Motorcycle Chassis Design Digest #761-770
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, September 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 761
1. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis More V8s
2. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis Long dampers
3. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
4. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
5. Julian Bond Subj: Re: MC-Chassis More HCS
6. Julian Bond Subj: Re: MC-Chassis More V8s
7. cdracing@cyberone.com.au (CRAIG DIXON) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis More V8s
8. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis More V8s
9. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:19:23 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis More V8s
I got the 9 Sept 98 MCN today, and it had a short article showing a
"Monsterish with twin rear dampers" 1000cc Drysdale V8.
The article says the "Bruiser" will have an 8->2 exhaust, while the
Cruiser will have 8->8.
Bikes are expected to cost around UKP8500. Let's hope so!
But Ian, won't you have to convert the Cruiser to pushrod to be able
to sell it to the cruising crowd?
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American distributor of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
Host of 6 m/c email lists (details on the web site)
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:37:30 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis Long dampers
Just in case someone needs something like this for a project, I
noticed an ad for Penske dampers in a race car trade magazine that
says they can supply dampers in 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9" lengths.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:06:07 -0700
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
Michael Moore wrote:
> Just in case someone needs something like this for a project, I
> noticed an ad for Penske dampers in a race car trade magazine that
> says they can supply dampers in 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9" lengths.
^
Shouldn't that be "strokes" rather than "lengths" ??
9 in. length, eye-to-eye, would be a rather short unit.
9 in. stroke _would_ be quite long - you could build
motocross-like travel with only a small leverage ratio
between wheel and shock motion!
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:26:57 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
> Shouldn't that be "strokes" rather than "lengths" ??
>
> 9 in. length, eye-to-eye, would be a rather short unit.
> 9 in. stroke _would_ be quite long - you could build
> motocross-like travel with only a small leverage ratio
> between wheel and shock motion!
>
Hello Dave.
That is no doubt the case, but Penske actually used length in their
ad and I just quickly copied the stuff from their ad.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 07:57:56 +0100
From: Julian Bond
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis More HCS
In article <199809180019.RAA10781@mail3.sirius.com>, Michael Moore
writes
>The new MCN also had a two-page spread on the Tryphonos HCS bike.
>They say it outhandles every current road bike in production.
>
>It looks to be a pretty standard Tesi-ish HCS and the steering gear
>is hidden by the fairing so I can't see what has been done there.
>I'm at a loss to say why it should be so much better than the Tesi,
>ASP, or GTS (which they say it is).
It appears to have a kingpin in the centre of the hub like the Tesi and
Difazio. This rotates either by a sleeve on the axle or by allowing the
axle to rotate. There's a drag link on the right side to control rake.
The steering mechanism is a vertical steering column running from the
handlebars to a few inches above the swing arm and then a drag link
forwards to a take off point on the hub and brake mount on the right
side. They've had to tilt the steering column back so the handlebars
will move in a slightly odd plane. At a guess, there are 4 roller
bearings and 2 spherical bearings in the steering path. The design only
allows one brake disk so they've fitted a pair of 6 pot pfm brakes.
Geometry is 16-21 rake, 85-110mm trail and 55" wheelbase. Weight is
352lb in race trim. I think they're running near the bottom end of this,
and this suggests a centrally mounted kingpin with no offset. The rest
of the bike is GSXR750 with an RF900 engine.
The article mentions that everything is held in tight to avoid ground
clearance problems but it looks like this is at the expense of steering
lock.
Front suspension is a single short Penske shock radically laid down and
mounted on the right side so there will be significant twisting forces
in the swing arm.
Quite an interesting design, and race proven with an 11th in the 95
senior TT.
- --
Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
CN250/Helix/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
>8600 Bike Suppliers, Contacts & Addresses http://www.bikeweb.com
> Membership Is free <
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 07:36:49 +0100
From: Julian Bond
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis More V8s
In article <199809180019.RAA10791@mail3.sirius.com>, Michael Moore
writes
>I got the 9 Sept 98 MCN today, and it had a short article showing a
>"Monsterish with twin rear dampers" 1000cc Drysdale V8.
>
>But Ian, won't you have to convert the Cruiser to pushrod to be able
>to sell it to the cruising crowd?
I look forward to the commercial breaks on Speedvision and Fox.
"Drysdale, makers of the world's most powerful custom motorcycle"
with apologies to non-USA residents and Honda :)
- --
Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
CN250/Helix/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
>8600 Bike Suppliers, Contacts & Addresses http://www.bikeweb.com
> Membership Is free <
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:45:34 +1000
From: cdracing@cyberone.com.au (CRAIG DIXON)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis More V8s
you can contact ian via mail list at mcmod@research.canon.com.au or send to
me dirrect at cdracing@cyberone.com.au if you would like more details about
his beast.
>I got the 9 Sept 98 MCN today, and it had a short article showing a
>"Monsterish with twin rear dampers" 1000cc Drysdale V8.
>
>The article says the "Bruiser" will have an 8->2 exhaust, while the
>Cruiser will have 8->8.
>
>Bikes are expected to cost around UKP8500. Let's hope so!
>
>But Ian, won't you have to convert the Cruiser to pushrod to be able
>to sell it to the cruising crowd?
>
>Cheers,
>
CRAIG DIXON
CRAIG DIXON RACING
02 6258 3351
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:48:46 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis More V8s
> you can contact ian via mail list at mcmod@research.canon.com.au or send to
> me dirrect at cdracing@cyberone.com.au if you would like more details about
> his beast.
Hello Craig,
Ian is also on the chassis list, so we can get him right here too.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:44:40 -0400
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
I think you mean that Penske can supply shocks with 5, 6,7,8,9 inches of
travel.
Ray
- ----------
> From: Michael Moore
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis Long dampers
> Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 11:37 PM
>
> Just in case someone needs something like this for a project, I
> noticed an ad for Penske dampers in a race car trade magazine that
> says they can supply dampers in 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9" lengths.
>
> Cheers,
> Michael
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #761
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Sunday, September 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 762
1. "Frank Camillieri" Subj: MC-Chassis metal working
2. Gene Gaddy Subj: MC-Chassis Early Triumph twins and triples
3. Ian Drysdale Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #761
4. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: EFI
5. Bob & Jean Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
6. Bob & Jean Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
7. Julian Bond Subj: MC-Chassis Ducati FFE, well no actually
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:45:15 -0400
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Subject: MC-Chassis metal working
Does anyone know of a site in the Washington - Oregon area that sells tools
and books on sheet metal work? I came across it once but can't remember
where. The guy is supposed to be a super craftsman.
BTW I met someone at the Laconia vintage race that had a Ducati Diana tank
reproduced in aluminum by a guy in Arizona. It was a beautiful exact copy. If I
remember correctly it cost about $650.00.
