Motorcycle Chassis Design Digest #791-800
MC-Chassis-Dgst Wednesday, October 14 1998 Volume 01 : Number 791
1. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis EMT ??
2. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
3. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Steel frames
4. David E Harhay Subj: MC-Chassis Norton Manx
5. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
6. briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
7. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
8. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
9. Marty Maclean Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Norton Manx
10. briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
11. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis aluminum embossing
12. "Rui Fernandes" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis aluminum embossing
13. "Gary Beale" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis aluminum embossing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:52:13 +1000
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis EMT ??
> How about using EMT conduit for chassis work? It's extremly cheap, of
> consistant quality, and easy to work with. Yet there is something that
> bothers me about doing this....is it my natural bias agsainst anything that
> can be easily attained? What I'm thinking of specifically is building a
> chassis out of EMT and with all suspension components built of CrMo. Is
> this as sensible as it sounds?
Could you tell me what EMT is ? ( Not a common term in Oz )
2 things you need to avoid - high carbon mild steels - sort of
poor mans high tensile steel - prone to cracking near welds
and unpredictable to bend in thin wall thicknesses.
The second no-no is annealed tubing ( typically hydraulic tubing)
- - this is beautiful stuff to bend , flare etc as this what it was
developed for - however it will extrude under load even in a
well triangulated frame.
I once saw a RR sidecar chassis made from it and it had a big
sag in the middle despite being triangulated within an inch of
it's life.
Your comment that EMT is 'good' to work with rings alarm
bells - it needs to be good but not too good to work with.
That said - Laverda SF series twins ( super collectable SFC's
included ) use standard wall thickness nominal bore black
water pipe in their frames so don't be put off by something
being readily available and cheap.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 20:37:26 -0400
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
EMT is the metal tubing { pipe? } that electical wiring is run through in
commercial buildings. The stuff is totally unsuited to structural use. It
is not intended to be vibrated or otherwise stressed. It is intended to
protect and support the electircal wiring in buildings that can't have the
wiring inside the walls, such as a concrete block structure.
Ray
- ----------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:27:43 +0100
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Steel frames
>One fact that keeps comming up on this list is that all steels are
>basically of equal stiffness. The main difference between regular and high
>tensile steels appears to be that the high tensile steels will bend further
>without deforming.
>
>How about using EMT conduit for chassis work? It's extremly cheap, of
>consistant quality, and easy to work with. Yet there is something that
>bothers me about doing this....is it my natural bias agsainst anything that
>can be easily attained? What I'm thinking of specifically is building a
>chassis out of EMT and with all suspension components built of CrMo. Is
>this as sensible as it sounds?
>
>Sam
I've seen in the Brit Streetfighter mags examples of frames built from
water pipe (their description). It seems that it must be a different
material than the black cast-iron pipe available here in the US because the
bends were pretty smooth, and I've never been able to do that with such
pipe.
My only concern with the EMT is that it's designed to be easily bendable,
so I wonder how suitable it would be. However, with a good design, the
loads would all be in compression or tension only... in a perfect world. :)
I must endorse the idea for building 'stuff'... I've made bike stands,
tables, and am in the process of building a clamp rack with EMT. You're
right - it's cheap and readily available, in short, a good material.
However, on the bike stands, I discovered that it's a lot less stiff than
similarly sized CREW steel - to the point where the design had to be
modified to accomodate the material. In the end, someone stole it, and I
replaced it with a Pit Bull.
One last thing: a word of caution! If you do weld EMT, be aware that it's
galvanized, and welding it will produce toxic fumes. Any well stocked
welding shop should carry masks to protect against these fumes.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:45:08 -0400
From: David E Harhay
Subject: MC-Chassis Norton Manx
This is a bit off topic. A magazine called Strictly IC has an article
on machining a scale model Norton Manx engine! They do not
have the chassis part at all. They will be having the text and full
"B" size plans in the mag. With Winter almost upon us this would
be a nifty project. Then build the chassis for it.
- -Dave Harhay
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:27:33 -0700
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
Ian Drysdale wrote:
> Could you tell me what EMT is ? ( Not a common term in Oz )
EMT stands for "electrical metallic tubing" also known as
"thin-wall conduit". It is used for electrical wires, and is
anchored at the switchboxes etc. by fittings with clamp
rings or set screws, as the walls are too thin to cut pipe-threads.
It's typically very soft steel and may be close to the
annealed condition for ease of bending. I believe it is
typically electric welded and then mandrel-drawn to smooth
the inside. The outside is typically galvanized and the inside
often has a paint finish (for a smooth surface that does
not damage the insulation of wires being pulled through it).
It is very commonly used in interior wiring of commercial
buildings in the USA; I'm not familiar with Australian practice.
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 20:59:27 -0700
From: briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
>> How about using EMT conduit for chassis work? It's extremly cheap, of
>> consistant quality, and easy to work with. Yet there is something that
>> bothers me about doing this....is it my natural bias agsainst anything that
>> can be easily attained? What I'm thinking of specifically is building a
>> chassis out of EMT and with all suspension components built of CrMo. Is
>> this as sensible as it sounds?
>
>Could you tell me what EMT is ? ( Not a common term in Oz )
>
Ian:
EMT means Electro Mechanical Tubing, i.e., wire conduit. Usually cheap ERW
tubing with galvanized plating which makes welding it a bit dodgy. But it
can be made into hell-for-strong structure, given that you know how.
Brian
(umm..ERW, above, means Elctric Resistance Welded, in case you don't know that.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:04:00 -0700
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
Brian Knowles wrote:
> EMT means Electro Mechanical Tubing, i.e., wire conduit. Usually cheap ERW
> tubing with galvanized plating which makes welding it a bit dodgy. But it
> can be made into hell-for-strong structure, given that you know how.
How? Isn't it awful soft & ductile (to make it bend easily)?
I once ran across some "Shelby" tubing which was hot-rolled seamless
mild steel tubing, no plating, very nice for gas welding.
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 07:22:06
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
At 07:27 PM 10/13/98 -0700, you wrote:
> I believe it is
>typically electric welded and then mandrel-drawn to smooth
>the inside.
Only half right. They don't bother to DOM it.
Best regards,
Hoyt
Belfab CNC: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
Best MC Repair- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
Camping/Caving- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
News Flash: Bill Clinton burnt by cigar
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:30:31 -0700
From: Marty Maclean
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Norton Manx
David E Harhay wrote:
>
> This is a bit off topic. A magazine called Strictly IC has an article
> on machining a scale model Norton Manx engine! They do not
> have the chassis part at all. They will be having the text and full
> "B" size plans in the mag. With Winter almost upon us this would
> be a nifty project. Then build the chassis for it.
> -Dave Harhay
I've never heard of this magazine. Got any info or could you fax the
article - something like that?
Marty
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:05:35 -0700
From: briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis EMT ??
>Brian Knowles wrote:
>> EMT means Electro Mechanical Tubing, i.e., wire conduit. Usually cheap ERW
>> tubing with galvanized plating which makes welding it a bit dodgy. But it
>> can be made into hell-for-strong structure, given that you know how.
>
>How? Isn't it awful soft & ductile (to make it bend easily)?
>
>I once ran across some "Shelby" tubing which was hot-rolled seamless
>mild steel tubing, no plating, very nice for gas welding.
>
>-dave w
I've heard of "Shelby" tubing, but I'm not certian I ever personally met
any, I don't know anything about it.
My expierience with EMT is that it does not "bend easily". It can be bent,
but I don't think it has any special properties that way.
Tube structures are conceptually simple. No bent tubes, all loads to be
taken in compression, loads to be fed into the structure at tubing joints
only.
10 years ago, a friend who is a carpenter asked me to build him a custom
tool cabnet, came out as a 3"x3"x4" box on casters, made of 1/2" EMT, had
one un-braced bay where the door was to go, was quite spindely looking as a
frame, we loaded tested it by static loading a bit over a ton of pallets of
nails on the thing, without incedent.
Brian
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:36:29 -0700
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis aluminum embossing
On some aluminum twin spar frames the have an indented section; you can
kinda see it on this TZ frame: http://www.barebones.net/bbm500hon.jpg
At some point during it's life my bike had a kinda neat muffler bracket
made, it is just a small peice of sheet aluminum that also has a ridge
indented in it. That seems to make it pretty rigid, but still flexible
enough so there is a little give before the muffler or sub-frame bends.
How would one go about putting such indention in??
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
WMMRA 935
FZR 400/600
"It's not my fault" - Han Solo
"It's not my fault" - Lando Calrisian
______________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:58:29 -0400
From: "Rui Fernandes"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis aluminum embossing
I forget the name of the tool, but it has two rollers with a die at the end.
When sheet metal is fed into it, it creates a bead.
Now there's technical explanation.
Rui
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of
yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 2:36 PM
To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
Subject: MC-Chassis aluminum embossing
On some aluminum twin spar frames the have an indented section; you can
kinda see it on this TZ frame: http://www.barebones.net/bbm500hon.jpg
At some point during it's life my bike had a kinda neat muffler bracket
made, it is just a small peice of sheet aluminum that also has a ridge
indented in it. That seems to make it pretty rigid, but still flexible
enough so there is a little give before the muffler or sub-frame bends.
How would one go about putting such indention in??
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:09:28 -0400
From: "Gary Beale"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis aluminum embossing
There is a great tool out there called a "bead roller," and it is used for
stretching a small hump or ridge into sheet metal. By controlling where the
bead is placed you can indeed add stiffness to otherwise easily buckled
sheet metal. The tool has limitations as far as how far from the edge it is
able to work (throat depth) and how thick a material it can roll. Different
mandrels are usually available which can provide more rounded or squared
edges to the "bead."
