Motorcycle Chassis Design Digest #811-820
MC-Chassis-Dgst Monday, November 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 811
1. David Weinshenker Subj: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
2. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
3. "Fabian Cipollone" Subj: MC-Chassis Argentine mechanics
4. "LTSNIDER" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
5. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
6. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
7. Gecos Gigolo Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
8. "Ed Biafore" Subj: MC-Chassis WTB: GSXR1100 Forks and wheels
9. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #808
10. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
11. Zachary Eyler-Walker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
12. "Tom Melesky" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
13. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis Fascot frame
14. Gecos Gigolo Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 15:07:51 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
So I'm thinking of buying a set of oxy-acet welding
equipment... lightweight "aircraft style" torch,
selection of tips, hoses, & regulators.
Any advice welcome... brands/
features/etc. to seek or avoid?
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 15:30:26 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
> So I'm thinking of buying a set of oxy-acet welding equipment...
> lightweight "aircraft style" torch, selection of tips, hoses, &
> regulators. Any advice welcome... brands/ features/etc. to seek or
> avoid?
Hello Dave,
You'll do fine with either Lincoln or Victor. My Sears Craftsman
torch is made by Lincoln. I think there is a difference in that
Lincoln tips are short and screw into the part that screws on to the
mixing chamber, where the Victor tips I've seen included the screw-on
part. This made the Victor tips more expensive to get, being they
were a more complicated part.
You can get some very small and lightweight handles (Victor Jr?) and
that would be worth looking into.
I've got a single-stage regulator, but have been told the two-stage
regulator will give more precise metering as the tank pressure drops.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, San Francisco CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American distributor of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
Host of 7 m/c email lists (details on the web site)
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:47:37 -0300
From: "Fabian Cipollone"
Subject: MC-Chassis Argentine mechanics
Hello to all the members of the list :
My name is Fabian . I need technical information of the Honda NX 650.
Somebody possesses the data ?
I have a problem with the pumb of oil and carburator Jet ( main jet, low
jet, pilot, etc )
thanks to all
Fabian Cipollone
Monte Buey ( Cordoba )
Argentina
TE:71123
chipo@southlink.com.ar
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:42:31 +0000
From: "LTSNIDER"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
The aircraft sets I've seen are excellent for light work, thinwall
tubing, etc. read: aircraft afflications. Too small for much of what
you'll want to do in your shop. Buy the regular size and you won't be
sorry.
David Weinshenker wrote:
So I'm thinking of buying a set of oxy-acet welding
equipment... lightweight "aircraft style" torch,
selection of tips, hoses, & regulators.
Any advice welcome... brands/
features/etc. to seek or avoid?
- -dave w
LYNN SNIDER
"If at first you don't succeed, Your skydiving days are over."
Boise, Idaho
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:01:29 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
> The aircraft sets I've seen are excellent for light work, thinwall
> tubing, etc. read: aircraft afflications. Too small for much of what
> you'll want to do in your shop. Buy the regular size and you won't be
> sorry.
If you can't cut it with snips it is probably too heavy for your
motorcycle chassis. I very rarely use anything bigger than a 0 or 1
tip on my Craftsman/Harris (may have said Lincoln earlier) torch when
building a frame. Actually, I can't think of anything at the moment
that would need a bigger tip than either of those.
Then again, perhaps you are going to be building trailers or stock
cars, or maybe working on farm machinery?
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 23:04:12 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
Michael Moore wrote:
> Then again, perhaps you are going to be building trailers or stock
> cars, or maybe working on farm machinery?
More like expansion chambers and subframe tubing,
and similar light-gage work...
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 02:30:25 -0500
From: Gecos Gigolo
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
> So I'm thinking of buying a set of oxy-acet welding
> equipment... lightweight "aircraft style" torch,
> selection of tips, hoses, & regulators.
> Any advice welcome... brands/
> features/etc. to seek or avoid?
If you're going to be doing only lightweight brazing and gas welding
(no use of a cutting torch) then look for as small a torch as
possible. I can't name brands, but I've seen a few at the welding
shops that are perfect for small work, I don't think they can handle
cutting heads, but I might be wrong. The larger (standard size)
torches are bulky and heavy if you're just doing small work. I only
use my torch for brazing and I've often longed for a smaller one. I
don't think I've ever used a tip larger than a #2, so the larger torch
is wasted.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 02:35:59 -0700
From: "Ed Biafore"
Subject: MC-Chassis WTB: GSXR1100 Forks and wheels
I'm looking for a someone with or who has a source for a GSXR1100 fully
adjustable upside down fork everything from the trees forward and a rear
wheel from same bike. I know I need something around '91, because I've seen
one hung on a Sporty before.
Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200 Sportster
Glendale, AZ
http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:38:01 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #808
>In article <3.0.1.16.19981106174452.11f7493e@uranus.easynet.co.uk>,
>uranus writes
>>Speaking of FFEs, my local bike shop has now decided to become an Italjet
>>dealer and now has an Italjet "Dragster" in the window, complete with fully
>>functional monoshock hub centre steering, space-frame chassis and pivoting
>>engine rear suspension. £2,495 for 125ccs.
>
>There's talk of a 180 Italjet dragster coming soon, and I believe
>Malossi do tuning kits for the 125 twin. This is one seriously trick
>looking scoot. I love it.
It's true about the 180 Dragster. I was at Italajet dealer in Austin TX -
Mototek, I think - and saw a brochure for the entire line of products. The
owner was telling me that they are actually quite exciting to ride -
they'll throttle wheelie and brakie. I'm really not a scooter fan, but the
Dragster model was far too cool for school! They also have a line of
retro-looking scooters complete with faux burlwood dash panels.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:45:46 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
>Michael Moore wrote:
>> Then again, perhaps you are going to be building trailers or stock
>> cars, or maybe working on farm machinery?
>
>More like expansion chambers and subframe tubing,
>and similar light-gage work...
>
>-dave w
Anyway, I'd recommend SGMAW (stick arc) welding for trailers and heavy
equipment. While it is possible to work on such large projects with O/A,
the cost of the gas would be prohibitive.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:12:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Zachary Eyler-Walker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Alan Lapp wrote:
> Anyway, I'd recommend SGMAW (stick arc) welding for trailers and heavy
> equipment. While it is possible to work on such large projects with O/A,
> the cost of the gas would be prohibitive.
>
> Al
> level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
I absolutely agree with that. Not only do you use gas at an amazing rate
welding on big stuff, but it takes all day. For welding on anything of
reasonably heavy gauge where you don't necessarily care how beautiful the
weld is, stick welding is the way to go.
So, go for as small a torch as you can get away with, but unless you've
got a plasma cutter lying around somewhere I'd make sure the torch kit
comes with a cutting head.
Sorry I can't give specific brand information, but I don't have first hand
ownership experience of this kind of stuff; I've always just used the
equipment at shops I've had access to.
Good luck,
Zach
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:53:16 -0600
From: "Tom Melesky"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
In a similar vein, does anyone have any experience with the 'new' small,
relatively inexpensive [$200 - $600] wire fed welders?
The frame for my racing Ascot broke in two, thankfully while removing the
motor and not on the track. Although I'm having a new frame constructed I
still find I need something welded up on a fairly routine basis, and an
tired of the trip across town [Dallas - Ft. Worth] to the one welder I have
found I can trust. I'm planning on running two Ascot's next season, the new
frame with single-shock for Clubman and Lightweight Twins and any SOS AHRMA
races I can get to, and an Ascot frame for the Vintage classes.
I'm interested in anyone's views of functionality vs price, and how
hard/easy is it to start doing your own welding.
Tom Melesky
'98 Ducati ST2
'84 Laverda RGS 1000
'82 Honda Ascot [aka 'Fascot' the race bike]
- -----Original Message-----
From: Zachary Eyler-Walker
To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
>On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Alan Lapp wrote:
>> Anyway, I'd recommend SGMAW (stick arc) welding for trailers and heavy
>> equipment. While it is possible to work on such large projects with O/A,
>> the cost of the gas would be prohibitive.
>>
>> Al
>> level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
>
>I absolutely agree with that. Not only do you use gas at an amazing rate
>welding on big stuff, but it takes all day. For welding on anything of
>reasonably heavy gauge where you don't necessarily care how beautiful the
>weld is, stick welding is the way to go.
>
>So, go for as small a torch as you can get away with, but unless you've
>got a plasma cutter lying around somewhere I'd make sure the torch kit
>comes with a cutting head.
>
>Sorry I can't give specific brand information, but I don't have first hand
>ownership experience of this kind of stuff; I've always just used the
>equipment at shops I've had access to.
>
>Good luck,
>
> Zach
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:00:46 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis Fascot frame
> motor and not on the track. Although I'm having a new frame constructed I
> found I can trust. I'm planning on running two Ascot's next season, the new
> frame with single-shock for Clubman and Lightweight Twins and any SOS AHRMA
> races I can get to, and an Ascot frame for the Vintage classes.
Hello Tom,
How about some details of the new frame when you get a chance? Did
you design the frame or is the constructor doing that?
Clue us in.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:19:12 -0500
From: Gecos Gigolo
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
> In a similar vein, does anyone have any experience with the 'new' small,
> relatively inexpensive [$200 - $600] wire fed welders?
>
> The frame for my racing Ascot broke in two, thankfully while removing the
> motor and not on the track. Although I'm having a new frame constructed I
> still find I need something welded up on a fairly routine basis, and an
> tired of the trip across town [Dallas - Ft. Worth] to the one welder I have
> found I can trust. I'm planning on running two Ascot's next season, the new
> frame with single-shock for Clubman and Lightweight Twins and any SOS AHRMA
> races I can get to, and an Ascot frame for the Vintage classes.
>
> I'm interested in anyone's views of functionality vs price, and how
> hard/easy is it to start doing your own welding.
MIG welding is easy, and it's easy to learn as long as you're not
doing anything really critical like thin sheet metal or thin wall
tubing. You should be able to judge for yourself whether or not you're
qualified to do any particular job, just ask yourself "Is it ok if this
job is done by someone who doesn't know what they're doing?".
The advantage of MIG is that any idiot can stick two pieces of metal
together with no surface prep (think of it as a glue gun with metal
glue), but if you know what you're doing then you can do quality work
too.
I'd steer clear of the gasless welders (this takes care of the bottom
half of the $200-$600 price range). I used a cheapo bottom of the line
gas-ready MIG (probably a Northern Hydraulics special), it lasted ok
with my abusing it's rated duty cycle, but when I went to a Hobart
Handler I could really notice the improvement. I've recently seen the
Handler for $525, it might come even cheaper. It's a good unit for
small shop use, portable, 110V, can easily weld 1/4"+ metal, and gives
a consistant weld. The one thing I've noticed is that the older
torches were more durable than the newer ones, so if you can find a
used one then you might actually get a better machine. I don't know
when they made the switch from the old style to the new style, I've
noticed it in a ~8 year old machine vs. a ~3 year old one.
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #811
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Monday, November 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 812
1. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: T shirts
2. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Welders
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: T shirts
4. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Welders
5. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
6. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
7. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis 2wd trials bike
8. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis mig vs tig vs bronze welding
9. Andrew Fairbank Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Welders
10. Gecos Gigolo Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Welders
11. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis mig vs tig vs bronze welding
12. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Welders
13. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
14. bsags@isat.com (David Kath) Subj: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:22:57 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: T shirts
Michael,
Probably too late now, but the following pic. would have been worthy of
consideration.
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos/gallery/Misc/Funny02.gif
Tony Foale.
España / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:43:53 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Welders
> The advantage of MIG is that any idiot can stick two pieces of metal
> together with no surface prep (think of it as a glue gun with metal
> glue), but if you know what you're doing then you can do quality work
> too.
One problem with a MIG is that a weld can look perfect but is
actually just sitting on the surface.
> I'd steer clear of the gasless welders
Agreed.
It's a good unit for
> small shop use, portable, 110V,
110V ! How do you guys weld with 110 V ? We have 240 V as our
household supply and that is borderline for welders - you must
have to shake the electrons out of the last foot of cable.
Cheers IAN
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:45:01 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: T shirts
> Probably too late now, but the following pic. would have been worthy of
> consideration.
Hello Tony,
I may consider that for a personal shirt - I don't know how I'd
contact Beale to get permission to use it for a list t-shirt being
printed for financial gain.
I'm also thinking about having a small batch of shirts made (if this
whole shirt thing doesn't prove too bothersome) with one of the nice
drawings that I was sent of the NSU FF. That stuff was old enough
that I think I could probably swipe the photo without fearing many
bad things happening. Don't know about that being a list T-shirt -
maybe just to a select few that would be interested.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:47:01 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Welders
Hello Ian,
> One problem with a MIG is that a weld can look perfect but is
> actually just sitting on the surface.
I've done that with oxy/acet too - practice, practice, practice . .
> 110V ! How do you guys weld with 110 V ? We have 240 V as our
Verrrry slowly.
Have you taken a poll of the local HD cruiser bros to see how many of
them will be wanting to switch to V8 powerplants in the near future?
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:51:57 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
Tom asked: "In a similar vein, does anyone have any experience with the
'new' small, relatively inexpensive [$200 - $600] wire fed welders?"
I was also looking at low cost MIG welders. Many of them have severe
limitations like the trigger on the gun does not turn off the arc, just
turns off the wire. And the low cost power supplies did not have as
smooth an arc as the more expensive units. And, all the 110v units are
suspect.
I ended up spending a little more and bought a Millermatic 185. By
shopping around, you should find this for about $950-$1025 (at least I
did). Very smooth arc, plenty of power, and has an optional dedicated
spool gun that will allow you to easily(*) weld aluminum. It is a very
nice machine, and will definitely do everything you will want
*Relative phrase.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 17:03:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
- -> The advantage of MIG is that any idiot can stick two pieces of metal
- -> together with no surface prep (think of it as a glue gun with metal
- -> glue)
Over heeere!
I have found that grinding the 'skin' off of hot rolled steel will give
me a much cleaner weld, though. Whenever I care about the strength of a
weld, as opposed to just sticking stuff together, I grind to fresh metal
everywhere I expect the bead to go.
Probably not much use for hot rolled structural steel on motorcycle
chassis, but I used it for my jib crane and the nifty swing-up tire rack
over the door, that swings down to chest height for loading and then
back up over the door out of the way.
==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:29:33 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis 2wd trials bike
Just spotted this URL on a 2WD trials bike on the trials list:
http://www.trials.net/bikes/2by2/2by2.html
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 15:33:01 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis mig vs tig vs bronze welding
Michael, I seem to recall you saying that most of your frames were
bronze welded with oxy like harris spondon etc. Also that you've done
fusion welding was easier to make look good and still fail.
Am I once again the victim of my sieve like memory?
______________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 18:48:21 -0500
From: Andrew Fairbank
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Welders
Ian Drysdale wrote:
> > The advantage of MIG is that any idiot can stick two pieces of metal
> > together with no surface prep (think of it as a glue gun with metal
> > glue), but if you know what you're doing then you can do quality work
> > too.
>
> One problem with a MIG is that a weld can look perfect but is
> actually just sitting on the surface.
>
>
My suggestion to someone who was just starting out welding and who's
projects ran to
3/16" thick or less short beads would definitely be to buy a small
oxy-acetylene torch. Since the
welding proceeds slowly you can see what you are doing . Practice alot and
cut those
welds apart so you can grade your progress. When you become proficient at
gas welding
all of the other welding processes will be easier to master.
