Motorcycle Chassis Design Digest #801-810
MC-Chassis-Dgst Thursday, October 29 1998 Volume 01 : Number 801
1. jpanstr@ravenet.com (John Anstreicher) Subj: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
2. Bill Heckel Subj: Re: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis Hola Amigos
4. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis (Fwd) Magnesium or aluminium sand castings for motorsport - mo
5. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
6. Bill Heckel Subj: Re: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
7. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis reminders and some comments on various list posts
8. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis My visit with Tony
9. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis reminders and some comments on various list posts
10. "Glenn Thomson" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis reminders and some comments on various list post
11. hpbygd Subj: Re: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:34:50 -0500
From: jpanstr@ravenet.com (John Anstreicher)
Subject: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
I have not received any posts from MC-Chassis
so I decided to check and see if everything was still
working. Please pardon the intrusion.
JPA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:50:44 -0500
From: Bill Heckel
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
Wow, neither had I.
I assumed a server burp and waited for the flood.
I guess everyone is out riding.
Have you ever seem that Sci Fi movie where you are the last person on the
planet....
John Anstreicher wrote:
>
> I have not received any posts from MC-Chassis
> so I decided to check and see if everything was still
> working. Please pardon the intrusion.
>
> JPA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:10:46 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis Hola Amigos
I'm back from Spain and have had a bit of rest and will start plowing
through the accumulated mail/digests for the last two weeks.
I hope the lists ran OK while I was gone, and the temporary list
administrators didn't find their jobs unduly burdensome. Thanks to
you all for watching the lists while I was gone. Also, I've reset the
lists to have me as the administrator so you shouldn't get any more
list-related admin traffic unless there is something working its way
through your mail queue.
For the three people who asked me to watch for M/C related stuff while
I was in Spain (m/c postcards, expired license plates, and literature
on the Mototrans 24 Horrors), be advised that other than the Guardia
on their new BMW twins I saw very few motorcycles in the last two
weeks, much less any of the stuff you asked me to watch for.
I did see a horde of scooters and mopeds, everyone of which seemed to
be equipped with an expansion chamber. We even had a scooter crash
into the roadside (actually in the road) tables at a restaurante we
were eating at Tuesday night. Luckily, those tables weren't occupied.
I'll be back with you after I've caught up on the last two weeks
traffic.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:44:17 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis (Fwd) Magnesium or aluminium sand castings for motorsport - mo
This should be of interest to some of you:
- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From: "Alistair Clinton - UK Racing Castings"
To:
Subject: Magnesium or aluminium sand castings for motorsport - motorcycles
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:17:14 +0100
My name is Alistair Clinton and my company is UK Racing Castings
We are a light alloy sand casting foundry specialising in motorsport
(both historic and modern racing) manufacturing high quality sand
castings in Magnesium or Aluminium alloys.
Specialising in motorsport we cater to low volume orders (including
one
offs) as well as larger batch orders.
If you ever have any requirements for sand castings, pattern work,
and
machining services please give us a call.
For further details check out our website on
www.btinternet.com/~ukracingcastings
Hope this is of interest
Alistair Clinton E-mail Ukracingcastings@btinternet.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:37:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
- -> I guess everyone is out riding.
- ->
- -> Have you ever seem that Sci Fi movie where you are the last person on
- -> the planet....
Charlton Heston, "The Omega Man." The part where he rides the
motorcycle up the steps; it had never occurred to me, for some reason,
that you could do that, though it was obvious. I had to go try it as
soon as the movie was over.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:55:38 -0500
From: Bill Heckel
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
I actually got a Honda CL350 stuck on some narrow steps trying to ride up
them. They were pretty steep and had a railing in the middle. I made it 2/3
of the way up until the bike stopped with both front and back wheels exactly
spaced to climb steps together and the back tire just spun. Soon, the rear
went to the left and the bike wedged itself under the railing. I was a bit
embarrased as I was showing off and had to ask my buddy to help. I was young
and dumb at the time, I'm not young anymore, I know what steps I can ride up.
I also got a 600 Ninja stuck on wet grass in a slight depression while taking a
shortcut but that is a bit different. Tire didn't sink, it just had NO
traction.
Bill
Dave Williams wrote:
>
> -> I guess everyone is out riding.
> ->
> -> Have you ever seem that Sci Fi movie where you are the last person on
> -> the planet....
>
> Charlton Heston, "The Omega Man." The part where he rides the
> motorcycle up the steps; it had never occurred to me, for some reason,
> that you could do that, though it was obvious. I had to go try it as
> soon as the movie was over.
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:36:18 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis reminders and some comments on various list posts
I've noticed that some of the recent posts now include a copy of the
post in HTML format. Can those of you who are doing that please
figure out how to turn that feature of your email editor off, so as
to eliminate the duplicate copy of the message?
Also, a little more time stripping out unneeded quoted text would be
appreciated.
Yousef - you can also do some small press jobs with a good sized
bench vise, particularly if you are doing light aluminum. A bead
roller is the way to go to make a bead, but for the indentations in
the frame spars you'll probably want to make some dies. Hammer
forming would be another technique to consider - Fournier's books
cover that pretty well.
Scott - thanks for posting the weights on the RS125 - I'm glad to see
my 40-45# guesstimate for the motor (in comparison to the lightened
EX250 engine) was in the ballpark.
Hoyt - thanks for the post on making the triple clamps. If anyone
else makes something interesting I think posts like these are very
helpful as many of the people on the list probably haven't attempted
to make too many things, and a detailed post on a major chassis part
will give them a much better idea of how to proceed. Those of us
who have more experience with making stuff are always interested to
see how someone else has done it in case they have a good tip or two
that we can use to reduce the aggro in our projects. You should
give the fabricated sheetmetal triple clamps a try one of these days
- - I think you'd like the results.
Ray - more info on the dual cable brake lever would be VERY
appreciated - I'll post the info to the vintage roadrace list, as the
Suzuki GT750 front brake levers (which had a nice balance beam built
into them) are getting harder to find.
Thanks,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:17:55 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis My visit with Tony
Several of you have asked me about visiting Tony while in Spain, so
here's a bit of info:
The highlight of my 2 weeks in Spain was the 2.5 days we got to
spend with Tony and Aileen. Tony very graciously arranged time off
from his busy work schedule and he and Aileen squired us around to
some of the local sites.
Tony rummaged around and found some bits for me to look at. These
included the 4v head for the watercooled Aermacchi engine, the
magnesium piston from the 2v Aermacchi, the rotary valve head and
lower end for his 125cc two stroke, and various QL parts: front
wheel, ISO disc, cast lower suspension arm and pattern, an upright
and a spindle.
All of this was quite interesting to look at, and makes me sad that
he had lost so much other interesting stuff in various shop fires
and moves.
Tony also regaled us with some interesting behind the scenes stories
from his frame making days, as well as some anecdotes from his racing
years in Australia.
All in all, a very enjoyable visit, and I hope I'll be able to get
him over to San Francisco some time so I can reciprocate the
hospitality.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:32:27 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis reminders and some comments on various list posts
MM,
Thanks for reminding me. I checked my manual to see which 4 wheeler used
the needed lever assy. the only one I could come up with was the Yam
YFM80T. All the rest of the manual brake 4whlrs use a cable assy with a
junction box. The Suzuki LT80 has the lever assy integrated into the thumb
throttle.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:06:02 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis reminders and some comments on various list post
On 29 Oct 98, Michael Moore wrote:
> I've noticed that some of the recent posts now include a copy of the
> post in HTML format. Can those of you who are doing that please
> figure out how to turn that feature of your email editor off, so as
> to eliminate the duplicate copy of the message?
>
> Also, a little more time stripping out unneeded quoted text would be
> appreciated.
Yes, please!
> Ray - more info on the dual cable brake lever would be VERY
> appreciated - I'll post the info to the vintage roadrace list, as the
> Suzuki GT750 front brake levers (which had a nice balance beam built
> into them) are getting harder to find.
Once again, yes please!
Cheers,
Glenn
gthomson(at)bserv.com
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:20:16 -0800
From: hpbygd
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
I was running away from you know one time and in a panic rode up a
long staircase without to much effort. I surprised myself.
