG for sheet
metal work because the wider heat distribution of gas welding gives
less heat distortion than TIG.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:48:52 -0800
From: bsags@isat.com (David Kath)
Subject: MC-Chassis Oxy acet welding safety
Gents... A warning, danger. Welding Safety Notice: If you were to adjust
your welding torch to a nice neutral flame, snuff out the fire, and then
slip the torch tip into a kids balloon, filling it nicely, and tieing it
off, you will now have an explosive device. If you were to place the
tied off balloon in a paper sandwich bag with the end twisted shut, and
light the bag, ....
Now, if you were to fill a 3' dia weather balloon with such a gas mix,
with about a 6' fuse, lift it with 2 other weather balloons filled with
helium.... ahh, don't do this down town... even on the 4th of July....
window glass these days being so fragile...
weld safe, dave - NV
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:57:09 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
> people espousing the advantages of oxy/acetylene over TIG for sheet
> metal work because the wider heat distribution of gas welding gives
> less heat distortion than TIG.
No, from what I've gathered from Ron Fournier it is because the area
around the weld is softer and easier to metal finish. I asked him
via his newsletter why I couldn't just TIG it and then torch anneal
the weld, and he said it would distort too much.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, San Francisco CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American distributor of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
Host of 7 m/c email lists (details on the web site)
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:21:40 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: TIG
Mark said;
<<
If you are going to ONLY weld steel and stainless-steel (NOT aluminum),
then an ordinary arc welder can be used as a power source. You will need
to "scratch-start" the arc (an acquired skill),
..............................
...............There was no hi-tech
square-wave machine. No, he simply had a Miller 225 amp "buzzbox, a TIG
torch, an argon cylinder, and a flow meter. He just plugged into any
220v outlet, and started welding.
>>
I can vouch for the fact that this works for MC. related stuff. I had a
simple DC, single phase welder, gas cooled torch and it worked fine. The
scratch start was no hassle, much easier than starting an arc with normal
stick eletrodes. The DC welder was also much better than an AC source for
use with stick electrodes, although I very seldom use this form of welding.
Most of my welding was either gas torch or MIG, I had a high quality 3
phase MIG setup (still got it in fact, although I don't have 3 phase power
anymore) and mainly used the TIG for sheet metal fabrications and stainless
work, and the above setup worked just fine. If most of my work had been
with TIG then of course I'd have gone for a different unit but the only
disadvantage that I noticed with the simple unit was that the tungsten
eltrodes had a shorter life and needed regrinding more frequently due to the
scratch start. This was no big deal for my volume of TIG work.
Incidently, for those that have trouble with MIG, I found that the type of
gas used affects results greatly. The normal plain CO2 I found unhelpful
for MC. work. There are mixtures of argon and CO2 available, in the UK the
common ratios were 5% and 20%. After a lot of testing I found the 20% to
work best for me, on the type of work that I was doing. Also, unlike the
TIG setup, I never had any success with the cheaper single phase MIG units.
Although it was about 22 years ago that I evaluated them, so maybe there are
better ones around now??
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:44:45 -0500
From: Gecos Gigolo
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: TIG
> Incidently, for those that have trouble with MIG, I found that the type of
> gas used affects results greatly. The normal plain CO2 I found unhelpful
> for MC. work. There are mixtures of argon and CO2 available, in the UK the
> common ratios were 5% and 20%. After a lot of testing I found the 20% to
> work best for me, on the type of work that I was doing.
The generic "migshield" gas sold in the US is a CO2/argon mixture, I
think it's around 75% argon to 25% CO2.
> Also, unlike the
> TIG setup, I never had any success with the cheaper single phase MIG units.
> Although it was about 22 years ago that I evaluated them, so maybe there are
> better ones around now??
I suspect they have gotten better in the last 20 years. There is no
problem getting enough current from a 120V line for smaller welds, the
biggest piece of the welder is little more than a transformer, so that
part probably isn't the key piece that makes a smaller welder better.
The big difference I've seen with the cheaper units is the quality of
the wire feed and torch. The cheap MIG I spent some time using seemed
to have a lot of friction in the wire feed line and didn't get too
good a grip on the wire, the result was that the wire movement tended
to be jerky, which did not make for a consistant weld.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:09:51 -0400
From: Michael Andrusiewicz
Subject: MC-Chassis Jet Hot update
Just a note on using Jet-Hot thermal coatings.
I sent out my Norton custom bent, 2 into 2 exhaust system ~ 2 weeks
ago. After some discussions with the floor manager/rep. regarding
price, materials, ect..., I chose to have the 2 headers, 2 megs, and 2
end caps silver coated, inside and out in the standard bright silver.
Thermal performance is not a primary concern of mine, but appearance and
durability are. (The 1300 deg. header paint wasn't working out well for
me. It chips easily and rusts at the sign of moisture....)
The total turn around time was 3 days. I received the pipes as
promised, carefully shipped UPS ground. Total cost, $145. The pipes
look great. The color is of well polished aluminum (not highly
polished). Hopefully, the should hold up.
The people at Jet-Hot are knowledgeable, friendly and courteous.....a
pleasure to deal with.
......IMHO
............All standard disclaimers apply.......
Mike A
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:26:21 -0500 (EST)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Dynos
>If a man says something in the forest, and there is no woman
>there to hear him, is he still wrong?
>
>
>Dick
My wife says "yes".
- --
Peter Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or engelbp@mczcr.gov.on.ca
Vintage Road Racing: it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:26:42 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Low Cost TIG welding
Clarification to my earlier post-
If you are only going to weld steel or SS, then any ordinary AC-DC arc
welder can be used with the TIG torch and flow regulator. If you want to
weld metals like Aluminum, THEN you need the hi-freq unit for use with
AC welding. (The big advantage of square wave machine is in the ability
to enhance the cleaning action of the AC arc. By adjusting only one side
of the arc curve, the aluminum oxides seem to "pop" off the surface
better. A cleaner surface means easier welding for aluminum.)
So, for steel and stainless, those cheap AC-DC buzz-boxes are just fine.
Aluminum is where you need to spend more money.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Weinshenker [SMTP:daze39@grin.net]
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 1998 7:33 PM
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
>
> jmark.vanscoter@amd.com wrote:
> > If you are going to ONLY weld steel and stainless-steel (NOT
> aluminum),
> > then an ordinary arc welder can be used as a power source. You will
> need
> > to "scratch-start" the arc (an acquired skill), but after that
> > everything is fine.
>
> What about aluminum? Is that where DC
> welding power and high-frequency
> arc starting systems become needed?
>
> -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:02:05 -0800
From: M Daniel
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Oxy acet welding safety
David Kath wrote:
>
> Gents... A warning, danger. Welding Safety Notice: If you were to adjust
> your welding torch to a nice neutral flame, snuff out the fire, and then
> Now, if you were to fill a 3' dia weather balloon with such a gas mix,
> with about a 6' fuse, lift it with 2 other weather balloons filled with
> helium.... ahh, don't do this down town... even on the 4th of July....
> window glass these days being so fragile...
>
Years ago... a friend of mine and I had just set up my Oxy accet torch
and noticed a old basketball laying on the floor.... The little needles
that you fill em up with fit nicely on a #2 tip..... Lots of broken
glass
but real cool to see all the basketball bits falling down in the
neighborhood.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:40:02
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
At 05:36 AM 11/16/98 +1000, you wrote:
> The wrench should always be left in place
>while the cylinder valve is open. Further, acetylene cylinders valves need
>not and should not be opened wide; one and one-half turns should be the
>limit.
Leaving the wrench on makes them faster to close in urgent sitch, but fact
is it's good practice to open all gas valves fully, because they have stem
packing which occasionally leaks, but they also have a top sealing gasket
activated when the valve is opened to it. That's why oxy cylinders are
specifically reco'd to be opened fully, to prevent large losses through
stem packing under those pressures. It's a useful trick with acetylene too.
Hope anyone disagreeing with me can cite a better reason for not fully
opening them than I did for the opposite.
Best regards,
Hoyt
Belfab CNC: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
Best MC Repair- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
Camping/Caving- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
'It's the end of the world as we know it; I feel fine' <=Michael Stipe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:05:28 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Fournier Newsletter
> -> No, from what I've gathered from Ron Fournier it is because the area
> -> around the weld is softer and easier to metal finish. I asked him
> -> via his newsletter
>
> Newsletter? Where?
Hello Dave,
You should be able to get s#bscription info at:
http://www.fournierenterprises.com/
The newsletter is small, but has interesting tidbits on various
projects/fabricators.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:20:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Zachary Eyler-Walker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 batwings@i-plus.net wrote:
> Leaving the wrench on makes them faster to close in urgent sitch, but fact
> is it's good practice to open all gas valves fully, because they have stem
> packing which occasionally leaks, but they also have a top sealing gasket
> activated when the valve is opened to it. That's why oxy cylinders are
> specifically reco'd to be opened fully, to prevent large losses through
> stem packing under those pressures. It's a useful trick with acetylene too.
>
> Hope anyone disagreeing with me can cite a better reason for not fully
> opening them than I did for the opposite.
I was taught to only open the acetylene main valve approximately 1/2 turn
after the tank pressure gauge started registering. The reasoning was that
in case of fire or other disaster it would be easier to shut off. The
story associated with this included a hose cracked near the regulator and
a giant jet of flame pretty much all around the tank. In such a
circumstance I'd be much happier grabbing the valve and closing it a half
turn than cranking it from wide open.
Zach
> Best regards,
>
> Hoyt
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #822
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Tuesday, November 17 1998 Volume 01 : Number 823
1. David E Harhay Subj: MC-Chassis TIG/MIG
2. David Weinshenker Subj: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
3. Frank Camillieri Subj: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
4. geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. ) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
5. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis SRX motor cad file
6. Geo van der Merwe Subj: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
7. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
8. "Thomas Alberti" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
9. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
10. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
11. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
12. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
13. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
14. briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles) Subj: RE: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
15. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
16. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: MC-Chassis: More plasma cutting news
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:09:11 -0500
From: David E Harhay
Subject: MC-Chassis TIG/MIG
We have a 140 amp MIG from a company called HTP. They
advertise in Hot Rod. It runs off of 110v/1/60hz and can weld
up to 3/8 steel plate, aluminum of unknown thickness, and SS
but have'nt tried. Cost was about $700US. It will do anything
a home shop needs especially the materials and thicknesses
of motorcycling. We also have a Miller Econo TIG that is a
stick welder also. It runs off of 220v/1/60hz and is a joy to op
erate. It is good to 3/16" steel and does aluminum and SS.
Same story, have not done any SS with it. Cost is around
$1700US. So you can get welders that operate on 110 or
220 that will do most of the tasks that will come by the way
of a home shop dude.
Dave Harhay
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:19:26 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
Can aluminum be welded with conventional oxy-acetylene
techniques, or is some form of gas shielded electric
welding (i.e. MIG or TIG) necessary?
(I think I've seen references to torch welding
aluminum but I'm not sure of the details -
something like it could be done but it was weird?)