Take a look at http://www.lowbucktools.com/ and go to the products
section.
Gary Beale
gbeale@atlanta.dg.com
>On some aluminum twin spar frames the have an indented section; you can
>kinda see it on this TZ frame: http://www.barebones.net/bbm500hon.jpg
>
>At some point during it's life my bike had a kinda neat muffler bracket
>made, it is just a small peice of sheet aluminum that also has a ridge
>indented in it. That seems to make it pretty rigid, but still flexible
>enough so there is a little give before the muffler or sub-frame bends.
>
>How would one go about putting such indention in??
>
>______________________________________________________
>Yousuf
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #791
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Thursday, October 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 792
1. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis aluminum embossing
2. bsags@isat.com (David Kath) Subj: MC-Chassis Steel tubing
3. Dick Brewster Subj: MC-Chassis emt
4. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Steel tubing
5. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Steel tubing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:38:32 -0400
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis aluminum embossing
Yousuf
These stiffening sections are added to "flat" sheet material by forming
over shaped patterns. The patterns can be made up from hard wood if
limited application is expected. (like a one off M/C Chassis) The "forming
block" has the finished shape plus provision for securing the sheet metal
prior to working, allowing creep to accommodate the dimensional changes.
Aviation practice always had these shapes made of "Micarta" for greater
durability.
The sheet metal blank, when fastened to the forming block, can then be
"hydroformed" using a thick pad of rubber (2 inches thick, or so) as the
hydraulic medium, or can be "beaten" by hand, using planishing hammers.
lead "whips", Shot filled bags and any other suitable tool. The
"rubberdraulic" method makes use of presses with some substantial tonnage
over large areas, but a shop press would work for our purposes. I have
seen male and female forms.
To end up with the required shape usually means "trial by error", with lots
of trimming.
The stiffness increase is very good and well worth the effort. Thin
sections offer good stiffness, as long as local loads do not result in oil
canning" These indents, limit the local deflections.
Small areas could best be "hammered in" using peen hammers and backing the
surface with a lead shot filled "bumping bag" I have several of these
still. palm sized leather bags with hand straps to relieve the grip
requirement. Work hardening of the material must be considered, but if the
deformation is not excessive, the working adds hardness to good advantage.
Practice yields useful results
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis aluminum embossing
> Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 2:36 PM
>
> On some aluminum twin spar frames the have an indented section; you can
> kinda see it on this TZ frame: http://www.barebones.net/bbm500hon.jpg
>
> At some point during it's life my bike had a kinda neat muffler bracket
> made, it is just a small peice of sheet aluminum that also has a ridge
> indented in it. That seems to make it pretty rigid, but still flexible
> enough so there is a little give before the muffler or sub-frame bends.
>
> How would one go about putting such indention in??
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Yousuf
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:33:12 -0700
From: bsags@isat.com (David Kath)
Subject: MC-Chassis Steel tubing
Gents... for some time I have held back my comments on the concept
espoused on this List repeatedly that "all steel tubing exibits equal
strength in a properly designed mc frame". I beg to differ. Please bear
in mind my "laymans" background. The gent that asked about using EMT for
a frame triggered these remarks. I believe he is speaking from "my side
of the room".
Some years ago we built a motocross "platform style", sidecar chassis
complete with swingarm suspension etc. for a Husky 450. It was designed
after the pro hack rigs from Europe, and welded up from 1" EMT tube. It
worked great, didn't break, and had no noticeable flex. However riding
this outfit at speed in the desert caused us to mentally break down....
we couldn't deal with the fear. Parked it. It was the thrill of all time
tho as I remember.
Back to the tubing question: I can not picture any bike frame that will
keep all loads on all tubes in compression or tension at all times. The
loads on the structure are just to complex. Now as an example, lets look
at a typical light aircraft fuselage which has a structure constructed
from tubing. The complex loads on this highly triangulated, complicated,
highly engineered structure are probably much the same nature as those
seen in a mc chassis. In other words a bending, twisting, vibrating,
dynamic load. And yes the steady state basic compression and tension
loads too. They are always built from gas welded chromoly tubing are
they not?
If I may oversimplify. If you load a tube in compression or tension,
support it so the load is always bearing directly from the ends, support
it throughout it's length so it is not allowed to bow or distort, do not
expose it to any vibration, wrap it in a support of the surface to
eliminate bursting, and yes, I imagine one piece of tubing is as good as
another pound for pound. (not nearly as strong as Sitka spruce however,
eh Bob?) However, this is not the application of tubing in a motorcycle
frame is it? Of course you can always make things 4-10 times heavier
than your concieved minimum strength required and it will work OK... Our
sidehack worked.
Ask an FAA Experimnetal Aircraft Inspector if he will sign off a
fuselage made from EMT. Watch his pupils dialate!
I certainly welcome the more knowledgeable amoungst us on this List to
correct my misconceptions on this subject of why to not always use
chromoly for a high performance mc chassis. I'm sure I'm not the only
person wondering...
TIA
dave - NV
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:28:24 -0700
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: MC-Chassis emt
Al wrote:
<< I must endorse the idea for building 'stuff'... I've made bike
stands,
tables, and am in the process of building a clamp rack with EMT.
You're
right - it's cheap and readily available, in short, a good
material.
However, on the bike stands, I discovered that it's a lot less
stiff than
similarly sized CREW steel - to the point where the design had to
be
modified to accomodate the material.
One last thing: a word of caution! If you do weld EMT, be aware
that it's
galvanized, and welding it will produce toxic fumes. Any well
stocked
welding shop should carry masks to protect against these fumes.
Al >>
I agree on using EMT for "stuff" but not frames. It bends very
easily and must have a tensile strength about the same as al
dente pasta. I saw a suggestion of using muriatic (swimming pool
strength hydrochloric) acid to remove the zinc plating. That
sounds fast and easy and a lot better than putting up with the
smelly zinc.
Dick
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 07:25:24
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Steel tubing
At 07:33 PM 10/14/98 -0700, you wrote:
>dynamic load. And yes the steady state basic compression and tension
>loads too. They are always built from gas welded chromoly tubing are
>they not?
They can be made lighter that way. The stronger tubing is still doing its
job at higher deflections, and if it is lighter, it will deflect more.
Most aircraft have very little motor-indiced vibes because they hang them
on fancy isolation mounts. This is not possible w/ MC because the frame
loses a lot of bracing effect. In airframes small defections do not produce
bad handling behaviors, though I have heard accounts of aircraft which did
have violent shuddering and shaking from aero forces, these are usually
not in the same league as a full-scale tank slapper and they in fact do not
result from the properties of the airframe but from things like control
surfaces which are not properly balanced to the aero forces (IE, there is
too much area ahead of the hinge line, a common trick to reduce control
forces in manually activated systems).
>
>I certainly welcome the more knowledgeable amoungst us on this List to
>correct my misconceptions on this subject of why to not always use
>chromoly for a high performance mc chassis.
You should of course, if crash-proofing is a need. They survive whangiings
that make piles out of lesser materials and they will never fatigue, but
they will not handle better.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:55:39 -0400
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Steel tubing
Dave, some thoughts on this subject.
- ----------
the concept
> espoused on this List repeatedly that "all steel tubing exibits equal
> strength in a properly designed mc frame".
Actual the equality is "stiffness" or "modulus of elasticity"
How much will the material deflect with a given load. Strength is
different.
>
>
> Back to the tubing question: I can not picture any bike frame that will
> keep all loads on all tubes in compression or tension at all times. The
> loads on the structure are just to complex. Now as an example, lets look
> at a typical light aircraft fuselage which has a structure constructed
> from tubing. The complex loads on this highly triangulated, complicated,
> highly engineered structure are probably much the same nature as those
> seen in a mc chassis. In other words a bending, twisting, vibrating,
> dynamic load. And yes the steady state basic compression and tension
> loads too. They are always built from gas welded chromoly tubing are
> they not?
Not always. There are as many "Truss" configurations as there are bridges
it seems, but many early aircraft structures were composed of wooden
members braced by pinned compression members, also wood and the whole works
triangulated by wire. Certainly no "complicated loads" can be carried by a
piece of wire.
Stressed skin is the contemporary structure.
> If I may oversimplify. If you load a tube in compression or tension,
> support it so the load is always bearing directly from the ends, support
> it throughout it's length so it is not allowed to bow or distort, do not
> expose it to any vibration, wrap it in a support of the surface to
> eliminate bursting, and yes, I imagine one piece of tubing is as good as
> another pound for pound. (not nearly as strong as Sitka spruce however,
> eh Bob?)
Spruce has an enviable position of one of the best overall load carrying to
weight ratio. Considering compressive and tensile loads.
However, this is not the application of tubing in a motorcycle
> frame is it? Of course you can always make things 4-10 times heavier
> than your concieved minimum strength required and it will work OK... Our
> sidehack worked.
>
> Ask an FAA Experimnetal Aircraft Inspector if he will sign off a
> fuselage made from EMT. Watch his pupils dialate!
>
EMT is junk! with no calculable load values, and the welds will always be
a problem.
If you choose to fly your hack low to the ground, and accept the risk,
fine. The FAA would like to help you minimize your risk by supporting
conservative methods and materials. If you go to the effort to quantify
your structure and do static load testing, the FAA inspector will be
obliged to at least consider your choice of materials.
> I certainly welcome the more knowledgeable amoungst us on this List to
> correct my misconceptions on this subject of why to not always use
> chromoly for a high performance mc chassis.