GD
Bill Heckel wrote:
> I actually got a Honda CL350 stuck on some narrow steps trying to ride
> up
> them. They were pretty steep and had a railing in the middle. I made
> it 2/3
> of the way up until the bike stopped with both front and back wheels
> exactly
> spaced to climb steps together and the back tire just spun. Soon, the
> rear
> went to the left and the bike wedged itself under the railing. I was
> a bit
> embarrased as I was showing off and had to ask my buddy to help. I
> was young
> and dumb at the time, I'm not young anymore, I know what steps I can
> ride up.
>
> I also got a 600 Ninja stuck on wet grass in a slight depression while
> taking a
> shortcut but that is a bit different. Tire didn't sink, it just had
> NO
> traction.
>
> Bill
>
> Dave Williams wrote:
> >
> > -> I guess everyone is out riding.
> > ->
> > -> Have you ever seem that Sci Fi movie where you are the last
> person on
> > -> the planet....
> >
> > Charlton Heston, "The Omega Man." The part where he rides the
> > motorcycle up the steps; it had never occurred to me, for some
> reason,
> > that you could do that, though it was obvious. I had to go try it
> as
> > soon as the movie was over.
> >
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #801
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, October 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 802
1. uranus Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Spanish Scooters
2. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis reminders and some comments on various list posts
3. "Ed Biafore" Subj: MC-Chassis FW: Dead Harley Riders
4. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
5. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis trials bikes
6. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
7. SCOTTA336@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Bikes & Stairs
8. Bill Heckel Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Bikes & Stairs & trials
9. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
10. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
11. jpanstr@ravenet.com (John Anstreicher) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:11:04
From: uranus
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Spanish Scooters
At 20:16 29/10/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I did see a horde of scooters and mopeds, everyone of which seemed to
>be equipped with an expansion chamber. We even had a scooter crash
>into the roadside (actually in the road) tables at a restaurante we
>were eating at Tuesday night. Luckily, those tables weren't occupied.
Spain has the reputation for being the organ donor capital of Europe. So
many young healthy people weaving around the cars on scooters and mopeds,
waving to their pals and trying to look cool . . no crash helmets . . .
it's a transplant surgeon's dream.
David T.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 07:53:42
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis reminders and some comments on various list posts
At 04:36 PM 10/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hoyt - thanks for the post on making the triple clamps.
More than welcome!!
> You should
>give the fabricated sheetmetal triple clamps a try one of these days
>- I think you'd like the results.
Husqvarna used fabbed triples a decade or more ago. They were made of
stamped parts, uppers and lowers halves being the same part. They were
welded around the outline in the middle of the thickness, eyes welded in,
with welded-on tubes for clamping, and the stem was welded in on the bottom
unit. These were extremely strong, light and I guess probably easier to
make all in all than forgings; though they did need dies for the stamping
they were not complex and stamping is than forgings tonnage-wise too.
I always thought that technique was extremely clever but still don't know
how you get away w/o secondary machining.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 05:25:16 -0700
From: "Ed Biafore"
Subject: MC-Chassis FW: Dead Harley Riders
Now here is a real DEADicated Harley Rider, a real die hard!:
Monday October 26 5:25 AM EDT
Dane Takes Dead Father On Last Motorcycle Ride
COPENHAGEN (Reuters) - A Danish man bade his dead father farewell by
taking his corpse for a motorcycle ride at the
weekend, stopping at a bar for beer and a cigar.
Flemming Pedersen, 37, asked the staff at the hospital where his
86-year-old father died if he could be left alone with him for a
while, the tabloid BT reported Monday.
Pederson dressed the rigid corpse in leather gear, boots, a helmet and
dark sunglasses and walked it out of the hospital.
Then he strapped the body to the seat of his Harley Davidson with
elastic straps and drove around metropolitan Copenhagen for
three hours, visiting his father's favorite spots.
He stopped at a kerbside bar, where he bought two beers and stuck a
lit cigar between his dead father's lips.
Pedersen said he had taken the last ride with his father to have a
chat with him and that he felt good about it afterwards.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:03:33 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis testing, testing, one two three
> Date: Thursday, October 29, 1998 11:20 PM
>
> I was running away from you know one time and in a panic rode up a
> long staircase without to much effort. I surprised myself.
> GD
>
You guys need to buy a Trials bike and learn to ride.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 05:13:09 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis trials bikes
Speaking of trials bikes, while in Spain I saw a Montesa 348 Trail
that had the remote reservoirs for the rear dampers cleverly mounted
onto the swingarm so as to increase the unsprung weight.
Perhaps the owner was of the "road hugging weight" school of chassis
tuning.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 05:54:16 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
> Husqvarna used fabbed triples a decade or more ago. They were made of
> I always thought that technique was extremely clever but still don't know
> how you get away w/o secondary machining.
Hello Hoyt,
>From what I've been able to tell from looking at the Husky parts they
used some pretty thick metal - I think the stem/tube sections were
plenty thick to allow for distortion prior to finish machining.
For those who haven't seen them there are pictures of all the bits
of the fabbed clamps that are on my Laverda racer, completed clamps,
and the jig that I used to build them on the main graphics page of
my website, under the section for my bikes. There is also a picture
of some similar (but less offset) clamps that Craig made for a KZ550
racer.
I may have described the process in the past, but I'll follow my own
advice and tell it again.
The jig: just a plate of aluminum with cylindrical blocks attached
to it. I made the jig to the standard 38mm Ceriani/Marzocchi fork
leg width - drilling two holes into the plate. The steel blocks were
turned to the fork leg OD, and have a small nose that spigots into
the holes in the jig plate. A bolt then comes up from the bottom of
the plate and threads into the blocks to hold them in place. A
matching block is used for the stem location. I made a slot in the
plate so that I could change the offset - I used the standard Guzzi
big twin offset of 65mm for these clamps.
The steering stem: made from an aluminum bar, it is 38mm where it is
clamped at the bottom by the triple clamp. I made a 38mm OD nut for
the top of the stem, and the upper clamp nips up on that. I use the
nut for setting the bearing preload (aftermarket KZ900/1000 taper
roller bearings - 30mm ID as I recall). Clamping on the big nut
eliminates the need for a bearing preload ring nut and everything
seems to hold the bearing preload fine.
The clamps: the two clamps are identical. I cut 3 lengths of tubing
that had an ID to match (or nearly so) the fork tube OD - this was
1.625"OD by .049 or .062 wall. I braze welded two clamp tubes onto
each length of tubing and then slotted the assy with the band saw.
These bits were then installed on the jig blocks and some clamp bolts
inserted and snugged up. Be sure to orient the clamps so the bolts
are to the outside of the final assy. I made the tubes a smidge
longer than the expected thickness of the clamp halves so I'd have a
slight bit of right-angle joint at the weld. This may not have been
necessary, but it seemed like it might give a little better joint for
a less than ace weldor.
The upper and lower halves were made from .049" sheet. The blanks
are identical. I put all 4 blanks together and then bored holes to
accept the clamp tubes. If you don't have a mill you could trim the holes with
snips and a half-round bastard file and probably get just as good of
a fit without a great increase in time.
After this I trimmed the blanks so there were three "fingers" left
between the holes, and then folded the fingers 90 degrees. I tried
to get as close a fit as possible between the two halves and the
clamp tubes so as to reduce distortion when welding.
I installed a pair of upper and lower halves into the jig, did
whatever final fettling seemed appropriate, and started TIG welding
the parts. I did a bunch of tiny tacks all over the joints between
the upper and lower halves, taking my time and letting things cool.
Then I finish welded the halves with a series of .5-1" beads, again
spacing them around the joints and trying to avoid putting too much
heat into the parts.
When the clamp halves were fully welded I started tacking them to the
clamp tubes as above. I finish welded as much as I could reach, and
after things cooled I pulled the clamp off, flopped it over, and was
thrilled to find that it went right back onto the jig. I then
finished the remaining welds, pulled the clamp back off, and made
sure that it still went back on the jig in the original orientation.
The pair of clamps took me about 4 hours to make. For production
runs you could save some time by machining a big batch of clamp
halves at once. Having a bender that works better than my home-made
one would probably speed things a little bit too - I had to fiddle
with each bend a bit to make sure things were lined up right. It
might also be possible to speed the welding, but I figured that it
was better to be slower and safe and not have to make things over.
You could use sections of rectangular tubing to connect the clamps.