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:32:44 -0500
From: Frank Camillieri
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
David Weinshenker wrote:
> Can aluminum be welded with conventional oxy-acetylene
> techniques
TM Technologies sells booklets and materials to gasweld aluminum. Check
them out at tinmantech.com
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 04:25:22 GMT
From: geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. )
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:19:26 -0800, you wrote:
>Can aluminum be welded with conventional oxy-acetylene
>techniques, or is some form of gas shielded electric
>welding (i.e. MIG or TIG) necessary?
Yes you can. It is an aquired skill...
Lindsay Publications (search the web) have a video on how to do it
by "the tin man" - also at www.tinmantech.com (?)
Cobalt blue glassses reduce the flare from the sodium flux, which
othermise makes it hard to see the puddle.
Geoff
- --
Radar detector FAQ, Forte Agent automation FAQ, bathroom fan FAQ
and THE WORLDS BEST CHRISTMAS PUDDING RECIPE
are at http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/
REMOVE "DELETEME" SPAMBLOCKER FROM ADDRESS TO REPLYTO USENET POSTINGS
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:56:20 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis SRX motor cad file
A long time ago someone on the list said they had or could make a cad
drawing of an SRX motor, or at least I think someone said as much. Well
if anything of the sort is out there I would welcome it.
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
WMMRA 935
FZR 400/600
"It's not my fault" - Han Solo
"It's not my fault" - Lando Calrisian
______________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:43:45 -0500
From: Geo van der Merwe
Subject: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
I have an AutoCad drawing of a CBR600F2/F3 (they have identical mounting
pounts) engine. The drawing was created by scanning in the key features on
a cmm, so it is fairly accurate. Let me know if anybody wants a copy of the
file.
Geo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 05:08:06 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
> I have an AutoCad drawing of a CBR600F2/F3 (they have identical mounting
> pounts) engine. The drawing was created by scanning in the key features on
> a cmm, so it is fairly accurate. Let me know if anybody wants a copy of the
> file.
Hello Geo,
I'm interested, but first, how big is the file size? I might be able
to stick it on the website if that would be easier for you to
distribute.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:27:07 -0600
From: "Thomas Alberti"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
> I have an AutoCad drawing of a CBR600F2/F3 (they have identical mounting
> pounts) engine. The drawing was created by scanning in the key features
on
> a cmm, so it is fairly accurate. Let me know if anybody wants a copy of
the
> file.
>
> Geo
Yes, please. My e-mail address is: talberti@execpc.com
Thanks,
Thomas
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:46:22 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
I have always opened the Acet. bottle 1 1/2 turns in efforts to keep the flow rate down in case of mishap. This should limit drag out of the acetone. Just a precaution perhaps, but does no harm. Somewhere I heard mention that these valves were constructed without the topping seal, but I have never "reverse engineered" one.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: batwings@i-plus.net
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
> Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 4:40 AM
>
> At 05:36 AM 11/16/98 +1000, you wrote:
> > The wrench should always be left in place
> >while the cylinder valve is open. Further, acetylene cylinders valves need
> >not and should not be opened wide; one and one-half turns should be the
> >limit.
>
> Leaving the wrench on makes them faster to close in urgent sitch, but fact
> is it's good practice to open all gas valves fully, because they have stem
> packing which occasionally leaks, but they also have a top sealing gasket
> activated when the valve is opened to it. That's why oxy cylinders are
> specifically reco'd to be opened fully, to prevent large losses through
> stem packing under those pressures. It's a useful trick with acetylene too.
>
> Hope anyone disagreeing with me can cite a better reason for not fully
> opening them than I did for the opposite.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:55:17 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
Michael
Get the file on your site if you can.
It would be of interest "just because"!
Regards
Calvin
- ----------
> > I have an AutoCad drawing of a CBR600F2/F3 (they have identical mounting
> > pounts) engine. The drawing was created by scanning in the key features on
> > a cmm, so it is fairly accurate. Let me know if anybody wants a copy of the
> > file.
>
> Hello Geo,
>
> I'm interested, but first, how big is the file size? I might be able
> to stick it on the website if that would be easier for you to
> distribute.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:06:03 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
Calvin Grandy wrote:
> I have always opened the Acet. bottle 1 1/2 turns in efforts to keep the flow rate down in case of mishap. This should limit drag out of the acetone. Just a precaution perhaps, but does no harm. Somewhere I heard mention that these valves were constructed without the topping seal, but I have never "reverse engineered" one.
The info I have seen is that the oxygen tank valves should
be "back seated" fully open to prevent stem leakage, and the
acetylene valves, with the small central wrench stem, should
be opened just a turn or so. (I've also seen acetylene tank
valves in the same style as those for oxygen, with a
handwheel... are these intended to back seat?)
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:26:44 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
Dave asked: "Can aluminum be welded with conventional oxy-acetylene
techniques, or is some form of gas shielded electric welding (i.e. MIG
or TIG) necessary?"
Aluminum can "easily" (a relative term) be welded with a conventional
oxy-acetylene torch. It only requires different goggles and flux. Ron
Covell (has column in Street Rod mag, metalsmith like Ron F.) sells a
lens for your goggles that is supposed to be "the best".
An even better way to weld aluminum is with oxy-hydrogen. If you ever go
to the EAA convention in Oshkosh (nee AirAdventure), you will see it as
they are always demonstrating it there. The advantage is cleaner heat
and (I think) more appropriate temperature range. I have tried it there
and was amazed how easy it was (much easier than O-A alum welding).
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:03:06
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
At 07:06 AM 11/17/98 -0800, you wrote:k
>valves in the same style as those for oxygen, with a
>handwheel... are these intended to back seat?)
Those are the ones I have and they do have backseats.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:39:50 -0800
From: briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles)
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
Mark Van Scoter posted:
(snip)
>An even better way to weld aluminum is with oxy-hydrogen. If you ever go
>to the EAA convention in Oshkosh (nee AirAdventure), you will see it as
>they are always demonstrating it there. The advantage is cleaner heat
>and (I think) more appropriate temperature range. I have tried it there
>and was amazed how easy it was (much easier than O-A alum welding).
Umm.. so I go to the welding supply place and say,"gimme a tank of
hydrogen.."?
What kind of guages do you use? Pressures? Tips sizes?
Brian
(trying to learn something new.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:20:55 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
Brian asked: "Umm.. so I go to the welding supply place and say, 'Gimme
a tank of
hydrogen..'? What kind of gauges do you use? Pressures? Tips sizes?"
Yes, you just walk up to the same counter as always and ask for
hydrogen. It is not uncommon.
You use standard gauges and tips. The most unusual item is the goggle
lens. Without the proper goggles, you won't be able to see the flame.
You use a yellow lens, ask at your supply house.
The problem with welding aluminum with Oxy-Acty is the excess carbon
that is create and can contaminate the weld. Since there is NO carbon in
hydrogen (dah, that's right!), you eliminate one big problem.
Word of caution, usually only "old-timers" are aware of oxy-hydrogen
welding.
Mark
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:47:56 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: MC-Chassis: More plasma cutting news
I happened to run into a gentleman (not literally) who previously was a
welding consultant, dealing primarily with plasma cutting. (He is now a
rep for welding torches and supplies.) He gave me some more info on
plasma technology that I thought some people might be interested in.
Stacking parts: theoretically possible, but there can be NO air gap. If
you are cutting 1/4" or 5/16" stock, it is not worth the trouble because
it will slow down your cutting speed too much. Far better to make two
separate cuts. The primary usage of multiple parts is with very light
sheet metal (with much clamping and presses).
Cutting smoothness: The finish on aluminum will not be as smooth as the
cut finish of fuel gas on steel (assuming a machine-made cut in both
cases). The finish on steel will be comparable between plasma and O-Ac
or O-fuel.
The finish on aluminum will improve if you spend (much) more and to use
a plasma torch that are not simply air-arc. There are other plasma
cutting gases and shielding gases available for the more exotic torches.
They have more heat and do a better job on aluminum.
In the '70's, there were plasma torches that hooked up to TIG power
sources. These were not totally successful because of a significant
difference in the design of the two power supplies: TIG power supplies
have an "Open Current Voltage" (OCV) of about 60-90 volts; plasma
cutting power supplies' OCV typically start at 165 volts and go (way) up
from there. The lower OCV does not allow enough gas to reach the plasma
state, so the cutting is both slow and ragged.
(That would seem to make the home-built plasma torch not worth the
effort.)
The market/technology leaders are Hypotherm and Thermal Dynamics, both
located just a few miles from each other. The technology was
invented/patented in 1956 by Thermal Dynamics, the Hypotherm people
split off from TD.
Some of the newest plasma outfits use a "chopper" style power supply.
This is a very high-frequency power supply that does an even better job.
Many of the mid-size plasma torches will run off (the powerful North
American) 110volts or 220 volts equally well. There is no perceptible
difference in the cutting ability.
Hope this all helps. As soon as I get my building finished, a plasma
torch will be one of my first investments. In fact, I think a
computer-controlled mechanized gantry-type plasma cutter would be the
way to go...
Mark
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #823
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Wednesday, November 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 824
1. "Glenn Thomson" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SRX motor cad file
2. Geo van der Merwe Subj: Re: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
4. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SRX motor cad file
5. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis Hoyt's FFE bearings
6. "Sam Stoney" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Gas welding AL
7. Bob Schnick Subj: MC-Chassis Suzuki SV650 frame, Ox/Acet torch shopping
8. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Drilling sprockets
9. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis: More plasma cutting news
10. bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
11. bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert) Subj: MC-Chassis Egli frames
12. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Hoyt's FFE bearings
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 21:58:28 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SRX motor cad file
On 16 Nov 98, yhakim@m5.sprynet.com wrote:
> A long time ago someone on the list said they had or could make a cad
> drawing of an SRX motor, or at least I think someone said as much. Well
> if anything of the sort is out there I would welcome it.
That was me. I've got a .dxf outline of the SRX to *approximate* scale.
On 17 Nov 98, Michael Moore wrote:
> > I have an AutoCad drawing of a CBR600F2/F3 (they have identical
> > mounting pounts) engine. The drawing was created by scanning in
> > the key features on a cmm, so it is fairly accurate. Let me know
> > if anybody wants a copy of the file.
>
> Hello Geo,
>
> I'm interested, but first, how big is the file size? I might be
> able to stick it on the website if that would be easier for you to
> distribute.
The SRX is 27k. I've also got a reasonably good 450 Honda, around
17k. Both side views only.
Cheers,
Glenn
gthomson(at)bserv.com
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:51:42 -0500
From: Geo van der Merwe
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
Hi,
Zipped I can get it down to 228 kb. The file is AutoCad R14, but I can save
it to other versions or file types if people require so.
Regards,
Geo
>Hello Geo,
>
>I'm interested, but first, how big is the file size? I might be able
>to stick it on the website if that would be easier for you to
>distribute.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:30:16 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:51:42 -0500
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> From: Geo van der Merwe
> Subject: Re: MC-Chassis F2/3 Engine CAD Drawing
> Reply-to: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Hi,
>
> Zipped I can get it down to 228 kb. The file is AutoCad R14, but I can save
> it to other versions or file types if people require so.