Starting out with a MIG welder is like learning to ride a bicycle with
training wheels.
The only problem with buying a small outfit is that they usually come with
cheap
regulators, which require frequent readjustment. I'd go to a welding
supplier and ask
their advice as to the best setup. The difference between using a small
torch and a
bigger one is like using a pencil rather than a crayon. It's much easier to
be precise
with the little torch.
Just my 2 cents;
- -Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:41:26 -0500
From: Gecos Gigolo
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Welders
> > It's a good unit for small shop use, portable, 110V,
>
> 110V ! How do you guys weld with 110 V ? We have 240 V as our
> household supply and that is borderline for welders - you must
> have to shake the electrons out of the last foot of cable.
I dunno, maybe our volts are bigger? Do you use whitworth volts?
I suspect you just have higher standards, thicker metal, or worse
wiring. I've never had any problems, and I regularly weld 1/4 steel,
although 99% of the time it's around .040.
> I was also looking at low cost MIG welders. Many of them have severe
> limitations like the trigger on the gun does not turn off the arc, just
> turns off the wire. And the low cost power supplies did not have as
> smooth an arc as the more expensive units. And, all the 110v units are
> suspect.
You have to got to a pretty low end welder to get one that won't turn
the arc off, even my old el-cheapo "Turbo MIG 145" or whatever used to
turn the gas, wire, and arc off when you let off the switch.
I've only used a larger MIG once (A 300A Miller I think), it
definately worked well but the torch and cable were a lot heavier
making it more tiring and less maneuverable. A machine that big is
probably an extreme case, but it's worth keeping in mind.
> I have found that grinding the 'skin' off of hot rolled steel will give
> me a much cleaner weld, though. Whenever I care about the strength of a
> weld, as opposed to just sticking stuff together, I grind to fresh metal
> everywhere I expect the bead to go.
I use an extra-heavy wire wheel in a bench grinder to remove scale. I
usually use a belt sander for getting down to bare metal, but hot
rolled flat stock is usually slightly concave on one side, making it
difficult to get an even grind with the belt sander.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:42:49 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis mig vs tig vs bronze welding
> Michael, I seem to recall you saying that most of your frames were
> bronze welded with oxy like harris spondon etc. Also that you've done
> fusion welding was easier to make look good and still fail.
> Am I once again the victim of my sieve like memory?
Hello Yousuf,
Yes, I veglia recall that. One of my first gas fusion welding
projects was a 2-1 pipe for the Laverda. Looked real nice until I
bumped it against the workbench and several sections fell off.
To recap - with the bronze weld (braze weld) it is pretty easy to do
a visual inspection that will let you sleep relatively soundly at
night. If too cold, you can see the bronze wasn't "tinning" next to
the bead, and if too hot it will either run out flat or look a bit
burned or like it has been bubbling.
The TIG welder is handy for sticking thin bits to thick bits. Gas
fusion is going to hold up to the heat on an exhaust pipe better
than the braze will (at least on the really hot bits), though the
collars that go on the end of the pipe that fits up next to the head
are often welded on the manifold face and then brazed on the back
side
As with so much of this stuff, you try to pick a method that you have
developed some skill with - and hope that it is remotely appropriate
to the job at hand.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 17:50:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Welders
- -> > One problem with a MIG is that a weld can look perfect but is >
- -> actually just sitting on the surface.
Sure, if you turn the power way down and just lay on some wire.
Welding thin stuff can be a problem, at least for me.
With stuff .090" thick or better, I just turn the power up until the
arc makes a visible ditch in the work, nice and bright hot, and put the
wire there. At least with my small Century welder, the optimum weld
seems to be with the most heat I can use without burning off the wire or
blowing holes in the work.
A more experienced welder might not have that problem, but I've learned
there are sharp limits to how low and slow I can go with the MIG.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:37:38 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
Get the lightest you can find. I find that my wrists get tired from
supporting the hoses.
Ray
- ----------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:02:53 -0800
From: bsags@isat.com (David Kath)
Subject: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
Gent... One of our local welding/fab shops has recently installed a
pantagraph plasma cutting system. I was amazed at the precision "demo"
cut items on display. The operator merely places a felt tip pen drawing
on the pattern table, a scanner follows thr line, and the cutting head
follows the scanner. PFM eh? My question: how does a plasma cutter work?
Not the pantagraph part, but the actual cutting system.
dave - NV
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #812
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Tuesday, November 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 813
1. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
2. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
3. Gecos Gigolo Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
4. "Frank Camillieri" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
5. Les Sharp Subj: MC-Chassis "Steel"
6. Dick Brewster Subj: Re: MC-Chassis "Steel"
7. Ian Drysdale Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #812
8. Ian Drysdale Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #812
9. Gecos Gigolo Subj: Re: MC-Chassis "Steel"
10. Michael Andrusiewicz Subj: MC-Chassis Ditch Welding!
11. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
12. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
13. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:14:27 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
David Kath wrote:
> My question: how does a plasma cutter work?
> Not the pantagraph part, but the actual cutting system.
Forces a rapid stream of gas through an electric arc and
then out a nozzle, I think... I don't know much detail.
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:42:10 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
There are also outfits that do cutting with very high pressure
waterjets. I've only heard about this, and don't know the details of
how thick/fast the cuts will go, or what kinds of materials.
You can also find people that do laser cutting too.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:56:43 -0500
From: Gecos Gigolo
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
> Gent... One of our local welding/fab shops has recently installed a
> pantagraph plasma cutting system. I was amazed at the precision "demo"
> cut items on display. The operator merely places a felt tip pen drawing
> on the pattern table, a scanner follows thr line, and the cutting head
> follows the scanner. PFM eh? My question: how does a plasma cutter work?
> Not the pantagraph part, but the actual cutting system.
They're incredibly simple. A stream of plain air is shot past an
electric arc. The air is turned into plasma (plasma is another state
of matter, IE solid, liquid, gas, plasma) as it goes through the arc.
The energy that was used to turn the air into plasma comes back when
the plasma turns back into air as it cools, and it will probably cool
when it comes in contact with whatever you're cutting, so the heat
goes into the thing you're cutting. The detail of the cut is as fine
as the stream of air, and you can get the stream of air pretty
focused. It works on almost anything, and there is no electricity on
the thing you're cutting, so you don't have to ground it or worry
about getting shocked. No fancy gasses involved, just plain air.
That's slightly simplified, but not much. I'm surprised Tesla didn't
build one a hundred years ago.
You can buy small 110V units in the $800-$1200 range. The $1200 range
gets you a pretty good one, up to the 3/8" range. When cutting sheet
metal with one you can actually "sketch" with moderate speed, much
faster than with a cutting torch, and a lot less heat involved.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:11:36 -0500
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
> There are also outfits that do cutting with very high pressure
> waterjets. I've only heard about this, and don't know the details of
> how thick/fast the cuts will go, or what kinds of materials.
>
> You can also find people that do laser cutting too.
Michael,
Abrasive waterjet machines can cut just about anything from wood to stone.
They are pretty fast on thin stuff and the newest can cut as thick as several
inches. We are trying to justify buying one for our shop but the price was
$100,000.00 the last time I checked.
Lasers are nice but cost even more and are quite expensive to run. We send
out a few laser jobs to a friend. His machine cost $250,000.00.
Frank Camillieri
Chester, NH
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:34:08 +0800
From: Les Sharp
Subject: MC-Chassis "Steel"
Hi,
If you wouldn't mind looking through your various databases again to
come up with what this is I'd relly appreciate it.
Cu 0.021
C 0.442
Si 0.190
Mn 0.716
P 0.020
S 0.012
Ni <0.030
Cr 0.014
Mo <0.002
V <0.015
Any help most welcome!
- --
Best regards, Les
"Eye pierce heaven, foot stick in mud"
Planet Gearhead: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/conten~1.htm
Orange Wings: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/wings
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:17:35 -0800
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis "Steel"
Les Sharp wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> If you wouldn't mind looking through your various databases again to
> come up with what this is I'd relly appreciate it.
>
> Cu 0.021
> C 0.442
> Si 0.190
> Mn 0.716
> P 0.020
> S 0.012
> Ni <0.030
> Cr 0.014
> Mo <0.002
> V <0.015
>
> Any help most welcome!
>
> --
> Best regards, Les
It looks like SAE 1045. The C and Mn levels fit, and the Si is
level kind of medium but within limits. the other elements are
trace level. Source SAE J403
Dick
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:00:39 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #812
> follows the scanner. PFM eh? My question: how does a plasma cutter work?
> Not the pantagraph part, but the actual cutting system.
> dave - NV
It's a TIG version of an oxy-acetylene torch. An arc heats
the base metal and a focused blast of compressed air converts
the metal to a metal oxide ( and blows it away )just as an
oxy does.
Advantages are precision and negligible running costs.
Cheers IAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:39:00 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #812
> Just spotted this URL on a 2WD trials bike on the trials list:
>
> http://www.trials.net/bikes/2by2/2by2.html
As you all know - I have more than a passing interest in 2WD's -
this trials bike seems to be nicely made but doesn't seem to
break any new ground technically. The Sunshine Yamaha based MX
bike of a few years ago used pretty well the same principle.
I think it had 4 chains driving the front wheel instead of 3 used
on this trials bike - but had the same sort of sissor action link
to drive the front wheel.
My friends CR 500 is ( in my opinion ) a much better job - he uses
only 2 chains to drive the front wheel - letting the top triple
clamp 'swing' fore and aft and 'anchoring' the whole front end with
a radius arm that comes up from the gearbox sprocket to the top of
the sliders. ( Predating but similar to the BMW telelever FE )
He had to cut the flywheel rotor off to tuck the drive in close
enough to the motor and it has been touched up with a porting tool -
suffice to say - it is the wildest thing I have ever ridden.
He is a total nutter - he also has a blown 454 in a WW 2 Bren Gun
carrier. ( A tracked vehicle like an armored personnel carrier )
He uses it in mud races.
Cheers IAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:46:21 -0500
From: Gecos Gigolo
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis "Steel"
> If you wouldn't mind looking through your various databases again to
> come up with what this is I'd relly appreciate it.
>
> Cu 0.021
> C 0.442
> Si 0.190
> Mn 0.716
> P 0.020
> S 0.012
> Ni <0.030
> Cr 0.014
> Mo <0.002
> V <0.015
It could be 1040, 1042, 1043, 1045, or 1046. The C is on the high side
for 1040 and 1041, and on the low side for 1045 and 1046. The Mn is on
the low side for 1043 and 1046.
It's got enough Si that it looks like it's trying to be some sort of
alloy, but it's only hope for keeping up that charade is if it's in a
dimly lit bar where you can't see how little Ni and Cr it's got.
Everything but the C, Si, and Mn are in trace quantities.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:23:58 -0400
From: Michael Andrusiewicz
Subject: MC-Chassis Ditch Welding!
Hi All,
When are we going to break from traditional welding techniques here?
Who's brave enough to venture into structural adhesives for frame
building? Ditch the welders! The advantages would be to eliminate all
those nasty heat problems (distortion, annealing, poss.
embrittlement...).
Some aerospace adhesives have been shown to be stronger than parent
metal...at least as far as alum. sheetmetal is concerned. So an
adhesive bonded monocoque chassis should be certainly do-able!
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:12:38 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
>Gent... One of our local welding/fab shops has recently installed a
>pantagraph plasma cutting system. I was amazed at the precision "demo"
>cut items on display. The operator merely places a felt tip pen drawing
>on the pattern table, a scanner follows thr line, and the cutting head
>follows the scanner. PFM eh? My question: how does a plasma cutter work?
>Not the pantagraph part, but the actual cutting system.
>dave - NV
Funny you should mention plasma cutters. The local welding supply store
has started carrying a product called 'The Drag-Gun'. Heh. Dragon.
Clever. Anyway, it's a 110 volt plasma cutter, and it's fully
self-contained. It has the compressor built into the unit. The unit will
cut up to 1/4" steel. I'd imagine it would cut slightly thicker aluminum.
The cost of the unit is $750.
They also have a 220 volt unit that will cut much thicker stock, but it's
just under $2K.
I also am interested in the mechanics of a plasma cutter because I have a
TIG welder and a compressor - it seems that I could make an accessory
plasma cutter unit, but this idea may betray my ignorance of how it works.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:16:28 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
>There are also outfits that do cutting with very high pressure
>waterjets. I've only heard about this, and don't know the details of
>how thick/fast the cuts will go, or what kinds of materials.
This type of cutting tool is common in the garment industry, and will cut
an 8" thick stack of material into a shirt ready for stitching in no time
flat. It's all CNC driven just like a plotter. I saw it on the Discovery
channel. They showed a safety lecture to the employees - the instructor
waved a sheet of cardboard under the cutter, and it just fell apart as if
by magic. Very impressive.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:53:58 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
>In a similar vein, does anyone have any experience with the 'new' small,
>relatively inexpensive [$200 - $600] wire fed welders?
>
>The frame for my racing Ascot broke in two, thankfully while removing the
>motor and not on the track. Although I'm having a new frame constructed I
>still find I need something welded up on a fairly routine basis, and an
>tired of the trip across town [Dallas - Ft. Worth] to the one welder I have
>found I can trust. I'm planning on running two Ascot's next season, the new
>frame with single-shock for Clubman and Lightweight Twins and any SOS AHRMA
>races I can get to, and an Ascot frame for the Vintage classes.
>
>I'm interested in anyone's views of functionality vs price, and how
>hard/easy is it to start doing your own welding.
Tom: interesting - I'm restoring an Ascot for my girlfriend - Hawk front
end, Hurricane rear wheel (modern rubber, don'tcha know) and a bunch of
miscelleneous stuff I'm fabricating. Just got the frame and bits back from
the powdercoaters. Verrrrry nice! (BTW, I have the OEM Ascot wheels and
complete front end if you're interested - free to a good home, you pay
shipping.)
I started out with a cheap O/A kit I purchased from Price Club. Although I
saved over $200 compared to a professional unit, I found that getting
replacement parts is difficult. It was quite useful, and I still have
it... sometimes a large flame is the only tool for the job, especially for
annealing aluminum. I did eventually purchase the gas bottles - if you
plan to keep the bottles on hand for over 3 years, it will be cheaper to
buy them rather than leasing. Your choice of bottle size depends on your
use: if portability is key, get small bottles. I don't travel with the
torch, so I chose the largest bottles. If I were to do it again, I'd
probably go with the better quality professional units. However,
understand that is just from the perspective of owning a quality tool
that's a pleasure to use rather than from a functional deficit of the
cheaper units. Also, they do appear in the classifieds in the used tools
section for very reasonable prices. OH! *DO* get back-fire restrictors!!!
They go between the torch and the hose, and prevent the terrifying
possibility of a fire inside the supply hose.