Cro Mo offers a readily available, well characterized material that
provides useful strength to weight ratios, and is readily joined by common
methods.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #792
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, October 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 793
1. bob Peterson Subj: MC-Chassis featherbed frame
2. Bob & Jean Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Steel tubing
3. Bob & Jean Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Norton Manx
4. "Sam Stoney" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Steel Tubing
5. Lauren Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Steel Tubing
6. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Steel tube
7. SCOTTA336@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis Eccentric Chain Adjustment
8. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Eccentric Chain Adjustment
9. Bob & Jean Subj: MC-Chassis Books for sale [casting]
10. briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Books for sale [casting]
11. "Glenn Thomson" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Steel tubing
12. GD Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Books for sale [casting]
13. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis featherbed frame
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:03:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: bob Peterson
Subject: MC-Chassis featherbed frame
Does anyone know of a source for the dimensions of the slimline
featherbed frame? My '64 Atlas suffered some frame damage at the AHRMA
race in Taladega and I would like to have accurate dimensions before
proceeding to repair it.
TIA
==
Bob Peterson
Gainesville, FL
'96 Buell S2; '64 Norton Atlas Cafe'
buell_s2@yahoo.com
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:36:09 -0700
From: Bob & Jean
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Steel tubing
though I have heard accounts of aircraft which did
> have violent shuddering and shaking from aero forces, these are usually
> not in the same league as a full-scale tank slapper
> Hoyt
Not so sure of that, I flew on one from Detriot to Halifax and it felt
like it was going to fall out of the sky, I'd have rather endured a tank
slapper and had it done and over with. Yeah I know, I could have wound
up dead either way, in the latter I'd have known a lot sooner. Cheers
Bob
PS The above missive is for entertainment purposes only.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:36:28 -0700
From: Bob & Jean
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Norton Manx
Strictly I C can be contactedv at:
Strictly I C Publishing
24920 43rd Ave. S.
Kent, Wa. 98032-4160 USA
Cheers Bob
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:04:47 -0700
From: "Sam Stoney"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Steel Tubing
OK, I've read a lot of email, both on and off line regarding my post asking
about using EMT for frames and I've now formed an opinion of my own:
Firstly, be careful when welding EMT. The vapors are TOXIC.
Most all steels are equally stiff. By stiff I mean that if you apply a
certain force to a given size and profile of steel it will deflect a
certain amount. That amount of deflection does not vary from steel to
steel. If we design a frame with no deflection the type of steel is
irrelevant. The difference between steels shows in how they react once that
force is removed The EMT is more likely to just stay where the force moved
it, IE it will bend. Better steel will spring back to it's original
position.
Airplanes flex. Forces are distributed over huge areas and weight is
critical - there's no way to build flex out of the system. That's why CrMo
is necessary. Motorcycle frames are smaller, and should be designed to flex
as little as possible. For this reason CrMo is not necessarily the best
solution. Why not just go with the better steel? Because CrMo is more
difficult to weld properly, it is harder to work with, and more expensive.
Using CrMo won't make your frame stiffer, just more resiliant.
CrMo makes sense in some places. Suspensions, which almost invariably flex.
If I were reproducing a vintage frame that I knew flexed, I'd use it. But
mild steel makes more sense if you are confident that you have a relativly
stiff frame design.
So EMT would perform equally to CrMo in an application where there was
little or no bending going on. But only where you were comparing equal
profiles. The problem here is that comparison can't be made as the two type
of tubes are welded differently. Depending on who you ask, the EMT welds
are suspect; tho people have emails me saying they've seen failures alone
EMT welds.
So - I'll work with mild steel for chassis work, CrMo for suspension, and
EMT in a pinch. And I'll design according to each material.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:58:57 -0700
From: Lauren
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Steel Tubing
At 12:04 PM 10/15/98 , Sam Stoney wrote:
>
>
>OK, I've read a lot of email, both on and off line regarding my post asking
>about using EMT for frames and I've now formed an opinion of my own:
>
>Firstly, be careful when welding EMT. The vapors are TOXIC.
>
Be VERY careful - when I was young I almost put myself in the hospital when
I welded some galvinized pipe - I got REALLY sick!
FWIW,
LCB
'91 BMW R100GS - Geist der Freiheit
'94 Suzuki DR350ES
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 20:08:53 +0200
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Steel tube
Dave said:
<<
Gents... for some time I have held back my comments on the concept
espoused on this List repeatedly that "all steel tubing exibits equal
strength in a properly designed mc frame".
>>
I don't recall any discussions on this list about all steel tubing having
equal STRENGTH.
On the otherhand, it has been pointed out many times that size for size all
steel tubing has more or less the same STIFFNESS.
Tony Foale.
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:26:08 EDT
From: SCOTTA336@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Eccentric Chain Adjustment
Boys-
>From the latest Roadracing World, a description of Kurtis Roberts' RS 250...
"A unique feature on Roberts' bike was a rear axle double-eccentric system
that could be rotated to adjust the chain without changing the ride height, a
system that Turfrey (tuner Brian), coining a cool word, called "obcentrics".
My brain hurts trying to picture this. Plus I can't seem to get the word
"obstetrics" out of my mind.
- -A
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:05:58
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Eccentric Chain Adjustment
At 03:26 PM 10/15/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Boys-
>My brain hurts trying to picture this. Plus I can't seem to get the word
>"obstetrics" out of my mind.
Just imagine a big eccentric each side like usual but maybe larger, and a
smaller one inside it, perhaps fixed by key to the axle. You would need
accurate index marks on the outer and SA, since there's no way to key the
big ones together. You would move them in opposite directions, yes?
Best wishes,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:23:50 -0700
From: Bob & Jean
Subject: MC-Chassis Books for sale [casting]
Couple weeks back I said I had some books about casting, finally found
them, here goes:
Lil Bertha, A compact electric resistance shop furnace. by David Gingery
$5
Metal Casters Bible, C W Ammen $10
Practical Wood Pattern Making, J Robert Hall $10
Green Sand Casting, $5
Hard Chrome Plating, Robert Guffie, $10
Pressworking of Metals, C W Himmen $10
All books are in new condition, all prices are plus shipping and in US
funds, first come, first serve. Cheers
Bob "is poking a tree goosing a spruce?" Bickers
Sutherlin Or. USA
Goldie
Willy
Uftah
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:54:48 -0700
From: briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Books for sale [casting]
>Couple weeks back I said I had some books about casting, finally found
>them, here goes:
>Practical Wood Pattern Making, J Robert Hall $10
>Green Sand Casting, $5
If you toss these two in a box and ship 'em UP collect, I'll take 'em.
Brian Knowles
129 Adler, #2
Campbell, CA
95008
Thanks,
Brian
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 21:14:57 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Steel tubing
On 14 Oct 98, David Kath wrote:
> Gents... for some time I have held back my comments on the concept
> espoused on this List repeatedly that "all steel tubing exibits
> equal strength in a properly designed mc frame".
Uh, no, the word was stiffness. It's like this: *Everything*
flexes under load, whether you notice it or not. All steels will
deform the same amount under the same load, until the limit is reached
for the weakest. Up to this point, if the load is removed, all steels
will return to the rest position. After this point, stronger steels
will stand more load, but the stiffness (load/deflection) will stay the
same.
In practical terms, if your frame flexes (but doesn't permanently
deform), fancy steel won't help: You need to work on the deflection
(stiffness) first.
On 15 Oct 98, Dick Brewster wrote:
> I agree on using EMT for "stuff" but not frames. It bends very
> easily and must have a tensile strength about the same as al
> dente pasta. I saw a suggestion of using muriatic (swimming pool
> strength hydrochloric) acid to remove the zinc plating. That sounds
> fast and easy and a lot better than putting up with the smelly zinc.
Muriatic works great for removing zinc (and piston smears, for the
two strokers on the list) but don't use it indoors unless you want
to promote corrosion on any steel in the vicinity.
Don't ask how I know......
Cheers,
Glenn
gthomson(at)bserv.com
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:52:36 -0700
From: GD
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Books for sale [casting]
What do you want for the whole lot?
GD
Bob & Jean wrote:
> Couple weeks back I said I had some books about casting, finally found
>
> them, here goes:
> Lil Bertha, A compact electric resistance shop furnace. by David
> Gingery
> $5
> Metal Casters Bible, C W Ammen $10
> Practical Wood Pattern Making, J Robert Hall $10
> Green Sand Casting, $5
> Hard Chrome Plating, Robert Guffie, $10
> Pressworking of Metals, C W Himmen $10
> All books are in new condition, all prices are plus shipping and in US
>
> funds, first come, first serve. Cheers
>
> Bob "is poking a tree goosing a spruce?" Bickers
> Sutherlin Or. USA
> Goldie
> Willy
> Uftah
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:08:32 -0400
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis featherbed frame
Bob
I recently saw a webb location supported by a college group trying to make
a commercial go of "feather bed" reproductions. You may be able to get
info there. "Sorry, I do not have the URL. Search "feather bed" or
Norton and see.
Regards
Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: bob Peterson
> To: chassis design
> Subject: MC-Chassis featherbed frame
> Date: Thursday, October 15, 1998 9:03 AM
>
> Does anyone know of a source for the dimensions of the slimline
> featherbed frame? My '64 Atlas suffered some frame damage at the AHRMA
> race in Taladega and I would like to have accurate dimensions before
> proceeding to repair it.
> TIA
>
>
>
>
>
> ==
> Bob Peterson
> Gainesville, FL
> '96 Buell S2; '64 Norton Atlas Cafe'
> buell_s2@yahoo.com
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #793
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Sunday, October 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 794
1. "Rick" Subj: MC-Chassis Digital Dash ??????
2. "Rick" Subj: MC-Chassis 315 HP GSXR !!!!!!!
3. "Frank Camillieri" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis featherbed frame
4. Bob & Jean Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Books for sale [casting]
5. Bob & Jean Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Books for sale [casting]
6. David Weinshenker Subj: MC-Chassis can this RZ be saved?
7. SCOTTA336@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis RS125 weights
8. "Jim Schneider" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis RS125 weights
9. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis can this RZ be saved?