>
> Regards,
>
> Geo
Hello Geo,
How likely is my DOS copy of Autocad (12 or 13?) to be able to open
that without having it saved in an earlier format?
If you want, go ahead and shoot me both DOS and Windoze versions and
I'll stick them up on the website if you are getting swamped with
requests to email them.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, San Francisco CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American distributor of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
Host of 7 m/c email lists (details on the web site)
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:32:42 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SRX motor cad file
> The SRX is 27k. I've also got a reasonably good 450 Honda, around
> 17k. Both side views only.
Hello Glenn,
Send them along and I'll stick them up too.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:06:02 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis Hoyt's FFE bearings
Hello Hoyt,
Did you use taper roller bearings at each end of the a-arms on your
FFE? The smallest I can find is a Timken with 3/8" ID and just over
1.25" OD.
Since small race cars get by with a 3/8 rod end at the wheel and
5/16" at the forked end of the suspension arm I was hoping to find
something a little lighter for my EX250 racer project, and I was
hoping you might have found a smaller t/r bearing.
I've been thinking about the steering head and think I'm going to
end up mounting the bearings in the end of the A-arm, with the
forked clevis mounted on the steering head. Greg Stevenson reversed
that on his Vision racer, which no doubt made it easier to build the
one-piece aluminum steering head. It seems to me that I'll have a
nicer structure with the bearings on the a-arm, and the (steel)
steering head offers lots of purchase for securely welding the
double-shear mounts.
Of course, I still need to reread Tony's article on anti-dive another
3 or 6 times to get a real good feel for what is going on before I
can try and sort out the links. I believe you both may have said in
the past that longer links were better.
Thanks,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:39:07 -0800
From: "Sam Stoney"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Gas welding AL
I've been gas welding AL for a couple of years now and I can give some
pointers:
You need nothing other than AL rod, flux, and a regular torch and goggles.
This will work fine to learn, however it is hard to see what you're doing
with normal goggles. Tin Man, Fournier, and a few others sell a lens that
gets rid of the flux glare but it costs 110.00. Another tin beater, Ron
Covell is working on a lower cost one that might be available in Dec at
$25.00. I'll keep the list posted when I hear more about it. It should be
great for brazing as well, I'd guess.
Set your guages real low, and use an oversize tip when welding AL. The big
problem woth Oxy Acetelyne is that it's too hot and hard to control. Oxy
Hydrogen has a cooler flame - that's why it is used. A properly mixed oxy
acetelyne flame is just as clean.
Good luck getting advice from your local welding shop. All I ever get is
dumb looks and "you need Tig for that" from them. Consider yourself lucky
if you can get rod and flux from them.
All the advice in the world won't do you nearly as much good as just trying
it. I recommend starting on something relativly thick -.125" or so. And
make sure it's a weldable alloy.
All the above works for me. Your milage may vary.
Sam
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 03:53:02 -0400
From: Bob Schnick
Subject: MC-Chassis Suzuki SV650 frame, Ox/Acet torch shopping
Thia may be old news but the frame is different on the '99
Suzuki SV650, a 90 V-Twin 650, Sport bike thatlooks alot like
a '88 Honda NT650 is at:
,
the frame is at:
.
the specs are:
As for torch outfits, I tried a Marquette and like the gauges and the burning
torch but the welding torch leaves something to be desired. I can't get the
screw in tips to not leak without teflon tape and a small o-ring at the bottom
where it mates to the handle fitting. As it came from the retailer the welding
tip leaked badly.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:05:05 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Drilling sprockets
> The TL1000 list has been talking about trying to lighten an 18 tooth
> 530
> front sprocket. As it's hardened steel, they're having trouble getting
>
> it drilled.
A sprocket will not be anything too special material wise - you
can buy solid carbide drills but ( I shouldn't be giving away
trade secrets ) you can drill most hardened steels with ordinary
cheap carbide tipped masonary drills.
Sharpen them up a bit more than standard - run them slow and
use plenty of coolant & they'll go thru anything.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:31:47 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis: More plasma cutting news
>In the '70's, there were plasma torches that hooked up to TIG power
>sources. These were not totally successful because of a significant
>difference in the design of the two power supplies: TIG power supplies
>have an "Open Current Voltage" (OCV) of about 60-90 volts; plasma
>cutting power supplies' OCV typically start at 165 volts and go (way) up
>from there. The lower OCV does not allow enough gas to reach the plasma
>state, so the cutting is both slow and ragged.
>
>(That would seem to make the home-built plasma torch not worth the
>effort.)
Mark - thanks for the clear descriptions of these limits. I'll formally
discard the idea. :)
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:13:30 -0500 (EST)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
>
>Can aluminum be welded with conventional oxy-acetylene
>techniques, or is some form of gas shielded electric
>welding (i.e. MIG or TIG) necessary?
>
>(I think I've seen references to torch welding
>aluminum but I'm not sure of the details -
>something like it could be done but it was weird?)
>
>-dave w
>
I have never welded aluminum with oxy-acetylene but I have soldered it. My
local shop sells a flux coated aluminum soldering rod that works like a
charm. The rod melts about 400 degF lower than the al. Oddly the solder is
harder than the parts being joined once it all cools. You have to clean
all surfaces carefully and you heat the parts then rub the rod back and
forth along the joint. I've also experimented with coating both surfaces
with a thin layer of solder then putting them together and heating until
the solder melts again and the two parts join. You can solder aluminum pop
cans with this stuff and a small tip. You can also repair holes in cases
by backing the hole with sheet metal and then filling in with solder. I've
also machined parts after soldering and that works fine too.
- --
Peter Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or engelbp@mczcr.gov.on.ca
Vintage Road Racing: it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:21:44 -0500 (EST)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: MC-Chassis Egli frames
I'm looking at building an Egli type frame for my CB450. A friend tells me
he has seen pictures of one from many years ago but can't remember where.
Anyone have any hard evidence?
The Egli would work well with the tall Honda engine. Because the backbone
runs parallel with the ground I could keep the headstock height lower and
the bike more compact. Also, the stock frame's backbone tube is lower at
the rear which causes problems fitting bracing that needs to clear the carbs
and the rear cam cover.
Any suggestion on tube diameters and wall thicknesses?
- --
Peter Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or engelbp@mczcr.gov.on.ca
Vintage Road Racing: it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:55:08
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Hoyt's FFE bearings
At 08:06 PM 11/17/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hello Hoyt,
>
>Did you use taper roller bearings at each end of the a-arms on your
>FFE? The smallest I can find is a Timken with 3/8" ID and just over
>1.25" OD.
Yes, on the first. On second I replaced those with sokme ball-bng units,
singls on the inners and double-row at the SH. On the first, because the
frame ends of arms were seperate, I used opposed pairs. Sounds like your
bngs above are the ones.
>I've been thinking about the steering head and think I'm going to
>end up mounting the bearings in the end of the A-arm, with the
>forked clevis mounted on the steering head.
It's merely a matter of if you want to machine the ends of the arms or the
SH, for the ODs.
>Of course, I still need to reread Tony's article on anti-dive another
>3 or 6 times to get a real good feel for what is going on before I
>can try and sort out the links. I believe you both may have said in
>the past that longer links were better.
Yo, less change in rake and trail with travel, but I found that having them
move about 60 deg no problem in design and if rake/trail change is
increased by shorter links, at least in this case the effects were small
enough and enough in proper direction as to be no matter. You will however
find it harder to design with links much longer than about that of the
travel, as frame ends get back into areas usefully occupied by motor.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #824
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Wednesday, November 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 825
1. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Those damn statistics.
2. Julian Bond Subj: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
3. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Those damn statistics.
4. Johnayleng@aol.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
5. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
6. Nedragr345@aol.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
7. "Michael Moore" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
8. Russell Royal Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Those damn statistics.
9. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Egli frames
10. Les Sharp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Those damn statistics.
11. Tom & Gaby Subj: MC-Chassis grinding/smoothing welds
12. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis More photos
13. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis grinding/smoothing welds
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:23:03 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Those damn statistics.
This isn't chassis related but it follows on from Michael's comments after
his Spanish visit about the habits of spanish youth and their mopeds.
On Saturday night my 14 year old son was messing about on a friend's moto
with his best mate on the back. It was dark and the headlight wasn't
working, so inevitably he rode it hard into a car. He did this sufficiently
well to guarantee each of them several months in hospital to have their
smashed right legs repaired.
I caught up with them about two hours later in hospital when they both
seemed quite cheerful considering their obvious discomfort, however a few
hours later my son's mate passed into a coma. He had a blood clot in his
brain, despite them both having helmets it seems that he'd bumped his head,
although there had been no earlier signs of this.
As if that wasn't bad enough the lad's parents had gone away for the weekend
and had left him in our care, and I had no way to contact them until their
return. That Mr. Murphy knew a thing or two when he formulated his law.
These sort of events certainly highlight the significance of those damn
statistics far better than any of Mr. Gates' products.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 20:00:50 +0000
From: Julian Bond
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
In article <199811181813.NAA26843@freenet5.carleton.ca>, Peter Alan
Engelbert writes
>I have never welded aluminum with oxy-acetylene but I have soldered it. My
>local shop sells a flux coated aluminum soldering rod that works like a
>charm. The rod melts about 400 degF lower than the al. Oddly the solder is
>harder than the parts being joined once it all cools.
How strong is this stuff? For instance would it be useable for non-
critical but load bearing structures such as sub frames?
- -- --------============>>>>>>>>>> )+( <<<<<<<<<<============-------- --
Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
MegaScooter/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
8650 M/C Suppliers, Contacts & Addresses http://www.bikeweb.com
> Soft Damp <
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:45:12 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Those damn statistics.
>with his best mate on the back. It was dark and the headlight wasn't
>working, so inevitably he rode it hard into a car. He did this sufficiently
Tony: godspeed to your son and his friend. I hope they recover fully and
quickly.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:37:16 EST
From: Johnayleng@aol.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
In a message dated 11/18/98 2:26:56 PM Mountain Standard Time,
julian_bond@voidstar.com writes:
>
> How strong is this stuff? For instance would it be useable for non-
> critical but load bearing structures such as sub frames?
>
my .02 cents worth,
JC Whitney sells a product called Alumi-PRO. This can be used with a propane
torch. Requires no flux, just a very good clean up before mating. The rods
also come with a stainless steel brush for cleaning while welding (soldering).
No fumes and stronger than parent aluminum. Can be used on up to 3/8s" metal.
1/2 pound of rods was about 16.00 dollars US.
John Aylor NM
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:18:30 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
Peter and Julian said: "I have never welded aluminum with oxy-acetylene
but I have
soldered it. My local shop sells a flux coated aluminum
soldering rod that works like a charm. The rod melts about 400 degF
lower than the al. Oddly the solder is harder than the parts being
joined once it all cools."
"How strong is this stuff? For instance would it be useable for
non-critical but load bearing structures such as sub frames?"
The answer is a yes. Assuming you are using a fairly mild-strength
aluminum (with a reasonably thick wall), these brazes (and there are
many) are as strong or stronger than the aluminum.
That said, I still don't like them. Since it is a different metal,
in-field failures become a problem to repair (you must use the same
stuff again). I am concerned about flex and vibration since the alloy
braze will have different critical frequencies. But, they are easy to
use, and work nicely.