Frank Camillieri
Chester, NH
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 00:09:38 -0500
From: Gene Gaddy
Subject: MC-Chassis Early Triumph twins and triples
I am building a chassis for vintage flat track racing using a T150
Trident motor.
I have built many vintage flat track style frames in the past using the
500 and 650 twin motors, but never one for a Trident. I have a question
about the placement of the motor mounts on the Trident in relation to
the 650.
My jig set up for the 650 engine has permanent welded fixtures to
locate the lower (main) motor mount, front motor mount, and the swing
arm brackets.
To the best of my measuring abilities, (on a together T150) it looks
like the lower mount is in the same location, in relation to the rear
mounts/swing arm bracket hole, as a 650 twin. It seems to be only the
lug is wider. If that is true, I can make spacers for my 650 jig and get
the 2 critical mounting locations correct.
I realize that the case is wider under the crank and the frame will
have to be more parallel as it goes forward under the motor. I also
realize that the front motormount is higher and slightly farther
forward.
I am planing to build the complete chassis from the steering head and
upper mount around the engine with the rear section and the lower
completed to the lower mounts ( widened to the Trident width).
I will then have a complete chassis but without down tubes. I can then
remove the semi complete frame from the jig and slip in a complete
Trident powerplant. Bolting it in the lower and rear mounts to locate
it, I can then fabricate down tubes and the front mount.
Does this sound like the way to do it? I do not want to cut up my 650
jig just to build a one-off frame.
I am also curious as to the relation of the countershaft sprocket to
the lower lug as compared to the same relation on the twins.
If anyone has first hand knowledge of Triumph engine layout points,
please let me know!
The frame styling, of this bike, will be very similar to the "Champion"
frame of the 70s.
I also build a rigid frame similar to the "Sonicweld" of the 60s. Some
of these have been very sucessful in recent Vintage races.
If anyone has actual blueprints of Triumph engine locating points that
would very helpful!
Thanks ..... Gene Gaddy
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:39:30 +1000
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #761
> The article says the "Bruiser" will have an 8->2 exhaust, while the
> Cruiser will have 8->8.
>
> Bikes are expected to cost around UKP8500. Let's hope so!
I WISH ! I have been inundated by people wanting more info. on the
Cruiser - unfortunately MCN seem to have conjured the price up out
of thin air - neither I nor the journo who supplied the PR to MCN
mentioned a price. For the record - it will be closer to UKP20,000.
>
>
> But Ian, won't you have to convert the Cruiser to pushrod to be able
> to sell it to the cruising crowd?
Now there is an idea.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:46:35 +0200
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: EFI
A few days back someone suggested looking at the DTA web site for EFI stuff,
but didn't know the address. They're at office@dtafast.demon.co.uk so I
guess the web site must be www.dtafast.demon.co.uk
Tony Foale
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/Softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:49:25 -0700
From: Bob & Jean
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
Penske just might mean length, they use belcranks and inboard mounting
so they may be advertising short shocks that will do the job. Cheers Bob
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:49:25 -0700
From: Bob & Jean
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
Penske just might mean length, they use belcranks and inboard mounting
so they may be advertising short shocks that will do the job. Cheers Bob
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:44:24 +0100
From: Julian Bond
Subject: MC-Chassis Ducati FFE, well no actually
Just a quick note about the rumour of Ducati doing an FFE on their next
generation 916 replacement. It seems it may have been a figment of a
journalist's imagination.
Alan Cathcart writing in MCS&L reports Pierre Terblanche "This is
complete fiction, Apart from the fact that nobody here in Bologna thinks
that hub centre steering works properly, the next generation Ducati
Superbike must retain the traditional appearance of a conventional
motorcycle for commercial as well as technical reasons...
BTW. Has anybody found a website with news from the Munich show yet?
- --
Julian Bond mailto:julian_bond@voidstar.com
CN250/Helix/FF info & mailing list http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk
>8600 Bike Suppliers, Contacts & Addresses http://www.bikeweb.com
> Improved Formula <
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #762
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Monday, September 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 763
1. Bob & Jean Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
2. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
3. authier@ibm.net Subj: MC-Chassis Re: photo of the Suzuki SV-650
4. Ed Scharnhorst Subj: MC-Chassis Sheet metal
5. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Does length matter
6. "Frank Camillieri" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
7. Andy Overstreet Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
8. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
9. "Frank Camillieri" Subj: MC-Chassis metal working
10. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Carbs for sale.
11. jdahl@dvicomm.com (John Dahl) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 07:25:22 -0700
From: Bob & Jean
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
Frank, the best sheet meatl book I've seen is Ron Foutnier's "Sheet
Metal Handbook", published by HP Books, 360 N Cienega Boul. Los Angeles,
Ca. 90048. The Duke tank you saw may have been made by Evin Wilcox,
formally of Portland Oregon, I've "heard" he has moved some where in the
southwest. He made a Lyta style tank for my Goldstar and it is a joy to
look at. Oh yes, Rons book has addresses for all the tool sourses.
Cheers Bob
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:26:00 +0100
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
>Frank, the best sheet meatl book I've seen is Ron Foutnier's "Sheet
>Metal Handbook", published by HP Books, 360 N Cienega Boul. Los Angeles,
>Ca. 90048. The Duke tank you saw may have been made by Evin Wilcox,
>formally of Portland Oregon, I've "heard" he has moved some where in the
>southwest. He made a Lyta style tank for my Goldstar and it is a joy to
>look at. Oh yes, Rons book has addresses for all the tool sourses.
>Cheers Bob
I'll second the endorsement of the Fournier book. It covers all the
necessary technologies to make your own gorgeous aluminum gas tanks - and
has recomendations for alloys which form easily. There is also a brief
discussion of gas welding aluminum, which I personally haven't tried, as
I'm an impatient bugger and can't manage to weld sheet steel without
distorting it. Does anyone know a source for a book on patience? :)
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:21:45 -0700
From: authier@ibm.net
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: photo of the Suzuki SV-650
Hi Michael,
http://www.motomag.com/nouveau/munich/suss601.htm
for a photo of the SV-650.
Apparently it has a conventional shock.
Thought you might be intersted.
Marc
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:06:02 -0400
From: Ed Scharnhorst
Subject: MC-Chassis Sheet metal
The tank was probably by Evan Wilcox. Nice stuff. He has a good website at
http://www.escape.ca/~wilcox/index.htm
that showcases some of his work.
Ed
> Frank said:
>
> BTW I met someone at the Laconia vintage race that had a Ducati Diana tank
> reproduced in aluminum by a guy in Arizona. It was a beautiful exact copy. If I
> remember correctly it cost about $650.00.