10. Les Mulder Subj: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visited
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:09:57 -0700
From: "Rick"
Subject: MC-Chassis Digital Dash ??????
Has anyone seen a digital dash like the Pi unit without the Pi cost =
all I really need is RPM and Temp.
=20
Turbo Rick
300HP Turbo GSXR1100 Street bike And Performance Bikes
Links Page, Chat Room=20
Web Site http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/
Technical info http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/specs.html
Pictures http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/pictures.html
Land speed Racing http://members.xoom.com/gsxr1127/lsr.html
Turbobike Mailing List send mail to turbobike-request@natvideo.com =
with SUBSCRIBE in the message body
Online motorcycle book store =
http://members.xoom.com/gsxr1127/book1.htm
EL Mirage Land speed Record holder 204.626 MPH
E-mail gsxr1100@ptw.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:43:16 -0700
From: "Rick"
Subject: MC-Chassis 315 HP GSXR !!!!!!!
Did some more testing on the dyno and got 315 HP at 22 psi of boost you =
can see the dyno chart at http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/dyno.html=20
=20
=20
Turbo Rick
300HP Turbo GSXR1100 Street bike And Performance Bikes
Links Page, Chat Room=20
Web Site http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/
Technical info http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/specs.html
Pictures http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/pictures.html
Land speed Racing http://members.xoom.com/gsxr1127/lsr.html
Turbobike Mailing List send mail to turbobike-request@natvideo.com with =
SUBSCRIBE in the message body
Online motorcycle book store http://members.xoom.com/gsxr1127/book1.htm
EL Mirage Land speed Record holder 204.626 MPH
E-mail gsxr1100@ptw.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:55:59 -0400
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis featherbed frame
I recently saw a webb location supported by a college group trying to make a
commercial go of "feather bed" reproductions. You may be able to get info
there. "Sorry, I do not have the URL. Search "feather bed" or Norton and see.
Times New RomanBob,
The guy to contact is Jonas Zahn at jazahn@students.wisc.edu
Regards,
Frank Camillieri
Chester, NH
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:14:47 -0700
From: Bob & Jean
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Books for sale [casting]
GD, $35+ postage for those that are left. Cheers Bob
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 15:31:23 -0700
From: Bob & Jean
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Books for sale [casting]
Brian Knowles, tried contacting you, your e-mail bounced, would you send
me anything so I can capture your address. Thanks Bob
PS The books are in the mail.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:52:18 -0700
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: MC-Chassis can this RZ be saved?
Hello, I realize this is more of a "repair" than a "design"
question, but I hope this is a good place to ask it anyway.
I just got rear-ended on my RZ350, no injury, but the rear
portion of the frame got bent up sharply, about 20-30
degrees or so - "stretch marks" of cracked paint are clearly
evident on the underside of each rail at the bend site.
(I haven't looked that closely yet, but it didn't seem to
be buckled on top, but just stretched on the underside.)
I'm having a local shop check that there was no other
chassis damage (swingarm knocked out of whack etc.)
but as the rear wheel remained quite round and true
and nothing else on the frame looked bent, I am wondering:
Is there a way to straighten the rear frame section, assuming
that the damage is as localized as it appears to be,
without making a dangerous weak place that might crack
under the weight of the rider on the seat???
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 03:01:30 EDT
From: SCOTTA336@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis RS125 weights
Boys-
Post season teardown is in progress, and while everything's apart I figured
I'd trot the bits over to the trusty bathroom scale for trivia's sake.
Frame - 17 lbs
Swingarm - 6 lbs
Motor - 42 lbs
Front wheel (Marchesini 3 spoke mag) w/rotor, tire, axle - 15 lbs
Rear wheel (Marchesini 3 spoke mag)w/ rotor, tire, no axle nor sprocket - 16
lbs
Forks (WP) & triple clamp w/ bearings - 14 lbs.
That's the bulk of what ends up being a 150 -odd lb motorcycle.
- -Scott A
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 02:08:11 -0600
From: "Jim Schneider"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis RS125 weights
Scott,
can you give us the tire brands and sizes, and the rim sizes??
Thanks
Jim
Swiss
Subject: MC-Chassis RS125 weights
>Frame - 17 lbs
>Swingarm - 6 lbs
>Motor - 42 lbs
>Front wheel (Marchesini 3 spoke mag) w/rotor, tire, axle - 15 lbs
>Rear wheel (Marchesini 3 spoke mag)w/ rotor, tire, no axle nor sprocket -
16
>lbs
>Forks (WP) & triple clamp w/ bearings - 14 lbs.
>
>That's the bulk of what ends up being a 150 -odd lb motorcycle.
>
>-Scott A
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 07:02:31
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis can this RZ be saved?
At 08:52 PM 10/16/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Is there a way to straighten the rear frame section, assuming
>that the damage is as localized as it appears to be,
>without making a dangerous weak place that might crack
>under the weight of the rider on the seat???
Heat only the outside of the bend, or you'll stretch a big grinning crack
intot he tubing. Let the red flow up from there about 80% of the
circumference. Keep steady pressure on it and let the heat make it move. YMMV.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:16:52 +1000
From: Les Mulder
Subject: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visited
A wee whilie ago there was a thread on the list about what to dip frames
into to remove rust and other sh1t.
Yesterday I was talking to a bloke who restores old stationary engines
and he reckons when he finds an engine that's been in a shed for 30+
years, the first thisg he does is put it in a near saturated solution of
molasses (!!!???!) for about a week, at which point is can be removed,
hosed down & disasembled quite easily.
Has anyone on the list heard of this practice? Or is my mate pulling the
leg of a city slicker?
ttfn
Les
Les Mulder
Technical Director
Mulder Communications
t +61-2-9437-9144
f +61-2-9437-9344
e les@mulcoms.com.au
w http://les.ozemail.com.au
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #794
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Monday, October 19 1998 Volume 01 : Number 795
1. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visited
2. Hnry@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis Re: molasses for rust removal
3. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: MC-Chassis swingarm shown on site
4. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visited
5. Dick Brewster Subj: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visite
6. Mark Mason Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visited
7. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis RGV bits
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 06:48:52
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visited
At 06:16 PM 10/18/98 +1000, you wrote:
>Yesterday I was talking to a bloke who restores old stationary engines
>and he reckons when he finds an engine that's been in a shed for 30+
>years, the first thisg he does is put it in a near saturated solution of
>molasses (!!!???!) for about a week, at which point is can be removed,
>hosed down & disasembled quite easily.
It might work. We use Coca-Cola in the States.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 07:26:48 EDT
From: Hnry@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: molasses for rust removal
Hello,
Recent post included,
> an engine that's been in a shed for 30+
> years, the first thisg he does is put it in a near saturated solution of
> molasses (!!!???!) for about a week, at which point is can be removed,
> hosed down & disasembled quite easily.
This has some merit. I read of using a 1 part blackstrap molasses + 4 parts
water solution to remove rust inside motorcycle gas tanks. Tried it on a badly
rusted, "varnish clinker" filled, tank. Completely filled tank, soaked for 12
days. Shook it up about every other day, with a handful of BB's inside. This
stripped the rust out very well, left some of the evaporated gas "varnish
clinker" intact.
Scott Jameson
Greenville, South Carolina
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 08:13:26
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: MC-Chassis swingarm shown on site
Pic of the Yam XS650 SA is finally up on site. Go to the Best MC URL in
tagline, follow link to 'Swingarms'. I also made a page for CPSO for forks.
Enjoy.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 09:38:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visited
- -> Has anyone on the list heard of this practice? Or is my mate pulling
- -> the leg of a city slicker?
I dunno. Acetic acid works well to remove rust, though. Ordinary
vinegar will work slowly, but pickling vinegar is faster. Drop the
parts in a bucket of the stuff and leave them for a week or so. I do it
for things that are hard to clean with the wire wheel.
==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 09:56:58 -0700
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visite
Les wrote:
<< A wee whilie ago there was a thread on the list about what to
dip frames
into to remove rust and other sh1t.
Yesterday I was talking to a bloke who restores old stationary
engines
and he reckons when he finds an engine that's been in a shed for
30+
years, the first thisg he does is put it in a near saturated
solution of
molasses (!!!???!) for about a week, at which point is can be
removed,
hosed down & disasembled quite easily.
Has anyone on the list heard of this practice? Or is my mate
pulling the
leg of a city slicker?
Les >>
I have heard of using a molasses in water to remove rust from
several sources but haven't tried it myself.
IIRC, you don't want to do it on an assembled engine if the
engine has any aluminum in it.
>From what I recall, you have to soak the parts for 10 to 20 days
in a solution of approximately 1 part molasses to 7 parts water.
You should be able to find something by doing a search on
moalasses and rust.
I've heard of people using the process in
rec.crafts.metalworking.
Dick
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:52:41 -0400
From: Mark Mason
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visited
> Yesterday I was talking to a bloke who restores old stationary
> engines and he reckons when he finds an engine that's been in a shed
> for 30+ years, the first thisg he does is put it in a near saturated
> solution of molasses (!!!???!) for about a week, at which point is
> can be removed, hosed down & disasembled quite easily.
>
> Has anyone on the list heard of this practice? Or is my mate pulling
> the leg of a city slicker?
Nope, it's for real. Another source of phosphoric acid, same as Coca
Cola or naval jelly. Just don't use it on any non-ferrous metals.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:24:59 -0700
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis RGV bits
OK listers, I've recently had the option of buying a RGV frame and wheels.
What I need to get it rolling are: A subframe, swingarm, and I was planning
on using a GSXR front end unless I can find a cheaper RGV bits. I was
planning on sticking in a big thumper and running it on the street for a bit
before I take it racing. So if anyone has bits and peices or knows of a good
place to get the same, lemme know.