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 20:36:10 EST
From: Nedragr345@aol.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
<>
Actually an AC/DC or straight AC stick welder could, however you definately
need the Hi-freq to remove aluminum oxide. Regarding tig welding on thin gage
aluminum vs the good old oxyfuel torch, I have a friend who tried welding very
thin gauge aluminum .030 - .060" 3003 with a oxy/fuel. Big problems. He was
actually using a brazing process using a flux to remove oxides. After much
trouble, he purchased a Miller Econotig unit and from there on Tig welded
along very happily with little distortion. In this case the very intense
concentrated arc of the tig process gave him excellent control of heat and
distortion. There are also ways to quickly remove heat from the surounding
metal. One is water soaked rags to "steam" the heat out. Also, damp clay, mud
etc., can soak up alot of heat when welding small distances at a time.
Distortion should actually be less with the Tig welding process as a result of
speed of travel and as mentioned the intense local heat.
Good luck
Chris
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:43:51 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
> "How strong is this stuff? For instance would it be useable for
> non-critical but load bearing structures such as sub frames?"
>
> The answer is a yes. Assuming you are using a fairly mild-strength
> aluminum (with a reasonably thick wall), these brazes (and there are
If you are going to use mild-strength thick wall aluminum why
bother? Just go ahead and make a lighter and stronger part from
steel that won't have the fatigue problems of aluminum for less
money and bother.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:55:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Russell Royal
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Those damn statistics.
Tony,
I'm sure all our best wishes and hopes go out to you, your son and his
friend. I know the sinking feeling you must have felt, having once
returned home off the road to an empty farm, no son about and a
blood-stained wrecked pickup blocking the drive. Statistics hit home
hard when you least expect them.
Russ
===
Russell Royal
r2av@rocketmail.com
2995 Hwy 237
Auburn, WY 83111
Aviat Aircraft Inc.
- ---Tony Foale wrote:
>
> This isn't chassis related but it follows on from Michael's comments
after
> his Spanish visit about the habits of spanish youth and their mopeds.
> On Saturday night my 14 year old son was messing about on a friend's
moto
> with his best mate on the back. It was dark and the headlight wasn't
> working, so inevitably he rode it hard into a car. He did this
sufficiently
> well to guarantee each of them several months in hospital to have
their
> smashed right legs repaired.
> I caught up with them about two hours later in hospital when they both
> seemed quite cheerful considering their obvious discomfort, however
a few
> hours later my son's mate passed into a coma. He had a blood clot
in his
> brain, despite them both having helmets it seems that he'd bumped
his head,
> although there had been no earlier signs of this.
> As if that wasn't bad enough the lad's parents had gone away for the
weekend
> and had left him in our care, and I had no way to contact them until
their
> return. That Mr. Murphy knew a thing or two when he formulated his
law.
>
> These sort of events certainly highlight the significance of those
damn
> statistics far better than any of Mr. Gates' products.
>
> Tony Foale.
>
> Espaņa / Spain
> http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 19:14:48 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Egli frames
> Any suggestion on tube diameters and wall thicknesses?
Hello Peter,
I think Egli used a 4" backbone with 18-16g tubing. The subframe was
probably 7/8" or 1" .
Take a look at the pictures of the different Egli-style framed bikes
on the website. The Laverda section has the Segoni frames, and I
think in the new additions are the Laverda triple endurance racers
being built Down Under.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:49:02 +0800
From: Les Sharp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Those damn statistics.
Tony,
I'm sorry to hear about your son's accident. I'm sure everyone on the
list joins me in wishing him, and his friend, a speedy recovery.
- --
Best regards, Les
"Eye pierce heaven, foot stick in mud"
Planet Gearhead: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/conten~1.htm
Orange Wings: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/wings
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:59:11 -0700
From: Tom & Gaby
Subject: MC-Chassis grinding/smoothing welds
Hi all,
Hope this isn`t too dumb or been re-hashed too many times:
I have a Japanese frame(steel) frome the mid 80`s that has the messiest
welds I think I have ever seen. I would like to grind them and smooth
them out, then re-paint the frame. Is there any danger in doing so? Is
there a limit to how much material should be ground off? What would be
the proper tool to do such a job? Can it be smoothed out after grinding?
Thanks,
Tom
(ambition and persistance at the ready)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:22:14 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis More photos
I've got a pretty good assortment of photos added to the "new
additions" section of the graphics page on my website:
Drawings of what a 1999 MotoBi 250 might look like - supplied by Primo
Zanzani and sons.
Aermacchi/H-D CRS and ERS dirt bikes.
A 500cc(!) Honda CB72/77 vintage racer.
Four shots of a cool Moto Guzzi grass track sidecar outfit.
A couple of photos of the DEMM DOHC 50cc road racer.
A post race shot of the leaders of the 1957 IoM Lightweight TT.
Mike Hailwood and Jim Redman chatting in the pits.
A bunch of photos of Tony Foale's special framed bikes: Suzuki T500
twin (with Jack Findlay), 350 Ducati, Velocette, Villiers Starmaker,
Rudge 500, Rotax inline 250 twin, Moto Guzzi 1000.
Some photos/drawings of different 4LS front brake balance beam/box
arrangments.
Enjoy!
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:12:11 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis grinding/smoothing welds
Tom & Gaby wrote:
> I have a Japanese frame(steel) frome the mid 80`s that has the messiest
> welds I think I have ever seen. I would like to grind them and smooth
> them out, then re-paint the frame. Is there any danger in doing so?
I'd worry... it could be that the weld metal, even if it were
placed by a machine that looks like it almost missed, is
entirely adequate if it's all there - a broad, plump
beaded region may have enough strength, despite relatively
shallow penetration, if its base area gives enough section
thickness to the connection between the parent pieces.
Grinding away any of its height may leave a weak place
that does not develop the section thickness of the surrounding
metal.
Cleaning up surface spatter etc. should be no problem, but
take a real close look at the _actual_ construction of the
weld joint before grinding down "excess" bead height!
- -dave w
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #825
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, November 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 826
1. Hnry@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis Foale T500 frame
2. Marty Maclean Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Those damn statistics.
3. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: CAD & MC Design
4. "Thomas Alberti" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: CAD & MC Design
5. "Rui Fernandes" Subj: MC-Chassis Cheap TIG
6. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Cheap TIG
7. Julian Bond Subj: Re: MC-Chassis More HCS
8. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: CAD & MC Design
9. bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
10. bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
11. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Foale T500 frame
12. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis NSR500 swing arm
13. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis grinding/smoothing welds
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:50:14 EST
From: Hnry@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Foale T500 frame
Hello,
Looking at new photo's posted on Michael Moore's beloved web site, the picture
of a T500 frame [http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/suzy5003.jpg].
Are the vertical plates that connect swing arm, frame, engine, etc. aluminum?
If so, mechanical or welded joins to (assumed) steel frame?
Scott Jameson
Greenville, South Carolina
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 07:48:22 -0700
From: Marty Maclean
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Those damn statistics.
Tony Foale wrote:
> ...These sort of events certainly highlight the significance of those damn
> statistics far better than any of Mr. Gates' products.
>
To merely say 'best wishes' seems somehow hollow. But that's what I feel
and send.
Marty
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:51:55 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: CAD & MC Design
The November issue of Design News has a one page blurb on the CAD activities of Aprilia.
Contracting the folks at the University of Padua(Italy), they have done some optimization using "Working Model 3D" software.
Suspension simulation on scooters allowed reductions in unsprung mass,etc.
Interesting to those on the list is the work on the competition models.
Extractions from the text, and in need of some interpretation is as follows.
"In racing, any motion that prevents the competitor from reaching the finish line faster is motion wasted. That includes the occasionally severe pitching of a motorcycle front-end in rapid acceleration." "By simulating the effects of changes in tension, flexibility, and dimensions of components in the transmission and suspension systems, Cossalter's (the engineer) team made a series of modifications that effectively converted acceleration-induced momentum in the vertical axis to more manageable torque. As a consequence, the Model 410 is now faster in critical cornering maneuvers, improving overall lap times and rider safety."
No wonder they are so fast, they've got "puters!
I could use some help figuring out what they did. I can figure changing the swing arm pivot location. Does anyone know?
Also of interest was a similar article on Buell's application of FEA (finite element analysis) in speeding up time to production by minimizing prototypes. A comment indicated that the engine unit is not proving to be as ridged as had been believed.
I can imagine, as cylinder pressure can reduce the stud clamping pressure at the base to zero, and studs themselves are not good for bending loads.
M/C are getting a good bit of exposure, perhaps they will catch on.
regards
Calvin Grandy
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:44:45 -0600
From: "Thomas Alberti"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: CAD & MC Design
> Also of interest was a similar article on Buell's application of FEA
(finite element analysis) in speeding up time to production by minimizing
prototypes. A comment indicated that the engine unit is not proving to be
as ridged as had been believed.
Where did this article appear?
Also, if you go to www.buell.com, there are several colorful FEA pictures
of various components.
Thomas
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:56:38 -0500
From: "Rui Fernandes"
Subject: MC-Chassis Cheap TIG
This is an add for a MIG set up with a TIG torch and a "high frequency arc
stabilizer" for aluminum welding.
http://www.salesco.com/migs/economytig.htm
Rui.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:35:36 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Cheap TIG
Rui noted: "This is an ad for a MIG set up with a TIG torch and a "high
frequency arc
stabilizer" for aluminum welding.
http://www.salesco.com/migs/economytig.htm "
Some comments--
This is an AC/DC arc welder, not a MIG unit (MIG is a wire-feeder). This
is exactly the type of setup I was discussing as being suitable for
steel and stainless steel. Although it can include a hi-freq unit (which
would seem to be ideal for aluminum), the so-called flow-meter is not a
true flow meter. It is actually only a gauge (a "professional" flow
meter has a tube with a bearing in it; there must be enough gas flow to
raise the bearing; there are marks on the tube that indicate the
"height" of the flow, aka, the flow rate). A flow gauge like this is
(barely) adequate for MIG, but too frustrating to use with TIG. Flow is
dependent on pressure, but pressure does not directly determine flow.
For a very few dollars more, look at the Miller EconoTIG or Lincoln's
similar piece if aluminum welding interests you.
BTW, the power supplies/characteristics for MIG and TIG are very
different (one is constant voltage, the other constant amperes). The
power supplies/characteristics for arc and TIG are exactly the same
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 20:17:01 +0000
From: Julian Bond
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis More HCS
In article <4hBkBeA0RgA2EA1n@palmstech.com>, Julian Bond
writes
>In article <199809180019.RAA10781@mail3.sirius.com>, Michael Moore
> writes
>>The new MCN also had a two-page spread on the Tryphonos HCS bike.
>>They say it outhandles every current road bike in production.
>>
>>It looks to be a pretty standard Tesi-ish HCS and the steering gear
>>is hidden by the fairing so I can't see what has been done there.
>
>It appears to have a kingpin in the centre of the hub like the Tesi and
>Difazio.
I've just spent a pleasant 15 minutes talking to Mike Tryphonos on the
Avon stand at the NEC show.