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:56:23 +0200
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Does length matter
Michael reported:
<<
I noticed an ad for Penske dampers in a race car trade magazine that
says they can supply dampers in 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9" lengths.
>>
Length can be important, but how much you move it counts too.
Tony Foale
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/Softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:00:47 -0400
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
> Does anyone know a source for a book on patience? :)
>
> Al
>
Al,
I've recently found that patience comes with age. When I started racing this
year I had to build and true some wheels, which I hadn't done in over 20 years.
It wasn't something I looked forward to but I found it almost pleasant. I'm going
to be 60 next month so you might a ways to go.
If anyone out there thinks they are too old to get back into roadracing, just get
out and try it. I haven't had this much fun in 25 years.
Frank Camillieri
Chester, NH
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:21:47 -0600 (MDT)
From: Andy Overstreet
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, Frank Camillieri wrote:
> I've recently found that patience comes with age. When I started racing this
> year I had to build and true some wheels, which I hadn't done in over 20 years.
> It wasn't something I looked forward to but I found it almost pleasant. I'm going
> to be 60 next month so you might a ways to go.
> If anyone out there thinks they are too old to get back into roadracing, just get
> out and try it. I haven't had this much fun in 25 years.
Yep, that's gotta be it. My mechanicing and gunsmithing just seem to keep
getting better with the years. Too bad the coordination and eyesight don't
do the same!
Andy Overstreet
Albuquerque, NM USA
"All that glitters has a high refractive index."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:21:18 -0400
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
> If anyone out there thinks they are too old to get back into roadracing,
just get
> out and try it. I haven't had this much fun in 25 years.
>
>
> Frank Camillieri
> Chester, NH
I didn't run my first motorcycle RR until last year , age 43. Get out and
do it. I will race my SOS bitsa at the AHRMA TGPR event in two weeks. Can't
wait. The bike had a great shakedown last Sunday and I am anxious to put it
to the test in competetion.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:57:41 -0400
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Subject: MC-Chassis metal working
I found the metal working site I was looking for. It's Kent White at
tinmantech.com in CA.
They sell tools and books on metal forming and welding.
There are some nice pictures of his work.
Frank Camillieri
Chester, NH
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:15:33 +1000
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Carbs for sale.
I have some bits for sale ( in context of the group I hope ).
These don't have much application in Oz as our 400cc RR
class is pretty stock i.e - std carbs only.
For Sale : 2 sets of FCR flat slide 32mm dia carbs. These
are spaced for FZR 400 but one set has the throttle
rod and other spacers for ZXR 400 as well. Less
than 100 hours use.
Price - US$700 -per set ( of 4 ) including shipping.
BTW - the FZR carb centres were 3 mm out when supplied - they
have been respaced correctly.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:50:09 -0400
From: jdahl@dvicomm.com (John Dahl)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Long dampers
Ray or Emily Brooks wrote:
> I think you mean that Penske can supply shocks with 5, 6,7,8,9
> inches of
> travel.
>
> Ray
>
Penske makes every shock up from an order sheet that specifies
all the aspects of the shock, from spring rate, shim stacks,
travel, mounting types for each end, how long and what angle
fittings go on the hose to the reservoir, and LENGTH! They will
make whatever length you need, and all come with a ride height
adjuster. So it could be length or it could have been travel.
But it doesn't matter, 'cause they can do both. All Penske
shocks are custom. They may already have a recipe for the shock,
but it's still custom, and made up out of tinker toy modules when
the order goes in.
John
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #763
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Monday, September 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 764
1. bsags@isat.com (David Kath) Subj: MC-Chassis Tin working & Racing
2. bsags@isat.com (David Kath) Subj: MC-Chassis Old Racers
3. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Seniority
4. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis street specials
5. "Patrick F. Trumbull" Subj: MC-Chassis sprockets
6. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis street specials
7. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis street specials
8. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis brakes
9. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
10. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis brakes
11. "Thacker, Heath HW" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis brakes
12. "Frank Camillieri" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
13. "Michael Moore" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis brakes
14. David Weinshenker Subj: Re: MC-Chassis brakes
15. Franklyn Berry Subj: MC-Chassis 80mm Pistons
16. "Thacker, Heath HW" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis brakes
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:03:07 -0700
From: bsags@isat.com (David Kath)
Subject: MC-Chassis Tin working & Racing
Re: Frank C's request for tin work info. May I suggest buying Fourier's
videos also. The guy is a true wizard at his craft. Alas, I have not
been able to get past the dreaming stage of doing some serious metal
beating. So many prtojects... So little time...
We need a couple of early Triumph alloy rear conical brake hubs for our
BSA Gold Star/ Seeley Vintage racer project. Better yet, Manx mag hubs.
Anyone have extras? Contacts?
The Steamboat, Colo AHMRA Vintage/BOT/SOS/BEARS races were great. What a
fantastic setting for a race course in amoungst the condos at this ah,
upscale, ski resort town. Anyone else on the List make it? dave - NV
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:22:46 -0700
From: bsags@isat.com (David Kath)
Subject: MC-Chassis Old Racers
Ken Lighthouse, age 56, again made a good show at the Steamboat, Colo
AHMRA races last week. He rode fast in 3 different classes. There are
lots of older gents in Vintage Racing aren't there? Except Ken raises a
few eyebrows in the pits when he takes off his plastic right leg and
replaces the foot with his race foot with the ground off toes. Holy Cow!
dave - NV
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:04:03 +0200
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Seniority
Frank,
>>I'm going to be 60 next month .
Congratulations.
It's great to know that I'm nowhere near the eldest member of this list, I'd
previously thought that I probably was. You've made my day.
Tony Foale
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/Softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:48:39 -0700
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis street specials
Has anyone licensed a "special" for the street in the US? It must be
possible because there are some Harris framed bikes running around. Or
are they trying to convince the local constables that the Magnum 5
really is a slightly modified GSXR 1100?
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
WMMRA 935
FZR 400/600
"It's not my fault" - Han Solo
"It's not my fault" - Lando Calrisian
______________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:48:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Patrick F. Trumbull"
Subject: MC-Chassis sprockets
Can someone give me some sources for offset sprockets (again)?
I can't find where ever it was I stashed them before...
thanks,
patrick
trouble@calweb.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:04:57
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis street specials
At 01:48 PM 9/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Has anyone licensed a "special" for the street in the US? It must be
>possible because there are some Harris framed bikes running around. Or
>are they trying to convince the local constables that the Magnum 5
>really is a slightly modified GSXR 1100?
Yes, I have. It was one of my special frames that I wanted to ride in
enduro, for which you need legalities observed.