Thanks
Yousuf
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #795
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Thursday, October 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 796
1. bsags@isat.com (David Kath) Subj: MC-Chassis Brake lever/linkage
2. Dick Brewster Subj: MC-Chassis Re: molasses for rust removal
3. briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visited
4. briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visite
5. Les Sharp Subj: MC-Chassis Analysis
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:30:14 -0700
From: bsags@isat.com (David Kath)
Subject: MC-Chassis Brake lever/linkage
Gents... I would greatly appreciate information on "The best", way to
buy or fab a front brake lever on the bars for a Yam 250mm TZ 4 leading
shoe brake for our Seeley BSA GS AHRMA project which is underway. We
have no prior experience with a brake this complex. I suppose a balance
linkage will be necessary to eliminate the need for extremely accurate
cable length adjustments. What did Yam use originally? I believe we are
capable of building what will be required. Only want to have to do it
once tho, and of course would like to avoid "reinventing the wheel".
Also we have 2 different models of Ceriani "RR" front fork assys
available for use on this bike. They are both app 28" from axle center
to top of tube, and both in very good condition it would appear. They
are complete with factory clamp sets. The set that came with the bike
when purchased is the more common model I have seen on many dirt
trackers. It has the fore and aft type mounting tabs for a front fender
mount on the lower sliders, adjusters on the top tube caps, and approx 2
3/8" offset in the clamps. The other set, very new looking, was found
abandoned in a trash heap in the desert, on a garbaged short tracker
frame. (heh-heh, some times a guy gets lucky if you're always looking..)
They're identifieable by the factory "turned down", lower sliders with
the fender backet a machined boss facing inward. The offset in the
clamps is approx 2 7/8".
My questions: Which set of forks is the best? We understand the
mix/match potential using the different clamps. Sheeze, I forsee a mind
bending setup problem due to the opitions available! Any and all info on
these forks would be greatly appreciated. Contacts? Other builders? Your
experiences?
TIA, dave - NV
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:48:41 -0700
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: molasses for rust removal
Scott wrote:
<< Hello,
Recent post included,
> an engine that's been in a shed for 30+
> years, the first thisg he does is put it in a near saturated solution of
> molasses (!!!???!) for about a week, at which point is can be removed,
> hosed down & disasembled quite easily.
This has some merit. I read of using a 1 part blackstrap molasses
+ 4 parts
water solution to remove rust inside motorcycle gas tanks. Tried
it on a badly
rusted, "varnish clinker" filled, tank. Completely filled tank,
soaked for 12
days. Shook it up about every other day, with a handful of BB's
inside. This
stripped the rust out very well, left some of the evaporated gas
"varnish
clinker" intact.
Scott Jameson
Greenville, South Carolina >>
The nasty carb cleaner that comes in a can with a basket to hold
carb parts does a nice job of stripping out the "varnish" before
you go into the rust removal mode. It will also "strip out"
elastomers, so take the drain valve off and don't use the normal
tank cap.
Dick
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:50:05 -0700
From: briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visited
>A wee whilie ago there was a thread on the list about what to dip frames
>into to remove rust and other sh1t.
>
>Yesterday I was talking to a bloke who restores old stationary engines
>and he reckons when he finds an engine that's been in a shed for 30+
>years, the first thisg he does is put it in a near saturated solution of
>molasses (!!!???!) for about a week, at which point is can be removed,
>hosed down & disasembled quite easily.
>
>Has anyone on the list heard of this practice? Or is my mate pulling the
>leg of a city slicker?
>
>ttfn
>
>Les
>
>Les Mulder
I've been soaking a 30 year old Alfa Romeo brake part in molassis for a week now
it's wet and smells good, but as rusty as ever.
I suspect that what I'm calling "molassis" may not be what the rust removal
guys have in mind. But, I've never had any rust grow on my french toast,
either.
Brian
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:59:19 -0700
From: briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Paint and rust stripping from steel re-visite
>Les wrote:
>
><< A wee whilie ago there was a thread on the list about what to
>dip frames
>into to remove rust and other sh1t.
>
>Yesterday I was talking to a bloke who restores old stationary
>engines
>and he reckons when he finds an engine that's been in a shed for
>30+
>years, the first thisg he does is put it in a near saturated
>solution of
>molasses (!!!???!) for about a week, at which point is can be
>removed,
>hosed down & disasembled quite easily.
>
>Has anyone on the list heard of this practice? Or is my mate
>pulling the
>leg of a city slicker?
>
>Les >>
>
>I have heard of using a molasses in water to remove rust from
>several sources but haven't tried it myself.
>
>IIRC, you don't want to do it on an assembled engine if the
>engine has any aluminum in it.
>
>>From what I recall, you have to soak the parts for 10 to 20 days
>in a solution of approximately 1 part molasses to 7 parts water.
>You should be able to find something by doing a search on
>moalasses and rust.
>
>I've heard of people using the process in
>rec.crafts.metalworking.
>
>Dick
There a FAQ at http://www.foxberry.net/dondon/rustfaq.html that describes a
way of removing rust bigtime. No molassis; electrolytic conversion! Works
better than anything I've ever seen before. Now looking for a swimming
pool and a couple of arc welders ;-)
Brian
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:33:53 +0800
From: Les Sharp
Subject: MC-Chassis Analysis
Hi,
I've got a material report on some "steel" and wonder if anyone wants to
hazard a guess as to what this is:
Cu: 0.079
C : 0.455
Si: 0.207
Mn: 0.884
P : 0.015
S : <0.009
Ni: <0.030
Cr: 0.144
Mo: <0.002
V : 0.018
- --
Best regards, Les
"Eye pierce heaven, foot stick in mud"
Planet Gearhead: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/conten~1.htm
Orange Wings: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/wings
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #796
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Thursday, October 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 797
1. Michael Andrusiewicz Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
2. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
3. "Calvin Grandy" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
4. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: MC-Chassis making clamps
5. aburnett@esoc.esa.de Subj: MC-Chassis Introduction and questions (Egli style frames)
6. Dick Brewster Subj: MC-Chassis Analysis
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:20:01 -0400
From: Michael Andrusiewicz
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
Les Sharp wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've got a material report on some "steel" and wonder if anyone wants to
> hazard a guess as to what this is:
>
> Cu: 0.079
> C : 0.455
> Si: 0.207
> Mn: 0.884
> P : 0.015
> S : <0.009
> Ni: <0.030
> Cr: 0.144
> Mo: <0.002
> V : 0.018
> --
> Best regards, Les
>
> "Eye pierce heaven, foot stick in mud"
> Planet Gearhead: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/conten~1.htm
> Orange Wings: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/wings
Well it adds to 1.83....which doesn't indicate percentages. But I'm
sure one of the metelurgical gurus knows for sure.
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:11:58
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
If it's high in Mn low in Mo and high in Cr, it sounds as if it could be
one of Reynolds bike-frame alloys, perhaps 513? I thought they had higher
percentages, if that's what those are. They claim it has great workability
and fatigue resistance.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
At 04:33 PM 10/22/98 +0800, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I've got a material report on some "steel" and wonder if anyone wants to
>hazard a guess as to what this is:
>
>Cu: 0.079
>C : 0.455
>Si: 0.207
>Mn: 0.884
>P : 0.015
>S : <0.009
>Ni: <0.030
>Cr: 0.144
>Mo: <0.002
>V : 0.018
>--
>Best regards, Les
>
>"Eye pierce heaven, foot stick in mud"
>Planet Gearhead: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/conten~1.htm
>Orange Wings: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/wings
>
-------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:25:00 -0400
From: "Calvin Grandy"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
Oh! don't overlook the obvious. Fe
Regards
Calvin Grandy
Sorry I haven't a reference here at work,
- ----------
> >
> > I've got a material report on some "steel" and wonder if anyone wants
to
>
> Well it adds to 1.83....which doesn't indicate percentages. But I'm
> sure one of the metelurgical gurus knows for sure.
> Mike
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:44:08
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: MC-Chassis making clamps
Since I put the fork clamps up on site, I've enquiries as to how they're
made, and thought the process might be of more general interest:
Fork clamps have loads applied in three ways and their design should
reflect that: 1) bending parallel to tubes, 2) bending at right angles to
them and 3) torsion. The first of these is rigidly distributed between the
two clamps by the fork tubes hence they both deflect almost exactly the
same amount no matter how thick each. The second load is imposed more on
the bottom clamp and it should be made stronger; if the thickness of the
upper is proportional to the distance from lower to axle, then the
thickness of the lower should be so to the distance between upper and axle.
Anyway I usually use 3/4" to 7/8" for top clamps and 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" for
bottoms. This allows one to conveniently double-pinch bottoms and
single-pinch tops, perhaps with a larger bolt. In the third case the
torsion is also equally distributed but reduced in magnitude considerably
by good, hard clamping on stem and tubes; I leave extra thickness in the
tube-pinches for that and so users can have them machined again for bigger
fork legs if desired. I have several times used similar thickness for both
top and bottom and double-pinched both; in these cases the top may be later
relieved in thickness elsewhere if desired.
Most clamps can be made in essentially 2D outlines with special features
such as stops and bar mounts as add ons; stops in particular are much
stronger if one uses steel bolts in through-holes, and the user can replace
them if damaged. Also, whereas the top clamp should be pinch-bolted to the
stem, the bottoms *must* be pressed or pinched partly depending on
clearance issues under the steering head. The one exception to the
pinched-top rule would be when SH bngs are interference mounted in the
clamps on their ODs (as used by early Maico), a better system because stem
flex or play under the bng is then not an issue. I've made a number of this
style for various of my own bikes and it makes a noticable difference; this
is probably why the handling of early Maicos was legenday. The drawback is
that you can only do this with bngs specifically designed to mount on their
ODs or which can be modded to that, and this excludes tapered roller bngs.