The bike has a swingarm with a solid axle. A kingpin with zero offset
and a pair of tapered rollers rotates round the axle and runs out to the
right to a drag link which controls the rake and trail. On the left is
the brake mount and a drag link for the steering, parallel and the same
length as the rhs link to avoid bump steer. Starting at the handlebars,
a pivoting rod runs vertically down between the exhausts to a sidebar
between the exhausts and engine. This rod has a spherical bearing at
each end to locate it. The sidebar connects to the steering drag link.
This provides a very direct link between the wheel and handlebars at the
expense of having the handlebars some 4-5" in front of the pivot. Mike
said he tried a similar arrangement to the ASP on an early prototype
with uprights and a scissors arrangement, but couldn't get it all stiff
enough. The front wheel is his own casting but uses a Saxon CF rim. The
whole thing looks well engineered and a very nice solution. Probably
better than any other Difazio type FFE I've seen.
He's been messing with this for 8 years now and has decided to have one
last go at making this commercial. He'll build replicas at a rough price
of UKP16,000. Sadly, he's not interested in selling parts separately but
I'm sure money might persuade him! The only other alternative is to try
and get someody to buy the rights, but I don't really see this
happening.
The Hyperpro TRX was also at the show. This one is seriously weird! It's
hexagonal slider supported by 4 notched bearings doesn't look like it
would survive a slat road winter...
- -- --------============>>>>>>>>>> )+( <<<<<<<<<<============-------- --
Julian Bond
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:38:50 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: CAD & MC Design
Thomas:
Literature reference: "Design News" November 2 1998. A Cahners publication
www.designnews.com
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: Thomas Alberti
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: CAD & MC Design
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 1:44 PM
>
>
> > Also of interest was a similar article on Buell's application of FEA
> (finite element analysis) in speeding up time to production by minimizing
> prototypes. A comment indicated that the engine unit is not proving to be
> as ridged as had been believed.
>
> Where did this article appear?
>
> Also, if you go to www.buell.com, there are several colorful FEA pictures
> of various components.
>
>
> Thomas
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:12:39 -0500 (EST)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
I used the clamp-it-in-a-vise-and-reef-on-it-until-it-fails
test method and the solder held just fine. The aluminum failed. I've used
it for none critical joints with no problem.
>
>In article <199811181813.NAA26843@freenet5.carleton.ca>, Peter Alan
>Engelbert writes
>>I have never welded aluminum with oxy-acetylene but I have soldered it. My
>>local shop sells a flux coated aluminum soldering rod that works like a
>>charm. The rod melts about 400 degF lower than the al. Oddly the solder is
>>harder than the parts being joined once it all cools.
>
>How strong is this stuff? For instance would it be useable for non-
>critical but load bearing structures such as sub frames?
>
>-- --------============>>>>>>>>>> )+( <<<<<<<<<<============-------- --
>Julian Bond
- --
Peter Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or engelbp@mczcr.gov.on.ca
Vintage Road Racing: it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:14:15 -0500 (EST)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis welding aluminum
>
> JC Whitney sells a product called Alumi-PRO. This can be used with a propane
>torch. Requires no flux, just a very good clean up before mating. The rods
>also come with a stainless steel brush for cleaning while welding (soldering).
>No fumes and stronger than parent aluminum. Can be used on up to 3/8s" metal.
>1/2 pound of rods was about 16.00 dollars US.
>
>John Aylor NM
>
>
Sounds like the same stuff only twice as expensive as from a welding
supply house.
- --
Peter Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA or engelbp@mczcr.gov.on.ca
Vintage Road Racing: it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:25:52 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Foale T500 frame
> Looking at new photo's posted on Michael Moore's beloved web site, the picture
> of a T500 frame [http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/suzy5003.jpg].
> Are the vertical plates that connect swing arm, frame, engine, etc. aluminum?
> If so, mechanical or welded joins to (assumed) steel frame?
Hello Scott,
Yes, it did have aluminum plates and they were bolted up (you can
just see the bolt heads in the picture) - Wittner did the same thing
(bolting the plates to the cross tube) when he later copied Tony's
Guzzi frame.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:28:53 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis NSR500 swing arm
The new M/c News from England mentions that the Honda GP 500 twin
will go to a twin-arm unit at the back.
In comparison to the single-arm, the new unit is nearly 1KG lighter
and allows the suspension to work better, as well as giving more
feedback and improving tire wear.
Also mentioned is the Britten firm is planning to do a 6 valve 500cc
single with a stressed engine in a CF chassis - for motocross!
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:06:29 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis grinding/smoothing welds
>Hi all,
>
> Hope this isn`t too dumb or been re-hashed too many times:
>I have a Japanese frame(steel) frome the mid 80`s that has the messiest
>welds I think I have ever seen. I would like to grind them and smooth
>them out, then re-paint the frame. Is there any danger in doing so? Is
>there a limit to how much material should be ground off? What would be
>the proper tool to do such a job? Can it be smoothed out after grinding?
>Thanks,
>
>Tom
>(ambition and persistance at the ready)
A friend recently purchased used VF750 - one of the models with an aluminum
frame. It was polished to the hilt, including the frame. Much to his
chagrin, the steering stem is cracking off of the frame because the welds
were ground down and polished.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #826
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Sunday, November 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 827
1. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis NSR500 swing arm
2. Tom & Gaby Subj: MC-Chassis Re:Grinding/smoothing welds
3. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Suzy frame
4. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Suzy frame
5. "Thomas Belvin" Subj: MC-Chassis Mopeds
6. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:08:32 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis NSR500 swing arm
On Thu, 19 Nov 1998, "Michael Moore" wrote:
>The new M/c News from England mentions that the Honda GP 500 twin
>will go to a twin-arm unit at the back.
>
>In comparison to the single-arm, the new unit is nearly 1KG lighter
>and allows the suspension to work better, as well as giving more
>feedback and improving tire wear.
>
>Also mentioned is the Britten firm is planning to do a 6 valve 500cc
>single with a stressed engine in a CF chassis - for motocross!
>
>Cheers,
>Michael
Honda's 500gp bikes always had double sided S/A, maybe they mean the
NSR500V.
Would A CF chassis really be a good idea for MX? I thought that MX
chassis flexed alot, well more than RR anyway. wouldn't a CF chassis
break or fatigue rapidly under that kind of load?
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 18:13:48 -0700
From: Tom & Gaby
Subject: MC-Chassis Re:Grinding/smoothing welds
Thanks Dave and Al for replying. I believe I may clean up a few spatter
drops, but I`ll leave the welds themselves alone. I am not interested in
creating a dangerous situation.
Tom
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 00:42:53 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Suzy frame
Scott enquired:
<<
Looking at new photo's posted on Michael Moore's beloved web site, the
picture
of a T500 frame [http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/suzy5003.jpg].
Are the vertical plates that connect swing arm, frame, engine, etc.
aluminum?
If so, mechanical or welded joins to (assumed) steel frame?
>>
Yes the plates were aluminium.
The main frame was a steel backbone with a cross tube at it's rear end.
This X-tube was about 2.0" dia. near the outer ends of this X-tube there
were flanges.
The aluminium plates were located by the ends of the X-tube that protuded
through the flanges, effectively making large diameter dowels. Additional
there was a ring of bolts to hold the whole thing together. There're some
more pics. of it on my site under "misc pics", it was built in 1973. and it
worked well.
It was not at all unlike some of Geoff Monty's GMS, although they had more
length between the X-tube and the S/A pivot, this and the thinner aluminium
plate used would have allowed more flex, some of the effects of this would
have been offset by the lower power and inferior tyres of the day.
Basically, my later TZ750 and Moto Guzzi frames used a similar design but
the bolted on aluminium plates were replaced with steel sheet fabrications
welded to the X-tubes.
OK, so which was best, Al. plate or sheet steel? No easy answer, it's
really a matter of horses for courses. The Suzy. did well as a privateer's
500 GP machine, the TZ750 won races and the British championship, the Guzzi
certainly was liked by Dr. John and the Guzzi factory.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 07:54:12 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Suzy frame
> OK, so which was best, Al. plate or sheet steel? No easy answer, it's
> really a matter of horses for courses.
FWIW, I really like the steel fabrications - it seems like a more
elegant way to build it - no bolts to work loose, all the metal on
the outside of the structure, etc.
But Tony is the boffin and if he figures both are OK, that's fine
with me.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 11:04:03 PST
From: "Thomas Belvin"
Subject: MC-Chassis Mopeds
I have a Peugoet moped that I rode everywhere before the piston rings
broke, but that's being fixed now. I also have an old 98cc bike that I'm
trying to find the make and model on. Once I find bikes that used 24"
wheels with tiny engines I'll be home free. I'm also interested in
electric motorcycles, but not the rebuilt ones with batteries strapped
on. I'm interested in information about an electric bike's chassis that
doesn't look like a pregnant scooter.
Tommy
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 21:14:01 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
The Zanzanis sent me an ACAD file with a side view of the MotoBi
crankcases, so I added to that a rudimentary top end and plugged it
into an existing drawing to start work on the MotoBi frame.
The file from the Zanzanis was done in 1 mm increments, so when I
imported it into a 1" increment dwg file the crankcases were about 25
times too big (BIG).
There is a "scale" command in ACAD that lets you scale up/down an
object by a given multiplier. Once I figured out that I didn't scale
by -25.4 (no negative numbers) but rather .03937 it shrank down to
the proper size.
It strikes me (ouch!) that this might be handy for casting patterns.
Draw the part to full size, then scale it up by the appropriate shrink
factor, and you'd have a drawing that you could read the new
dimensions from and make your pattern.
Is there any reason that this wouldn't work?
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #827
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Monday, November 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 828
1. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
2. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
3. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
4. Les Sharp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
5. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis foundry patterns and forkless bike Re: MC-Chassis foundry patterns and forkless bike questions.
6. Duncan Griffiths Subj: Re: MC-Chassis NSR500 swing arm
7. Craig Kenfield Subj: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
8. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
9. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
10. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Which is best?
11. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Pattern making
12. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Angry V8.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 21:02:10 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
Michael Moore wrote:
> It strikes me (ouch!) that this might be handy for casting patterns.
> Draw the part to full size, then scale it up by the appropriate shrink
> factor, and you'd have a drawing that you could read the new
> dimensions from and make your pattern.
>
> Is there any reason that this wouldn't work?
Should work fine as long as you actually want a uniform dimensional
shrink factor. Someone who is actually familiar with foundry
practice would have to tell you whether this is invariably
the case...
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 21:32:32 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
> Should work fine as long as you actually want a uniform dimensional
> shrink factor. Someone who is actually familiar with foundry
> practice would have to tell you whether this is invariably
> the case...
Hello Dave,
I've seen reference to "shrink rulers" that are measuring scales that
read in standard units, but the units are actually spaced apart
according to the different shrink factors. It seems to me that if
you use a shrink ruler you'd end up with a part that was 1.X times
bigger in all dimensions, so it seems like the scale function would
give you the same thing only reading in real units for laying out the
pattern.