In VA, you have to submit paperwork as to purchase of major components such
as motor - a bill of sale as to it being from a salvedged bike (private
owner too) did for me on that; you may need something like this for other
big portions too. Since I built the rest I provided a certificate under
notary as to having bought new materials and fabbed, etc.
After your application and paperwork, they send a police officer to examine
the vehicle for existing VIN, etc. If it passes, they affix a special
registration number directly to the frame, in a permanent manner (pop
rivets!!).
Most likely your DMV can give you details.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
Belfab CNC: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
Best MC Repair- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
Camping/Caving- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
News Flash: Bill Clinton burnt by cigar
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:24:32 -0500
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis street specials
Yousuf asked "Has anyone licensed a "special" for the street in the US?"
That is done all the time in the USA! Many of the HD Big-Twin customs
you see are "specials" that people have assembled from pieces. The
procedure changes depending in the state, but basically it entails
showing all your receipts to your local DMV or Sec. of State office
(depending on the state) and being issued a "Special Construction"
title.
It is not hard, just bureaucratic!
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:53:43 -0700
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis brakes
I am in the process of dismantling my brakes and it occurred to me that
the brake fluid pushes the pads against the rotors, but nothing pushes
them back. Does the retreating fluid provide enough suction to retract
the pads or is there always some contact betwixt the rotors and pads?
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:14:52 +0100
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
>Al,
>I've recently found that patience comes with age. When I started racing this
>year I had to build and true some wheels, which I hadn't done in over 20
>years.
>It wasn't something I looked forward to but I found it almost pleasant.
>I'm going
>to be 60 next month so you might a ways to go.
>If anyone out there thinks they are too old to get back into roadracing,
>just get
>out and try it. I haven't had this much fun in 25 years.
>
>
>Frank Camillieri
>Chester, NH
I've also built and trued wheels, and it's incredibly rewarding to put the
last twist on the spoke nipple and see the dial gauge only deviate by
twenty-thou!
I, too am a roadracer, and must give you both my congratulations and my
respect - I hope to be involved in MCs for life, and hope I have both the
attitude and ability to do as you've done when I reach your age.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:04:56 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis brakes
> I am in the process of dismantling my brakes and it occurred to me that
> the brake fluid pushes the pads against the rotors, but nothing pushes
> them back. Does the retreating fluid provide enough suction to retract
> the pads or is there always some contact betwixt the rotors and pads?
Hello Yousuf,
The square o-ring that seals the pistons to the caliper twist a bit
as the piston goes out, and when the pressure is relieved it pulls
the piston back.
Some calipers do have retraction springs as well, but only in car
stuff I think.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:15:52 +1000
From: "Thacker, Heath HW"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis brakes
> From: Michael Moore[SMTP:mmoore@sirius.com]
>
> The square o-ring that seals the pistons to the caliper twist a bit
> as the piston goes out, and when the pressure is relieved it pulls
> the piston back.
>
I guess it fairly safe to assume that if they are not retracting (as my
YZ started doing last weekend, locking the rear brake semi-on), that
this o-ring seal is gone, and should be replaced ??
The only other thing I could guess, would be the mater cylindar seal,
but on a dirt bike, the caliper seal would be much more likely to go
(from all the mud & dirt) ?? Is this true ??
Thanks,
Heath.
'88 GSXR750J
'95 YZ125G
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:47:50 -0400
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
> I've also built and trued wheels, and it's incredibly rewarding to put the
> last twist on the spoke nipple and see the dial gauge only deviate by
> twenty-thou!
>
Al,
Twenty thou!!! I gave up at .005", of course I've been a machinist / tool & die
maker for 40 years so even .005" seems like a mile to me. Last week I had to
grind some parts flat within .0001" so I expect wheels to be almost that good.
Seriously, I bought a new Akront rim this year and it was terrible. If I had time I
would have sent it back. The weld area was so crooked I could only get it within
about .035". It seems that Akront did a much better job 25 years ago. As I
remember you had a hard time locating the weld back then.
Frank Camillieri
Chester, NH
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:49:54 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis brakes
> I guess it fairly safe to assume that if they are not retracting (as my
> YZ started doing last weekend, locking the rear brake semi-on), that
> this o-ring seal is gone, and should be replaced ??
>
> The only other thing I could guess, would be the mater cylindar seal,
> but on a dirt bike, the caliper seal would be much more likely to go
> (from all the mud & dirt) ?? Is this true ??
Hello Heath,
You may just have accumulated enough crud to the point where the
o-ring can't overcome the crud drag.
If you have a single piston caliper then I'd suspect you've got crud
on the sliding pins, and it isn't sliding much anymore.
A good cleaning is probably all your caliper needs (followed by fresh
fluid and bleeding).
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:11:48 -0700
From: David Weinshenker
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis brakes
Michael Moore wrote:
> > I guess it fairly safe to assume that if they are not retracting (as my
> > YZ started doing last weekend, locking the rear brake semi-on), that
> > this o-ring seal is gone, and should be replaced ??
> Hello Heath,
> You may just have accumulated enough crud to the point where the
> o-ring can't overcome the crud drag.
> If you have a single piston caliper then I'd suspect you've got crud
> on the sliding pins, and it isn't sliding much anymore.
Also be sure the reservoir isn't overfilled. A friend of mine took
a tumble in morning practice at Sears last month on a YZ-based
roadracer-his front brake started dragging from fluid expansion,
increasing pressure, more heat, etc. until it sent him over
the bars while heating the rotor enough that it deformed into
a cone! Examination afterward revealed excessive fluid in the
reservoir...
- -dave w
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:45:57 -0500
From: Franklyn Berry
Subject: MC-Chassis 80mm Pistons
Hoyt writes:
>Need source of pistons 80 mm bore by 20mm pin by 39 mm deck hgt.
>From memory [not near my kit right now] 67-69 Porsche pistons are
80mm [definitely], 20mm pin, but the deck height seems off --
something closer to 30mm on the 911T/E flatops, I think; but this is
only a guess. If interested, I can check one next weekend.
Franklyn Berry Premier Plastics 1225 Pearl St Waukesha, WI 53186
fax: (414)549-3631 vox: (414)549-9532 x101 pag: (888) 851-0506
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:58:32 +1000
From: "Thacker, Heath HW"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis brakes
> From: Michael Moore[SMTP:mmoore@sirius.com]
>
> You may just have accumulated enough crud to the point where the
> o-ring can't overcome the crud drag.
>
> If you have a single piston caliper then I'd suspect you've got crud
> on the sliding pins, and it isn't sliding much anymore.
>
Michael,
Yes, its a single piston. I've already given them a good clean, so I
don't think dirt is the problem. But I think you may have it. The
sliding pins had dents (groves) worn into them, where the pads had been
resting on the pins, I guess these pins need to be replaced ?? There
not huge dents, but I guess they have to slide pretty well.