I did that on the first fabricated clamp that I made, but after I
ended up putting a straight bit of tubing between the fork tube
clamps to triangulate things I decided that it wasn't as nice as the
sheet metal - plus I was stuck with the wall thickness that I could
get the tubing in. On those first clamps I did use thicker clamp
tubes a la Husky, with the tubes c-clamped to a plate and finished
machined them (which they needed).
As I recall the Rob North fabricated clamps on the Beezumph triples
used rectangular tubing running from the stem to the fork legs (they
were also "dropped" clamps instead of flat like mine) and then a
piece of sheet was welded on top of the connecting tubes, with the
sheet rolling down at the front to give some stiffening section. It
was open in the bottom though, and not a full box, so wasn't as stiff
as it could have been. There may be a picture of some North clamps
on the graphics page somewhere.
John Cronshaw's Goldstar racer just has the upper and lower clamps
welded directly to the fork tubes, saving the weight of the clamp
tubes.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:03:38 EST
From: SCOTTA336@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Bikes & Stairs
How about downstairs?
After my return flight to LAX I found I'd lost the parking ticket required to
exit the parking structure for the less than usurious "lost my ticket" fee.
Three flights of damp metal stairs later, my Honda 400 Four and I were on our
way home. I surprised the heck out of one poor lady trying to make her way
*up* those selfsame stairs. Oh, and a shorter wheelbase would have made the
turns easier.
- -Scott A
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:21:01 -0500
From: Bill Heckel
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Bikes & Stairs & trials
Ray wrote:
>You guys need to buy a Trials bike and learn to ride.
I am looking for a cheap trials bike around here (Pittsburgh) to play on. I am
getting too rowdy on my SR500 lately and need an outlet.
honda actually called the CL350 I had a 'trials' bike. It had trials tires and
a high pipe but it really wasn't a trials bike.
Hell, I even tried to ride it in 5" of snow that same year. I could get it up
to 10 or 15 MPH before crashing. The front tire would pack up with snow and
turn into a giant ski. Pretty hard to steer without a rotating front wheel. I
think I probably crashed 10 times going 200 yards and back. Fun for all, it
didn't hurt a bit and I had a blast. Donuts were super easy.
SCOTTA336@aol.com wrote:
>
> After my return flight to LAX I found I'd lost the parking ticket required to
> exit the parking structure for the less than usurious "lost my ticket" fee.
> Three flights of damp metal stairs later, my Honda 400 Four and I were on our
> way home. I surprised the heck out of one poor lady trying to make her way
> *up* those selfsame stairs. Oh, and a shorter wheelbase would have made the
> turns easier.
Now that would be an ugly place to get the bike stuck!
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:58:20 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
When I go to modify the 600F2 front wheel for HCS I'll need to
greatly enlarge the existing wheel bearing hole.
I've got several choices. I can bore the hole bigger on my mill.
The drawback here is that the boring head will be at its maximum
extension (and may need an offset bar) and will be at minimum
rigidity. Also, I've noticed on big diameter cuts the whole mill
will start to shake from the unbalanced boring head.
I can take the wheel up to Craig's shop, where we should be able to
fit it into his lathe with the gap removed from the bed, and then
bore the hole as needed. I suspect this may be the best option, but
I'd kind of like to do it in house if I can (and he's 3 hours away).
I've got a pretty high quality rotary table that I can clamp the
wheel on, and I could mill the hole larger. I'd think that with a
good sized end mill this would be quite rigid, and avoids the
problems of option 1.
Any thoughts/suggestions?
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:46:32 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
MM asked: When I go to modify the 600F2 front wheel for HCS I'll need to
greatly enlarge the existing wheel bearing hole.
#1 I can bore the hole bigger on my mill. The drawback...minimum
rigidity. Also, shake from the unbalanced boring head.
#2 Craig's lathe with the gap removed from the bed, and then
bore the hole as needed, but...he's 3 hours away.
#3 I've got a pretty high quality rotary table that I can clamp the
wheel on, and I could mill the hole larger.
Any thoughts/suggestions?
A potential problem with the rotary table/mill solution is accurate
sizing. Internal boring is not the conventional usage I learned for this
technology. That said, if you can work around that potential problem,
the rotary table should be the good #2 solution (boring it in a lather
is always going to be the #1 solution).
Mark
P.S. Too bad this isn't the old days where you could unlace the wheel
and just bore the hub!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:52:59 -0500
From: jpanstr@ravenet.com (John Anstreicher)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
Hi Michael:
Boy if this isn't machinist bait...
Do it on a gap bed lathe if at all possible.
That is what the application wants and what
the machine was designed for.
JPA
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #802
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, October 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 803
1. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
2. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
3. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
4. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
5. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
6. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
7. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
8. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis Guzzi V8
9. "Kelvin Blair" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst Boring Bearing Hole
10. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst Boring Bearing Hole
11. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Guzzi V8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:43:14
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
At 10:58 AM 10/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I've got several choices. I can bore the hole bigger on my mill.
>The drawback here is that the boring head will be at its maximum
>extension (and may need an offset bar) and will be at minimum
>rigidity. Also, I've noticed on big diameter cuts the whole mill
>will start to shake from the unbalanced boring head.
Slow the spindle *WAY* down and it won't shake. Use back gears if you have
to. I don't know how big your hole is but in cast aluminum you should hold
bit surface speed down to 250-300 IPM. Also, use about 5 deg back and side
rake and make sure your bit has at least that much bottom clearance. it's
also important that the bit cutting edge be slightly 'low' compared to a
radial line.
Take light cuts and the amount of extension is less important. I'd go for
no more than .05-.06" cut depth per pass. It might take a bit longer but it
beats a long drive on top of about the same machining time.
Have seen boring heads made to take extension adaptor laterally through the
slide, then the bar fits into the adaptor and the bit is aligned as usual.
This gives you up to 12" dia, and it works just fine. The key to this is
having all your gibs in head and table set very close or even slightly snug.
Sure you're not just looking for excuse to gander around in Craig's shop??
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:55:24
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
At 10:58 AM 10/30/98 -0800, I wrote:also important that the bit cutting
edge be slightly 'low' compared to a radial line.
Hehe, that should actually be 'high' ... low is for outside turning. The
rationale is that forces acting on the tool always shift it slightly
relative to rest, and if that shift is in a manner that engages it more, it
will chatter. Hence 'high' inside and 'low' outside.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:18:06 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
The rotary table would be my last choice. Surface finish. sizing, and concentricity issues are my reservations. The cutter will not cut the same depth as it comes around to the previous pass due to cutting forces. Resulting in a "step".
The mill and boring bar combination is good. Get a sturdy unit,(have Craig send his best). Counter balance as needed. If you are inclined, get a fly cut head (cheap) and with the aid of V blocks and indicator set your single point tool to the radius desired. Light cuts make for less trauma. Still concentricity set up is critical, but you only deal with the mill spindle.
Lathe work is best! I doubt you would save six hours drive time over boring on the mill, but the work goes all in one direction. You can use a hammer for set up, and everything is in the open. Resetting the "Gap" may be a significant issue, I never feel right until an indicator carried on the saddle goes "zero/zero". I hate it when the "last inch" is a different diameter.
Regards and good luck
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: Michael Moore
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
> Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 1:58 PM
>
> When I go to modify the 600F2 front wheel for HCS I'll need to
> greatly enlarge the existing wheel bearing hole.
>
> I've got several choices. I can bore the hole bigger on my mill.
> The drawback here is that the boring head will be at its maximum
> extension (and may need an offset bar) and will be at minimum
> rigidity. Also, I've noticed on big diameter cuts the whole mill
> will start to shake from the unbalanced boring head.
>
> I can take the wheel up to Craig's shop, where we should be able to
> fit it into his lathe with the gap removed from the bed, and then
> bore the hole as needed. I suspect this may be the best option, but
> I'd kind of like to do it in house if I can (and he's 3 hours away).
>
> I've got a pretty high quality rotary table that I can clamp the
> wheel on, and I could mill the hole larger. I'd think that with a
> good sized end mill this would be quite rigid, and avoids the
> problems of option 1.
>
> Any thoughts/suggestions?
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:22:05 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
Hello all!