I next purchased a cheap - $400 - consumer 110v MIG welder, again from
Price Club. Fortunately, the gun was made by a known manufacturer - Tweeco
- - and the consumable tips were readily available from the local welding
goods store. (This was simply good luck on my part! I didn't know what to
look for.) I was a bit disapointed with the durability and performance of
the welder. Some of the plastic parts, particularly the wire spool
carrier, broke, and I had to fabricate replacements. (Learn from my
experience - if you build the spool carrier out of metal, be sure to
insulate it from the chassis of the machine!) I found it dificult to get
pretty beads from the unit, but I suspect that was my skill level. I
absolutely loved it for fabricating exhaust systems - very fast!! Both
Lincoln and Miller produce 110v MIG welders, and I guarantee the quality is
superior to the commonly available consumer units. The duty cycle will be
higher as well, but you can expect to pay 30~50% more. If you are
considering a consumer unit, be absolutely sure to purchase one that uses
gas. The flux core wire makes a mess with spatter.
I sold my MIG welder to subsidise the purchase of a TIG welder. I went
with a Lincoln unit - a Square Wave 175. It runs on 230v. I made this
purchase because I wanted to begin fabricating in aluminum. The unit costs
close to $1300 new, and it has proven extremely useful. This unit is a
no-frills device, and puts some demands on the weldor for proper technique.
I must say that the hand skills required are almost identical to gas
welding. The unit is reliable, and I've only invoked the thermal
protection once when welding a long bead on a large aluminum casting. It
is much slower than the MIG, comparable to gas welding.
The best money you will ever spend on welding is training. Our local adult
education program offers welding classes, and I took advantage of it when I
began welding. I am considering taking the advanced course to refine my
skills, particularly for welding aluminum.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #813
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Wednesday, November 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 814
1. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Welders
2. Lauren Subj: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
3. Lauren Subj: Re: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
4. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Ditch Welding!
5. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Ditch Welding!
6. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Plastic fantastic
7. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
8. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
9. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plastic fantastic
10. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Ditch Welding!
11. geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. ) Subj: MC-Chassis Buckley Systems 500 GP bike launched
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:59:55 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Welders
>110V ! How do you guys weld with 110 V ? We have 240 V as our
>household supply and that is borderline for welders - you must
>have to shake the electrons out of the last foot of cable.
Heh. I guess us Yanks have better wire. :)
But seriously, you're right: I'd not expect to build a trailer with a 110
volt MIG welder.
Oh, in my tome on welding equipment, I forgot to mention that the Lincoln
TIG welder I mentioned comes with stick-welding apparatus that works very
nicely.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:24:51 -0800
From: Lauren
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
At 04:37 PM 11/9/98 , you wrote:
>Get the lightest you can find. I find that my wrists get tired from
>supporting the hoses.
>
Ray,
A trick I used when I used to weld (been years and years) is to lay the
hose on top of my forearm and the torch on top of the back of my hand -
kind of like you would hold a pencil rather than a hammer. This works for
TIG and OxyAcetylene, but I don't think it would work for most MIG torches
- - but you can try. This technique gives you a lot more control.
FWIW,
LCB
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:33:11 -0800
From: Lauren
Subject: Re: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
At 10:53 AM 11/10/98 , you wrote:
>I don't travel with the torch, so I chose the largest bottles.
Everybody probably already knows this - but a welder should strictly follow
safety procedures when moving Acetylene gas bottles from location to
location and let the Acetylene settle for a safe time before using the
torch. Some people use a different fuel gas because they travel quite a bit
with their torches and don't want to have to wait for the gas to settle
before they use it.
FWIW,
LCB
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:50:09 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Ditch Welding!
Your ideals are great!
'Just that complexity is not progress.
I have worked with composite structures in aviation and they have a useful place.
Home built aircraft are produced by many amateur like ourselves.
Still, our love of two wheels goes beyond economy of materials from an engineering standpoint. I would never build an all composite bike for my own use, because I couldn't stand to live with it. "Rather the Devil I know"
Welded metal is very rewarding, "A thing of Beauty is a Joy forever"
Stress Skin makes access difficult!
There are several that have gone before us on the composite path, recorded by the sponsor of this list and others. It is just a different topic, not a "us or them" condition.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: Michael Andrusiewicz
> To: Chassis Design
> Subject: MC-Chassis Ditch Welding!
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 6:23 AM
>
> Hi All,
>
> When are we going to break from traditional welding techniques here?
>
> Who's brave enough to venture into structural adhesives for frame
> building? Ditch the welders! The advantages would be to eliminate all
> those nasty heat problems (distortion, annealing, poss.
> embrittlement...).
>
> Some aerospace adhesives have been shown to be stronger than parent
> metal...at least as far as alum. sheetmetal is concerned. So an
> adhesive bonded monocoque chassis should be certainly do-able!
>
> Mike
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:41:23 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Ditch Welding!
On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Michael Andrusiewicz wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>When are we going to break from traditional welding techniques here?
>
>Who's brave enough to venture into structural adhesives for frame
>building? Ditch the welders! The advantages would be to eliminate all
>those nasty heat problems (distortion, annealing, poss.
>embrittlement...).
>
>Some aerospace adhesives have been shown to be stronger than parent
>metal...at least as far as alum. sheetmetal is concerned. So an
>adhesive bonded monocoque chassis should be certainly do-able!
>
>Mike
I believe the original MZ racebike had the tubes "glued" to the S/A mounts, but
they bolted it in on the street bike. To be honest I've not welded before and
the possibility of gluing metal together is quite apealing. Having said that I
will probably learn how to weld and bronze weld my frames, because being a
amateur home builder I don't have the ability (funds) to test appropriatly.
However should any of you have worked on a F-40 and could tell me that for this
grade of steel, use this glue. Well I might be willing to give it a go.
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:01:41 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Plastic fantastic
> When are we going to break from traditional welding techniques here?
>
> Who's brave enough to venture into structural adhesives for frame
> building? Ditch the welders! The advantages would be to eliminate all
> those nasty heat problems (distortion, annealing, poss.
> embrittlement...).
>
> Some aerospace adhesives have been shown to be stronger than parent
> metal...at least as far as alum. sheetmetal is concerned. So an
> adhesive bonded monocoque chassis should be certainly do-able!
>
> Mike
Interestingly we just had a TV show out here do a story on an
industrial design student in the US who built a carbon fibre
monocoque bike !
The speil said ' it is the first time it has ever been done '
etc etc ( which is wrong ) but it was certainly a nice job.
Typical shoesrtring student job - he used an old air cooled
GSX 1100 Suzuki motor - bit of a shame to put an old heavy
lump like that in something so cutting edge.
There have been several others - you guys may not hear about
them but the Kiwis are always playing around with this sort of
stuff. The Britten was more a stressed engine design than a
monocoque - but there was the Plastic Fantastic Heron Suzuki
(with a 500 GP motor ) and more recently a RC 30 Honda I think.
BTW - the student who built this most recent one had a mixed
American / German accent ( might be regional ) and a Germanic
name too I think. As I said - it was a nice job ( if a little
too radical in rider position etc ) but despite the commentaters
enthusiasm it has been done before.
Honda of course built the NR 500 oval piston racer with a
stressed faring as the chassis for their first attempt - then
went to a conventional tube frame when it became obvious that
breaking the bike in half just to check the spark plugs wasn't
practical.
Cheers IAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:58:41
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
At 01:16 PM 11/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>This type of cutting tool is common in the garment industry, and will cut
>an 8" thick stack of material into a shirt ready for stitching in no time
>flat.
Waterjets are used for any variety of materials and are unexcelled for
composites. One of my first prospective customers wanted to drive a
sheet-metal water-jet with it. For metals you usually need to add
abrasives. I interviewed once for a CAD job with a furniture maker. They
have dedicated software that optimizes the cutting of fabric covers by
juggling all the individual pieces onto the least area, with grain and
pattern carry-through, etc. They used it for sheet wooden parts too and
some of the ones that could be cut from two sides like some chair legs.
These things would knock off parts for boats, race cars and home-built
airplanes just as easily. And by putting the cutter on a lathe and/or
five-axis mill, couldn't you do some fine sculpturing?
>It's all CNC driven just like a plotter. I saw it on the Discovery
>channel. They showed a safety lecture to the employees - the instructor
>waved a sheet of cardboard under the cutter, and it just fell apart as if
>by magic. Very impressive.
It's dear to my heart. I use the same indexer kernal with my software as
many routers, jet cutters, lasers, torches, even CNC nibbler-punches,
robots, unaymits, etc. Most of these systems run under HPGL. The seller of
that kernal himself has HPGL interpreter for it. All this adds up to quick
cheap easy fast CNC pick all five for hobbyists, prototypers, job shops, etc.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:00:31 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
>At 10:53 AM 11/10/98 , you wrote:
>
>>I don't travel with the torch, so I chose the largest bottles.
>
>Everybody probably already knows this - but a welder should strictly follow
>safety procedures when moving Acetylene gas bottles from location to
>location and let the Acetylene settle for a safe time before using the
>torch. Some people use a different fuel gas because they travel quite a bit
>with their torches and don't want to have to wait for the gas to settle
>before they use it.
>
>FWIW,
>LCB
To add to your excellent comments, the bottles should always be
chained/ratchet strapped to an immoveable object to prevent tip-overs. The
Oxy bottles contain 3000+ psi, and a rupture in one of those would be quite
spectacular.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:08:45 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plastic fantastic
>The speil said ' it is the first time it has ever been done '
>etc etc ( which is wrong ) but it was certainly a nice job.
>Typical shoesrtring student job - he used an old air cooled
>GSX 1100 Suzuki motor - bit of a shame to put an old heavy
>lump like that in something so cutting edge.
Not so shoestring, the boyo was attending the cal design school and made
it whilst in an internship program with a firm that made indycars (or some
other high end cabon fibre thingy). There was a good article in Sport
Rider I'll dig it up and post more info tomorrow.
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:36:18 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Ditch Welding!
Suzuki glued their swingarm pieces on their early and maybe their current DR
series of off road bikes. There
was a boom in selling reinforced (welded and braced) arms for the DR
competition bikes when the aftermarket types had built a bit more power into
the bikes, but that was more blamed on arm flex and not so much on failure.
Seems that ther WERE a few rumors of failures, but not many or they would
have recalled a bunch of them. Problem with many of these "Cycrocrylics" or
however the chemical types spell it is that the BEST of the stuff is only
available commercially and not over the local parts counter. They are VERY
strong IF they are applied correctly and usless if not done right. Read a
couple of articles about them a few years back and basically they said that
what the "public" gets is really lower quality stuff. Also, you have to
watch out for heat breakdown on many of the adhesives. Several years back
there was some experimenting done on the bikes of some of the Euro MX teams.
You know, Carbon and Kevlar etc.. Well seems that everything was real neat
until the bike separated on landing from a jump due to the exhaust pipe heat
causing the material to fail! The rider wasn't happy!
The Carbon mufflers just about always use a heat shield of some sort inside
to keep the heat from reaching the muffler body and either flaming it (which
has been seen) or just destroying it. Not saying that it shouldn't be
played with, but as you said in a later post, you don't have the equipment
for "testing" the glued products.
Jim
"Swiss"
Subject: MC-Chassis Ditch Welding!
>Hi All,
>
>When are we going to break from traditional welding techniques here?
>
>Who's brave enough to venture into structural adhesives for frame
>building? Ditch the welders! The advantages would be to eliminate all
>those nasty heat problems (distortion, annealing, poss.
>embrittlement...).
>
>Some aerospace adhesives have been shown to be stronger than parent
>metal...at least as far as alum. sheetmetal is concerned. So an
>adhesive bonded monocoque chassis should be certainly do-able!
>
>Mike
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:02:57 GMT
From: geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. )
Subject: MC-Chassis Buckley Systems 500 GP bike launched
A bit of stuff of 2 stroke and chassis interest. A company here in
New Zealand called Buckley Systems make mega expensive machines for
silicon chip makers. It must be pretty profitable, as it has paid for
a fair number of race bikes over the years and running of same.
It has now gone a bit further, with the official launch of the
BSL500 3 cylinder GP bike at the Big Boys Toys Show in Auckland this
weekend. I have been following this with interest over the last 2
years, as I went to uni many years ago with one of the engineers
(Loren Poole - ex Britten M/C) and through other friends.
I will see if they will let me take photos...
Geoff
- --
Radar detector FAQ, Forte Agent automation FAQ, bathroom fan FAQ
and THE WORLDS BEST CHRISTMAS PUDDING RECIPE
are at http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/
REMOVE "DELETEME" SPAMBLOCKER FROM ADDRESS TO REPLYTO USENET POSTINGS
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #814
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Wednesday, November 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 815
1. geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. ) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plastic fantastic
2. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plastic fantastic
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plastic fantastic
4. bsags@isat.com (David Kath) Subj: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
5. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
6. Gecos Gigolo Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
7. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Italjet
8. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis (Fwd) Updated Tilting Trike Article & Website List 11/11/98
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:10:08 GMT
From: geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. )
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plastic fantastic
On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:01:41 +1100, you wrote:
>
>There have been several others - you guys may not hear about
>them but the Kiwis are always playing around with this sort of
>stuff. The Britten was more a stressed engine design than a
>monocoque - but there was the Plastic Fantastic Heron Suzuki
>(with a 500 GP motor ) and more recently a RC 30 Honda I think.
There was a 400cc F3 bike in NZ a couple of years ago that had a
carbon fibre frame. I can't remember the builders name, but he was
quite well known at the time. It was based (IIRC) on a ZXR400
Kawasaki.
Geoff
- --
Radar detector FAQ, Forte Agent automation FAQ, bathroom fan FAQ
and THE WORLDS BEST CHRISTMAS PUDDING RECIPE
are at http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/
REMOVE "DELETEME" SPAMBLOCKER FROM ADDRESS TO REPLYTO USENET POSTINGS
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:16:20
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plastic fantastic
At 10:01 AM 11/11/98 +1100, you wrote:
>> Who's brave enough to venture into structural adhesives for frame
>> building? Ditch the welders! The advantages would be to eliminate all
>> those nasty heat problems (distortion, annealing, poss.
Anyone remember the Lino? Lito? Swedish 500cc 4S MX thing with big fat
aluminum tubes bonded into cast and machined lugs for frame junctions and
SA mount, etc. Looked pretty hunky too. The technique has been used also
more recently with bikes.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:12:04 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plastic fantastic
> Anyone remember the Lino? Lito? Swedish 500cc 4S MX thing with big fat
Hello Hoyt,
It was the Lito - not to be confused with the doubled up Aermacchi
engined Linto roadracer.
If I don't have a picture of it on the web site I'll try to hunt one
up and put it there.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:58:48 -0800
From: bsags@isat.com (David Kath)
Subject: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
Gents... Thxs for the good info on plasma cutter theory. Now another set
of questions:
1. Will plasma cutting be aceptable cutting out engine/tranny
mounting plates from 1/4" 2024 T30 aluminum? (I have a supply on
hand)
2. Is there a better alloy for engine plates?
3. Will plasma cutting cause unaceptable warpage?
4. Will the cutting cause unaceptable internal stress or weaken the
metal?
5. Am I correct in assuming you can stack and cut 2 plates
simultaneously?
Being able to use this method would sure eliminate a good bit of tedious
band saw work.