Thanks for the help,
Heath.
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #764
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Tuesday, September 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 765
1. "Thacker, Heath HW" Subj: RE: MC-Chassis brakes
2. papazit@juno.com (Chris L Johnson) Subj: MC-Chassis Great Design Book!
3. papazit@juno.com (Chris L Johnson) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis brakes
4. "john.mead" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis street specials
5. "john.mead" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis brakes
6. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
7. "john.mead" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
8. "Michael Moore" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Great Design Book!
9. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis brakes
10. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Akront rims.
11. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis 80mm Pistons
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:01:21 +1000
From: "Thacker, Heath HW"
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis brakes
I'll also give this a check to make sure. My GSXR front brake lever
didn't return to it normal postion this morning, when squeezed in, it
didn't flick back out all the way. Any ideas ? I'll check the fuild on
this one too, it may be the problem.
Heath.
> From: David Weinshenker[SMTP:daze39@grin.net]
>
> Also be sure the reservoir isn't overfilled. A friend of mine took
> a tumble in morning practice at Sears last month on a YZ-based
> roadracer-his front brake started dragging from fluid expansion,
> increasing pressure, more heat, etc. until it sent him over
> the bars while heating the rotor enough that it deformed into
> a cone! Examination afterward revealed excessive fluid in the
> reservoir...
>
> -dave w
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:56:17 -0400
From: papazit@juno.com (Chris L Johnson)
Subject: MC-Chassis Great Design Book!
"Motorcycle Chassis Design: the theory and practice" by Tony Foale and
Vic Willoughby
available through Michael Moore, Eurospares at mmoore@sirius.com and
http://www.eurospares.com
There is also: "Tony Foale" and
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/Softtech/motos
Thanks Tony Foale, for sending me your chassis design book. It is
excellent! For the first time in my life, I have the book in my hand
that can explain the subtleties of rake and trail interactions, among
other things! Not only do you provide the theory, but your extensive
hands on experiments with frame geometry, which are thoroughly impressive
and/or downright bizzarre, confirm that you have actually closed the loop
on the theory by feeling the results directly. You went way beyond my
meager experiments with backwards mounted offset forks and rake changes.
I would very much encourage anyone interested in motorcycle history or
chassis design to buy this book. Get it while you can. I waited a
lifetime! This kind and quality of technical information is VERY hard to
find.
Chris (CJ) Johnson, Director of Engineering,
College Park Industries, Inc. http://www.college-park.com
(810) 294-7950 (at CPI), (616) 664-4173 (home office)
papazit@juno.com
Scorpa 250/Gas-Gas 160/Fantic 305/Three 650 Yamahas/BMW R75/6
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:58:37 -0400
From: papazit@juno.com (Chris L Johnson)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis brakes
On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:53:43 -0700 yhakim@m5.sprynet.com writes:
>I am in the process of dismantling my brakes and it occurred to me
>that the brake fluid pushes the pads against the rotors, but nothing
pushes
>them back. Does the retreating fluid provide enough suction to retract
>the pads or is there always some contact betwixt the rotors and pads?
>
>______________________________________________________
>Yousuf
>WMMRA 935
>FZR 400/600
Yousuf:
It's a force on-off with little-to-no movement sort of thing....
There is a small amount of residual pressure on the rotor from mostly
friction left in the system. Slave cylinder pistons don't get sucked
back when you let off the lever, they just stop clamping down hard when
the lever is released. The pads will continue to rub, but without strong
braking. The pads actually move very, very little. They slowly creap
over time as pads wear. The pistons back off very little as well. I'm
sure they do move, but it would likely be very hard to see the movement
it is so small.
Problems occur if the pistons do get stuck and fail to release pressure
on the disk. That can be due to a number of causes, which I will not
entertain here.
At fully retracted position, the master cylinder has a little tiny
orifice that replenishes fluid to the system, so at fully retracted the
downstream hydraulic pressure is very low but not negative. You can see
the orifice broach the downstream line if you remove the master cylinder
cover and watch the bottom of the reservoir when you pump the lever (this
is why you need a bit of slack between the lever actuation point and the
piston). There can be a very slight spurt out the orifice into the
reservoir when the lever is returned to home position as slight residual
pressure is dumped, and most certainly will be a slight spurt when the
master cylinder piston is pushed in and fluid is displaced just prior to
the orifice being burried and close off early in the lever travel by the
master cylinder cup seal.
Hope this confusing mess helps.
Chris (CJ) Johnson, Director of Engineering,
College Park Industries, Inc. http://www.college-park.com
(810) 294-7950 (at CPI), (616) 664-4173 (home office)
papazit@juno.com
Scorpa 250/Gas-Gas 160/Fantic 305/Three 650 Yamahas/BMW R75/6
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: "john.mead"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis street specials
Suzuki's do not have the same serial number on the frame as on the engine
and use the frame number for title purposes. The only way to have the bike
"legal" would be to punch the number from the old frame into the new frame.
John Mead
- ----------
>
> Has anyone licensed a "special" for the street in the US? It must be
> possible because there are some Harris framed bikes running around. Or
> are they trying to convince the local constables that the Magnum 5
> really is a slightly modified GSXR 1100?
> ______________________________________________________
> Yousuf
>
> ______________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:17:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "john.mead"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis brakes
> I guess it fairly safe to assume that if they are not retracting (as my
> YZ started doing last weekend, locking the rear brake semi-on), that
> this o-ring seal is gone, and should be replaced ??
Sounds more like swarf between the piston and cylinder.
John Mead
>
> The only other thing I could guess, would be the mater cylindar seal,
> but on a dirt bike, the caliper seal would be much more likely to go
> (from all the mud & dirt) ?? Is this true ??
>
> Thanks,
> Heath.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:19:54 +0100
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
>> I've also built and trued wheels, and it's incredibly rewarding to put the
>> last twist on the spoke nipple and see the dial gauge only deviate by
>> twenty-thou!
>>
>Al,
>Twenty thou!!! I gave up at .005", of course I've been a machinist / tool
>& die
>maker for 40 years so even .005" seems like a mile to me. Last week I had to
>grind some parts flat within .0001" so I expect wheels to be almost that
>good.
>Seriously, I bought a new Akront rim this year and it was terrible. If I
>had time I
>would have sent it back. The weld area was so crooked I could only get it
>within
>about .035". It seems that Akront did a much better job 25 years ago. As I
>remember you had a hard time locating the weld back then.