Given that I'm a pragmatist by nature, and enjoy seeing concrete results of
my efforts to modify parts, I'd like to give some thought to both fabing
and testing triple clamps. I've spoken with Hoyt and seen his posts on the
list about his machined aluminum clamps, and also seen the mention of built
up sheet metal clamps. I am particularly interested in the sheet metal
clamps as they are well within my ability to fabricate.
My questions to the list are as follows:
* Does a stiffer clamp necessarily indicate a better clamp? I'm a road
racer (Honda Hawk GT), and I wonder if the requirements for a clamp are
diferent for diferent motorsports, or is stiffer always better? My bet is
yes.
* Will a sheetmetal clamp be equally stiff as a machined aluminum clamp, or
is this a case of comparing apples to oranges?
* I have not seen any mention of using a spacer between the top and bottom
bearings, which would make setting bearing preload a snap, given proper
dimensions of the spacer. Is this worthwhile in terms of stiffness and/or
simplicity?
* How would one set out to test a triple clamp design, and in what planes?
My thinking is to affix one fork tube and the steering stem to the
proverbial imovable object, and load the free fork tube with a standard
weight in the fore and aft axis (i.e. to simulate braking loads), and
measure deflection. However, this seems to be diferent than the actual
loading as fork sliders are attached via the axle and spacers. Would this
test yeild useable or relavant data?
* Michael mentions using .049 CroMo in his excellent description. Would
using a thicker material significantly enhance stiffness or merely increase
weight?
* Also, would the inclusion of shear webs within the clamp significantly
enhance stiffness or merely increase weight?
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:44:56 -0500
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
Alan
I haven't much to say about all the subjects you question, But...
as for the last item, I have given some thought to this and concluded (perhaps innocently) that 'shear walls" would add stiffness to the "skin", avoiding buckle, and so deflection. This would increase the measured "stiffness" beyond the calculable figure. Stiffening ribs are standard construction in any stress skin structure.
To take this a step beyond. I contemplate filling the cavity of stress skin triple clamps and swing arms (delta box) with expanding foam to this same end!
After completing all heat related modifications certainly.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
>
> * Also, would the inclusion of shear webs within the clamp significantly
> enhance stiffness or merely increase weight?
>
> Al
> level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:07:14 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
I have to go to Craig's shop every now and then to do stuff with
various projects so I guess I'll just plan to take the wheel up with
me one of those times.
One of the reasons I asked is I had the impression that they
sometimes "bore" large OD holes on CNC machines with the endmill and
moving the workpiece, rather than a boring head.
I suppose I should have mentioned that I'll be welding some big
aluminum bearing cups into the wheel where I've bored it out, so I'll
have to do a final bore on the cups when done. At least that
shouldn't need much metal removed to clean things up, and I'll
probably be able to do that on the mill.
thanks,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:07:14 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
> * Michael mentions using .049 CroMo in his excellent description. Would
> using a thicker material significantly enhance stiffness or merely increase
> weight?
>
> * Also, would the inclusion of shear webs within the clamp significantly
> enhance stiffness or merely increase weight?
Hello Al,
No CrMo was mentioned by me - all my stuff is 1018 mild steel.
I thought about putting something in the middle of the clamp to stop
it from oil-canning, but it seems to work fine as it is. If you
could bond some honeycomb inside the clamp it would probably stiffen
things up noticeably.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:59:48 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Guzzi V8
Slightly off topic, but I was looking for pics and info on the old Moto
Guzzi V8 GP bike, especially naked pics. I could only find I of course
want to see the one fully faired vintage bike.
Thanks
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
______________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 09:05:58 +0800
From: "Kelvin Blair"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst Boring Bearing Hole
Michael wrote:
> The drawback here is that the boring head will be at its maximum
> extension (and may need an offset bar) and will be at minimum
> rigidity. Also, I've noticed on big diameter cuts the whole mill
> will start to shake from the unbalanced boring head.
Balance the head then, you must be able to bolt/clamp some mass on to the
boring head somewhere. What diameter Hole are we talking about and what
speed are you running the boring head at? If your getting it to shake its
either a very large hole or your trying to bore at theoretical cutting
speeds?
>
> I can take the wheel up to Craig's shop, where we should be able to
> fit it into his lathe with the gap removed from the bed, and then
> bore the hole as needed. I suspect this may be the best option, but
> I'd kind of like to do it in house if I can (and he's 3 hours away).
You could do the whole job in 3 hours.
> I've got a pretty high quality rotary table that I can clamp the
> wheel on, and I could mill the hole larger. I'd think that with a
> good sized end mill this would be quite rigid, and avoids the
> problems of option 1.
Does your mill have adjustment in both axis on the head ie if you use the
rotary table you will need to clock the head up very square to the rotary
table or your hole will be tapered. Also if your mill is not rigid you
will have trouble getting a parallel hole. Lots of light cuts may be the
answer. I actually like the mill/rotary table idea as it makes it easy to
make the job look good ie you can slip a router bit into the chuck and put
a nice chamfer or even a radius on the hole. Don't be afraid to use small
router bits for finishing Ali bits, the ones with the bearings on the
bottom (as a guide) are great for giving a professional looking finish on
edges and there are so many profile shapes available. I use them in a
small router or what they actually call a trimmer, used in the
cabinet/joinery trade. The Tungsten Carbide bits are expensive but work
the best. I even use them on Stainless Steel with a speed controller on
the router!
Regards
Kelvin
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:26:44 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst Boring Bearing Hole
Hi Kelvin,
> Balance the head then, you must be able to bolt/clamp some mass on to the
> boring head somewhere. What diameter Hole are we talking about and what
> speed are you running the boring head at? If your getting it to shake its
> either a very large hole or your trying to bore at theoretical cutting
> speeds?
The boring head doesn't seem to readily allow adding balancing mass -
the hole will be 5-6" (just inside the disc mounts on the F2 wheel).
Even at slow speeds it seems like you can see things "walk" a bit. I
have a standard Taiwanese 2hp Bridgeport-style vertical mill.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:40:56 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Guzzi V8
Yousuf,
This is probably just a big teaser but the is a photo of the engine in an
old book I have, maybe you could find this book at a specialty book shop.
Title:Racing Motor Cycles
By: Mick woollett
Hamlyn Publ. Group
Copyright 1973
Ray
- ----------
> From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis Guzzi V8
> Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 7:59 PM
>
> Slightly off topic, but I was looking for pics and info on the old Moto
> Guzzi V8 GP bike, especially naked pics. I could only find I of course
> want to see the one fully faired vintage bike.
> Thanks
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Yousuf
>
> ______________________________________________________
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #803
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Saturday, October 31 1998 Volume 01 : Number 804
1. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst Boring Bearing Hole
2. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst Boring Bearing Hole
4. "Frank Camillieri" Subj: MC-Chassis Wheel boring
5. GD Subj: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
6. Dick Brewster Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
7. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
8. "Tony Foale" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #802
9. "Tony Foale" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #802
10. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
11. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:43:52 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst Boring Bearing Hole
MM,
Find someone local with a whopper of a lathe and pay them to do it.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:58:49
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
At 04:22 PM 10/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>* Does a stiffer clamp necessarily indicate a better clamp?
Beyond any shadow of a doubt.
>I'm a road
>racer (Honda Hawk GT), and I wonder if the requirements for a clamp are
>diferent for diferent motorsports, or is stiffer always better? My bet is
>yes.
Correct. I come at this from DB and my first clamps were for my own bikes.
These made a big diff and so did the ones I made for other DB riders. I got
into asphalt work when a pal with a CB550 pumped full of Yoshi bits had a
tankslapper so cross-eyed snaggle-toothed junkyard-dog vicious it
registered on seismographs. Hell, even the dropped jaws of the spectators
twiddled the needles, and I felt his pain from 200 miles away. We
extinguished the bad-ass stuff with billet clamps, the very ones shown on
my site. (Arron Travis has them now for his VintRR CB450, and they're shown
on his site too.) He was fast to begin with, as with Jeff Smith having
served considerable time racing dirt and sucking up patches of brush, but
he got faster afterward esp after we also put on a stronger SA. Like
Hailwood he used to wear out his boots on this thing, I swear it. In a
short time it became very popular with the fans to watch him go by
perfectly cold-blooded and trailing plumes of sparks off the sidestand
mount or pipe depending on R or L corner. You would literally need a hanky
or maybe even a new diaper after seeing that once or twice. I had to hide
behind the pit wall sometimes to make my ducks stop quacking, and even now
after 15 years the memories raise my neck hair.