Though mostly I leave the clamps full thickness in interest of max bending
resistance I have several times bored them hollow starting outside the eye,
going through the pinch slit, and aiming just short of the stem boss. This
may save a few oz, does not affect torsional strength much but does
slightly increase bending deflections, a matter of no practical importance.
In one of the hollowed sets, I pressed plugs onto shoulders in the holes
and then bored their exposed surfaces with the pinch diameters, in interest
of keeping all of the clamping area. I noticed recent GSXR bottoms are also
hollow and they look real good for factory units. IMHO aftermarket clamps
which are relieved underneath are much less stiff than solid and certainly
all that milling is expensive; here then is one place where good use can be
made of a few oz extra wgt and considerable money saved too.
Having reduced the design to simple elements like this also makes them
easier to machine. I always start by sizing blanks to accurate rectangles
big enough for all outline features including fender mounting bosses and
the pinch-pads, etc, plus a smidgeon. For fixturing ease all features are
machined before outline contouring. Pinch-bolts are oriented fore-aft; this
allows the blanks to be set on edge for drilling and spotfacing, much
easier than on end or at an angle. The blanks are not necessarily the same
width as tops and bottoms contain different features, but it's handy to
have at least one common long edge. If this is a first on the particular
units being made, the blanks are each first scribed to the complete design
including holes (helps avoid big errors) using conventional dye and
drafting tool methods. Then they're pinned together on steel dowels so they
can be machined later with the same explicit parallelism if needed; the
only care needed here is to pick dowel locations not shadowed by fastener
holes and not near edges. The blanks are also shimmed apart a decent
fraction of a mm with vellum or other hard paper, to enable conveniently
breaking off different operations in each piece.
I mount the top blank in vise with end stop and fix the other parts to it
with extra work-holding clamps. The machining mostly consists of stepping
through a series of drills and milling cutters in various locations, some
to final size for fasteners, etc, some ending a bit smaller for later
precision boring to as close to absolute tube/stem sizes as possible or
accounting for stem pressing if used. Here, a CNC pays off because it can
repeat the locations rapidly and precisely and it can also stop accurately
at each depth for each tool ... you just touch off successive tools on top
of the work during setup by jogging your Z axis, starting with the longest
and working down to the center drill, and the computer stores the offsets
for later use. Then in drilling mode you give it the right tool numbers for
each op and it homes, changes tool, and returns to the workplane. At that
point the depth and chip clearing withdrawal (peck) is set and off it goes,
knacking in a new hole with every new input location. Some tools like
center drills are used all over (with depths set to leave a chamfer on
finished holes where possible) and some in succession through the same
places, for enlarging previous drillings. For largest holes one would often
circ-interp an end mill to a rough dia just under size and then finish
bore. Beside the holes expected for the working parts, extras are made
tangent to concave fillets in the outline, which leaves behind for later
outline cutting only convex and straight lines. Paying attention here to
proportions of external and internal outline radii can make for
surprisingly swoopy-looking finished pieces, especially with special
features like thinned-out fender mounts and central surface reliefs
programmed using ball-end or other shaped cutters.
Since stems are usually bigger at bottom and have a shoulder or snap-ring
needing a counterbore, one always works with the bottom clamp upwards. On
some assignments a fork brace is included, this being blanked as above and
pinned/stacked in with the clamps in the same setup. It has of course only
two holes (to mount on the dust-boot diameters) but needs the same
precision locations for them. Braces will also usually be relieved on their
middle bottoms for tire clearance and on outer tops for weight, so the
stock is a lot thicker; to avoid precision boring the whole thickness, one
would first do the relief profiling and mount on the remaining flats for
boring. This makes them upside-down relative to the clamps, but this is not
important since the hole spacing is still preserved. As is obvious, not all
holes go through all parts, so the brace and/or bottom clamp may be removed
from the top along the way, reducing tool overhang and giving access for
remaining ops, and the same tools can be given different numbers with
different offsets embedded for use on different starting levels. The parts
can also be inverted in the vise for reverse-side features. Most
conveniently my program saves all that in case anyone anyone needs the same
clamps next week, and if I remember to comment the file thoroughly enough
on work-orientation etc to stay in step with the machine again, that needs
no previous layout scribing ... and since the program moves are already
proofed it's a lot less nerve-wracking.
Since tapping is a drag I try to make as many holes clean through as
possible and then employ longer bolts with nuts. This works fine on
pinches, bar mounts and stops but it's unsightly for fender mountings so
these would usually be tapped from below. To make the stem pinch easy to do
one also has to drill it blind and tap, and saw the eye open on a slant. I
did have a pair of clamps once for XR200 where the owner was an
appearance-weasel who wanted i-floggin'-dentical measure to originals, and
I wound up tapping 18 different places!
Now it's time to do the remaining outline, which I almost invariably
bandsaw then (lately) dress on an orbiting drum sander. Why kill oneself
with huge CNC programs, to obtain needless all-over precision? It's also
faster to saw than mill from solid; customers love to save that money and I
love not having to make special fixtures for 3D contour work-holding. Even
only lightly dressed, this leaves a stunning visual effect against the
juxtaposed machined surfaces. Once the outline is finished it's time to saw
the pinch eyes open amd perhaps put the individual clamps on a mandrel in
the lathe to turn reliefs needed by clamp-mounted bngs or steering head
clearance, or if the upper clamp is slanted, to profile upper and lower
surfaces; if that's the case one would use thicker stock for the upper, set
outer pinch bolts closer to bottom edge and stem pinch closer to the top
instead of centering them on the thickness. One has use the stem pinch eyes
to hold the clamp on the mandrel, which for absolute precision is chucked
oversize and turned in place. I always hone the major holes, in fact this
being a grand way to make final fits to stems. It also increases gripping
power.
What's a pair of these worth w/o a good stem? Very little, and most stock
stems are't very good. Often top races are loose for asm ease or they're
even partly bearing on the adjuster threads. This prevents one from getting
the best benefits of the clamps, so when I make stems they always require a
bit of driving to get the top race on, unless of course it's already in the
clamp. These would usually be done in 4130 thick tubing turned between
centers and occasionally deep-drilled for proper wall thicknesses. I
disagree with the practice of placing an adjuster nut above and another
below the top clamp, so I use a pair above both threaded the same; this
reduces stem overhang and increases stiffness. You can also make the stem
dia in bng and top clamp the same, just as at the bottom, for easier
machining. Occasionally to avoid threading at all, I tap the inside
instead. In this case a fine-threaded stud can be installed permanently and
the adjuster nuts used on it with a thick, wide washer between them and the
upper clamp.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:05:12 +0100
From: aburnett@esoc.esa.de
Subject: MC-Chassis Introduction and questions (Egli style frames)
Hi All,
I've often read the digests of this list being interested in general
chassis modification/improvement. I'm a Brit currently working (software)
in Germany and have been running katana 1100s for the past 8 or so years
(obsession can be a scary thing).
So, from intro to question - I feel my current bike's reached the end of
realistic development (228KGs wet, 1127 gsxr motor and well behaved with
it) and am thinking of building a new bike using an Egli style frame
(large diameter tube backbone). Whilst these look good on paper
(weights/geometry) I'd like to hear peoples opinions/experience with these
kinds of bikes before embarking down that frustrating/rewarding/painfull
path. Just to clarify, the frame would be a purchased kit as opposed to my
own fabrication.
Regards,
Andy
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:26:36 -0700
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: MC-Chassis Analysis
Les wrote:
<< I've got a material report on some "steel" and wonder if
anyone wants to
hazard a guess as to what this is:
Cu: 0.079
C : 0.455
Si: 0.207
Mn: 0.884
P : 0.015
S : <0.009
Ni: <0.030
Cr: 0.144
Mo: <0.002
V : 0.018
- - --
Best regards, Les >>
That's quite a long list, but according to the AISI steel
compsition table in my handbook, your levels of Cu,Ni,Cr,Mo are
low enough that they can be considered incidental and don't need
to be considered. The phosphorous and sulfer levels also look
like trace levels and they are just trying to tell you there
isn't much there.
So that leaves you with:
C : 0.455
Si: 0.207
Mn: 0.884
V : 0.018
The Vanadium level is low enough that it might not be
significant, but??
I can't find any exact matches in my limited supply of tables.
The closest match I find is AISI 1345
C: 0.43-0.48
Mn: 1.60-1.90
Si: 0.20-0.35
Which as you can see is higher in Mn and doesn't have any
Vanadium.
My SAE reference doesn't have any matches either.
Regards,
Dick
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #797
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, October 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 798
1. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Analysis
2. briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
3. jpanstr@ravenet.com (John Anstreicher) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
4. "Thacker, Heath HW" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Analysis
5. Les Sharp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
6. jpanstr@ravenet.com (John Anstreicher) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
7. "Glenn Thomson" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
8. Les Sharp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
9. "Thacker, Heath HW" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Analysis
10. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
11. Hnry@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Molasses rust removal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:33:37 -0500
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Analysis
Looks like EMT/conduit to me. A little of a lot of "things", not a lot
of anything.