My Dad was an engineer, and damn near impossible to impress, but that did
the trick. They were (are, I guess - I still have'm) Sun brand rims, and
had the oversize-stainless spokes. They were strung very tight - I used a
3" crescent wrench for the job.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:22:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "john.mead"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
> Al,
> Twenty thou!!! I gave up at .005", of course I've been a machinist / tool &
> die
> maker for 40 years so even .005" seems like a mile to me. Last week I had to
> grind some parts flat within .0001" so I expect wheels to be almost that good.
>
> Seriously, I bought a new Akront rim this year and it was terrible. If I had
> time I
> would have sent it back. The weld area was so crooked I could only get it
> within
> about .035". It seems that Akront did a much better job 25 years ago. As I
> remember you had a hard time locating the weld back then.
I agree. I still have two 19 x 40 WM2 Akronts from a bunch I bought in
1971. They are better made that the current ones I bought. However the
new ones are polished real nice where the old ones came with a dull finish
that would polish up nice with some Simichrome(sp) and some elbow grease.
John Mead
>
>
> Frank Camillieri
> Chester, NH
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:46:19 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Great Design Book!
> "Motorcycle Chassis Design: the theory and practice" by Tony Foale
> and Vic Willoughby available through Michael Moore, Eurospares at
> mmoore@sirius.com and http://www.eurospares.com
>
> There is also: "Tony Foale" and
> http://www.ctv.es/USERS/Softtech/motos
Hello Chris,
Actually, I just had a few extra copies and was handling some of the
U.S. cheques for Tony when people didn't have or didn't want to use a
credit card.
All stocks from this small reprint are now gone, but Tony is thinking
about doing one more, even smaller reprint, if there is enough
interest (some people responded too late to get a book).
Anyone interested should contact Tony directly so that he can gauge
the demand for a final printing.
However, John Bradley's "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for
constructors, Vol 1" is still readily available, and I'm the North
American distributor for that. John has been working on Vol 2, and
we're hoping to see this next 400 page volume available towards the
middle of next year.
I think anyone who misses out on a copy of Tony and Vic's book
(especially with the inclusion 4 chapters that were left out of the
original by the publishers) is, in the words of the immoral Mr.
Dibbler, "cuttin' their own throat".
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:05:17 +0100
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis brakes
>> I am in the process of dismantling my brakes and it occurred to me that
>> the brake fluid pushes the pads against the rotors, but nothing pushes
>> them back. Does the retreating fluid provide enough suction to retract
>> the pads or is there always some contact betwixt the rotors and pads?
>
>Hello Yousuf,
>
>The square o-ring that seals the pistons to the caliper twist a bit
>as the piston goes out, and when the pressure is relieved it pulls
>the piston back.
>
>Some calipers do have retraction springs as well, but only in car
>stuff I think.
Hydraulics work equally well both ways, and there is a spring in the master
cylinder to push the piston back. However, the caliper pistons may retract
a bit when the lever is released, but the pads aren't affixed to the
pistons, making pad retraction via hydraulics impossible.
The irregularities and/or run-out in the rotor surface push the pads back
as the wheel rotates. I've ridden a bike with heat-distorted rotors, and
one of the effects is that they push the pads very far back into the
caliper, causing very long lever travel.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:48:05 +1000
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Akront rims.
> Twenty thou!!! I gave up at .005", of course I've been a machinist / tool & die
> maker for 40 years so even .005" seems like a mile to me. Last week I had to
> grind some parts flat within .0001" so I expect wheels to be almost that good.
> Seriously, I bought a new Akront rim this year and it was terrible. If I had time I
> would have sent it back. The weld area was so crooked I could only get it within
> about .035". It seems that Akront did a much better job 25 years ago. As I
> remember you had a hard time locating the weld back then.
I've had the same experience - I used Nordisk on my 2WD and the weld
area was very poor. When I knocked up some similar wheels for a
display unit out of some Japanese wheels ( with hollow lips on the rims )
I had trouble finding the weld either by sight or by distortion.
Not sure how they do it when Akront / Nordisk can't.
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:15:50
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis 80mm Pistons
At 09:45 PM 9/21/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>From memory [not near my kit right now] 67-69 Porsche pistons are
>80mm [definitely], 20mm pin, but the deck height seems off --
>something closer to 30mm on the 911T/E flatops, I think; but this is
>only a guess. If interested, I can check one next weekend.
Thanks, Franklin, but I have sourced them from Wiseco, and they have the
right crown profile too.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #765
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Tuesday, September 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 766
1. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis street specials
2. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
3. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: MC-Chassis XS650 SA proj
4. Andy Overstreet Subj: MC-Chassis wheel lacing
5. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com Subj: RE: MC-Chassis XS650 SA proj
6. Alan Lapp Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
7. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
8. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
9. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Rims
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:22:33
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis street specials
At 11:11 AM 9/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Suzuki's do not have the same serial number on the frame as on the engine
>and use the frame number for title purposes. The only way to have the bike
>"legal" would be to punch the number from the old frame into the new frame.
>
It's not legal in most states to alter frame numbers and you will have a
tough time with the law if it's ever checked.
Go thought the procedure issued by your DMV and have the officials assign
the right numbers.
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:55:24
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
At 11:19 PM 9/21/98 +0100, you wrote:
>My Dad was an engineer, and damn near impossible to impress, but that did
>the trick. They were (are, I guess - I still have'm) Sun brand rims, and
>had the oversize-stainless spokes. They were strung very tight - I used a
>3" crescent wrench for the job.
I work them til they're under .015" TIR. Heck, tires aren't that good.
Just as a side point, if your spokes are 'very tight' your wheels are no
more rigid than if they are merely tight, and the latter wheel is actually
stronger against working loads. Why? Because the rigidity of the wheel
isn't affected one whit by preload, but high preloads do use up higher
proportions of the UTS of the spokes or whatever is the weak link.
Have proved above with experiments on bicycle wheels. You get exactly the
same deflections even if the spokes are barely snug, as long as all of them
stay snug when load is applied. Hence I always lace all spoke wheels a bit
loose and if necessary go over them after some riding. In fact, I have
heard of people using low-tensioning and fixitives to keep the nipples from
backing off. Try convincing people of this though, esp the bicyclists (who
seem to have higher levels of Spandex-fixation than even modern bikers).
best wishes,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:53:10
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: MC-Chassis XS650 SA proj
As some of you know I have been (partially due to M Moore) involved in
building SAs for Yam XS650s, which I contracted with members of the
appropriate list. Now that I have them done and time pressure off and
before I get too deep into other projects, thought I'd tell y'all about
that from the inside. These were fab'd entirely of 14-gauge (.078") mild
steel, rectangular tube for the arms and brace, and flat stock formed up
for the gussets and doublers. I used mild steel everywhere because of its
forgiving mature in fabbing and welding. The UTS quoted me for this grade
was 57,000 PSI, pretty good for off-shelf tubing. I shipped two of these SA
the other day and have two left. These can be adapted to other twin-shock
Yamahas with a 200 mm frame spacing. I should have a snap of these on my
site soon. I have stock on hand to make two more complete units, which at
this stage of course can be built to fit anything.