>* Will a sheetmetal clamp be equally stiff as a machined aluminum clamp, or
>is this a case of comparing apples to oranges?
It's a matter of how much metal is in each and how that is distributed
relative to the loads. Very possibly there is extra virtue in having the
loads carried entirely through the skin, hence fabbed clamps may be more
weight-efficient. But I don't think you necessarily save any time building
them and I still don't understand how His Michael-ness welds them w/o
distortion.
>* I have not seen any mention of using a spacer between the top and bottom
>bearings, which would make setting bearing preload a snap, given proper
>dimensions of the spacer. Is this worthwhile in terms of stiffness and/or
>simplicity?
IMHO yes, but you put your finger tight on the most practical difficulty in
doing this: the spacer length. Also, the bng profiles aren't flat there,
yes? You get much the same effect by other means, one being mounting bngs
in the clamps themselves, the other being fixing things to the stem with
extreme precision and proper pinching all around.
>* How would one set out to test a triple clamp design, and in what planes?
My best guess is torsional rigidity of the whole fork is very important,
perhaps paramount, hence the big diffs from things like one of TKAT's
add-on slider braces. Michael is right on here with using a stem 30mm on
each end, and it would probably be better yet if bigger still.
>My thinking is to affix one fork tube and the steering stem to the
>proverbial imovable object, and load the free fork tube with a standard
>weight in the fore and aft axis (i.e. to simulate braking loads), and
>measure deflection.
Works for me.
>However, this seems to be diferent than the actual
>loading as fork sliders are attached via the axle and spacers. Would this
>test yeild useable or relavant data?
You might do that with the axle, bngs and spacer in place.
>* Michael mentions using .049 CroMo in his excellent description. Would
>using a thicker material significantly enhance stiffness or merely increase
>weight?
Your weight goes up in proportion to the thickness and so does strength.
More of each in highly stressed parts is always better. Most times when
people seriously reduce weight of chassis components they get into trouble
on the track.
>* Also, would the inclusion of shear webs within the clamp significantly
>enhance stiffness or merely increase weight?
JMHO that it wouldn't help as much as much as more skin thickness. You also
add in a fabbing problem with internal weldments in fabbed clamps.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:26:26 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst Boring Bearing Hole
> Find someone local with a whopper of a lathe and pay them to do it.
>
Now Ray, you know that is against the rules.
I'm in no big hurry - it will keep until my next trip to Craig's
shop.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:13:24 -0500
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Subject: MC-Chassis Wheel boring
Michael,
It's a shame you're so far away. I just got a new CNC lathe that will swing 24"
in front of the slant bed. We have circular interpolated 12" dia. bores on our
vertical CNC mills within .001 TIR. It would have been great to have all this
equipment when I was racing in the 60s. At Yetmans we used the hand millers
a lot (files). The only machine tool was an old Atlas 9" lathe.
Regards,
Frank Camillieri
Chester, NH
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:19:28 -0800
From: GD
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
Don't spin the boring head so fast and the mill won't move around so
much. Or the other thing you can do is hang a balance weight so the
boring bar isn't so far out of balance. Either way should be much
better.
GD
Michael Moore wrote:
> When I go to modify the 600F2 front wheel for HCS I'll need to
> greatly enlarge the existing wheel bearing hole.
>
> I've got several choices. I can bore the hole bigger on my mill.
> The drawback here is that the boring head will be at its maximum
> extension (and may need an offset bar) and will be at minimum
> rigidity. Also, I've noticed on big diameter cuts the whole mill
> will start to shake from the unbalanced boring head.
>
> I can take the wheel up to Craig's shop, where we should be able to
> fit it into his lathe with the gap removed from the bed, and then
> bore the hole as needed. I suspect this may be the best option, but
> I'd kind of like to do it in house if I can (and he's 3 hours away).
>
> I've got a pretty high quality rotary table that I can clamp the
> wheel on, and I could mill the hole larger. I'd think that with a
> good sized end mill this would be quite rigid, and avoids the
> problems of option 1.
>
> Any thoughts/suggestions?
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:35:33 -0800
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
batwings@i-plus.net wrote:
> ....
> >* Michael mentions using .049 CroMo in his excellent description. Would
> >using a thicker material significantly enhance stiffness or merely increase
> >weight?
>
> Your weight goes up in proportion to the thickness and so does strength.
> More of each in highly stressed parts is always better. Most times when
> people seriously reduce weight of chassis components they get into trouble
> on the track.
>
> >* Also, would the inclusion of shear webs within the clamp significantly
> >enhance stiffness or merely increase weight?
>
> JMHO that it wouldn't help as much as much as more skin thickness. You also
> add in a fabbing problem with internal weldments in fabbed clamps.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Hoyt
I think you are right about the lack benefit from shear webs.
Michaels fabbed triple clamps sound like they have fairly small
areas of 0.049 flat plate that is well supported on all sides. As
a swag, I doubt that buckling/oil canning or whatever is an
issue. Best place to put extra metal would be at the max distance
from the neutral axis. The tube sections for the fork tubes and
stem pretty well brace the clamps now.
Dick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:37:08 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis boring vs milling
Michael Moore wrote:
> I've got a pretty high quality rotary table that I can clamp the
> wheel on, and I could mill the hole larger. I'd think that with a
> good sized end mill this would be quite rigid, and avoids the
> problems of option 1.
Sounds good to me - you can run the spindle at the best cutting
speed instead of being limited by vibration, and it's probably
easier to get a decent finish on the machined surface (if that's
significant).
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:00:25 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #802
David T said:
<<
Spain has the reputation for being the organ donor capital of Europe. So
many young healthy people weaving around the cars on scooters and mopeds,
waving to their pals and trying to look cool . . no crash helmets . . .
it's a transplant surgeon's dream.
>>
This is so true, even to the extent that locally the mopeds are actually
nicknamed the "organ donors".
I have three kids around the moped riding age and each of them have lost
friends due to lack of helmets and zero riding skill.
As helmets are now compulsary but still "non-cool" it is quite usual to see
them worn on the elbow, only to be transferred to the head when spotted by
the law. Even most that wear them on their heads fail to do up the strap.
Tony Foale.
España / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:07:06 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #802
Michael:
<<
. Also, I've noticed on big diameter cuts the whole mill
will start to shake from the unbalanced boring head.
Any thoughts/suggestions?
>>
Just clamp on some weight to balance your cutter, jubilee clips and some
lumps of steel have helped me out of this problem many times.
Tony Foale.
España / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 08:02:44
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
At 08:35 PM 10/30/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I think you are right about the lack benefit from shear webs.
I have thought a lot about this and there may be one in particular which
would help. Notice that in most clamps the stem is near the rear edge and
is easy to intersect with the vertical portions (which MM makes I believe
by bending portions of the upper and lower surface to form the vertical
edges); this is actually a shear web itself. This is not so easy at the
front edge, where the fore-aft width places the stem some distance away,
The result is the forward edge isn't fixed to the stem in the same manner
and that places the sheet metal of tops and bottoms in considerable bending
load in that region. IOW, the axial load along the stem is borne entirely
by the rear of the clamp. A shear web running straight forward to the
vertical surface there is hence a grand idea but hard to make. That
difficulty I think is what has largely prevented me from making fabbed clamps.
One might make the stem holder, weld on the shear web, and then weld on the
remainder in two halves one for each side. Perhaps a better way would be to
make the stem holder by wrapping a strip to form a complete eye with long
radial tails, running those ends forward to the right place for the leading
edge then bending them out following the outline to the tube clamps'
locations. One would use a second strip tangent to the rear of the stem eye
and also bent as needed to follow the rear outline out to the tube clamps;
these two pieces then completely outline the clamp and are welded to the
tube clamps and stem holder and the tails joined in the middle by a
vertical weld there. Then one would cap it top and bottom with sheet cut to
the same outline and bored for stem and tubes, with a slight overhang which
is used to make a fillet weld following the whole outline. Details of
adding on bolt-carrying tubes for pinching, etc are left to the reader.