But I've not done any pattern making, so I'm hoping someone on the
list who has will address it.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 21:23:32 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
Michael Moore wrote:
> Hello Dave,
>
> It seems to me that if
> you use a shrink ruler you'd end up with a part that was 1.X times
> bigger in all dimensions, so it seems like the scale function would
> give you the same thing only reading in real units for laying out the
> pattern.
Scale command should do the exact same thing.
> But I've not done any pattern making, so I'm hoping someone on the
> list who has will address it.
The question in my mind is whether the shrink factors to
use might change for different portions of a given part,
depending for example on whether there were particularly
thick or thin sections in one or another direction...?
I suspect that the CAD software may have features to
scale an object individually along different axes, if
a nonuniform shrink were to be required in a particular
case.
Now all we need is one of those "rapid prototyping"
machine that builds a solid shape out of stacked,
glued layers of laser-cut paper... they're said to
be perfectly useful for making casting patterns!
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:08:04 +0800
From: Les Sharp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
Mike,
The materials will shrink differently depending on the thickness.
Thicker parts shrink more, so try to design *everything* to a constant
thickness if possible. Having said this, the thicker parts are usually
where you're going to put a hole for a bearing or mounting point which
you're going to bore anyway....
On a completely different topic....does anyone know what kerosene
(parrafin) will do to soft brake parts? I've got a completely seized
brake pad support pin in an otherwise perfect caliper. I want to EDM
(spark erode) it out, but the machines use kerosene for coolant...
- --
Best regards, Les
"Eye pierce heaven, foot stick in mud"
Planet Gearhead: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/conten~1.htm
Orange Wings: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/wings
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:45:16 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis foundry patterns and forkless bike Re: MC-Chassis foundry patterns and forkless bike questions.
Hi Michael,
Thanks again for the welcome and the update on your intresting projects.
I can offer a few resources for your questions on casting shrinkage. I
do remember the special rulers from engineering school, but, you might
also call Ivan at San Leandro Pattern Works (510) 672-1483. He has been
making patterns for my new bike, so it would be OK to say I sent you.
Also, you might talk to Bret Cobler at Castco (510) 562-7686. They did
the swingarm and upright castings for the 350 project. Bret is now a
good friend of mine and will be glad to talk about bike stuff. Tell him
I said Hi.
As I mentioned in my e-mail to you, I am working on a new bike design.
It happens to have many cast parts. I am finding that designing for
srinkage is just one of many considerations. I am learning that uniform
wall thickness is important. If I have a part with an overly thick
area, it needs to be relativly close to a gate or riser so that it will
be fed as the thinner material cools and shuts off flow. I am told that
if this does not happen, the thick area may actually end up being a week
area with an internal breakdown of the metal structure. Draft seems to
be a no-brainer unless I have a pocket with a hight depth to width, then
extra draft is needed, especialy for green sand. The biggest problem so
far seems to be parts getting bent or warped during heat treating. I
will get two identical parts back with slightly different demensions.
The foundry thinks the parts might have been at the bottom of a pile of
parts in the tank and bent from the weight. I just have to work around
it...
I have two questions for anyone's reply : First, Does anyone have any
information on the Van der Hiede bike that is in Roadracing World this
month? I am specifically intrested in their patents. I would not want
to copy something that is protected... I did called Two Bros Racing
(they were mentioned in the brief article). They have never heard of
the bike prior to the RRW article.
My second question is regarding unsprung mass in production forkless
bikes. Does anyone happen to know if the unsprung mass in the frontend
of bikes like the Tesi or GTS is comprable to that of a conventional?
Thanks,
Julian Farnam
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:04:06
From: Duncan Griffiths
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis NSR500 swing arm
At 09:13 PM 11/22/98 -0800, Yousuf wrote:
>
>Honda's 500gp bikes always had double sided S/A, maybe they mean the
>NSR500V.
Yes. The RC-45 superbikes went through the same transformation this year
and benefited significantly according to the riders. No official
abandonment of the idea, but Honda does seem to be getting away from it. I
can't remember what the NSR250 did this year.
Anybody know any of the details of the FCC/TSR chassis for the RS250 motor.
Their bikes seem to be as good or better than all of the factory NSR250's,
with the possible exception of Jacque. When the privateers are beating the
factory boys on a regular basis, there must be something to it.
>Would A CF chassis really be a good idea for MX? I thought that MX
>chassis flexed alot, well more than RR anyway. wouldn't a CF chassis
>break or fatigue rapidly under that kind of load?
>
The MX chassis would flex because it wasn't stiff enough not to. The
impact loading is certainly higher in MX, but if the chassis is designed
properly, it won't break or fatigue rapidly. As long as the properties of
CF are taken into account, I don't see a problem. The Britten boys did a
tremendous job with their road racer.
Duncan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 00:52:54 -0600
From: Craig Kenfield
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
At 9:23 PM -0800 11/22/98, David Weinshenker wrote:
>Now all we need is one of those "rapid prototyping"
>machine that builds a solid shape out of stacked,
>glued layers of laser-cut paper... they're said to
>be perfectly useful for making casting patterns!
>
>-dave w
Don't count on it... I worked at a place where we had a rather, ah,
interesting moment when the LOM model of an engine didn't quite fit into
the prototype frame. Seems that the height dimension on LOM parts can vary
due to the glue used to hold the layers together, the humidity, and maybe a
couple other things.
- -Craig
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 23:03:24 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
David Weinshenker wrote:
>
> Now all we need is one of those "rapid prototyping"
> machine that builds a solid shape out of stacked,
> glued layers of laser-cut paper... they're said to
> be perfectly useful for making casting patterns!
>
> -dave w
I've been using ABS patterns that are cut by CNC. This is espessially
usfull for things with repeated shapes like tri-spoke wheels and
cush-drive hubs. I don't know about the paper ones, but SLA or Cubital
patterns would work great if you didn't mind the surface stepping. I
tend to prefer CNC because the surface finish can be so nice. I wonder
if the paper ones could be used as investment paterns like many
manufaturers are doing with foam?
Julian Farnam
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 23:08:58 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
Les Sharp wrote:
> On a completely different topic....does anyone know what kerosene
> (parrafin) will do to soft brake parts? I've got a completely seized
> brake pad support pin in an otherwise perfect caliper. I want to EDM
> (spark erode) it out, but the machines use kerosene for coolant...
EDM out the pin, tear down the caliper, and reassemble with
new pin, rubber rings, and pads. If the caliper is indeed
otherwise in perfect condition, changing the rubber sealing
bits is generally fairly painless.
(It's when the caliper bores
are full of varnishey gick, that would resemble the
contents of a neglected carburetor but for color,
gray-green instead of red-brown, that the job gets nasty -
you've got to scrape away the residue without
damaging the sealing surfaces of the grooves
for the rubbers! Like cleaning piston
ring grooves, except it's on the inside of a bore,
and the ring that came out of it is of little
use as material for a precisely sized
groove scraper...)
In the case of a precautionary replacement of the
rings in a basically healthy caliper, the job is
nowhere as nasty... you just (after removing the
pistons) tenderly peel out the little rings and
nestle the fresh ones in their place.
What happens if you use brake fluid instead of
kerosene as filling for the EDM machine? Would
the spark erosion process still work properly,
or would brake fluid break down at the spark
and contaminate the whole mess in some weird way?)
I'd still want to replace the pads if
they'd been submerged in brake fluid...
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:57:43 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Which is best?
Michael said:
<<
I really like the steel fabrications - it seems like a more
elegant way to build it - no bolts to work loose, all the metal on
the outside of the structure, etc.
>>
All quite true, but it's more work to make and harder to keep every thing in
alignment.
Secondly, the Al. plate and the bolted on down tubes that I used, give a
reat deal of flexibility if you need to experiment with engine position and
to some extent wheelbase also. You just make a few sets of plates, this
will be a snap, now that everybody on the list is getting CNC plasma
cutters.
Like I said, both methods of construction have their place.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:03:30 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Pattern making
Michael said,
<<
Draw the part to full size, then scale it up by the appropriate shrink
factor, and you'd have a drawing that you could read the new
dimensions from and make your pattern.
>>
You could of course do this, and have a drawing full of hard to read
diamensions.
Or you could do what real pattern makers do and use a pattern maker's ruler.
These are normal rulers with "longer" inches.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:40:21 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Angry V8.
The V8 has fired in anger ( competition ) for the first time.
We competed in the Geelong speed trials on the weekend. It is
an unusual event that has been running for 42 years - basically a
quarter mile drag - difference being that it around a curve on the
beautiful Geelong foreshore.
It attracts some of the most exquisit machinery in Australia - mostly
cars ( some in the million dollar range ) and a quite few bikes -
Manx Nortons, Gold Star BSA's as well as a few modern machines.
It is free to watch but people can pay to get into the 'pits' and touch
some of this lovely old machinery. An American enthusiast I spoke
to was amazed that spectators could wander around as the cars were
being marshalled - driving up and down amongst children etc.
On this subject - a character named Bib Stillwell in his late 70's
( was actually CEO of Learjet at one point ) drove his irreplacable
Repco-Brabham Formula.1. championship winning race car at the
meeting. Nothing unusual there except that 2 years ago he got
crossed up in the braking area and hit a light pole - tearing the car
in half and breaking his legs. Instead of sueing the organisors,
council, tyre / bitumen manufacturers he spent $125,000 getting
his car restored and came back this year to have another go. He was
presented with a cartoon of his car wrapped around the pole with
the caption " Bib gets pole position". A marshall in the braking
area was faced with an extremely wide F1 car coming at him
( 2 years ago ) and had the calm to jump behind the pole to have
half a million dollars of car go either side of him. He has not
marshalled since then.
My rider was a little too enthusiastic on the starts and mono-ed
over the trigger every run and we never got a time - he is a 250 GP
class rider and he apparently impressed all and sundry hanging
off the bike with his helmet inches from the concrete wall as he
went down for his pass.
Bike went well apart from 2 completely lunched clutches.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #828
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Monday, November 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 829
1. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
2. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis foundry patterns and forkless bike Re: MC-Chassis foundry patterns and forkless bike questions.
3. Michael Andrusiewicz Subj: [none]
4. Les Subj: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
5. AR Groom Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Help
6. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Pattern making
7. Dick Brewster Subj: MC-Chassis Brake seals
8. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Help
9. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Help
10. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Angry V8.
11. Julian Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Greetings and update
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:28:20
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
At 09:23 PM 11/22/98 -0800, you wrote:
>The question in my mind is whether the shrink factors to
>use might change for different portions of a given part,
>depending for example on whether there were particularly
>thick or thin sections in one or another direction...?
I haven't had a lot of on-hands stuff in foundry, but I did study those
chapters in various shop schools. There was never any mention of
differential shrinkage and no-one has ever mentioned differing shrink
scales for different orientaions. Instead, they go solely by material being
poured. That matches up well with my belief that all shrink in a pour
cooling off is symmetrical or so little asymmetrical it doesn't matter.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:34:19
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis foundry patterns and forkless bike Re: MC-Chassis foundry patterns and forkless bike questions.
At 10:45 PM 11/22/98 +0000, you wrote:
>My second question is regarding unsprung mass in production forkless
>bikes. Does anyone happen to know if the unsprung mass in the frontend
>of bikes like the Tesi or GTS is comprable to that of a conventional?