Pieces had to be produced on schedule for the sequence of asm and
economically, meaning minimally wastefully. Hence every layout line and cut
had to be correct from beginning, let alone the horrors of welding
catastrophes. I bandsawed the tubing and dressed all ends and miters here
using my horizontal mill, farmed out doubler and gusset blanks to a nearby
guy with a shear. Precision parts were made in the CNC. Everything was
batched, to conserve mental and physical setup time. It all sounds
automatic but there's plenty of handwork left in it, even w/o torchwork.
Deburring, countouring on the belt sander, weld prep and sandblasting
account for a lot of it, and there is always another machine setup to make.
I spent an hour or two just getting the goods ordered to get started, and
every time I used the CNC it meant writing a program, albeit most were
simple ones.
This design is the same length as standard, has a bit more axle adjustment
and can be conveniently made of 48" of tubing including saw and miter
allowances. The nose is round tubing squared to length and with ends turned
for the dust cover seals. Laminated axle mounts transfer loads efficiently
edgewise and the inherent lateral flexibility of the individual sections
resists fatigue. Here's one place where aluminum is perfect, for the
adjuster doughnuts. Have made this style axle setup in much thinner tubing
and presently have one on my own CB750. I doubt they were first to use it,
but I copied this adjuster layout from of all places, Harley-Davidson;
thought it was the perfect way to go then and have never changed my mind.
Arm blanks were bent by pressing into wooden dies, essentially the two
halves of a block sawed apart on a curve. I used the original arm for a
gauge. The bend is correct when the old arm will completely shadow the new
one, which is thinner seen from the top (except at the axle). Hence, it
clears everything in motion that the old one would; you also get more tire
room. By measuring press displacement and adding a bit along the way for
compression of the wood, I bent all eight arms within a couple degrees or
so, then matched and paint-coded them as pairs. The arms were round-notched
at the right angle for the nose in the horizontal mill using a hole saw
adapted to the shell arbor; it worked great and solved a $$ and time
expenditure getting the right milling cutter.
The axle slots were milled in on my little CNC, using the same program and
vise coordinates to cut slots in the doublers. To make doublers easier I
stacked, aligned and welded along the edges so they could be done as
blocks; once slotted and drilled, they were outline sawed, cutting off the
welds in the process and leaving in hand a stack of loose parts. About the
same time I used the CNC to make the doughnuts (and to mill and drill the
adjuster stop blocks in multiples of four). This allowed me to assemble on
their slots and clamp with an axle all the arms for one side, along with
the doublers and the extra doughnuts for convenience spacers. For better
alignment a long 10mm rod went through all the damper mounting holes, and I
slid in a second axle parallel to the first; it was spaced apart with
wooden wedges, so the doublers all would be centered lengthwise on the
arms. At this time the doublers, still flat, were heated and bent to the
right overall curves to fit the arms. Setting the whole asm down level, I
tacked in all the doublers, unstacked, and finish-welded. The latter took
some odd clamping, heating and ga-banging to make good fits. The process
was repeated for the other arms. Arms were then sawed as necessary for
tapering to the diameter of the nose and for brake arm clearance; these
fits were formed in and welded up before joining to the noses.
The right way to join these is to build a jig onto the milling machine
table, using standard items such as v-blocks, fences, stops and
stud-stand-strap clamping methods. These tables have accurate surfaces all
around for squaring and leveling work and the T-slots make it easy to
fasten items down. In this case the axle is clamped square to the table
long axis in bearing races <=so it can be withdrawn) in the v-blocks, with
the example SA and original straddle adjusters used to space them
correctly. Now the nose of the example is squared to the table also and a
stop placed on one end. These steps are both necessary and sufficient to
allow accurate duplication of the example. At least that's theory; because
I knew the example was bent slightly, the actual process included reversing
it and taking difference measures, used to reset the side stop for the
nose. Now the new arms go on the axle, and the new nose is supported level
with blocking, lightly clamped within the arms' notch and against the stop.
The lateral position of the arms on the nose is set by measure to that of
the example and the nose squared by slightly moving one arm or the other;
the arms are them lightly clamped. Because the parts are not restrained
firmly, welding expansion causes less warping, but careful, symmetrical
preheat is still necessary. A slightly different arrangment of blocking in
essentially the same jig allows tacking in the cross-brace also, then the
arms are free-welded wherever needed. Gussets are tacked, blacksmithed to
allow for the tire and then fully welded. The little offsets in the outside
doublers (for damper position) were added by using a jack made of bolt and
several nuts, to both clamp to the inside doublers and to spread the gap
while the torch made the metal soft enough to dish out. Along the way there
is also some straightening, done hot, to account for warpage in the welding
process.
It's said that you get best results welding in small bits at a time and
that's true in the thin stuff, but in sections this thick one needs to go
on with a full flame and get it in big chunks while it's all hot. Otherwise
a lot of time and gas will be wasted in re-heating. I have basically three
rules: keep a good wide deep puddle going, keep moving along, and don't
re-weld. Full depth welds in this thickness will develop about 2000-2500
lbs per running inch, more than sufficient for the purpose.
As always the devil is in details and there is more jigging to fit brake
anchor and chainguard mount for welding on. The former can be done with the
link and some odd bolts and props. The latter needed a little appliance
which mounted on the hole provided in the doubler, rested laterally on the
end of the nose that side and had a hole to hold the stud on the gusset; I
made it right off the example arm. I hate going back and grinding a lot of
welds and it's bad for strength but there is always need to touch up here
and there, if only in interest of seeing porosity if it exists; this time,
however we got lucky because there was only roughly an inch needing
attention in all the arms. Once all this is done, the asms are straightened
back to the jig again and axle slots checked/filed for fit/cleanup.
No use making precision bushings for these things after all that welding,
w/o taking definitive steps at the nose. That tubing wasn't precision drawn
before the welding and that has changed it some too. The arm is now a bulky
asm and hard to fixture accurately for conventional machining, but there is
an easier way. A piloted adjustable reamer can straighten and align the
whole nose; I powered it with my lathe and alternated ends for several
cycles of increasing size. When a clean surface emerges, the edges are
deburred, the pilot blades are removed and reamer is re-centered exactly
with a dial indicator. Using a bull center in the tailstock to guide the
SA, each end is reamed in turn. This method if carefully applied over
several cycles gives explicit alignment of each end, and reamers are well
known for holding accurate sizes. Turns out when finished the bores were
within .0001" of each other, meaning among other things I can supply
replacement bushes for these if ever needed w/o having the SA back. I
knocked those out on the CNC but wrote the program for them three times
before it ran clean. This time I made nine to get eight good ones, but the
time spent multiply-reaming the noses paid off as these all went in easy
and true and fitted to size/alignment very quickly.