In either case above there is no fixing of the middle shear web to the
upper and lower caps unless one wishes to drill and plug weld, not a bad
idea, but it does give you a load carrying member from front edge to the stem.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 07:15:59 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
Hello Hoyt,
It would be a little less fiddly to just run a short section of
rectangular tube straight forward from the stem clamp ring. Weld it
to the stem ring, and then fill in the two smaller triangular
sections to the tube rings. Or, just enclose it inside the upper and
lower halves and do some rosette welds to attach the halves to the
square tube. You'd have double thickness at the tube for a small
increase in weight, but it might be a lot easier to fab.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #804
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Sunday, November 1 1998 Volume 01 : Number 805
1. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis re: fabbed triple clamps - distortion
2. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis New list announcement
3. uranus Subj: MC-Chassis Re: organ donors
4. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: MC-Chassis Cycle Magazine '74 Excerpt
5. "Glenn Thomson" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 07:20:15 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis re: fabbed triple clamps - distortion
Hello Hoyt,
I was quite pleased there was no distortion in the clamps, but that
isn't due to me being a wizard weldor. Minimizing the heat, letting
things cool a bit between each short bead, spacing the beads around
the weld, etc all seem to make a big difference on the amount of
distortion.
It also occurs to me that the very thin sections being used, along
with close fitups, may play a significant part in keeping the
distortion down in the clamps.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 09:04:59 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis New list announcement
Hi everyone,
I've just started an email list for the Benelli and MotoBi marques.
After a little testing and fine tuning this morning the list seems to
be up an running OK, so I'm letting everyone know that it is
available.
To s#bscribe you'll send your message to:
majordomo@list.sirius.com
The list has both individual and digest (accumulation of messages
issued as one message) modes, so the body of the message will read
either:
s#bscribe benelli-motobi youremailaddresshere
or
s#bscribe benelli-motobi-digest youremailaddresshere
depending on which version you want. Be sure to put a U in place of
the # symbol. I forgot to do that in the original post and got a
bounce from every one of my lists - hoist with my own configuration
petard as it were.
As with my other 6 lists, I'll be keeping the new list closed to
non-member posts which has proven to be effective in keeping the
spammers out.
I'll be letting Carl Paukstis know about the list so he can include it
in the November issue of the mailing list roundup.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:15:46
From: uranus
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: organ donors
>This is so true, even to the extent that locally the mopeds are actually
>nicknamed the "organ donors".
>I have three kids around the moped riding age and each of them have lost
>friends due to lack of helmets and zero riding skill.
>As helmets are now compulsary but still "non-cool" it is quite usual to see
>them worn on the elbow, only to be transferred to the head when spotted by
>the law. Even most that wear them on their heads fail to do up the strap.
>
>Tony Foale.
As a slight variation, when I was in France a few years back, I was warned
not to leave my crash helmet on the bike's helmet lock, (where the lock pin
passed through the strap buckle). Why not, I thought, they can't steal the
helmet without cutting the strap so what's the point? I soon realised that
the local kids didn't mind if the helmet had no strap, as long as it was a
trendy Arai or Shoei with the requisite Doohan/Rainey/Whoever paint job . . .
David T.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 16:28:13 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: MC-Chassis Cycle Magazine '74 Excerpt
Article: Yamaha 250 Road Racer: History of the Privateer's best Friend - by
- - Kevin Cameron
"With the arrival of the first TD1-C engine, brought to England in a Frank
Camillieri frame by Dave Browning, the new wave began to break."
Old magazines contain some great nuggets of information.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:09:08 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
On 30 Oct 98, Michael Moore wrote:
> > * Michael mentions using .049 CroMo in his excellent description. Would
> > using a thicker material significantly enhance stiffness or merely increase
> > weight?
> >
> > * Also, would the inclusion of shear webs within the clamp significantly
> > enhance stiffness or merely increase weight?
>
> Hello Al,
>
> No CrMo was mentioned by me - all my stuff is 1018 mild steel.
>
> I thought about putting something in the middle of the clamp to stop
> it from oil-canning, but it seems to work fine as it is. If you
> could bond some honeycomb inside the clamp it would probably stiffen
> things up noticeably.
Or add a couple of tubes from the top to the bottom panel, parallel
to the fork tubes, say 1/2x.049 or so.
Cheers,
Glenn
gthomson(at)bserv.com
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #805
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Monday, November 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 806
1. Dick Brewster Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
2. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
3. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
4. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
5. "Joe Allan" Subj: MC-Chassis VW Parts?
6. Les Subj: Re: MC-Chassis VW Parts?
7. mike.dean@poseidon.dictaphone.com (Mike Dean) Subj: MC-Chassis Spondon Contact Information..
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 12:37:09 -0800
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
Glenn Thomson wrote:
....
> >
> > I thought about putting something in the middle of the clamp to stop
> > it from oil-canning, but it seems to work fine as it is. If you
> > could bond some honeycomb inside the clamp it would probably stiffen
> > things up noticeably.
>
> Or add a couple of tubes from the top to the bottom panel, parallel
> to the fork tubes, say 1/2x.049 or so.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Glenn
One of the things you do to make a structure stiffer is to find
out where the relative motion is between parts of the structure.
Then you attach something to restrict the relative motion. Since
the upper and lower panels of the triple clamps will tend to move
in unison, a small tube between them would add little stiffness.
I hadn't looked at the picture of the clamps recently so I took
another look today. Some webs from the center tubes out to the
front of the clamps would stiffen up that area quite a bit. But
OTOH, the clamps look to be a quite a bit stiffer than most stock
clamps already so some webs might or might not make a noticable
difference.
A good technique for evaluating major structoral changes is to
make a model and play with it. Light cardboad, like box cardboad,
and a hot melt glue gun is an easy way to evaluate fabricated
triple clamp configuration. You can even measure the torsional
stiffness of the models fairly easily.
I've done a fair amount of that kind of crude modeling, even when
I had the FEA analytical capability of a large corporation and
the budget to use it available.
The cardboard or other suitable model approach was a lot faster
and gave the designers a lot more feedback as to what worked and
what was practical to build. Then we used FEA to tweak the final
design. FEA is a lot more user friendly and cheaper to use now
than it was then, but there is still room for hands on models,
even in the big corporate world.
Dick
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:18:36 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
>>* Also, would the inclusion of shear webs within the clamp significantly
>>enhance stiffness or merely increase weight?
>
>JMHO that it wouldn't help as much as much as more skin thickness. You also
>add in a fabbing problem with internal weldments in fabbed clamps.
Hoyt: Thanks much for your inupt.
As to this item, I would slot the skin in the central area of the clamp,
leaving a 1/4~3/8" margin around the edges. The shear webs would have tabs
slightly greater in depth than the thickness of the skin. I can weld the
outside where the tab protrudes, avoiding lots of fussy welding inside the
part.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:21:51 -0500
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
>No CrMo was mentioned by me - all my stuff is 1018 mild steel.
So sorry. I must have projected my own fascination with CrMo. :)
>I thought about putting something in the middle of the clamp to stop
>it from oil-canning, but it seems to work fine as it is. If you
I'm not exactly sure what oil-canning is. Can I assume that it is a
reference to some kind of distortion?
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:49:59 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: fabbed triple clamps
> I'm not exactly sure what oil-canning is. Can I assume that it is a
> reference to some kind of distortion?
>
Hello Al,
When a nominally flat or slightly domed surface (like the top of an
oil can) pops back and forth. So it is basically referring to
stopping the flat surfaces of the clamps from moving around.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 07:00:29 -0800
From: "Joe Allan"
Subject: MC-Chassis VW Parts?
Hello All;
Anyone got a link for VW performance parts, (mailing list?) got some
motor ideas and need some info.
Thanks in advance.
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 23:32:24 +0800
From: Les
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis VW Parts?
Joe,
Try this...
http://www.cbperformance.com/
Best regards, Les
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:29:25 -0500
From: mike.dean@poseidon.dictaphone.com (Mike Dean)
Subject: MC-Chassis Spondon Contact Information..
Stepping out of Lurking mode for a moment, to ask you gents for some help..
I have a friend who has a Spondon frame for an 86 TZ250, which he has had in
mothballs for sometime, but now is preparing to reassemble. It is a rather
pretty piece, which has nothing to do with why I am writing.
He was hoping to find some contact information for Spondon, so he could find
out more details about the frame he has. Does anyone know about Spondon
frames for TZs, or could anyone provide me with a phone number for Spondon?