TIA, dave - NV
Seeley GS vintage RRr under construction.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:32:48 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
Use the band saw with a bit of cut wax! Blade speed about 1/2 that for wood. 3/8 inch, 6-8 tpi Skip tooth profile works fine. Don't let the heat build up and cause binding. Use plenty of relief cuts to avoid tight turns. Rather pleasant work in my experience. Pin two plates together to make a pair.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: David Kath
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 12:58 PM
>
> Gents... Thxs for the good info on plasma cutter theory. Now another set
> of questions:
> 1. Will plasma cutting be aceptable cutting out engine/tranny
> mounting plates from 1/4" 2024 T30 aluminum? (I have a supply on
> hand)
> 2. Is there a better alloy for engine plates?
> 3. Will plasma cutting cause unaceptable warpage?
> 4. Will the cutting cause unaceptable internal stress or weaken the
> metal?
> 5. Am I correct in assuming you can stack and cut 2 plates
> simultaneously?
> Being able to use this method would sure eliminate a good bit of tedious
> band saw work.
> TIA, dave - NV
>
> Seeley GS vintage RRr under construction.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:44:34 -0500
From: Gecos Gigolo
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
> 1. Will plasma cutting be aceptable cutting out engine/tranny
> mounting plates from 1/4" 2024 T30 aluminum? (I have a supply on
> hand)
The only aluminium I've cut with a plasma cutter was very thin (.040
or so), the cut was a bit messy, but I'd bet it'd do better with
thicker metal. My (very limited) experience is that the faster you cut
the cleaner a cut you get (up to the speed at which you no longer cut
all the way through the metal).
> 2. Is there a better alloy for engine plates?
No idea.
> 3. Will plasma cutting cause unaceptable warpage?
There isn't much heat involved, I doubt you'd see any warpage with
1/4" material. There definately isn't with steel anywhere near that
thickness.
> 4. Will the cutting cause unaceptable internal stress or weaken the
> metal?
I don't know off the top of my head if 2024 is heat treated, but there
will be enough heat near the cut to affect the temper.
> 5. Am I correct in assuming you can stack and cut 2 plates
> simultaneously?
You can, but 1/2" will require a larger than average plasma cutter, and
my guess is (although I've never tried it) that the plates would be
slightly welded together along the edges.
> Being able to use this method would sure eliminate a good bit of tedious
> band saw work.
I'd stick to the band saw. You can cut two plates at once, you'll get
a slightly cleaner cut with a bandsaw, and it's probably easier to do
a freehand cut accurately with a bandsaw than with a plasma cutter. If
the bandsaw work is that tedious then I'd look into a new good blade
and maybe a bigger motor for the bandsaw, you'd get away with at most
1/3rd the cost of a plasma cutter (but then you wouldn't have a plasma
cutter, and plasma cutters are definately cool).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:55:03 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Italjet
Lynn,
Do you have the Feb 77 issue of Cycle magazine?
Ray
- ----------
> From: LTSNIDER
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis Italjet
> Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 5:02 AM
>
> Does anyone have a web address for Italjet? I tried to buy a 50
> roadracer in the 70's but Italy was out for a long wine break and I
> never got it.
> LYNN SNIDER
> "If at first you don't succeed, Your skydiving days are over."
> Boise, Idaho
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:09:26 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis (Fwd) Updated Tilting Trike Article & Website List 11/11/98
Here's a message from Mitch on the tilting trikes:
- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:44:33 -0500
From: Mitch Casto
Subject: Updated Tilting Trike Article & Website List 11/11/98
Mitch Casto wrote:
> Looking for Additions:
> Note- I'm trying to locate articles which focus on what I call Tilting
> Trikes, examples of which are the Jephcott Micro, General Motors Lean
> Machine, and Mercedes Benz Lifejet F300 and various human powered trikes
> with tilting chassis. This list deliberately leaves out the voluminous
> literature of such related topics as 4 wheeled automotive active
> suspensions, tilting trains and alternative vehicles. Please let me know
> of any additional items which should be on this list. - Mitch Casto
>
1998 Schact, Michael. "Mercedes-Benz F-300 Lifejet" Website:
http://www.com-cepts.com/mss3dmodels.htm [styling exercise of
F300 Lifejet using software 3D modeling]
1998 IBM U.S.A. Patents Database. Website:
http://www.patents.ibm.com [this site has the full patents and drawings
back to 1973. I have compiled a list of over 100 patents for varieties
of tilting trikes- contact me for this.]
> 1998 Cossalter, Vittore and Davide Danesin Website:
> http://www.atnet.it/lista/casdaven.htm [software modeling of a tilting
> trike at the Italian University of Padua].
1998 Neerpasch, Uwe and Peter Klander and Dieter Braun and
Phillip Kohn and Peter Holdmann. "Ein Konzepfahrzeug mit
aktiven Fahrwerks- komponenten" - "A concept car with active
chassis components". in Aachener Kolloquium Fahrzeung-
und Motorentechnik 1998 p443-465. [article in German about
the development of the Mercedes F300 Lifejet]
>
> 1998 Snell, Antony. "Active Roll-moment Control Strategies for Narrow
> Commuter Vehicles", Vehicle System Dynamics
> v 29 n5 May 1998. Swets & Zeitlinger Lisse Netherlands p277-307 ISSN:
> 0042-3114 CODEN: VSDYA4
>
> 1998 Sulman, James (w/ Mike Richardson). "Millenium Motorcycle" Website:
> http://student.curtin.edu.au/~esulman/tilt.html
> [one-off tilting road legal trike in Australia]
>
> 1998 Simms, Ian "Greenspeed Design and Development" Website:
> http://www.ihpva.org/com/Greenspeed/dev.html
> [manufacturer of human powered tilting trikes]
>
> 1998 Mercedes Benz. [Mercedes F300 Lifejet] Website:
> http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/innovation/fmobil/f300_dynamik.htm
>
> 1998 Ashley, Steve. "This Tricycle Is Not For Kids", Mechanical
> Engineering, Feb. 1998 p12. [Mercedes Lifejet]
>
> 1998 Foale, Tony. "QT" Website: http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
> [one-off tilting trike]
>
> 1998 Hall, Max . "Tilting Trikes" Website:
> http://www.maxmatic.com/tilters.htm [various tilting trike prototypes]
>
> 1998 Bokhorst, F. "Lean Steering Trike" Website:
> http://www.uct.ac.za/depts/psychology/bok/steer.html [one-off human
> powered tilting trike]
>
> 1998 "BMW Feet First Concept Trike"
> http://www.eurosoft-ind.demon.co.uk/bmw31.htm [one photo of a prototype]
>
> 1998 van Elk, Edwin. Website
> http://www.ct.utwente.nl/~elk/hobby/brink2.jpg
> [Brink Technology tilting trike in the Netherlands- images taken from
> television
coverage June 1997 upon winning an invention award].
1998 (no author) "A Thin Car To Allow Two Motorway Lanes In One" Website
http://www.newciv.org/GIB/reinv/RIS-149.HTML from Global Ideas Bank
homepage http://www.newciv.org/GIB/ Institute of Roger Knights
1997 (no author given). "A Mercedes You Can Lean In", Machine Design,
Oct. 23 1997 p? [Mercedes Benz Lifejet]
1997 (author?). "It Takes All Kinds", Two Wheels [magazine?] Oct. 1997
p104-106. Federal Publishing Company, 180 Bourke Rd. Alexandria
NSW 2015. [Australian one-off built by Mike Richardson & James Sulman]
> 1997-8 various authors & dates. Website: Motorcycle Chassis Design
> e-mail list / archives http://www.eurospares.com [e-mail list with
> scattered discussions about tilting trikes]
>
> 1997 Sang-Gyun So and Dean Karnopp. "Switching Strategies for Narrow
> Ground Vehicles with Dual Mode Automatic Tilt Control", International
> Journal of Vehicle Design, Vol. 18, No. 5 (Special Issue), 1997
> p518-532.
>
> 1997 Sang-Gyun So and Dean Karnopp. "Active Dual Mode Tilt Control for
> Narrow Ground Vehicles". Vehicle System Dynamics, 27, 1997 p19-36.
>
> 1997 van den Brink, C.R. and H.M. Kroonen (Brink Dynamics). Dynamic
> Vehicle Control for Enclosed Narrow Vehicles [has hand written across
> top..."Proc. 6th European Congress EAEC, Vol. 1, 217-226, July 2,3,4
> 1997 Villa Erba, Cernobbio Italy, publ. ATA]
1997 Karnopp, Dean. "The Dynamics of Narrow, Automatically Tilted
Commuter Vehicles". [EAEC]
1997 [author?]. "Trikes R Us" AWOL magazine Vol. 6 No. 11 [Sept 97?]
p102 [short article includes photo of one-off two rear wheels leaning
trike
based on a Honda CX 500 motorcycle built by Colin Stout in England]
e-mail awol@plan-z.demon.co.uk
website http://www.demon.co.uk/awol/index.htm
> 1997 Eason, Kevin. "British Ingenuity proves no match for German Money:
> Ten Years ago Cliff Ingram designed a three-wheeler. Now Mercedes has
> the same idea." The Times [London, England newspaper] 11/24/97
> http://www.the-times.co.uk [no subscription necessary for access]
> 1996 Hibbard, Robin and Dean Karnopp. "Twenty First Century
> Transportation System Solutions - A New Type of Small, Relatively Narrow
> Active Tilting Commuter Vehicle", Vehicle System Dynamics, 25 , 1996
> p321-347.
>
> 1996 Blezard, Paul. "Perfect for the Puttering Purveyors of Pizza"
> [Honda Cabina & Canopy] & "How Britain Showed the Way" [Ariel 3 circa
> 1975 tilting trike scooter]. The Daily Telegraph [London England
> newspaper] March 16, 1996 p9C [?]. http://www.telegraph.co.uk
>
> 1996 So, S. [Sang-Gyun?]. "Development of Dual Mode Automatic Tilt
> Control Systems for Ultra-Narrow Commuter Vehicle", PhD Dissertation,
> University of California at Davis, 1996.
1995 Riley, Robert Q. "Specialty Cars for the 21st Century" The Futurist
Nov.-Dec. 1995 p8-12. [only brief mention of GM Lean Machine]
> 1994 (author?) [article about "Flexit" motorcycle sidecar] Hack'd
> magazine Spring 1994.
1993 Young, R. "The Thin Machine-Caltrans Invests $350,000 to Develop
a Car for Die-Hard Solo Driver". The Sacramento [Calif] Bee, Oct. 15,
1993 pC1
1993 Young, Ricky. "It's Time For Life in the Narrow Lane". Seattle Times
[newspaper?] Oct. 10, 1993.
> 1993 Hibbard, Robin and Dean Karnopp. "Methods of Controlling the Lean
> Angle of Tilting Vehicles", DSC-Vol. 52, Advanced Automotive
> Technologies ASME 1993 p311-320.
>
> 1993 Hibbard, Robin and Dean Karnopp. "The Dynamics of Small, Relatively
> Tall and Narrow Tilting Ground Vehicles", DSC Vol. 52, Advanced
> Automotive Technologies ASME 1993 p397-417.
>
> 1993 Hibbard, Robin. "The Dynamics of Ground Vehicles with Active
> Tilting Suspensions, PhD Thesis, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering,
> University of California, Davis.
>
> 1992 Karnopp, Dean and Robin Hibbard. "Optimum Roll Angle Behavior for
> Tilting Ground Vehicles", DSC Vol 44, Transportation Systems ASME 1992
> p29-37.
>
> 1992 Karnopp, Dean and Chih Fang. "A Simple Model of Steering Controlled
> Banking Vehicles. DSC Vol. 44, Transportation Systems American Society of
> Mechanical Engineers 1992 p15-28.
1991-1993 Karnopp, D. and R. Hibbard. "Analytical and Computer Study
of Active Tilting Suspension Systems for High Performance Commuter
Vehicles, Caltrans Division of New Technology, Materials Research
Project,
Interagency Agreement #65P598, M.O.V. #6, 1991-1993.
1991 Pitstick, Mark E. and William L. Garrison. "Restructuring the
Automobile/Highway System for Lean Vehicles: the scaled precedence
activity
network (SPAN) approach" . Program on Advanced Technology for the Highway
(PATH) Univ. of Calif. at Berkeley. PATH Research Report UCB-ITS-PRR-97-7
April 1991 ISSN 1055-1425
1991? Blevard, Paul. "Teutonic Trike" [Motorcycle Sport and Leisure
magazine
England?] [BMW C1 Concept enclosed tilting trike first publicly displayed
in 1987,
not to be confused with 1998 BMW C1 2 wheeled scooter]
> 1990 Garrison, W.L. and Pitstick, M.E. . "Lean Vehicles: Strategies for
> Introduction Emphasizing Adjustments to Parking and Road Facilities."
> SAE Paper 901484.
1990 Garrison, William L. and Pitstick, Mark E.. "Lean Machines:
Preliminary Investigations". California PATH [Program on Advanced
Technology for the Highway]. Univ. of Calif. at Berkeley.
UCB-ITS-PRR-90-4
1990[?] Beronius, George. "It's A Bike, It's A Car, It's a Unisport"
[no other publication information article is about a small Anaheim,
California based company manufacturing an open topped enclosed tilting
trike with two front wheels adapted onto a motorcycle with front wheel
removed. Owner of the company is said to be Raymond Carston] [one page]
> 1989 "D.S." (initials only printed). "Pendulum Trike", Popular Science
> Nov. 1989 p63 [Jephcott Micro tilting trike]
>
> 1984 (no author) "[Honda] Gyro" Cycle '84 Buyers Guide p116
>
> 1983 Egan, Peter. "Lean Machine: Logic and Substance from the Dreamer's
> Workshop", Road and Track, January 1983 p80B, 80C, 80D. [General Motors
> Lean Machine tilting trike]
>
> 1983 (author?) [Mother Earth News magazine"20 page information package"
> about 3VG tilting trike]
>
> 1983 (no author given). The 3VG (Part 1) Mother Earth News Sept./Oct.
> 1983 p106-8 [Prototype tilting trike by Shuttlesworth]
>
> 1983 (no author given). The 3VG (Part 2) Mother Earth News Nov./Dec.1983
> p? [prototype tilting trike by Shuttlesworth]
>
> 1983 (author?). [article about "Equalean Sidekick" motorcycle sidecar]
> Road Rider November 1983.
>
> 1980 David Scott. "Tilting Trike- a car that really leans into turns."
> Popular Science July 1980 p95. [Jephcott tilting trike prototype]
>
197? [author? articles about 'Ariel 3' scooter which was seemingly the
ancestor of the Honda Gyro manufactured by a conglomerate of British
motorcycle manufacturers perhaps under BSA in the early 1970's. The
vehicle did not sell well in the UK, but the patent may have been sold to
Diahatsu Japan and was manufactured as the "Hello". There were some
articles published about the 'Ariel 3' in the British magazine,
Motorcycle
Mechanics.]
>
> 1968 Li, Y.T. and J.L. Meiry and W.G. Roesler. "An Active Roll Mode
> System for Ground Vehicles", Trans. ASME, J. Basic Engineering, June
> 1968 p167-74.
>
> 1966 Li, Yao T. "Stability and Controlability of Vehicles for High Speed
> and High Traffic Permeability" Society of Automotive Engineers,
> Automotive Engineering Congress, Detroit Michigan Jan 10-14, 1966
> (660024) [Massachusett's Institute of Technology experimental tilting
> trike]
>
> 1952? Bruce, Michael. "The Gamaunt Banker- the banking sidecar returns
> and this time Roger Gamaunt really has it..." [Reprint fro Hack'd
> motorcycle sidecar magazine ( Buckhannon, West Virginia USA)]
>
> I would like to thank the following people for looking up remembered
> articles
> and sending them to me:
Harry Kroonen, Larry Edwards, Dean Karnopp, Tony Snell, Julian Bond,
Paul Blevard, Mike Richardon & Tudor Thomas and fear that as soon as I
send this I'll
remember someone else!