Having built two of these using fork tubes for the upright, I can tell you
it's going to be approx the same as a UDS having steel tubes moving with
wheel, and possibly slightly heavier than a normal aluminum slider setup.
The diffs can be minimized however by using smaller/thinner-walled tubing
for the upright. No way of telling what the Tesi/GTS was like, but in my
case the difference certainly didn't affect handling; these will stick and
are controllable when everything else is chattering and dancing. Possibly
you would simply tune your front damper w/o regard for it, the tuning
process itself being able to settle in on optimum anyway. Works for me.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:37:48 -0400
From: Michael Andrusiewicz
Subject: [none]
Hi All,
I'm missing all the posts from Fri to Sun nite (server problems).
If anyone tried to write me direct, I probably missed it, so please
repost it....
Thanks
Mike A
Hoyt - - did you get my earlier message? As of today (11-23)...still no
luck with the mail....
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:56:31 +0800
From: Les
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis ACAD "scale" command and foundry patterns
David,
Painless indeed if you can get the seals, which I can't...so I'll
probably drill it out and do a helicoil repair instead.
Best regards, Les
David Weinshenker wrote:
>
> Les Sharp wrote:
> > On a completely different topic....does anyone know what kerosene
> > (parrafin) will do to soft brake parts? I've got a completely seized
> > brake pad support pin in an otherwise perfect caliper. I want to EDM
> > (spark erode) it out, but the machines use kerosene for coolant...
>
> EDM out the pin, tear down the caliper, and reassemble with
> new pin, rubber rings, and pads. If the caliper is indeed
> otherwise in perfect condition, changing the rubber sealing
> bits is generally fairly painless.
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:22:36 +0000 (GMT)
From: AR Groom
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Help
Hi there,
having just subscribed, I'll tell you about myself. I'm only a
nipper at age 19, indeed still have a restricted license. Typically,
grew up with bikes, step-dad raced a gold-star etc.
I found the list whilst looking for info on FFE motorbikes such
as GTS1000 Yamaha and Bimota Tesi.
I need a few questions answering 'cos although I can see many
benefits and have my own theories as to why it works, I'm not entirely
sure they're right. Given that I'm going to talk to my fellow student
engineers on the subject in a couple of weeks, I kinda reckon I should
find out some more.
If anyone can help with these:
Q:Why do front swing arms seperate the braking and steering forces?
Q:Do they dive a lot less than conventional tele and if so why?
Q:Can anyone send me any diagramatic pictures, particularly of the ones
involving parallelograms stuff, preferably with a few explanations?
Q:Are they expensive to produce and if not, why aren't they being used
much
So long,
ag8066@bristol.ac.uk
_____ __ ____ ____
/ / | / | / | / /
/ /___| /____/ /____/ |___/
/ / |/ / /
GHMOC______________________/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:41:39 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Pattern making
On the subject of shrinkage compensation, we must remind ourselves that the contraction is in units of millimeters per millimeter.(or in./ in.) The absolute dimensional change will be in proportion to the casting thickness in the same orientation. A thick cast section will shrink "more" than a thin one of the same physical "size". This leads to the subjectivity and experienced based "shrink factor" that comes from the foundryman.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- --
>
> You could of course do this, and have a drawing full of hard to read
> diamensions.
> Or you could do what real pattern makers do and use a pattern maker's ruler.
> These are normal rulers with "longer" inches.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:20:24 -0800
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: MC-Chassis Brake seals
Les, Way back before dirt was invented, hydraulic brake systems
were designed to work with alcohol/glycol kinds of fluids,
partially because they didn't have soft elastomers that would
hold up in petroleum products.
A brake seal from the last 10 years, may or may not survive
kerosene. If you have another seal or piece of seal from the same
source, you could soak it in kerosene for a couple of days and
see if it deteriorates or absorbs any kerosene.
Dick
Les wrote:
>
> David,
>
> Painless indeed if you can get the seals, which I can't...so I'll
> probably drill it out and do a helicoil repair instead.
>
> Best regards, Les
>
> David Weinshenker wrote:
> >
> > Les Sharp wrote:
> > > On a completely different topic....does anyone know what kerosene
> > > (parrafin) will do to soft brake parts? I've got a completely seized
> > > brake pad support pin in an otherwise perfect caliper. I want to EDM
> > > (spark erode) it out, but the machines use kerosene for coolant...
> >
> > EDM out the pin, tear down the caliper, and reassemble with
> > new pin, rubber rings, and pads. If the caliper is indeed
> > otherwise in perfect condition, changing the rubber sealing
> > bits is generally fairly painless.
> >
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:49:25
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Help
At 03:22 PM 11/23/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
>Q:Why do front swing arms seperate the braking and steering forces?
No decent F suspension couples them, or they'd get mighty hard to steer, yes?
>
>Q:Do they dive a lot less than conventional tele and if so why?
Yes, because the reaction forces from brake anchor can be made to act on
the suspension's position.
>
>Q:Can anyone send me any diagramatic pictures, particularly of the ones
>involving parallelograms stuff, preferably with a few explanations?
Sorry, serious builders of FFE seem to all be using un-equal length links;
at a minimum both of mine did. You can see pix of them on M Moore's site.
>
>Q:Are they expensive to produce and if not, why aren't they being used
>much
It's tough to get the precision of steering needed with Heims and using all
tapered rollers requires a good deal of precision machining. All in all,
though, if an industry grows up around these like it has with forks,
they'll be cheaper.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:40:38 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Help
>If anyone can help with these:
>
>Q:Why do front swing arms seperate the braking and steering forces?
>
>Q:Do they dive a lot less than conventional tele and if so why?
>
>Q:Can anyone send me any diagramatic pictures, particularly of the ones
>involving parallelograms stuff, preferably with a few explanations?
>
>Q:Are they expensive to produce and if not, why aren't they being used
>much
Hello, welcome!
Disclaimer: I'm probably not the best qualified on the list to answer these
questions, but since I'm doing my mail, I'll give it a shot.
1: Front SA separates the braking forces and steering forces because there
is a direct load path to the frame to support the braking forces. This
allows the steering linkage to be non-load bearing.
2: A front SA system can be set up to have any amount of brake dive by
adjusting the geometry. In fact, they can be set up to rise under braking.
To wit: when Yamaha developed the GTS FFE, they initially set up the
geometry to produce no dive, but test riders persisted in crashing the bike
under braking. In production, they included some dive because riders tend
to judge the amount of braking by the bikes change in attitude.
3: Check the Eurospares website. Look for list owner Michael Moore's tag
line for the address.
4: The expense of a FFE is not due to production costs - it's research
costs. Mfg's have lots of $$$ invested in the development and evolution of
telescopic forks. If I may speak for the list, I think the belief is that
tele forks are nearing the end of their development cycle: to increase
stiffness, the male portion of the slider has been made larger and larger,
and the wall thickness has been made thinner and thinner to keep weight
reasonable. These thin wall forks are now very fragile - rock dings and
minimal crash damage destroy the tubes quie easily.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:45:40 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Angry V8.
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Ian Drysdale wrote:
>The V8 has fired in anger ( competition ) for the first time.
Next time make a video tape so those of us unlikely to make it out of
the states anytime soon can share in the fun.
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:51:05 +0000
From: Julian
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Greetings and update
Greetings to all,
Although I have known Michael Moore for over two years now, I am new to
this forum. (he did mentioned it to me way back when, but I was very new
to all this internet stuff... still am.) Last night I came across some
archived postings and decided I better get hooked in.
Micheal asked that I give an update on my projects... I am currently
building my third forkless motorcycle (actually a set of three and one
set of spares).
I built my first bike (the "Recon") ten years ago while studing
transportation design at a design school in southern California. It was
designed in seven weeks and built in seven more. It is based on a
Yamaha Zuma. Yes we're talking 50cc of raw 2-stroke power. I cut off
the front of the Zuma frame and added a swingarm(single side) and the
usuall double wishbone type linkage. The bike (unlike most other
projects in the class) worked. It will actually do 30mph!
After graduation, I set out to design and build a real motorcycle. One
that might do 130mph. I figured that if I could do a scooter in seven
weeks, one year should be about right for a motorcycle. Having grown up
in the RD and RZ era, I decided that grafting a swingarm to the font of
an RZ frame would be the way to go.
Well to keep the story short, seven years later, I did my first test
ride on the bike at Sears Point (AFM event and met Michael Moore). It
does use an RZ 350 engine, although my idea to use the RZ frame ended up
being reduced to a few misc. brakets and the rear swingarm gussets. I
wanted this bike to look like it was made in a factory rather than
scabed together in my garage, so it utilizes a lot of parts that are
fabricated by methods more suitable for mass production. I won't go
into a lot of detail, as Michael has eight wonderful photos of the bike
on his graphics page. The photos speak better than I can...
The bike has now been on a race track four times and has had four
different riders. Although, I did not set out to build a race bike, it
has been a great pleasure to ride under race conditions. The bike does
have a few broblems (some chatter in the front at high speeds -
100+mph), but generaly works very well. The front does dip some during
braking, although nothing close to a conventional bike. Steering
feedback is great. The bike is very nice handling in both tight corners
and the fast open stuff. John Joss rode the bike at Buttonwillow last
year and hit the curbing on one corner, launching the frontend in the
air. He came back in, totally amazed that the front wheel instantly
stabalized upon re-contact with the ground. No tank slapper or wobbles
as he expected.
My plans for this bike now, are to add some lights and finish the body
work. My goal has always been for this bike to be a fun little street
racer.
I did not go to a single race this year so that I could use the time
developing a new bike. My biggest lesson from the 350 project, was that
it is not worth the time to build just one bike. Too much time is spent
on fixtures, tooling, patterns, etc...
Right now I'm well under way with a 600 Rotax powered design that will
use a double sided front swingarm. I see advantages to both the single
side and double sided. I have to try both I guess. This bike is being
designed (and tooled) so that additional units can be made after the
first three, assuming that somebody will actually want one.
The area of most concern at this point, is with the amount of un-sprung
mass in the front. The 350 is about 10 lbs. more than a conventional
bike. I think this may be the cause of the frontend chatter. Any
feedback in this specific area would be greatly appreciated. I will try
to post updates from time to time as to my progress.
Julian Farnam
A-N-D Vehicles
andbike@pacbell.net
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #829
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Tuesday, November 24 1998 Volume 01 : Number 830
1. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis 64 mile UK wheelie record
2. Br69br69br@aol.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Greetings and update
3. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Greetings and update
4. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Real characters
5. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Shrinkage
6. Craig Kenfield Subj: MC-Chassis Porting/Flowing heads
7. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Porting/Flowing heads
8. Johnayleng@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis changing rake
9. Johnayleng@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis changing rake
10. geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. ) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Porting/Flowing heads
11. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis changing rake
12. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: FFEs and dive
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:59:07 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis 64 mile UK wheelie record
TUNT ace Jumpin' Jake Semtex kept his front wheel in the air for 64
miles to set a new UK distance wheelie record. Semtex, real name Jeff
Sansom, from Ripley, Derbys, set the amazing record on his modified
Honda CR500 moto crosser at Bruntingthorpe proving ground, Leics, last
week. Semtex, 36, is now preparing to tackle the 205-mile record, set
by Japanese rider Yasuki Kudo in 1991.