I searched the Web to no avail...If anyone here could help, I can provide
the frame number. (don't have it handy, but he and I share a shop, so I can
get it.)
Mike Dean
mike.dean@poseidon.dictaphone.com
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #806
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Wednesday, November 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 807
1. Johnayleng@aol.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Spondon Contact Information..
2. Julian Bond Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Spondon Contact Information..
3. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: MC-Chassis Frame Jig
4. Mfstj@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis re Spondon tz
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:44:52 EST
From: Johnayleng@aol.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Spondon Contact Information..
In a message dated 11/2/98 7:38:32 PM Mountain Standard Time,
mike.dean@poseidon.dictaphone.com writes:
> He was hoping to find some contact information for Spondon, so he could find
> out more details about the frame he has. Does anyone know about Spondon
> frames for TZs, or could anyone provide me with a phone number for Spondon?
> I searched the Web to no avail...If anyone here could help, I can provide
> the frame number. (don't have it handy, but he and I share a shop, so I can
> get it.)
>
Mike,
I found the phone number for Special Edition Motorsports, which is the US
importer for Spondon. 310-364-0255
I hope this helps,
John Aylor NM
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:16:28 +0000
From: Julian Bond
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Spondon Contact Information..
In article , Johnayleng@aol.com writes
>In a message dated 11/2/98 7:38:32 PM Mountain Standard Time,
>mike.dean@poseidon.dictaphone.com writes:
>
>> He was hoping to find some contact information for Spondon, so he could find
>> out more details about the frame he has. Does anyone know about Spondon
>> frames for TZs, or could anyone provide me with a phone number for Spondon?
>> I searched the Web to no avail...If anyone here could help, I can provide
>> the frame number. (don't have it handy, but he and I share a shop, so I can
>> get it.)
>>
> Mike,
>
> I found the phone number for Special Edition Motorsports, which is the US
>importer for Spondon. 310-364-0255
Spondon, UK +44 (0)1332-662157
For the USA, you might also try MotoVenture, Dripping Springs, TX, USA
+1 (512) 858-2313 www.motoventure.com
- -- ______________________________ )+( _____________________________ --
Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
CN250/Helix/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
8600 Bike Suppliers, Contacts & Addresses http://www.bikeweb.com
> Auto Stop <
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:23:27 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Frame Jig
I visited the MotoVenture website and found an image of a Martek frame
in a frame jig.
To see it: http://www.motoventure.com/martekframe.htm
Mark
P.S. It is mighty amazing that I find out about a company less than 30
miles away, here in Texas, from something as seemingly remote as the
Internet!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:20:53 EST
From: Mfstj@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis re Spondon tz
Spondon's address
Spondon Engineering Ltd.
78 Nottingham Road
Spondon
Derby
DE2 7AL
Specialists in one-off manufacturing. Frames, brake discs, swing arms, petrol
tanks.
Telephone:- 01332 662 157
For genral info look out for " post war independent motorcycle frame makers"
by Keith Noakes published by Osprey automotive ISBN 1-85532-531-4
Hope this helps
Matthew Davies
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #807
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Thursday, November 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 808
1. "Glenn Thomson" Subj: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
2. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
3. Pale Stale Male Subj: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
4. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
5. "LTSNIDER" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
6. "Karlis Plinche" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
7. Les Subj: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
8. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: MC-Chassis OT for those interested: Boring
9. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis november mags and a fast gs
10. "Joe Allan" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis november mags and a fast gs
11. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis 4LS brake adjusters
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:27:55 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
I stumbled across this Japanese FFE today. I've heard of similar
things being done before (using virtual pivots), but I never saw
pictures or got any details.
Anyone else seen anything like it?
http://210.154.118.252:80/daytona/MONKEY/VIRTUAL/VIRTUAL.html
Cheers,
Glenn
gthomson(at)bserv.com
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:47:18 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
> I stumbled across this Japanese FFE today. I've heard of similar
> things being done before (using virtual pivots), but I never saw
> pictures or got any details.
>
> Anyone else seen anything like it?
Hello Glenn,
Some of the drawings of the motion remind me of the OEC Duplex
steering, but that is just a very quick and glancing impression.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:54:13 -0500
From: Pale Stale Male
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
> I stumbled across this Japanese FFE today. I've heard of similar
> things being done before (using virtual pivots), but I never saw
> pictures or got any details.
>
> Anyone else seen anything like it?
Yeah, I think so. I'm short on details, but back around the 30's there was a
British machine called the OEC (Odd Engineering Contraption) that had a
suspension that looks like it was functionally similiar. I think it used a
sliding pillar setup for suspension travel though.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 22:43:44 -0800
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
Glenn Thomson wrote:
>
> I stumbled across this Japanese FFE today. I've heard of similar
> things being done before (using virtual pivots), but I never saw
> pictures or got any details.
>
> Anyone else seen anything like it?
>
I've toyed with virtual pivot ideas on paper - it's not clear how
the "virtual monkey" (gotta love that name) keeps the two half-arms
pointing forward. Japanese computer text comes thru as garble
in my mail browser (probably 'cuz I haven't any Japanese
fonts & wouldn't understand it anyway). Can anyone post a
translation?
I like the minibike idea; good way to try out ffe's on
a small scale....?
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:19:52 +0000
From: "LTSNIDER"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
Actually, it was Osborne Engineering Company, but Odd Engineering
Contraption is appropriate. I wouldn't try to describe it, but
supposedly it was quite stable and they did race it in the Isle of
Man one year. The fork tubes/sliders/steering links were about 6
inches below the axle, and grounded on corners. The British described
the TT effort as "less successful than had been hoped". The year was
1927.
Yeah, I think so. I'm short on details, but back around the 30's there was a
British machine called the OEC (Odd Engineering Contraption) that had a
suspension that looks like it was functionally similiar. I think it used a
sliding pillar setup for suspension travel though.
LYNN SNIDER
"If at first you don't succeed, Your skydiving days are over."
Boise, Idaho
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:59:41 -0800
From: "Karlis Plinche"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
I have thinked about similar system some time ago, but this was the problem.
>From that pictures I can't understand, how it is done.
Karlis.
>I've toyed with virtual pivot ideas on paper - it's not clear how
>the "virtual monkey" (gotta love that name) keeps the two half-arms
>pointing forward.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 22:47:16 +0800
From: Les
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
Would you like a Japanese font for your browser? I'll mail it to you if
you want.
Best regards, Les
David Weinshenker wrote:
>
> Glenn Thomson wrote:
> >
> > I stumbled across this Japanese FFE today. I've heard of similar
> > things being done before (using virtual pivots), but I never saw
> > pictures or got any details.
> >
> > Anyone else seen anything like it?
> >
>
> I've toyed with virtual pivot ideas on paper - it's not clear how
> the "virtual monkey" (gotta love that name) keeps the two half-arms
> pointing forward. Japanese computer text comes thru as garble
> in my mail browser (probably 'cuz I haven't any Japanese
> fonts & wouldn't understand it anyway). Can anyone post a
> translation?
>
> I like the minibike idea; good way to try out ffe's on
> a small scale....?
>
> -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:33:11
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: MC-Chassis OT for those interested: Boring
New page added to Best MC site in tagline. Covers boring services for all
bikes, and big-boring for many small Hondas. Enjoy.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 14:49:25 -0800
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis november mags and a fast gs
There are some neat items in this months mags
Cycle world: The six stroke motor that has a two stroke atop a four
stroke.
Road and Track: They have an article about the year Kenny Roberts,
Mario Andretti and Speed all were champions
I almost bought a RGV from a guy who put a GSXR head on a GS500. They
are doing some more work to the motor and plan on getting 100hp out of
the motor. Hopefully I'll have pics and more info soon.
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
__
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:56:06 -0800
From: "Joe Allan"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis november mags and a fast gs
yhakim@m5.sprynet.com wrote:
>
> There are some neat items in this months mags
> Cycle world: The six stroke motor that has a two stroke atop a four
> stroke.
> --------------------------------snip------------------------- And for the Hyper buffs is a GSXR1300 and for the retro buffs the
"Indian" lookalike 1500 Kawi and the "Brit" lookalike 650 Twin. Neat.