If any of you come up with anything else, please let me know and also
please
forward this list to anyone you know would be interested.
> your librarian,
> mitch
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #815
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Thursday, November 12 1998 Volume 01 : Number 816
1. Craig Kenfield Subj: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
2. "Joe Allan" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
3. Craig Kenfield Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
4. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
5. Johnayleng@aol.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
6. Duncan Griffiths Subj: MC-Chassis For Sale: Front wheel
7. Marty Maclean Subj: Re: MC-Chassis For Sale: Front wheel
8. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
9. "Joe Allan" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
10. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
11. Lauren Subj: Re: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
12. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
13. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis more Carbon fibre monocoque details
14. Lauren Subj: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
15. mike.dean@poseidon.dictaphone.com (Mike Dean) Subj: MC-Chassis Kurtis Roberts' RS250 Chassis Mods
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:19:45 -0600
From: Craig Kenfield
Subject: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
Fair warning, there's no chassis content here, Sorry. But I find myself
looking for some pistons and it seemed there may be people here with
information...
What I am looking for is something to fit a 77mm bore (22mm pin), aircooled
cylinder. It won't be a very high-revving engine (maybe 6000rpm w/74mm
stroke) so nothing too "high performance" is needed.
The stock pistons aren't ideal because I want to use a longer stroke crank
with slightly longer rods, i.e. I want to move the pin location to try to
avoid, or at least minimize, spacing the cylinder.
Does there exist a listing or website of any manufacturer that lists stock
sizes available along with other pertinant info, or do I approach the
companies with the specs I desire and see what they have to say?
Barring finding anything stock, does anyone have an estimate of what custom
pistons would cost? I'd need at least four.
Thanks for any help,
- -Craig
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:42:56 -0800
From: "Joe Allan"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
Craig Kenfield wrote:
>
> Fair warning, there's no chassis content here, Sorry. But I find myself
> looking for some pistons and it seemed there may be people here with
> information...
>
> What I am looking for is something to fit a 77mm bore (22mm pin), aircooled
> cylinder. It won't be a very high-revving engine (maybe 6000rpm w/74mm
> stroke) so nothing too "high performance" is needed.
>
> The stock pistons aren't ideal because I want to use a longer stroke crank
> with slightly longer rods, i.e. I want to move the pin location to try to
> avoid, or at least minimize, spacing the cylinder.
>
> Does there exist a listing or website of any manufacturer that lists stock
> sizes available along with other pertinant info, or do I approach the
> companies with the specs I desire and see what they have to say?
>
> Barring finding anything stock, does anyone have an estimate of what custom
> pistons would cost? I'd need at least four.
>
> Thanks for any help,
>
> -Craig
FWIW, Try looking at VW pistons...they may work.
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:56:59 -0600
From: Craig Kenfield
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
At 6:42 PM -0800 11/11/98, Joe Allan wrote:
>FWIW, Try looking at VW pistons...they may work.
> Joe
Ah, Joe, you caught me...
Not only does this have no chassis content, it has no bike content either.
This is for a 1960 VW Karmann-Ghia that I'm trying to put a Porsche crank
in...
- -Craig
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:16:40 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
Craig Kenfield wrote:
> Does there exist a listing or website of any manufacturer that lists stock
> sizes available along with other pertinant info, or do I approach the
> companies with the specs I desire and see what they have to say?
Arias (somewhere in California? I forget where) does custom
racing pistons - call them with your specs. Sorry I don't
have a better pointer to them! You might look for ads in
hot-rod car mags.
Years ago I was looking for pistons for a farm tractor
at the commune where I then resided. (OK, it wasn't a
bike, but we've already strayed to VW's...) When I called
Arias it seemed that what we needed would involve machining
a piston blank to the desired bore size, grooving for rings,
& boring the pin hole... these were plain flat-topped pistons
w/o fancy hi-comp domes & valve reliefs.
As I remember it wasn't much more than the OEM replacements
we eventually ended up sourcing - ~$100 ea.??
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:57:23 EST
From: Johnayleng@aol.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
In a message dated 11/11/98 10:18:20 PM Mountain Standard Time,
daze39@grin.net writes:
> Craig Kenfield wrote:
> > Does there exist a listing or website of any manufacturer that lists
stock
> > sizes available along with other pertinant info, or do I approach the
> > companies with the specs I desire and see what they have to say?
>
Here is the site for J and P custom pistons:
http://www.jp.com.au/JPPistons.html
John Aylor NM
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:44:45
From: Duncan Griffiths
Subject: MC-Chassis For Sale: Front wheel
For sale: 3.5" Marvic 3-spoke front wheel, several seasons used, or 3.75"
TZ aluminum front wheel, ~500 miles used, both without disks, $300 for
either.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:20:25 -0700
From: Marty Maclean
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis For Sale: Front wheel
Duncan Griffiths wrote:
>
> For sale: 3.5" Marvic 3-spoke front wheel, several seasons used, or 3.75"
> TZ aluminum front wheel, ~500 miles used, both without disks, $300 for
> either.
I may be interested - what shape are they in?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:41:32
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
At 06:19 PM 11/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>What I am looking for is something to fit a 77mm bore (22mm pin), aircooled
>cylinder. It won't be a very high-revving engine (maybe 6000rpm w/74mm
>stroke) so nothing too "high performance" is needed.
Honda XL350 is 79 mm and has that pin, I believe.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:02:08 -0800
From: "Joe Allan"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
Craig Kenfield wrote:
> Ah, Joe, you caught me...
>
> Not only does this have no chassis content, it has no bike content either.
> This is for a 1960 VW Karmann-Ghia that I'm trying to put a Porsche crank
> in...
>
> -Craig
Craig;
Well don't give me that much credit:-) the only reason I thought of the
VW pistons is that they are a swap for XS650 Yamaha slugs, I am
presently building a dirt dragger/hill climber based on a XS motor (Alum
plate sandwich frame maybe) and I need a bore kit, was looking at high
performance VW pistons but they're all quite flat topped....... good for
a blower I guess:-)
Good luck on the project. Maybe XS650 pistons will work in the Ghia??
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:28:45 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
The 350 Honda is close but not quite. The pin is a 21mm. Also, if it
helps, the pin-center to crown (flat-top) height is 1.1475".
Jim
"Swiss"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
>At 06:19 PM 11/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>What I am looking for is something to fit a 77mm bore (22mm pin),
aircooled
>>cylinder. It won't be a very high-revving engine (maybe 6000rpm w/74mm
>>stroke) so nothing too "high performance" is needed.
>
>Honda XL350 is 79 mm and has that pin, I believe.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:51:38 -0800
From: Lauren
Subject: Re: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
At 04:00 PM 11/10/98 , Alan Lapp wrote:
>>At 10:53 AM 11/10/98 , you wrote:
>>
>>>I don't travel with the torch, so I chose the largest bottles.
>>
>>Everybody probably already knows this - but a welder should strictly follow
>>safety procedures when moving Acetylene gas bottles from location to
>>location and let the Acetylene settle for a safe time before using the
>>torch. Some people use a different fuel gas because they travel quite a bit
>>with their torches and don't want to have to wait for the gas to settle
>>before they use it.
>>
>>FWIW,
>>LCB
>
>To add to your excellent comments, the bottles should always be
>chained/ratchet strapped to an immoveable object to prevent tip-overs. The
>Oxy bottles contain 3000+ psi, and a rupture in one of those would be quite
>spectacular.
>
My precaution about letting Acetylene settle for more than a few seconds
has been challenged on a newsgroup. I don't have my welding books here at
work, and after searching the 'net I have found no reference to this
precaution (even on a hazardous material worksheet listing special
precautions for acetylene cylinders) - so does anybody have an
authoritative source for this precaution and a time to wait (I remember 30
minutes if the cylinders have been transported via truck)? Am I spreading
an urban myth that I was told numerous times in my welding classes.
Thanks,
LCB
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:24:38 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
"My precaution about letting Acetylene settle for more than a few
seconds
has been challenged on a newsgroup. "
My experience was that you did not want to tip the acetylene tank. Doing
so could cause problems.
I remember seeing all the AWS posters to that effect.
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:29:47 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis more Carbon fibre monocoque details
Hans Moritz, our builder, spent two years at Digital Design in Irvine
Cal. A high tech aerospace firm. The chassis with engine mounts weighs
39 lbs, though after building this first chassis Hans said he could cut
30lbs from the chassis. I believe he was hired by Honda immediately
following his graduation.
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 12:32:15 -0800
From: Lauren
Subject: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
At 12:24 PM 11/12/98 , you wrote:
>"My precaution about letting Acetylene settle for more than a few
>seconds
>has been challenged on a newsgroup. "
>
>My experience was that you did not want to tip the acetylene tank. Doing
>so could cause problems.
>
Yes I remember that too - but I think the precaution includes moving them
period (vibration, etc.). Then again it has been almost twenty years since
I took the training and over ten since I have lit a torch so it could just
be that I am getting old and befuddled ;-)
LCB
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 17:22:01 -0500
From: mike.dean@poseidon.dictaphone.com (Mike Dean)
Subject: MC-Chassis Kurtis Roberts' RS250 Chassis Mods
Dear Chassis listers.
Forgive me if this is old news to all of you, but there is a pretty good
writeup on the Erion Racing Kurtis Roberts' RS250 Chassis mods at this link.
Including the dual eccentric chain adjuster.
Tons of mods and change to the chassis. Interesting.
http://www.activebike.com/index/features/rs250/rs250.html
Mike Dean
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #816
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, November 13 1998 Volume 01 : Number 817
1. bsags@isat.com (David Kath) Subj: MC-Chassis Acetylene, pistons, & monocoque chassis
2. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis CAD software
4. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis CAD software
5. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Gas bottles
6. Julian Bond Subj: MC-Chassis front sprockets
7. Gecos Gigolo Subj: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
8. "Ed Biafore" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Re: Gas bottles
9. "Frank Camillieri" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Welding tanks
10. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis front sprockets
11. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
12. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis front sprockets
13. Craig Kenfield Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
14. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis front sprockets, another way
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 16:24:18 -0800
From: bsags@isat.com (David Kath)
Subject: MC-Chassis Acetylene, pistons, & monocoque chassis
Gents... My 2 cents worth: I was told in the dim past that acetylene
bottles must always remain upright during use, as there is a foam
substance, balsa wood?, within the bottle which holds the "gas/liquid"
in suspension....sorry if I'm misleading anyone, but I do remember the
bottle must be upright in service, and if it had been lying on it's side
during transport, one should stand it upright and not use it for awhile,
to allow the liquid to settle.
Define awhile?: longer than a little bit, but shorter than a long time.
I dunno....
Pistons: Craig, check any of the VW aftermarket/racer suppliers. I
believe it would be impossible to do a Vdub motor in any configuration
that hasn't been done before by many builders! Lots of good parts are
available. I have a couple of friends with very frantic buggies that I'm
sure I could get more info from if you need it. They are quite serious
building "not quite original", motors that make huge power, and don't
break, very often....
A gent told me this last week, "Go Big or Go Home"!
Monocoque chassis: The cover bike and a great article is in this months
issue of "Classic Racer", magazine on the John Player monocoque Norton
from the seventies. The chassis, made from sheet SS, had the oil and
fuel tanks, and air ducts/engine shrouds intregal with it. Lots of
detailed pictures and a good long story. There is also a good article
with large detailed pictures of the '81-'82 factory Kawa K500 square
four 500 GP bike with the alu monocoque chassis. I find it very
interesting, as everything seems to bolt up to the fuel tank with the
intregal fork stem. I believe this fine UK magazine is only available
at the large city book stores or of course by subscription. Perhaps
there are some ideas for you in there... especially Michael M. with his
new english wheel!
dave - NV
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:01:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
- -> Not only does this have no chassis content, it has no bike content
- -> either. This is for a 1960 VW Karmann-Ghia that I'm trying to put a
- -> Porsche crank in...
Just pretend it's an Amazonas...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:16:22 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis CAD software
If you go to
http://www.intergraph.com/imaginele/
you can request a free copy of Intergraph's "Imagination Engineer LE"
2D CAD software. It will be included in the Win98 Resource CD. It
is a "light edition" of their regular 2D program.
For those of you who don't have anything it may be worth a try.
I wouldn't mind if it is good enough to replace the DOS version of
ACAD that I have. I don't use that many commands anyway, and maybe
the lite Win version will have acceptable functionality. The full
package got a pretty good writeup in an article I saw recently.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:22:47 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis CAD software
And I just received my auto-generated reply telling me the CD will be
shipped to me posthaste.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 00:02:25 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Gas bottles
LCB wrote:
<<
so does anybody have an
authoritative source for this precaution and a time to wait (I remember 30
minutes if the cylinders have been transported via truck)? Am I spreading
an urban myth that I was told numerous times in my welding classes.
>>
I'm no authoritive source but I too also followed this advice blindly.
Acetylene is not stored in the bottles as a simple compressed gas as per
oxygen. Rather it is in liquid form in the bottles with some sort of
wadding to stop surging (I guess). Presumably, this is why we need to let
things settle a bit.
Tony Foale.
España / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:11:37 +0000
From: Julian Bond
Subject: MC-Chassis front sprockets
The TL1000 list has been talking about trying to lighten an 18 tooth 530
front sprocket. As it's hardened steel, they're having trouble getting
it drilled.
Seeing as you guys seem to have a lot of contacts in this sort of area,
can anyone recommend a N American supplier either for lightweight
sprockets in this size, or engineering shops who could safely lighten
this sort of item?
- -- ______________________________ )+( _____________________________ --
Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
CN250/Helix/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
8600 Bike Suppliers, Contacts & Addresses http://www.bikeweb.com
> Contains less than 1% Juice <
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 04:15:43 -0500
From: Gecos Gigolo
Subject: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
> Yes I remember that too - but I think the precaution includes moving
> them period (vibration, etc.). Then again it has been almost twenty
> years since I took the training and over ten since I have lit a torch
> so it could just be that I am getting old and befuddled ;-)
The weird thing about acetylene tanks is that they're actually mostly
full of acetone and a big sponge. Acetylene is un-stable under
pressure, so it's dissolved in the acetone. That's also why the
pressure in an acetylene tank is hundreds of PSI and oxygen tanks are
thousands.
Acetylene tends to explode when pressurized, so don't ever get the
urge to fill anything with acetylene under pressure. I met a guy who
was injured while making some acetylene based fireworks for July
4th. I never got the whole story, but I believe he had a plastic
container (maybe a coke bottle? They're good to something like 300psi)
filled with acetylene under light pressure and it exploded when he
tripped and dropped it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 03:16:28 -0700
From: "Ed Biafore"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Re: Gas bottles
Tony sez:
> Acetylene is not stored in the bottles as a simple compressed gas as per
> oxygen. Rather it is in liquid form in the bottles with some sort of
> wadding to stop surging (I guess). Presumably, this is why we need to let
> things settle a bit.