He couldn't get close to it in the chilly temperatures and high winds
of the British winter but he did shatter the old UK record of 25 miles
- - set by the late Dave Taylor on the Isle of Man in 1978.
"My hands were frozen stiff after about 60 miles," said Semtex.
"The vibration from the bike and the wind completely numbed my
fingers," he added, disappointed that he hadn't come closer to the
world mark.
Semtex prepared for his one-wheel marathon for over a year.
He had to develop his own hydraulic system to keep the front wheel
spinning while in the air. That helps keep the bike stable - vital for
long-distance wheelie wonder runs.
And Semtex's team spent months perfecting their "in-flight" refuelling
techniques.
Semtex rides as close as he can to a moving truck and keeps the bike as
steady as possible to allow his mechanic to lean out and fill the
CR500's fuel tank.
Semtex is as keen as ever to go for the world record when the weather
improves.
He said: "We'll launch another attempt next summer. "We've learned a
lot from this attempt - which I could not have done without MCN's help
in arranging the circuit."
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:03:08 EST
From: Br69br69br@aol.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Greetings and update
Can someone tell me the address of Michael Moore's page? I'm curious about
those forkless pics.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:44:08 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Greetings and update
www.eurospares.com
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Br69br69br@aol.com wrote:
>Can someone tell me the address of Michael Moore's page? I'm curious about
>those forkless pics.
>
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:00:36 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Real characters
Ian said,
<<
a character named Bib Stillwell in his late 70's
( was actually CEO of Learjet at one point ) drove his irreplacable
Repco-Brabham Formula.1.
>>
What a character, I remember watching him racing Holdens in production
racing around the old Mallala circuit in SA. Definately a looney of the
first order.
It's great to hear that he's still going strong.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:38:12 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Shrinkage
> I've seen reference to "shrink rulers" that are measuring scales that
> read in standard units, but the units are actually spaced apart
> according to the different shrink factors. It seems to me that if
> you use a shrink ruler you'd end up with a part that was 1.X times
> bigger in all dimensions, so it seems like the scale function would
> give you the same thing only reading in real units for laying out the
> pattern.
Yep - that's how they do it.
Aluminium and Magnesium are set at 1.3% shrinkage - Magnesium
has a higher coefficent of contraction but also a lower melting
point - the 2 balance out.
Brass & stainless steel are up to 3% but vary greatly depending on
composition.
Contraction is the same in all directions but the skill of a pattern
maker/designer is in getting the wall thicknesses such that the
cooling doesn't cause cracks , cold shuts, draws etc etc.
The foundary has to work hand in hand with the patternmaker as
well - setting the feeds and vents from a complex part is a black
art - my V8 block ( which I cast in one piece ) being a case in
point.
So yes - can can just scale it but using a shrink ruler will be
easier than reading a heap of 356.78mm type dimensions - not
a problem on a CNC - but you get tired of it doing it manually.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:36:45 -0600
From: Craig Kenfield
Subject: MC-Chassis Porting/Flowing heads
Once again I seem to find myself with a question that's not about chassis
design but didn't seem too inappropriate for the list...
I'm getting the urge to try some mild porting on my latest project. I've
got guidelines to follow by someone who's done a lot of work on similar
parts, but I have some questions on flow testing.
I won't have access to a flowbench specifically designed for this, but I
will have access to a flowstand designed to test exhaust system
backpressures. My question is, does it make any difference if I am blowing
the air through the intake as compared to pulling the air through? (I'm
under the impression that a typical flowbench sucks the air through the
head/cylinder on intake) Seems to me this should work fine for an A/B
comparison. After all, if the heads were being used on an engine with a
blower, this is what would be happening anyway, right?
The plan is to assemble the intake manifold, head, and cylinder, then hook
the manifold up to the stand and take flow/pressure drop measurements
throughout a range of valve lift. For the exhaust, hook the cylinder to the
stand and blow out through the exhaust port. (In each case the outlet from
the pump would match the diameter of whatever it's connected to)
I'm curious to see how much of a difference some simple mods would make,
and if I can come up with a couple scrap heads it shouldn't really cost
much to find out.
I would also think these tests could indicate if rockers with a different
ratio should be used to get more lift, as an alternative to going with a
custom cam.
Does this sound reasonable? (Now that I've written it down I'm wondering if
the flowstand I want to use is capable of flowing such low volumes of air
accurately. I might have to figure out a way to bleed off some flow
upstream of the instrumentation)
- -Craig
P.S. Anyone got any ideas/examples of handy-dandy home built flow benches?
I might have to look in the archives for the posts on dynos too...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:06:42 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Porting/Flowing heads
Craig,
I am NOT a Flow port specialist, but I have had a few heads
ported/flow-ported and taken about 10 various carbs to be flow tested
(watched) and actually ported and then flow tested some of my own heads and
even built my own flow-bench from magazine articles and a shop vac. And
then used it for testing/porting/more testing! ETC. ETC.. So that is the
limit of my experience. I do know that the atmosphere is actually pushing
the air into your cylinder past your intake valves, just like you plan to
do. IF you bleed off pressure prior to the port/valve, you will have even
more difficulty calibrating the system. Do NOT do both the intake and
exhaust valves at the same time, push through the intake and out the
cylinder bore. You MUST duplicate the approximate bore of the cylinder in
order to simulate the effects of the cylinder walls on flow. In order to do
the exhaust ports, push into the cylinder and out the exhaust ports. It
actually takes quite a bit of pressure to flow larger heads like 600
Thumpers with 4-valves. You may be just fine depending on the pressure that
you push. Include the carb and even the airbox if you are going to run one.
One of the set-ups that we tested was
head/intake-valve/port/manifold/carb/filter. Use clay to prototype port
shape changes.
Understand that ALL measurements on the flow bench do not equate to
beneficial changes in power. There are limitations to what the flow bench
can tell you. Generally, flow improvements can be equated to twice the
actual power improvement. 10% flow gain for intake and exhaust, will be
ABOUT 5% hp improvement (just a rule of thumb). Intake improvements seem to
be easier to get in some systems.
Hope this helps.
Jim
"Swiss"
Subject: MC-Chassis Porting/Flowing heads
>I won't have access to a flowbench specifically designed for this, but I
>will have access to a flowstand designed to test exhaust system
>backpressures. My question is, does it make any difference if I am blowing
>the air through the intake as compared to pulling the air through? (I'm
>under the impression that a typical flowbench sucks the air through the
>head/cylinder on intake) Seems to me this should work fine for an A/B
>comparison.
>The plan is to assemble the intake manifold, head, and cylinder, then hook
>the manifold up to the stand and take flow/pressure drop measurements
>throughout a range of valve lift. For the exhaust, hook the cylinder to the
>stand and blow out through the exhaust port. (In each case the outlet from
>the pump would match the diameter of whatever it's connected to)
>
>I'm curious to see how much of a difference some simple mods would make,
>and if I can come up with a couple scrap heads it shouldn't really cost
>much to find out.
>I would also think these tests could indicate if rockers with a different
>ratio should be used to get more lift, as an alternative to going with a
>custom cam.
>
>Does this sound reasonable? (Now that I've written it down I'm wondering if
>the flowstand I want to use is capable of flowing such low volumes of air
>accurately. I might have to figure out a way to bleed off some flow
>upstream of the instrumentation)
>
>-Craig
>
>P.S. Anyone got any ideas/examples of handy-dandy home built flow benches?
>I might have to look in the archives for the posts on dynos too...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 00:37:24 EST
From: Johnayleng@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis changing rake
I am getting ready to do some mods to a 1975 H1 Kaw 500 frame for vintage
racing. And I was wondering if there is a formula to figure the trail change
when changing the rake. The stock rake is 27 degrees with 108mm (4.3") of
trail. I want to reduce the rake to 25 degrees to reduce trail and wheelbase.
Thanks in advance,
John Aylor NM
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 00:38:08 EST
From: Johnayleng@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis changing rake
I am getting ready to do some mods to a 1975 H1 Kaw 500 frame for vintage
racing. And I was wondering if there is a formula to figure the trail change
when changing the rake. The stock rake is 27 degrees with 108mm (4.3") of
trail. I want to reduce the rake to 25 degrees to reduce trail and wheelbase.
Thanks in advance,
John Aylor NM
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:13:39 GMT
From: geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. )
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Porting/Flowing heads
On Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:36:45 -0600, you wrote:
>Once again I seem to find myself with a question that's not about chassis
>design but didn't seem too inappropriate for the list...
>
>
>I'm getting the urge to try some mild porting on my latest project. I've
>got guidelines to follow by someone who's done a lot of work on similar
>parts, but I have some questions on flow testing.
Get yourself "practical gas flow" by John Dalton, available at an
Amazon.com outlet near you. How to build a flowbench from a vacuum
cleaner and use it. I also have some plans from Hot Rod mag somewhere
as well.
Geoff
- --
Radar detector FAQ, Forte Agent automation FAQ, bathroom fan FAQ
and THE WORLDS BEST CHRISTMAS PUDDING RECIPE
are at http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/
REMOVE "DELETEME" SPAMBLOCKER FROM ADDRESS TO REPLYTO USENET POSTINGS
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:39:20 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis changing rake
Johnayleng@aol.com wrote:
> I am getting ready to do some mods to a 1975 H1 Kaw 500 frame for vintage
> racing. And I was wondering if there is a formula to figure the trail change
> when changing the rake. The stock rake is 27 degrees with 108mm (4.3") of
> trail. I want to reduce the rake to 25 degrees to reduce trail and wheelbase.
What size is the front tire on one of those? 3.50x19?
Assuming a 13 inch wheel radius, 2 degrees * 1/57 radian/degree *
13 inch is about 0.45 in. This is the length of 2
degrees of the wheel circumference, which is a rough approximation
to what the actual change in trail would be.
A scale drawing based on measured wheel radius and fork
offset would give a more precise answer.
Do you plan rigidity upgrades also?
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:33:29 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: FFEs and dive
AR asked:
<<
I need a few questions answering 'cos although I can see many
benefits and have my own theories as to why it works.................
Q:Why do front swing arms seperate the braking and steering forces?
Q:Do they dive a lot less than conventional tele and if so why?
Q:Can anyone send me any diagramatic pictures, particularly of the ones
involving parallelograms stuff, preferably with a few explanations?
>>
You'll find answers to these questions on the web site below. Go to
Articles and there is one about dive and another reviewing various types of
FFE.
Also in the photos section there is a small collection of pics. of several
FFEs.
<<
Q:Are they expensive to produce and if not, why aren't they being used
much
>>
If you're talking mass production, it is hard to see that they should be
more expensive. However, if the rest of the chassis is designed as a whole
taking into account the different distribution of front end loads then it
should be possible to make a cheaper bike overall.
There are many reasons why they aren't used much which have nothing to do
with cost or performance.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #830
******************************
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Most recent update: 30 January 1998
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