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:54:45 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis 4LS brake adjusters
In case anyone is interested in the new additions section of the
graphics page you'll now find 4 pictures of different 4LS cable
balancing arrangements.
Some people on my vintage RR list were talking about them so I hunted
out some pictures.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #808
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Saturday, November 7 1998 Volume 01 : Number 809
1. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis 6 stroke & V8.
2. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis FFE
3. uranus Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #808
4. "Gary Beale" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis 6 stroke & V8.
5. Les Subj: MC-Chassis Japanese font
6. Dick Brewster Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Japanese font
7. Julian Bond Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #808
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 22:57:13 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis 6 stroke & V8.
> There are some neat items in this months mags
> Cycle world: The six stroke motor that has a two stroke atop a four
> stroke.
Is this the Beare 6 stroke ? I was actually with Malcolm today
up at the 4 day Ducati anniversary meeting at a track just north
of Melbourne called Broadford.
Alan Cathcart had another ride on it and also rode my 750-V8 in
race trim. It was really howling - I couldn't get him off it -
he had a grin from ear to ear.
I had a couple of silly minor problems like a water hose clamp
that was not tight and a circlip in the clutch that decided to
pop out ( for no obvious reason ) - but other than that it really
'hauled ass' as you guys say. I got pinged by the noise Nazis
but it sounds so much better with the silencers sleeved ( ie -
no silencing ).
One very embarrassing moment was to see Alan charge off then
come to a spluttering halt - forgot to plug the fuel pump in !
( Happens to us all )
Cheers IAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 23:35:29 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis FFE
> I stumbled across this Japanese FFE today. I've heard of similar
> things being done before (using virtual pivots), but I never saw
> pictures or got any details.
I can't read the text either so it is guess work to a
certain degree - it appears that the rake actually
changes with suspension travel ? ( as did the
Ner-a-car of the 1920's )
How do they give the wheel transverse support ? i.e -
stop the wheel moving from side to side ?
The supports will have to be good in bending in 2 planes
to give the wheel good support in any case - and good
in torsion to stop twisting ( looking front on ).
And 8 similarly strong pivots ( not counting the whole
assembly pivots ) - starts to look a bit heavy ???
Interesting though.
Cheers IAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:44:52
From: uranus
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #808
>From: Les
>Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FFE minibike
>
>Would you like a Japanese font for your browser? I'll mail it to you if
>you want.
>
>Best regards, Les
Hmm, I'd like one. Can you tell from where such a thing could be
downloaded? I've got friends who can translate.
Speaking of FFEs, my local bike shop has now decided to become an Italjet
dealer and now has an Italjet "Dragster" in the window, complete with fully
functional monoshock hub centre steering, space-frame chassis and pivoting
engine rear suspension. £2,495 for 125ccs. The steering joints are
covered in little rubber bootees so I can't see what they've used. I
wonder if FFEs are going to become more acceptable to mainstream
motorcycling as a result of their incrasing adoption on scooters - Peugeot
and others have got variations on the FFE theme going, and it seems to me
that the HCS is seen as the ultimate fashion statement at the moment.
David Thurgate (david@uranus.co.uk)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:02:49 -0500
From: "Gary Beale"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis 6 stroke & V8.
Gary Beale
gbeale@atlanta.dg.com
>
>Is this the Beare 6 stroke ? .
>
Yes.
>Alan Cathcart had another ride on it and also rode my 750-V8 in
>race trim. It was really howling - I couldn't get him off it -
>he had a grin from ear to ear.
>
Hope you get some good press out of it!
Gary Beale
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 09:02:37 +0800
From: Les
Subject: MC-Chassis Japanese font
Hi David,
The pack is called ie3lpkja.exe
It's a microsuck IE Japanese Language support pack. It works just fine
with Netscape (I haven't tried IE). Just run it and then select
"Japanese Auto-detect" from your "Character Set" options in the "View"
menu.
It's 2.4MB, so I'll let you do a search for it rather than stuff your
mailbox. I'll send it to you if you want, or upload it to my site.
Best regards, Les
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 18:48:24 -0800
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Japanese font
Hi Les,
I received this instead of David. But I have an interest too, so
thanks.
Dick
Les wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
> The pack is called ie3lpkja.exe
>
> It's a microsuck IE Japanese Language support pack. It works just fine
> with Netscape (I haven't tried IE). Just run it and then select
> "Japanese Auto-detect" from your "Character Set" options in the "View"
> menu.
>
> It's 2.4MB, so I'll let you do a search for it rather than stuff your
> mailbox. I'll send it to you if you want, or upload it to my site.
>
> Best regards, Les
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:13:39 +0000
From: Julian Bond
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #808
In article <3.0.1.16.19981106174452.11f7493e@uranus.easynet.co.uk>,
uranus writes
>Speaking of FFEs, my local bike shop has now decided to become an Italjet
>dealer and now has an Italjet "Dragster" in the window, complete with fully
>functional monoshock hub centre steering, space-frame chassis and pivoting
>engine rear suspension. £2,495 for 125ccs.
There's talk of a 180 Italjet dragster coming soon, and I believe
Malossi do tuning kits for the 125 twin. This is one seriously trick
looking scoot. I love it.
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #809
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Sunday, November 8 1998 Volume 01 : Number 810
1. "LTSNIDER" Subj: MC-Chassis Italjet
2. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: FFE
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis Shirt votes are tallied
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:02:41 +0000
From: "LTSNIDER"
Subject: MC-Chassis Italjet
Does anyone have a web address for Italjet? I tried to buy a 50
roadracer in the 70's but Italy was out for a long wine break and I
never got it.
LYNN SNIDER
"If at first you don't succeed, Your skydiving days are over."
Boise, Idaho
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:13:29 +0100
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: FFE
David asked:
<<
. I
wonder if FFEs are going to become more acceptable to mainstream
motorcycling as a result of their incrasing adoption on scooters - Peugeot
and others have got variations on the FFE theme going, and it seems to me
that the HCS is seen as the ultimate fashion statement at the moment.
>>
Don't get too excited, remember that scooters have used LL forks for a long
time. That didn't result in widespread use on proper motorcycles.
Tony Foale.
España / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 13:31:18 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis Shirt votes are tallied
(For you latecomers, the shirt designs appear at the bottom of the
first graphics page on the website.)
And the results of the great email list T-shirt design contest are:
(Designer, and number of votes for 1-5th place)
Paul Kellner == 19, 3, 2, 4, 1
Bruce Brown == 8, 13, 4, 1, 0
Ben Bennett == 3, 5, 3, 1, 6
Jon Hose = = 2, 2, 4, 6, 3
Jeff Rozycki == 0, 3, 5, 6, 5
As you can see, some people voted for only one or two shirts.
32 ballots were received.
The predominant color for Paul's shirt (13) is black.
The predominant color for Bruce's shirt (7) is red.
Ben and Jeff's and Jon's would be white.
There looks to be about 30 people who'd take a copy of Paul's shirt,
and about 28 for Bruce's design.
One problem I see with Paul's design is the large number of colors -
at least 5 (that I can spot) if printed on a black shirt. Each color
needs a separate screen, driving the price of the shirts up. If the
flags at the top were eliminated it might be doable with 3 colors,
though someone who is a graphics wizard might have to go through and
adjust the colors a bit where different hues/shadings are present.
Personally, I'd drop the flags as I've got specific lists for Italian
and Japanese bikes, and the other lists cover a wide range of other
nationalities that I'd imagine people wouldn't want slighted.
Bruce's shirt would need extra screens if the pocket logo was
printed.
All shirts would need to be modified a bit to add the new
Benelli-MotoBi list to the list of names.
There does seem to be a preference for the shirt having a pocket.
Bruce's pocket logo has been mentioned by several people as being of
interest for bike-sized stickers with the list names being added on to
the design, so think a bit about how that might appeal to you.
I'm going to contact one of the list members who is in the screen
printing trade and see what adjustments he thinks Paul's design might
need to be printable, along with a price quote etc. Sizes look to be
about 15 each of XL and L, and 5 of M (presuming the printer might
have some need to do the sizes in units of 5).
As soon as I get some price/printing problems/timeframe information
back I'll let the lists know what the likely cost of the shirt with
shipping would be, and then do a solicitation for firm orders in
anticipation of having shirts printed.
Cheers,
Michael
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End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #810
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