I'm no expert but as I recall from welding class in college, it is
dissolved in acetone as a stabilizer and that's why there's wadding in the
tank. I believe that's the reason why it should settle out a bit before you
use it.
Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200
Glendale, AZ
http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:54:18 -0500
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Welding tanks
>>Some people use a different fuel gas because they travel quite a bit
>>with their torches and don't want to have to wait for the gas to settle
>>before they use it.
>>
In my much younger days (40 years ago) I carried my tanks laying down
inside my panel truck. I used them that way and never had a problem. I think I
heard that it wasn't a good idea but did it anyway. Maybe I was just lucky,
but I don't think I would try it again. Just in case they are right.
Frank Camillieri
Chester, NH
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:26:00
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis front sprockets
At 08:11 AM 11/13/98 +0000, you wrote:
>The TL1000 list has been talking about trying to lighten an 18 tooth 530
>front sprocket. As it's hardened steel, they're having trouble getting
>it drilled.
Drilling for the birds. Sprocket should have center section both sides
turned to a thinner web. Can be done by grinder or hi-speed spindle with
carbide tool. It will make sparks either way but it will get done. You can
lose more weight by webbing it and it will stay stronger.
>can anyone recommend a N American supplier either for lightweight
>sprockets in this size, or engineering shops who could safely lighten
>this sort of item?
I can, of course. I do essentially the same thing when I cut sprockets up
to weld up odd tooth-hub combos. What did you expect?
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:45:28
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
At 04:15 AM 11/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>The weird thing about acetylene tanks is that they're actually mostly
>full of acetone and a big sponge.
Usually balsa wood or Fuller's earth
>pressure, so it's dissolved in the acetone. That's also why the
>pressure in an acetylene tank is hundreds of PSI and oxygen tanks are
>thousands.
It's more complicated than that. PURE C2H2 is safely handled at 250-300 PSI
in gas plants in manifolds and pipes which are used for filling user tanks.
It is by law dispensed at max pressures of 30 PSI (look at the max on
outlet regulators, for example) because users tend to get oxygen into C2H2
hoses and gauges, when set is inactive and/or while changing tanks. The O2
is the problem, making the reaction much higher probability by lowering
necessary molecular energy to initiate it.
>Acetylene tends to explode when pressurized, so don't ever get the
>urge to fill anything with acetylene under pressure.
It has to have excessive pressure to go bang, but it does so by itself,
either as a detonation wave or a deflagration wave, differing in rate of
released energy by timescales of thousands to one.
>was injured while making some acetylene based fireworks for July
>4th. I never got the whole story, but I believe he had a plastic
>container (maybe a coke bottle? They're good to something like 300psi)
>filled with acetylene under light pressure and it exploded when he
>tripped and dropped it.
The right way is to put about two cups of water in the bottle, bend it to
form a retaining wall, add calcium carbide (about 30-35 grams per cup),
cap, throw. The C2H2 builds up pressure until it gets snuggly with the O2
and then you get a spectacular bang. Ask any caver ;> !!
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:54:13 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis front sprockets
This would be a great application for water jet or laser cutting. Or more recently, the combination of the two, with the water jet serving as a light pipe to confine the laser!
Material hardness would not matter, and the heat effected zone in the case of the laser would not matter.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: Julian Bond
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis front sprockets
> Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 3:11 AM
>
> The TL1000 list has been talking about trying to lighten an 18 tooth 530
> front sprocket. As it's hardened steel, they're having trouble getting
> it drilled.
>
> Seeing as you guys seem to have a lot of contacts in this sort of area,
> can anyone recommend a N American supplier either for lightweight
> sprockets in this size, or engineering shops who could safely lighten
> this sort of item?
>
> -- ______________________________ )+( _____________________________ --
> Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
> CN250/Helix/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
> 8600 Bike Suppliers, Contacts & Addresses http://www.bikeweb.com
> > Contains less than 1% Juice <
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:29:39 -0600
From: Craig Kenfield
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
At 6:01 PM -0500 11/12/98, Dave Williams wrote:
>-> Not only does this have no chassis content, it has no bike content
>-> either. This is for a 1960 VW Karmann-Ghia that I'm trying to put a
>-> Porsche crank in...
>
> Just pretend it's an Amazonas...
>
Oh yeah, I forgot! That's exactly what it is. I'm building a bike around
the VW engine, using the old 36hp as a base becasue of it's smaller
dimensions...
Yeah, that's it. That's what I'm doing...
- -Craig
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:44:43 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis front sprockets, another way
Julian asked "The TL1000 list has been talking about trying to lighten
an 18 tooth 530
front sprocket. As it's hardened steel, they're having trouble
getting
it drilled.
As an alternative to thinning the web, if they wanted it "drilled", any
EDM house could cut holes in the hardened sprocket easily.
(EDM=electro discharge machine. Uses a carbon electrode in an oil bath
to erode the hardened steel away. The oil then flushes the particles
out. Often used in die work, also used to remove broken taps. Very
common technology in most larger cities.)
Also, why would they not want this to be a 520 chain sprocket? That
would be lighter and as strong (but not as durable).
Mark
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #817
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, November 13 1998 Volume 01 : Number 818
1. Gecos Gigolo Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
2. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
3. Bob & Jean Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
4. Bill Heckel Subj: Re: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
5. Vintage Brake Subj: MC-Chassis Norton monocoque
6. Lauren Subj: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
7. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Engine plates
8. "Ben Bennett" Subj: MC-Chassis exhaust suckers
9. "Kelvin Blair" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Hardened sprockets
10. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis front sprockets
11. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis exhaust suckers
12. SCOTTA336@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
13. SCOTTA336@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis Better change your signature file, Ramblings, Invitations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:57:11 -0500
From: Gecos Gigolo
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
> Oh yeah, I forgot! That's exactly what it is. I'm building a bike around
> the VW engine, using the old 36hp as a base becasue of it's smaller
> dimensions...
Just in case there's anyone in search of a demented project, I've got a
spare adapter plate that will mount a BMW /2 gearbox to a VW engine. Make
an offer if you're interested.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:29:56 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Pistons for Aircooled cylinders
"Just in case there's anyone in search of a demented project, I've got a
spare adapter plate that will mount a BMW /2 gearbox to a VW engine.
Make
an offer if you're interested."
Oh darn! My spare BMW gearbox is a /6 type!
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:09:23 -0800
From: Bob & Jean
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma cutting
David Kath wrote:
> 1. Will plasma cutting be aceptable cutting out engine/tranny
> mounting plates from 1/4" 2024 T30 aluminum? (I have a supply on
> hand)
> 2. Is there a better alloy for engine plates?
>
> Seeley GS vintage RRr under construction.
David, I'm using 7075T6 myself as it is near to mild steel in strength,
but it may be a moot point as I understand if you entroduce enough load
reversals [big vibrating 500 single] you can reduce any alloy to the
lowest spec. Course, in my case I first have to get it running to
entroduce any load reversals:). Cheers Bob
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:56:13 -0500
From: Bill Heckel
Subject: Re: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
Our family ran welding shops around the country ( AmeriGas ) and I am not sure
if that is a real precaution. The cylinders themselves are full of acetone
that the acetylene is dissolved in so if they tip while the valve is open, the
acetone escapes. Also, if the valve is opened too much, the acetone will be
carried out with the gas.
AFIK, the acetone settles pretty fast so unless the cylinder has been on it's
side or upside down ( why ??? ) don't worry. Just be careful purging the lines
not to open the valve too much.
Bill
Lauren wrote:
>
>
> >Oxy bottles contain 3000+ psi, and a rupture in one of those would be quite
> >spectacular.
It is, we used to dispose of stuck-valve cylinders with a high powered rifle
from 100 feet away ( behind a dirt berm ). Very cool!!
> >
>
> My precaution about letting Acetylene settle for more than a few seconds
> has been challenged on a newsgroup. I don't have my welding books here at
> work, and after searching the 'net I have found no reference to this
> precaution (even on a hazardous material worksheet listing special
> precautions for acetylene cylinders) - so does anybody have an
> authoritative source for this precaution and a time to wait (I remember 30
> minutes if the cylinders have been transported via truck)? Am I spreading
> an urban myth that I was told numerous times in my welding classes.
>
> Thanks,
> LCB
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:20:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Vintage Brake
Subject: MC-Chassis Norton monocoque
Subject: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
>
>It has to have excessive pressure to go bang, but it does so by itself,
>either as a detonation wave or a deflagration wave, differing in rate of
>released energy by timescales of thousands to one.
>
Isn't this what happens when you get that high pitched squeal when the wave
goes back up the torch? We always shut the torch off as soon as possible.
Or is this something else?
I looked in my welding book when I got home last night and it had nothing
about danger from acetylene with regards to letting it settle, but it did
say that the acetone can contaminate the weld.
Thanks everybody for helping me clear this up.
I have been suffering from urban mythitis of late so I am now checking
everything out to be sure.
I almost made a post about contact lenses and MIG or TIG welding - heard
the *urban myth* a long time ago about high freq arc welding causing
contact lenses to weld to you eyeball - this is UNTRUE (I checked with the
Contact Lens MFG association) and is actually listed as an urban myth
somewhere on the 'net.
FWIW,
LCB
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:51:02 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Engine plates
> David, I'm using 7075T6 myself as it is near to mild steel in strength,
> but it may be a moot point as I understand if you entroduce enough load
> reversals [big vibrating 500 single] you can reduce any alloy to the
> lowest spec. Course, in my case I first have to get it running to
> entroduce any load reversals:). Cheers Bob
Hello Bob,
Keep an eye on the engine plates - I think that 7075T6, while
strong, can be prone to cracking.
This might be a good spot to use a bit of all-metal honeycomb sheet
- - I think it would prove both light and stiff.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:55:03 -0800
From: "Ben Bennett"
Subject: MC-Chassis exhaust suckers
Some time ago there was a discussion on exhaust suckers. I tried to make one
and ended up with an exhaust blower. My exhaust is from a BMW R75 two 1.5" X
24" pipes into a 2" X 28" with two right angle bends. I stuck a .75" pipe
about 6" in the first bend of the 2 inch pipe. The end of the sucker pipe
was probably right in the middle of the last bend. The last bend is about 6"
before the Glass pack 2" straight through muffler. So where did I go wrong?
TIA.
Ben Bennett
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:06:57 +0800
From: "Kelvin Blair"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Hardened sprockets
> The TL1000 list has been talking about trying to lighten an 18 tooth 530
> front sprocket. As it's hardened steel, they're having trouble getting
> it drilled.
>
Try using an ordinary garden variety Masonry Drill Bit. They will drill
materials as hard as 48 Rc fairly easily.
EDM or Spark erosion machines are common these days and there charge rates
are very reasonable and you can easily get any shape you want for
lightening.
There are also very cheap versions of EDMs made just for broken tap removal
they would be very economical for lightning holes.
EDMs either spark eroders or wire cut machines are really fast on aluminium
too, about 4 times the cutting/erosion speed of steel so if you have some
tricky Ali bits to do don't discount this machining method.
While on the subject of hardened sprockets, I once brought an ordinary mild
steel industrial sprocket blank (cost about AUS$12.00) and machined the
centre to suit my 600 Yamaha single. Then sent it off to the heat treaters
to be Case Hardened in a Brine process which greatly minimises distortion
over oil quenching. I have had that rear sprocket for 8 years now and it
has gone through 12 chains (thumpers are hard on chains) and the sprocket
still shows hardly any sign of wear or deformation. The heat treatment
cost AUS$30.00 (minimum charge rate). Before that I was replacing a
sprocket every time I replaced a chain!!
No wonder nobody sells case hardened sprockets as they would never sell you
another one!
Kelvin
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:25:59 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis front sprockets
PBI sprockets can probably custom make you 1 or a few if you want. They set
me up a custom offset countershaft sprocket when I needed it. Quality
piece.
Your local dealer can probably put you in touch, or if you can't find them I
will be able to dig it out of my stack of papers.
Jim
"Swiss"
Subject: MC-Chassis front sprockets
>The TL1000 list has been talking about trying to lighten an 18 tooth 530
>front sprocket. As it's hardened steel, they're having trouble getting
>it drilled.
>
>Seeing as you guys seem to have a lot of contacts in this sort of area,
>can anyone recommend a N American supplier either for lightweight
>sprockets in this size, or engineering shops who could safely lighten
>this sort of item?
>
>-- ______________________________ )+( _____________________________ --
>Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
>CN250/Helix/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
>8600 Bike Suppliers, Contacts & Addresses http://www.bikeweb.com
> > Contains less than 1% Juice <
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:33:36 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis exhaust suckers
> 24" pipes into a 2" X 28" with two right angle bends. I stuck a .75" pipe
> about 6" in the first bend of the 2 inch pipe. The end of the sucker pipe
> was probably right in the middle of the last bend. The last bend is about 6"
> before the Glass pack 2" straight through muffler. So where did I go wrong?
Hello Ben,
You only need about a 1/8" hole into the tailpipe to get some pull.
If you insert a tube into the pipe you need to make sure that the
tube is pointing well downstream ( V not L) so the exhaust passing
by is pulling air from the tube, not wanting to rush into it.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:56:09 EST
From: SCOTTA336@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
Plasma Cutters? Plasma Cutters?
^^ You can buy small 110V units in the $800-$1200 range. The $1200 range
gets you a pretty good one, up to the 3/8" range. When cutting sheet
metal with one you can actually "sketch" with moderate speed, much
faster than with a cutting torch, and a lot less heat involved.
>>
Pinch me, for I dream.
This is the coolest thing I have ever heard of. Can these be obtained used?
I must see one. Where may they be found?
I'm heading to a machine tool show on November 17th. Am I likely to see these
in the home-shop price range?
Scott A
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:56:07 EST
From: SCOTTA336@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Better change your signature file, Ramblings, Invitations.
Mostly Michael,
What do I see in today's mail but a Classic Motorbooks catalog with Bradley's
book in it! I hope that you made enough money out of the deal to have repaid
you for your fine effort in importing the thing first.
I don't think that I ever told you how happy I was with the book, and to have
found in you a kindred spirit. I probably don't spend as much time tinkering
at vitals of bikes as do you, but who knows, I might.
I've moved into a little looser line of work, doing medical device design
consulting. I can now set my own hours & days, and so have more ability to
travel. So I'm volunteering my efforts on a front-running AMA 250 National
Team, and I hope to be able to do some of the more serious engineering
tweaking on the bike next year. It's not a done deal, but if it does come to
pass I'll be getting fairly serious into the GP tech.
Given the level of knowledge demonstrated in your Chassis-Design list, I would
be remiss if I did not again suggest that there be such a list for engine
design. Look at some of the current threads... 6-stroke engine, what piston
fits an XS 650. If I were you, I'd dump the lightweight GT list. All the
modern stuff is covered on the 125GP mailing list, and I fear you may someday
se
I'd do it myself, but don't know how. Is it difficult? Give me the pointers
I need to set up such a mailing list & I'll stop nagging you to do it for me!
Hee-hee!
Does it strike you that the Chassis Design list is somewhat slanted towards
older or non-Sportbike machinery? I don't know if this is so. Is the modern
extruded aluminum downtube design beyond the realm of the do-it-yourselfer?
Or perhaps you're just saying that the typical Japanese Sportbike style of
frame is surpassable by the educated & capable amateur with more time to care.