Mark
Les Said:
> Hi,
>
> I've got a material report on some "steel" and wonder if anyone wants
> to
> hazard a guess as to what this is:
>
> Cu: 0.079
> C : 0.455
> Si: 0.207
> Mn: 0.884
> P : 0.015
> S : <0.009
> Ni: <0.030
> Cr: 0.144
> Mo: <0.002
> V : 0.018
> --
> Best regards, Les
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:46:56 -0700
From: briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
>Hi,
>
>I've got a material report on some "steel" and wonder if anyone wants to
>hazard a guess as to what this is:
>
>Cu: 0.079
>C : 0.455
>Si: 0.207
>Mn: 0.884
>P : 0.015
>S : <0.009
>Ni: <0.030
>Cr: 0.144
>Mo: <0.002
>V : 0.018
>--
This is pretty strange pipe. No "Fe", so it's not ferrous, no "Al", so
it's not aluminum.. I'll bet theres more to this report somewhere. Is
this an EDA report from an electron microscope?
Brian
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:10:28 -0400
From: jpanstr@ravenet.com (John Anstreicher)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
Hi Les:
I could not resist a challenge like this. I looked in
my copy of the Machinery's Handbook. It does not
seem to be an alloy steel because there is virtually
no molybdenum or nickel and only a little chromium.
My guess is ordinary carbon steel 1042, 1043, 1045
or 1046.
See ya. JPA
- ----------
> From: Les Sharp
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis Analysis
> Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 4:33 AM
>
> Hi,
>
> I've got a material report on some "steel" and wonder if anyone wants to
> hazard a guess as to what this is:
>
> Cu: 0.079
> C : 0.455
> Si: 0.207
> Mn: 0.884
> P : 0.015
> S : <0.009
> Ni: <0.030
> Cr: 0.144
> Mo: <0.002
> V : 0.018
> --
> Best regards, Les
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:49:18 +1000
From: "Thacker, Heath HW"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Analysis
I think Les is right, the anaylsis matches S1042, S1045, K1045, SAE 1045,
XK1048 (and a few others). (Caster grade FK47). I'm no metelurgist, but it
does help having access to an online spec checker ! :-)
Heath.
> From: jpanstr@ravenet.com[SMTP:jpanstr@ravenet.com]
> Hi Les:
>
> I could not resist a challenge like this. I looked in
> my copy of the Machinery's Handbook. It does not
> seem to be an alloy steel because there is virtually
> no molybdenum or nickel and only a little chromium.
> My guess is ordinary carbon steel 1042, 1043, 1045
> or 1046.
>
> See ya. JPA
>
> ----------
> > From: Les Sharp
> > To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> > Subject: MC-Chassis Analysis
> > Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 4:33 AM
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've got a material report on some "steel" and wonder if anyone wants to
> > hazard a guess as to what this is:
> >
> > Cu: 0.079
> > C : 0.455
> > Si: 0.207
> > Mn: 0.884
> > P : 0.015
> > S : <0.009
> > Ni: <0.030
> > Cr: 0.144
> > Mo: <0.002
> > V : 0.018
> > --
> > Best regards, Les
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:02:24 +0800
From: Les Sharp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
Thanks to all who replied on this one.
I have a sample of this stuff at 46 Rockwell and another under analysis
which tests at over 200 (and is as brittle as your average dinner
plate). I'm still waiting to find out if they're the same composition.
My feeling was that it's a high carbon mild steel that's been hardened.
The analysis was performed with a Baird DV4 emission spectrometer.
For those curious, the application is the steel plate in a cycling shoe
that the cleats are screwed into.
I'm very interested in this online spec resource mentioned.
- --
Best regards, Les
"Eye pierce heaven, foot stick in mud"
Planet Gearhead: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/conten~1.htm
Orange Wings: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/wings
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:49:47 -0400
From: jpanstr@ravenet.com (John Anstreicher)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
Les:
No online spec. Just me and a book.
I think Heath meant that as a joke.
John
- ----------
> From: Les Sharp
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
> Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:02 PM
>
> Thanks to all who replied on this one.
>
> I have a sample of this stuff at 46 Rockwell and another under analysis
> which tests at over 200 (and is as brittle as your average dinner
> plate). I'm still waiting to find out if they're the same composition.
> My feeling was that it's a high carbon mild steel that's been hardened.
> The analysis was performed with a Baird DV4 emission spectrometer.
>
> For those curious, the application is the steel plate in a cycling shoe
> that the cleats are screwed into.
>
> I'm very interested in this online spec resource mentioned.
> --
> Best regards, Les
>
> "Eye pierce heaven, foot stick in mud"
> Planet Gearhead: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/conten~1.htm
> Orange Wings: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/wings
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:20:56 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
On 22 Oct 98, Les Sharp wrote:
>
> I've got a material report on some "steel" and wonder if anyone wants to
> hazard a guess as to what this is:
>
> Cu: 0.079
> C : 0.455
> Si: 0.207
> Mn: 0.884
> P : 0.015
> S : <0.009
> Ni: <0.030
> Cr: 0.144
> Mo: <0.002
> V : 0.018
Well, if it's steel, then the balance will be Fe. A materials guy
at work came up with AISI 5046 as a possibility, with 5046H or 50B46H
more likely since these have reduced Cr (more in your range).
If it's a casting, it might beA216 or A732.
Any details forthcoming?
Cheers,
Glenn
gthomson(at)bserv.com
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:23:56 +0800
From: Les Sharp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
Glenn Thomson wrote:
Glenn,
It's strip stock.
>
> If it's a casting, it might beA216 or A732.
>
> Any details forthcoming?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Glenn
- --
Best regards, Les
"Eye pierce heaven, foot stick in mud"
Planet Gearhead: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/conten~1.htm
Orange Wings: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/wings
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:26:06 +1000
From: "Thacker, Heath HW"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Analysis
No not a joke. Its not online as in on the net, but it is on our mainframe
computer. The screen made is OSC (online spec check). I work for a big steel
producer, so it doesn't match all grades, just the ones we produce I think.
(but we do produce a lot of different grades). I can just type in the
chemistry, and it lists all the grades it matches.
Heath.
> From: jpanstr@ravenet.com[SMTP:jpanstr@ravenet.com]
>
> Les:
>
> No online spec. Just me and a book.
> I think Heath meant that as a joke.
>
> John
>
> ----------
> > From: Les Sharp
> > To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> > Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
> > Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:02 PM
> >
> > Thanks to all who replied on this one.
> >
> > I have a sample of this stuff at 46 Rockwell and another under analysis
> > which tests at over 200 (and is as brittle as your average dinner
> > plate). I'm still waiting to find out if they're the same composition.
> > My feeling was that it's a high carbon mild steel that's been hardened.
> > The analysis was performed with a Baird DV4 emission spectrometer.
> >
> > For those curious, the application is the steel plate in a cycling shoe
> > that the cleats are screwed into.
> >
> > I'm very interested in this online spec resource mentioned.
> > --
> > Best regards, Les
> >
> > "Eye pierce heaven, foot stick in mud"
> > Planet Gearhead: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/conten~1.htm
> > Orange Wings: http://www.inside.com.tw/user/les/wings
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 07:49:11
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Analysis
At 10:23 AM 10/23/98 +0800, you wrote:
>Glenn Thomson wrote:
>Glenn,
>
>It's strip stock.
It should have been a giveaway in the beginning and I'm embarassed that I
missed it: everything is too low for alloy steels ... and .45% carbon puts
it right into the range of ordinary hi-carbon steels. About that value is
used in cheaper tool steels and stuff made for abrasive wear, such as
scraper blades on snow-plows, shovel, hoe, and shear blades, etc. That
makes it ideal for flat-track sliders. The difference in hardness between
samples is merely inconsistant heat treating. Enjoy.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:14:15 EDT
From: Hnry@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Molasses rust removal
Hello,
The molasses desired is "blackstrap" molasses. I found it in farm feed dealers
for sale... in 55 gallon drums. Then, bought some in a health food store, at
just under $3 US per pint.
> I've been soaking a 30 year old Alfa Romeo brake part in molassis for a week
> now it's wet and smells good, but as rusty as ever.
This is probably not blackstrap molasses. It's stinky stuff.
Scott Jameson
Greenville, South Carolina
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #798
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Saturday, October 24 1998 Volume 01 : Number 799
1. Bill Heckel Subj: MC-Chassis BMW R100 Mystic for sale in Dallas
2. Lauren Subj: Re: MC-Chassis BMW R100 Mystic for sale in Dallas
3. Bill Heckel Subj: MC-Chassis Re: BMW R100 Mystic for sale in Dallas ( PICTURES )
4. SCOTTA336@aol.com Subj: MC-Chassis Flat-track sliders
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:38:56 -0400
From: Bill Heckel
Subject: MC-Chassis BMW R100 Mystic for sale in Dallas
My brother in Dallas is selling my old BMW twin and asked if I would post this
to see if anybody wants it before he trades it in on a car.
The bike is a 1994 R100 Mystic in mystic red, sharp looking bike, I will post
pix on my website if anybody wants them.
This is one of the best looking bikes BMW ever made. Lots of fun to ride, very
reliable, gets lots of attention everywhere.
Bike is stock, has dual brembo disks in front, lots of chrome, round headlight,
no fairing, great shape, ~13,000 miles, very young for a BMW.
Airhead motor, classis round valve cover style, last of that style, limited
edition.
A steal at $5500.00
Bob's email address is:
RHeckel@Spectralink.com
My email is at the top of the message.
I want a bike person to get this bike instead of a car dealership but he needs
to move the bike quick so act fast,
Thanks,
Bill
P.S. Thanks for reading this.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 12:56:49 -0700
From: Lauren
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis BMW R100 Mystic for sale in Dallas
At 12:38 PM 10/23/98 , you wrote:
>My brother in Dallas is selling my old BMW twin and asked if I would post
this
>to see if anybody wants it before he trades it in on a car.
Bill,
You should post this to the BMW Airhead list - you'll get a lot more
interest. I can do that for you if you want me to.
I am sorely tempted since this is a good deal for a Mystic with such low
miles but I have too many projects as it is right now.