I'd like to think the latter.
Come on by the shop if you find yourself in Sunnyvale. 650 867 3220. Oh, and
that goes for all of the participating listers.
Hoyt, you in particular intrigue me. I used to be absolutely certain that you
were a dickhead, back in the Dale Alexander Flame Wars of yore. Now I'd be
happy to have you over for coffee. 'Course Dale's welcome, too.
You'll find in addition to a fine Cafe Mocha, an almost entirely Male garage.
I've got a couple of token four-strokes for you. Four or five real bikes
besides. Bridgeport, Hardinge, gas torch (beginning welder, me), binocular
microscope, solvent tank, ultrasonic cleaner. Not a real dedicated machine
shop by any stretch of the imagination, but a damned well-endowed garage.
Harrumph.
Thanks for and to the list.
- -Scott A
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #818
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Saturday, November 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 819
1. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
2. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Better change your signature file, Ramblings, Invitations.
3. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
4. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Better change your signature file, Ramblings, Invitations.
5. "john.mead" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis front sprockets
6. Craig Kenfield Subj: Re: MC-Chassis exhaust suckers
7. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Ramblings
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 21:12:11 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Plasma Cutters?
SCOTTA336@aol.com wrote:
> This is the coolest thing I have ever heard of.
> Can these be obtained used?
Probably not yet - they seem to be about where small MIG
units were when they first came out, in terms of market
placement.
> I must see one. Where may they be found?
I was at the local welder shop (South Bay Welding
Supply) pricing up ox-acet equip't and they had
plasma cutters all over the place. I'll take a
closer look next time I go there...
What I'm wondering is will the power supply
work for some kind of mini TIG torch? (Is there
a TIG equivalent to the "aircraft torch" end of
the size range? I plan to be welding exhaust systems
and similar light gage applications.)
> I'm heading to a machine tool show on November 17th.
> Am I likely to see these
quite likely!
> in the home-shop price range?
My impression was they were ~$1-2k?
As I said, I'll have to look closer.
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:38:30 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Better change your signature file, Ramblings, Invitations.
Scott,
Although it seems that the Alum. extruded frame is out of the range of
most of us, they are being built. Brown Bros. Racing in the northwest is
making dirtbike/MX frames from it. They are using 4-stroke single engines
for off-road use and they are pretty trick. They did mention in one of
their early interviews that welding on the stock Japanese frames was a
problem, and they had to look real hard to find the right alloy material for
their frames.
Actually, like the Ducati and many others it is often possible to build a
lighter ladder style of frame out of good steel tubing.
Jim
"Swiss"
Subject: MC-Chassis Better change your signature file, Ramblings,
Invitations.
>Does it strike you that the Chassis Design list is somewhat slanted towards
>older or non-Sportbike machinery? I don't know if this is so. Is the
modern
>extruded aluminum downtube design beyond the realm of the do-it-yourselfer?
>Or perhaps you're just saying that the typical Japanese Sportbike style of
>frame is surpassable by the educated & capable amateur with more time to
care.
>I'd like to think the latter.
>
>-Scott A
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 19:26:01
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: RE: LONG MC-Chassis shopping for oxy torch
At 02:59 PM 11/13/98 -0800, you wrote:>
>Isn't this what happens when you get that high pitched squeal when the wave
>goes back up the torch? We always shut the torch off as soon as possible.
>Or is this something else?
That's possibly something similar if not the same hting. The more oxy the
higher prob of a bang, and the squealing always happened to me when I had
oxy way up.
>
>I looked in my welding book when I got home last night and it had nothing
>about danger from acetylene with regards to letting it settle, but it did
>say that the acetone can contaminate the weld.
Several standards refer to settling times and gas delivery rates, to
prevent the acetone from being delivered also. It merely makes the torch
act very unstably with irregular burning.
>I almost made a post about contact lenses and MIG or TIG welding - heard
>the *urban myth* a long time ago about high freq arc welding causing
>contact lenses to weld to you eyeball - this is UNTRUE (I checked with the
>Contact Lens MFG association) and is actually listed as an urban myth
>somewhere on the 'net.
I heard it years ago, tried be-dunking it and got flamed by the ignorant.
But the fact is if an arc could do it the sun would do it every day, right?
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:53:33
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Better change your signature file, Ramblings, Invitations.
At 11:56 PM 11/13/98 EST, you wrote:
>Hoyt, you in particular intrigue me. I used to be absolutely certain that
you
>were a dickhead, back in the Dale Alexander Flame Wars of yore. Now I'd be
>happy to have you over for coffee. 'Course Dale's welcome, too.
Hi Scott nice of you to write. It'll have to be tea, I'm afraid.
Dale and I probably just too much alike, tons of relevant experience
directed toward slightly different objectives. Once we both figured out the
other guy had some points to make, no problem.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:43:46 -0800 (PST)
From: "john.mead"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis front sprockets
Sproket Specialities, in California, makes both front and rear sprokets
for just about every on and offroad motorcycle. They list lightened sprokets
for many bikes. I do not have their cataloge handy but I think they should
make sprokets for the TL1000.
John Mead
- ----------
> The TL1000 list has been talking about trying to lighten an 18 tooth 530
> front sprocket. As it's hardened steel, they're having trouble getting
> it drilled.
>
> Seeing as you guys seem to have a lot of contacts in this sort of area,
> can anyone recommend a N American supplier either for lightweight
> sprockets in this size, or engineering shops who could safely lighten
> this sort of item?
>
> -- ______________________________ )+( _____________________________ --
> Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:07:11 -0600
From: Craig Kenfield
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis exhaust suckers
Ben,
I don't remember the previous discussion on this, nor do I completely
understand your set-up, so I figured that makes me an expert on this
question!
But seriously, at my previous place of employment we made (among other
things) exhaust scavengers for off road equipment that worked in
conjunction with the intake to pre-clean dust from the inlet flow. The way
to do it is to put a venturi in a straight section of pipe. The pipe that
you want the negative gage pressure in is then inserted into the end of the
venturi. The location of the end of this pipe relative to the smallest
section of the venturi is critical, though I don't remember the exact
optimum position for maximum vacuum... I want to say it was around .75-1"
for the stuff we were doing... It will vary with the size tubes. Do it
right and the deadhead vacuum can be more than the backpressure of the
exhaust system. I seem to remember they try for 20-40" of water for vacuum
(with no flow), and usually less than 36" for backpressure on the off-road
stuff. (Note this is "off-road" as in mining, construction, and
agriculture, so we're talking 6-10" dia tubes)
Simply sticking a smaller tube into a larger one may not produce good
results. Case in point; a certain well-known off road equipment
manufacturer (we'll call them "Adult Kitten") was building a new piece of
equipment that used a scavenged air intake for dust seperation. They got
quotes for the various exhaust components and along the way one company
said "Hey, we can build the outlet tube for a lot less that those other
guys! All it is is a large tube with one 90 degree bend and a smaller tube
welded onto the straight section" They built the parts, installed
everything on the million dollar machine, started it up, and soon found
they needed to service the air filter every couple hours. So, they called
us to find out why the intake filter was quickly filled with diesel soot.
Whoops. Seems the tube boys didn't do too good a job reverse engineering
the outlet tube, and had left out the venturi. No wonder they could build
it cheaper! Anyway, the exhaust gasses melted the valve that's supposed to
prevent any reverse flow, and soon they were pumping exhaust into the
filter.
And now that I've said that, I suddenly remember a few cases where we DID
simply stick one tube into another to syphon out condensation. In this
case, a small tube is inserted at a 90 degree angle into a passtube of a
muffler (we're talking roughly a .25" dia tube inside a 1.5-2.0" dia tube)
so the flow would blow across the top and create a suction. This worked
very well for the intended purpose (eliminating a drain hole and the
associated noise from a muffler) but of course didn't flow anywhere near
the volume that a venturi set-up would.
I'm not sure if any of this info helps in your case... I'm assuming you're
trying to create a negative pressure in the crankcase, and I don't know how
much flow you need to do that. In any case, if I were trying to exploit
some aspect of the flow, I don't think I'd want to be using the flow in the
middle of a bend. I'd also question if you need a tube as large as .75"
diameter...
- -Craig
At 3:55 PM -0800 11/13/98, Ben Bennett wrote:
>Some time ago there was a discussion on exhaust suckers. I tried to make one
>and ended up with an exhaust blower. My exhaust is from a BMW R75 two 1.5" X
>24" pipes into a 2" X 28" with two right angle bends. I stuck a .75" pipe
>about 6" in the first bend of the 2 inch pipe. The end of the sucker pipe
>was probably right in the middle of the last bend. The last bend is about 6"
>before the Glass pack 2" straight through muffler. So where did I go wrong?
>TIA.
>Ben Bennett
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:04:55 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Ramblings
> What do I see in today's mail but a Classic Motorbooks catalog with Bradley's
> book in it! I hope that you made enough money out of the deal to have repaid
> you for your fine effort in importing the thing first.
Hello Scott,
It's always nice to get up and have the first email I open in the
morning full of fulsome praise. Thanks - I do very much appreciate
it.
John's book has been doing OK - Motorbooks gets the books from me
(I'm still the sole distributor for North America) and has been
pretty good this year about having the book displayed prominently in
the catalogs. Motorcycle Consumer News tells me they will have a
review on the book coming out in the January issue (regretfully,
missing the holiday buying frenzy) rating the book highly, and I got
an email from the folks at Cycle Canada a couple of days ago saying
they were putting a review together too.
Speaking of Volume 2, John has asked me to stop quoting any due date
other than "it will be done when it is done". He isn't a full time
writer, and while he's gotten some work done on the book he's running
into other things that are conspiring to occupy a bunch of his time.
Besides, he says he wants to get his 250 Montesa Impala Sport vintage
roadracer project going before spending more time on the book. These
guys, always fiddling with their motorbikes . . .
I've got plenty of books on hand at the moment, so everyone who
hasn't gotten a copy check out the info on the website and please
get your orders in now, so I'm not swamped trying to mail out stuff
right before the holidays.
> I don't think that I ever told you how happy I was with the book, and to have
> found in you a kindred spirit. I probably don't spend as much time tinkering
> at vitals of bikes as do you, but who knows, I might.
See how clean my hands are? I've been terribly slothful in re garage
activities, though I did recently finally sort out the modifications needed to
put a BSA unit single RITA on the Honda CB160/175 twins. That will
let me get one out to a guy building a 175 for AHRMA GP200+, and I
need another one for my CB160 trials project. I've had some Benelli
Sei owners show some interest in an ignition, though it would have to
be a remote drive unit like the race ignitions that Mistral used to
supply for the Honda/Kawasaki four cylinder race engines. Hard to
say if there'd be enough demand from the Sei owners to justify the
time to prototype something.
As to kindred spirits - I'll second that emotion in re all of you on
the list. It was great fun getting to meet Tony recently, and I'm
looking forward to putting faces with some of the names for the rest
of you too. I've really enjoyed having the info from the list, and
you've all been very good about general list etiquette, keeping me
from having to be an overbearing list administrator.
> I've moved into a little looser line of work, doing medical device design
> consulting. I can now set my own hours & days, and so have more ability to
> travel. So I'm volunteering my efforts on a front-running AMA 250 National
> Team, and I hope to be able to do some of the more serious engineering
> tweaking on the bike next year. It's not a done deal, but if it does come to
> pass I'll be getting fairly serious into the GP tech.
It is always good to see someone getting more time to do fun stuff -
keep us posted on anything interesting you learn with the team.
> Given the level of knowledge demonstrated in your Chassis-Design list, I would
> be remiss if I did not again suggest that there be such a list for engine
> design. Look at some of the current threads... 6-stroke engine, what piston
> fits an XS 650. If I were you, I'd dump the lightweight GT list. All the
> modern stuff is covered on the 125GP mailing list, and I fear you may someday
> se
I'm still unsure about an engine list. The chassis stuff didn't
really seem to be very prevelant on other lists, while I see lots of
engine discussion on the Thumper, XS650, Guzzi, 125GP, 2 stroke,
Brit-Iron etc lists. Some of the engine stuff discussed here has
been crossposted from other lists. I also fear that you'd have to
have different lists for 2 and 4 strokes, as there seems to be a lot
of people interested only in one or the other, making it hard to
have a combined list. The two-stroke list already covers the 2
stroke stuff pretty well. The Guzzi and Brit-Iron lists are where
the hardcore minute details for the Guzzi and Olde English engines
are hashed and rehashed. I think there is some sort of EFI
list/newsgroup already, and I'm not sure I'd want an engine design
list getting cluttered up with a bunch of car guys talking about the
latest mods for building a Chevy V8.
I've got no problem with the occasional engine topic surfacing, as
long as it is interesting to me and not just another "what is the
best ignition advancer to buy for my Goof2" type of post.
I'm not sure what you were going to say at the end - it looks like
part of the message was lost. The LRR list has been pretty moribund,
though there was a bit of thumper RR building stuff recently on it.
I figured the 125GP list had siphoned off all the modern 125 riders,
and the vintage guys have the VRR list to chat on.
> I'd do it myself, but don't know how. Is it difficult? Give me the pointers
> I need to set up such a mailing list & I'll stop nagging you to do it for me!
> Hee-hee!
First, you'll need to get an ISP account someplace other than AOL. I
think most ISPs these days offer lists to their subscribers either
free (fewer as time goes on I believe) or for a nominal sum/month.
My ISP, Sirius Connections, seems to have been pretty reliable the
last few years, and if you want some info on how to set up with them
send me a note off list. You could be up and running in less than a
week.
> Does it strike you that the Chassis Design list is somewhat slanted towards
> older or non-Sportbike machinery? I don't know if this is so. Is the modern
> extruded aluminum downtube design beyond the realm of the do-it-yourselfer?
> Or perhaps you're just saying that the typical Japanese Sportbike style of
> frame is surpassable by the educated & capable amateur with more time to care.
> I'd like to think the latter.
I think the latter, along with the equipment needed for a steel tube
frame being much more in reach of the hobbyist. Also, I think that
many people on this list aren't quite as dazzled by the marketing
hype from the manufacturers and magazines, and are more willing to
look at what really works and what doesn't. Besides, it is the
older stuff that is more likely to really benefit from a new chassis
- - to give credit where due the modern sportbikes in stock form seem
to be able to go much faster than most people are capable of riding
them.
>Come on by the shop if you find yourself in Sunnyvale. 650 867
>3220. Oh, and that goes for all of the participating listers.
I'd like to pay you a visit sometime - it has been a while since
we've gotten together for a chat. The problem seems to be way too
much stuff to do on the weekends (much of which I seem to avoid
doing anyway). Then again, if I were all caught up and had
everything running I'd probably want to go out riding on the
weekends. I'm certainly open to visits from Bay Area listers too -
just drop me a note in advance and we'll set something up.
> ultrasonic cleaner.
I'll definitely remember you've got one of those.
Oh yeah, what needs to change in the sig file?
Thanks again Scott.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #819
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Sunday, November 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 820
1. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Better change your signature file, Ramblings, In
2. "Brent Prindle" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis CAD software
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis CAD software
4. David Weinshenker Subj: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
5. geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. ) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
6. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
7. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
8. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
9. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
10. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
11. Doug Pfitzner Subj: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:21:28 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Better change your signature file, Ramblings, In
FYI - I just got my copy of the AFM newsletter, and Scott Anderson is
shown as haven taken 2nd overall for the year in Formula III (125GP).
Congrats Scott!
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 20:43:05 -0800
From: "Brent Prindle"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis CAD software
On the other side of the CAD debate, does anyone have any recommendations
for a good CAM programme? Primarily for 2.5-axis milling, but would like to
be able to go to 4 axis in the future, and lathe as well.
Seems like all of the decent ones are in the $10-20k region, and still have
major shortcomings. At that price I expect some pretty awsome product!
- -oo
BrentP@msn.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Moore
To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
Date: Thursday, November 12, 1998 8:17 PM
Subject: MC-Chassis CAD software
>If you go to
>http://www.intergraph.com/imaginele/
>
>you can request a free copy of Intergraph's "Imagination Engineer LE"
>2D CAD software. It will be included in the Win98 Resource CD. It
>is a "light edition" of their regular 2D program.
>
>For those of you who don't have anything it may be worth a try.
>
>I wouldn't mind if it is good enough to replace the DOS version of
>ACAD that I have. I don't use that many commands anyway, and maybe
>the lite Win version will have acceptable functionality. The full
>package got a pretty good writeup in an article I saw recently.
>
>Cheers,
>Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:00:21 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis CAD software
Speaking of CAD, I just noticed that the last message from the
Zanzanis included a drawing of a 250 MotoBi engine in a twin spar
frame. The SSSA rear looks like a 650 Hawk wheel/arm, and the front
wheel looks like a 600F2 item.
Pretty cute, and if they give me the OK I'll stick it up on the
website.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 22:40:13 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
Well, I'm fine with giving the engine honorary
status as part of the chassis... lots of the
motor tech stuff here is real interesting!
Some while back someone was asking about inexpensive
dyno load devices, more for something to load the engine
while tinkering with fuel mapping than for extremely
precise actual measurements of power...
Why not use a large ventilating fan, as found in
big air-conditioning systems for industrial and
office buildings?
It would have the following characteristics:
1. torque load is proportional to the square
of the RPM, so a variable or multiple ratio drive
(the engine's built-in transmission plus a machine-
tool-style adjustable v-belt drive...) would enable
one fan to function at multiple engine load/speed
points. Lowering the overall gearing would allow
the engine to rev higher for a given absorbed power.
2. for a given drive ratio, the power absorbed
at a given engine speed can also be changed by
throttling the airflow through the fan, which
will reduce the load accordingly.
3. the airflow from the fan could be directed to
the radiator or cylinders of the engine under
test, for cooling purposes.
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 07:18:00 GMT
From: geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. )
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
>Why not use a large ventilating fan, as found in
>big air-conditioning systems for industrial and
>office buildings?
Fans, even big ones don't actually take a lot of power, and there are
limits to the tip speed. I can supply some figures if anyone is
interested, but a 800mm 8 bladed fan at ~1400rpm is (IIRC) 6-7kw at a
20 degree blade pitch (lots) and is LOUD. 100dBA plus. You would also
have to find some way of restricting the flow to increase the static
pressure in order to get the fan to draw the power and be in the
optimum part of the fan curve.
I design fans and ventilation systems for a living.
If anyone is interested, the first pics of my DIY dyno are up on my
dyno page. It is currently in bits while painting, but more pics, info
and materials list coming soon!
Geoff
- --
Radar detector FAQ, Forte Agent automation FAQ, bathroom fan FAQ
and THE WORLDS BEST CHRISTMAS PUDDING RECIPE
are at http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/
REMOVE "DELETEME" SPAMBLOCKER FROM ADDRESS TO REPLYTO USENET POSTINGS
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:41:34 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
Geoff Merryweather. wrote:
>
> >Why not use a large ventilating fan, as found in
> >big air-conditioning systems for industrial and
> >office buildings?
>
> Fans, even big ones don't actually take a lot of power, and there are
> limits to the tip speed. I can supply some figures if anyone is
> interested, but a 800mm 8 bladed fan at ~1400rpm is (IIRC) 6-7kw at a
> 20 degree blade pitch (lots) and is LOUD. 100dBA plus. You would also
> have to find some way of restricting the flow to increase the static
> pressure in order to get the fan to draw the power and be in the
> optimum part of the fan curve.
I was thinking more of the centrifugal flow "squirrel-cage"
variety... I;ve seen some pretty big ones (10-50 hp?) They
run at a few hundred RPM, so need a large multiple-V-belt
drive from a standard 1725-rpm induction motor.
- -dave w
- -dave w
> I design fans and ventilation systems for a living.
> If anyone is interested, the first pics of my DIY dyno are up on my
> dyno page. It is currently in bits while painting, but more pics, info
> and materials list coming soon!
> Geoff
>
> --
> Radar detector FAQ, Forte Agent automation FAQ, bathroom fan FAQ
> and THE WORLDS BEST CHRISTMAS PUDDING RECIPE
> are at http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/
> REMOVE "DELETEME" SPAMBLOCKER FROM ADDRESS TO REPLYTO USENET POSTINGS
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:37:26
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
At 07:18 AM 11/15/98 GMT, you wrote:
>20 degree blade pitch (lots) and is LOUD. 100dBA plus. You would also
>have to find some way of restricting the flow to increase the static
>pressure in order to get the fan to draw the power and be in the
>optimum part of the fan curve.
Fans of all types draw LESS power when their inlet is shut down. They draw
less when the exhaust is shut down too. IOW, throttling it will make load
less. Why? Because the power is consumed by moving air and shutting it off
means moving less. To illustrate this, shut off the hose or outlet of a
vacuum cleaner and observe motor pitch changes.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:51:54 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
In an old Cycle Guide, Bob Braverman made a reference to Don Vesco's
original dyno for development of the Yam twins as ridden by Carruthers and
others. Vesco was using a GMC supercharger as the load cell. You now know
all that I know on Vesco's setup. The question is how did he adjust the
load? Did he have a plate bolted on the outlet with a variable orifice? Was
he using an air pressure guage to get some numbers for power judgement? Did
he have the blower on a pillow block arrangement and an arm hooked to a
strain gauge?
On a more practical note, I have just received a copy of Stuska's catalog.
For about $2200.00 you can get the basic bits to build a real water brake
dyno. GD knows of a company that can supply the computer bits to upgrade
the setup to modern data acquistion. You would still have to build the
CHASSIS. {Get it?, yuk yuk}.
Now if I could sell some 4stroke race bikes I would be ready to order.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:48:46 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
> Now if I could sell some 4stroke race bikes I would be ready to order.
Hello Ray,
The most important part of the dyno is a well-ventilated sound-proof
room.
When Craig had his shop in Chico he ran his dyno a fair amount, and
the neighbors in the small industrial area weren't bothered by the
1000cc Kawasaki or 750 Laverda noise. However, when we put my CR216
Honda engine on (~138 db) we immediately had visitors wondering what
in the world he was running.
Also, we dynoed the Laverda during winter, and the dyno cell was the
warm spot in the shop, so we spent a fair amount of time in it
between runs. Later that night both Craig and I got quite sick -
carbon monoxide poisoning is definitely something to avoid if you
can.
The dyno Craig is trying to get set up is, I think, a Hartzell. He
says it looks to have some sort of oil-filled torque convertor load
cell, probably along the lines of the torque convertor dynos that
Tony has mentioned in the past. It is set up with a rear-wheel
friction driven roller now, but Craig will change it over to chain
drive with the engine mounted directly to the dyno.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 06:39:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: MC-Chassis engines & dynos
- -> Why not use a large ventilating fan, as found in
- -> big air-conditioning systems for industrial and
- -> office buildings?
A fan is almost ideal. At higher outputs, an airplane prop would work.
The not-ideal parts are size (though probably no bigger than a "real"
dyno, and mostly *noise*. For those of you out in the country or
working in an industrial park you could live with it, but for the
average schmoe in a housing project, the cops would be hanging on your
door by the second run.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 05:36:36 +1000
From: Doug Pfitzner
Subject: MC-Chassis - shopping for oxy torch / Acetylene (longish)
On 1998-11-14 Hoyt said:
>At 02:59 PM 11/13/98 -0800, you wrote:>
>>Isn't this what happens when you get that high pitched squeal when
>>the wave goes back up the torch? We always shut the torch off as
>>soon as possible. Or is this something else?
>That's possibly something similar if not the same hting. The more
>oxy the higher prob of a bang, and the squealing always happened to
>me when I had oxy way up.
This is actually a flame flashback, happens where the gas velocity at
the tip orifice is momentarily less than the flame burning velocity
(0.8-2.48 m/s for O-A flames).
>>I looked in my welding book when I got home last night and it had
>>nothing about danger from acetylene with regards to letting it
>>settle, but it did say that the acetone can contaminate the weld.
>Several standards refer to settling times and gas delivery rates, to
>prevent the acetone from being delivered also. It merely makes the
>torch act very unstably with irregular burning.
This subject has come up on both the sci.chem and
rec.crafts.metalworking newsgroups this year. Don Haarmann
posted a really good rundown, which follows in part.
- ---------------------------------------
From: "donald haarmann"
Newsgroups: sci.chem
Subject: Re: acetylene dangers ??
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 19:23:17 -0400
Borrowed [scanned and you know what that means!] from:
The Oxy-Acetylene Handbook: A Manual on Oxy-Acetylene Welding and
Cutting Procedures.
Union Carbide - Linde Division 1976
Acetylene Cylinders
We mentioned earlier that free acetylene is somewhat unstable, and
that safety codes therefore bar its use at pressures over 15 psig (1 bar).
How then are we able to transport it in cylinders under a pressure of 250
psi (17.2 bars) or more? You might say that we do it by applying the
principle "divide and conquer". First, we dissolve the acetylene in acetone,
a solvent which will retain a lot of acetylene at normal atmosphere
pressure, and a great deal more at elevated pressures. We don't just put
that solution in an ordinary cylinder, however, because acetone expands a
lot as it dissolves more and more acetylene, and shrinks as pressure is
lowered and gas withdrawn from the solution. Instead, we fill a cylinder
with a rigid but porous material. The pores are very fine. Should free
acetylene in one pore happen to decompose through shock of some kind,
or exposure of the cylinder to fire, the energy released will be soaked up
by the filler, rather than transferred to the acetylene in the next pore.
This is how an acetylene cylinder is made. First, the cylinder shell is
constructed from pieces of deep-drawn steel plate, welded together. A
foot ring, and a head ring (where used) are attached, and a forged steel
valve "spud" is welded in place at the top of the cylinder. The cylinder is
then packed with filler, in a moist condition, and placed in an oven for
several days, until a weight check shows that all the moisture has been
baked out of the filler. Finally, the cylinder valve and safety devices are
installed, and a metered amount of acetone is pumped into the cylinder.
The exact amount of acetone which may be added depends on the
internal volume of the cylinder shell and the per cent porosity of the filler.
There can be a substantial difference between the acetone and acetylene
capacities of old and new cylinders of the same apparent size, since the
latest calcium silicate fillers have greater porosity than fillers made up
principally from other ingredients, as used until the 1940's.
Dissolved acetylene cylinders are filled to a maximum pressure of 250
psi (17.2 bars) at 20*C (70*F). They are not equipped with rupture-disk
safety devices, as are oxygen and nitrogen gas cylinders, but with
fusible metal safety plugs or with valves having channels filled with fusible
metal. The fusible metal will melt at approximately the temperature of
boiling water (100'C or 212*F). Small cylinders (the 10 cu. ft. and 40 cu. ft.
sizes) have one fusible metal channel located in the cylinder valve. The
large cylinders normally used in welding and cutting, with capacities
ranging up to nearly 400 cf of acetylene, have from two to four plugs,
located in both top and bottom of the cylinders. If a cylinder is exposed to
a fire, one or more safety devices will melt and allow the acetylene and
acetone to escape and burn gradually. If it did not have such a safety
device, a full acetylene cylinder exposed to a fire would rupture and
release its contents all at once, perhaps explosively. Because of the low
melting point of the fusible metal, you should never use boiling water to
melt out any ice that has formed in the top of a recessed head cylinder.
Warm water is okay; boiling water can cause trouble.
Here are two very important things to remember about dissolved
acetylene cylinders: First, do not withdraw acetylene from a cylinder when
it is not in an upright position. If you do, some of the acetone may be
forced out, as liquid droplets, through the cylinder valve. This is not really
a safety problem, but may cause erratic operation of the torch. Always
store acetylene cylinders in the upright position, too. If by mistake, a
cylinder has been stored horizontally, let it stand upright for a while before
withdrawing any acetylene. Second, do not draw acetylene from the
cylinder at a rate in excess of one-seventh the normal full capacity of that
cylinder. From a large cylinder with a capacity of 350-390 cf (10-11 M3),
the withdrawal rate should not exceed 55-60 cfh (less than 2M3/hr) except
for very short periods. If acetylene is withdrawn too rapidly, quite a lot of
acetone may come with it, in vapor or droplet form, and the cylinder may
cool down so much that it cannot sustain the high rate. This will affect
your torch flame, and will mean that your supplier must replenish the
acetone in the cylinder more frequently.
Many acetylene cylinder valves are not equipped with handwheels, and
must be operated by a wrench. The wrench should always be left in place
while the cylinder valve is open. Further, acetylene cylinders valves need
not and should not be opened wide; one and one-half turns should be the
limit.
Two different outlet connections are used in the U.S. on large acetylene
cylinders: the CGA 510 connection, with left-hand internal threads in the
cylinder valve outlet, and the CGA 300 connection, with right-hand exter-
nal threads on the valve outlet. The CGA 300 connection, and the CGA
520 and CGA 200 connections used on small cylinders (40 and 10 cu. ft.
capacity) are exceptions to the general rule that all fuel gas connections
used in connection with welding and cutting equipment carry left-hand
threads.
In an oxygen cylinder there is a precise relationship between cylinder
pressure and cylinder contents. A standard oxygen cylinder that contains
244 cf at 2200 psi and 70' (6.5 M3 at 152 bars at 20'C) will contain 122 cf
(3.25 M3) when the pressure has dropped to 1100 psi at 70'F (76 bars at
20'C). In the dissolved acetylene cylinder, the relationship between pres-
sure and remaining acetylene content is less precise. An acetylene
cylinder is not precisely half-full when its pressure has dropped to 125 psi
(half the pressure of a full cylinder). If the cylinder temperature is 70'F
(20'C), the amount of acetylene remaining in the cylinder is slightly less
than half the "full" content. However, change in temperature affects the
pressure in an acetylene cylinder at a much faster rate than it affects the
pressure in an oxygen cylinder. Pressure in an oxygen cylinder will go up
or down only about 4 percent for each 20-degree change in temperature
(F) from 70 deg. A full acetylene cylinder which has a pressure of 250 psi
at 70'F (17.2 bars at 20*C) will have a pressure of 315 psi at 90'F (21.7
bars at 31'C and a pressure of 190 psi at 50'F (13 bars at 9'C). You must
always take temperature into account when estimating how much
acetylene the cylinder contains.
donald j haarmann
- ------------------------------------
Keep the rubber side down,
Doug
[Sometime industrial chemist, chemical engineer and motorcycle tinkerer]
Net-Tamer V 1.12 Beta - Test Drive
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #820
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