FWIW,
LCB
'91 BMW R100GS - Geist der Freiheit
'94 Suzuki DR350ES
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:09:31 -0400
From: Bill Heckel
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: BMW R100 Mystic for sale in Dallas ( PICTURES )
Bike pics are at:
http://www.vm3.com/bill/mystic.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:40:13 EDT
From: SCOTTA336@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Flat-track sliders
Mr. Hoyt-
Just had my first experience with a steel shoe a couple of days ago. Spent a
lovely evening flat-tracking on an XR100 with a bunch of AMA Pros. I could
barely lift my leg to operate the truck's clutch on my way home, but that's
another story.
I was able to borrow a Ken Maeley steel shoe. While there, I saw another KM
shoe that had been worn clean through. It looks as though he uses a serious
layer of hard facing on whatever substrate steel. Once the hardface is
eroded, the base steel may as well be wet cardboard.
Do you suggest that a proper choice of steel would work as well as hardfacing?
That'd be cool. All the "made it myself at home" shoes I've ever heard about
throw up great sparks on the decomposed granite and last about three sessions.
Any tricks to hardfacing, or suggestions about other surface treatment that
might suffice?
<< and .45% carbon puts
it right into the range of ordinary hi-carbon steels. About that value is
used in cheaper tool steels and stuff made for abrasive wear, such as
scraper blades on snow-plows, shovel, hoe, and shear blades, etc. That
makes it ideal for flat-track sliders. >>
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #799
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Monday, October 26 1998 Volume 01 : Number 800
1. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Flat-track sliders
2. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Brake lever/linkage
3. Julian Bond Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Flat-track sliders
4. "Glenn Thomson" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis 'Did You Ever', was Flat-track sliders
5. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis FAZER
6. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Flat-track sliders
7. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Flat-track sliders
8. Mark Mason Subj: Re: MC-Chassis FAZER
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:54:05
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Flat-track sliders
At 06:40 PM 10/24/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Mr. Hoyt-
Hi Scott, nice to hear from you.
>Do you suggest that a proper choice of steel would work as well as
hardfacing?
It's extremely likely coz hardface rod comes in most alloys familiar to
tool and die folks; it's used often to repair dies for forging and
especially in working abrasive materials where the dies get scubbed; brake
shoe press dies would be good examples. They most often use similar rod to
the original dies, to preserve their design characteristics.
It seems to me that the reason the trackers use it is simply to keep
repairing the original shoes. It's simpler to weld on another layer and
belt-sand it a bit than fab the whole shoe. No reason in itself why the
shoe couldn't be as made as hard, but it will still wear no matter what.
>Any tricks to hardfacing, or suggestions about other surface treatment that
>might suffice?
You need the usual arc-welding skills but the rod is easily available and
welds w/o no especial concerns beyond what's on the box. It's not like
welding cast iron, for example, where you have to peen every bead.
Am trying to think of tool steels which would be better than hi-carbon;
probably the best of those would be Stellite, used for it's excellent wear
resistance and red-hardness, very important in tooling for lots of modern
steel alloys. I don't know its availability in sheet though. You would also
have to be careful in HT or you'd get warping during or in quenching, often
tricky on thin bits.
No reason to re-invent wheel though. Probably by now tracker shoes are
well-worked out. If possible check and get advice from the makers and other
users on that. You may find lots of hidden sophistication in that. It
wouldn't surprise me though to find out old shovels were preferred stock
... You guys remember Ed Hertfelder? He wrote a dirt bike column in CYCLE
and in one he mentions making skid plates for enduro Brit bikes from coal
scuttles; said they shot the mounting holes in them with a .30-06 because
they were too hard to drill, and that they were glorious to see under those
old bikes when in the rough, for the sheets of sparks rolling off of them.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
-----------------------------
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Brake lever/linkage
I was looking through an ATV aftermarket parts catalog today and saw a
front brake lever assy that was set up for two brake cables. This would be
ideal if all the ferrules bits were the correct dimesions.
Ray
- ----------
> From: David Kath
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis Brake lever/linkage
> Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 3:30 PM
>
> Gents... I would greatly appreciate information on "The best", way to
> buy or fab a front brake lever on the bars for a Yam 250mm TZ 4 leading
> shoe brake for our Seeley BSA GS AHRMA project which is underway. We
> have no prior experience with a brake this complex. I suppose a balance
> linkage will be necessary to eliminate the need for extremely accurate
> cable length adjustments. What did Yam use originally? I believe we are
> capable of building what will be required. Only want to have to do it
> once tho, and of course would like to avoid "reinventing the wheel".
>
> Also we have 2 different models of Ceriani "RR" front fork assys
> available for use on this bike. They are both app 28" from axle center
> to top of tube, and both in very good condition it would appear. They
> are complete with factory clamp sets. The set that came with the bike
> when purchased is the more common model I have seen on many dirt
> trackers. It has the fore and aft type mounting tabs for a front fender
> mount on the lower sliders, adjusters on the top tube caps, and approx 2
> 3/8" offset in the clamps. The other set, very new looking, was found
> abandoned in a trash heap in the desert, on a garbaged short tracker
> frame. (heh-heh, some times a guy gets lucky if you're always looking..)
> They're identifieable by the factory "turned down", lower sliders with
> the fender backet a machined boss facing inward. The offset in the
> clamps is approx 2 7/8".
>
> My questions: Which set of forks is the best? We understand the
> mix/match potential using the different clamps. Sheeze, I forsee a mind
> bending setup problem due to the opitions available! Any and all info on
> these forks would be greatly appreciated. Contacts? Other builders? Your
> experiences?
> TIA, dave - NV
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 08:07:18 +0000
From: Julian Bond
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Flat-track sliders
In article <3.0.2.16.19981024185405.2567cd58@i-plus.net>, batwings@i-
plus.net writes
>... You guys remember Ed Hertfelder? He wrote a dirt bike column in CYCLE
>and in one he mentions making skid plates for enduro Brit bikes from coal
>scuttles; said they shot the mounting holes in them with a .30-06 because
>they were too hard to drill,
While eating a 6 hour old fried egg sandwich and fighting off the 1"
long chiggers in some south eastern swamp...
Certainly do remember him, I wonder where he is now. I used to love
those columns.
- -- ______________________________ )+( _____________________________ --
Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
CN250/Helix/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
8600 Bike Suppliers, Contacts & Addresses http://www.bikeweb.com
> For Sun Sensitive Skin <
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:20:39 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis 'Did You Ever', was Flat-track sliders
On 25 Oct 98, Julian Bond wrote:
> In article <3.0.2.16.19981024185405.2567cd58@i-plus.net>, batwings@i-
> plus.net writes
> >... You guys remember Ed Hertfelder? He wrote a dirt bike column in CYCLE
> >and in one he mentions making skid plates for enduro Brit bikes from coal
> >scuttles; said they shot the mounting holes in them with a .30-06 because
> >they were too hard to drill,
>
> While eating a 6 hour old fried egg sandwich and fighting off the 1"
> long chiggers in some south eastern swamp...
>
> Certainly do remember him, I wonder where he is now. I used to love
> those columns.
I was just thinking of him yesterday - I was in the car at 5 am,
eating a fried egg sandwich made the night before... He's writing for
Motorcycle Online's muddy sibling. I don't have the URL, but it's
linked to MO's main page.
Did he ever publish his columns? The 'Did You Ever' series used to
reduced me to a snickering lump for hours.
Cheers,
Glenn
gthomson(at)bserv.com
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 01:18:12 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis FAZER
Bit off topic - but while the cat's away.........
Could chassis groupers tell me if the Yamaha 600 'Faser' has been on
sale in the US for a while ( yet ? ). It is a naked bike with a small
faring and a more upright motor than the YZF / FZR 600. It's model
designation is FZS 600.
Sometimes we get models ahead of the US ( to test the market ) and
sometimes a year or so behind for popular models ( as in the YZ 400 ).
My interest in it is the head - I have already established that it fits the
stud pattern of my 750-V8 - that makes 5 different model Yamaha
heads that fit now ( bless them ).
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 07:55:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Flat-track sliders
- -> Certainly do remember him, I wonder where he is now. I used to love
- -> those columns.
I think the first one was "The Agony of Defeet", back in the mid'70s.
Ed went over to Dirt Bike a few years before Cycle folded. I wrote him
a couple of years ago asking if he had copies of his old columns.
Turned out he did, collected as books. I misplaced the letter, but if
it turns up during fall cleaning I'll post his address. Wait, the
address was the one that used to be at the end of his column, if you
have an old issue kicking around.
==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 15:02:19 -0600
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Flat-track sliders
Scott asked "Any tricks to hardfacing, or suggestions about other
surface treatment that might suffice?"
Scott-
Back when I was (trying to be) a racer, I remember my Ken Maely shoe had
oxy-acetylene hard-facing rod applied to it. The relatively smooth
surface (looked like a big brass puddle, almost) made that very obvious.
If you check with the specialty rod folks (like Eutectic) at your local
welding supply, you will find hard-surfacing rods designed to be applied
by torch.
Another way is the spray-on hard-surfacing using the Victor surfacing
torch. Very easy to get a very smooth surface with this. Check at a
welding supply house that sells Victor for info.
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:17:34 -0500
From: Mark Mason
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FAZER
From: "Mike Dean"
To:
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis FAZER
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:12:58 -0500
>Could chassis groupers tell me if the Yamaha 600 'Faser' has been on
>sale in the US for a while ( yet ? ).
>Ian Drysdale
Ian,
I was pretty sure that we do not have the 600 Faser here, but called my
friend who is a mechanic at the local Yamaha dealer to be sure.
Nope, we don't have them here...
Mike Dean
mike.dean@poseidon.dictaphone.com
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #800
******************************
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