Best wishes
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:16:20 -0600 (MDT)
From: Andy Overstreet
Subject: MC-Chassis wheel lacing
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 batwings@i-plus.net wrote:
> Just as a side point, if your spokes are 'very tight' your wheels are no
> more rigid than if they are merely tight, and the latter wheel is actually
> stronger against working loads. Why? Because the rigidity of the wheel
> isn't affected one whit by preload, but high preloads do use up higher
> proportions of the UTS of the spokes or whatever is the weak link.
> best wishes,
>
> Hoyt
Have to agree with this one - when I first started doing wheels, I thought
tighter would be better. After I had several racers taco wheels during
sprints or from hitting potholes I finally realized what was happening and
started backing off on the tension. I still don't do 'em loose, but snug
instead of trying to kill those nipples. Wheelsmith spoke prep or purple
Loctite work well for lubricant on the threads and for holding the
adjustment on bicycles, don't know what would happen with MC wheels
though.
Andy Overstreet
Albuquerque, NM USA
"All that glitters has a high refractive index."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:38:28 -0500
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis XS650 SA proj
Ollie said "As some of you know I have been (partially due to M Moore)
involved in
building SAs for Yam XS650s, which I contracted with members of the
appropriate list."
Couple questions-
What is the URL of the Yamaha list? I have a couple XS650 FT motors and
would like to be more knowledgeable.
Why did you gas weld these SAs? Would MIG be easier and just as good
(with less porosity problems)?
What is your "little CNC" mill? How does it work (well, obvoiusly). Any
details on the machine?
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:48:56 +0100
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
>I work them til they're under .015" TIR. Heck, tires aren't that good.
You bring up a good point. In fact, I had quite a battle with a tire store
(automotive) once over an out of round tire - they refused to replace the
tire until I came by with a dial gauge.
>
>Just as a side point, if your spokes are 'very tight' your wheels are no
>more rigid than if they are merely tight, and the latter wheel is actually
>stronger against working loads. Why? Because the rigidity of the wheel
>isn't affected one whit by preload, but high preloads do use up higher
>proportions of the UTS of the spokes or whatever is the weak link.
This is an interesting perspective - one that I'd never considered. And,
it makes quite a bit of sense, although I wonder if it produces a greater
variation in the load as the wheel rotates. Pure speculation, of course.
I'd imagine that this would be desirable for an off-road wheel. The wheels
I built were for a superbike.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:13:44 -0700
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
Factory race teams with budgets stretching into the millions, search
for every little gain over their competitors, so I'd assume they
perform wind tunnel testing. During a recent SBK race a commentator
mentioned that the Duc boys determined that Foggy was losing top end,
because of seating position. Obviously they can't stray too far in the
proddy class, but in GP's the most extreme example of aerodynamic
enhancement has been the "droop" tail on Harada's Yamaha:
http://www.europark.com/ny-machn/ny-rmpho/ny-yzr250a97.jpg
Is it posible that the changes made in order to lower the Cd would
cause some handling woes?
I thought the NSU of yore was said to have handled fine, I'm curious if
it was advanced to modern power and grip levels if it would still be
vice free?
The AMA HD Superbike team is competitive in top speed whilst being down
on power:
http://www.motophoto.co.uk/photos/picotte98day0521.jpg
http://www.motorcyclebodywork.com/buell/buellsb.html
(the second is actually SB replica bodywork for the buell, but you get
the idea)
Also Britten went with just the partial fairing after having
constructed a fully faired bike to test aerodynamics. The Britten is
rumored to have a blindingly fast top speed, but it makes truck loads
of power.
Both leave all sorts of aerodynamically "dirty" bits hanging out.
Clean aerodynamics, is easy power, getting a answer on what makes a
good shape is quite difficult.
Obviously you can't explain everything on the list and Tony's site has
some good information, but has anyone tested aerodynamic concepts in
modern battle. A rs125 with HD XR750 replica bodywork etc.?
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
WMMRA 935
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:05:50
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis metal working
At 10:48 AM 9/22/98 +0100, you wrote:
>variation in the load as the wheel rotates. Pure speculation, of course.
>I'd imagine that this would be desirable for an off-road wheel. The wheels
>I built were for a superbike.
If it's made of spokes, hub and a rim the broad behavior is always the
same. Dig it.
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:53:32 +0200
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Rims
> Seriously, I bought a new Akront rim this year and it was terrible. If I
had
> time I
> would have sent it back. The weld area was so crooked I could only get it
> within
> about .035". It seems that Akront did a much better job 25 years ago. As I
> remember you had a hard time locating the weld back then.
Some years back I knew a chap (I forget his name) that decided to go into
production making alloy rims.
He spent a lot of money on extrusion dies for widths from WM2 through to
WM5. (Actually the WM standard stopped at WM3, but general use defined 4 &
5) , he bought a lot of extruded stock, had it welded into rims only to find
that they didn't end up truly circular. By that time he'd spent so much
money that he couldn't afford the rollers necessary to cure the problem, and
the whole project went belly up.
Tony Foale
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/Softtech/motos
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #766
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Wednesday, September 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 767
1. "Michael Moore" Subj: (Fwd) RE: MC-Chassis XS650 SA proj
2. "Tony Foale" Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Wheel runout
3. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
4. Neil Collins Subj: RE: MC-Chassis XS650 SA proj
5. wirewheels@juno.com (TIMOTHY C BOND) Subj: MC-Chassis Re: wheel lacing
6. wirewheels@juno.com (TIMOTHY C BOND) Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Akront rims.
7. "Frank Camillieri" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
8. "Frank Camillieri" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: wheel lacing
9. "Gary Beale" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
10. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
11. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com Subj: MC-Chassis Hailwood's Rep for '90s
12. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:08:38 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: (Fwd) RE: MC-Chassis XS650 SA proj
Hoyt's message bounced due to the dreaded command word in the first
line of his message.
- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
At 09:38 AM 9/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>What is the URL of the Yamaha list? I have a couple XS650 FT motors and
>would like to be more knowledgeable.
It's: listproc@micapeak.com. Just send 's#bscribe your name'in the body.
It's a nice bunch of guys and most of them love their scoots and really
know their scats. They have lots of neat projs like XS650 power in 500cc
singles frames and altering crankshaft throw orientation. There seem to be
lots of big bores out there too. Since Yam was generous in the original
stroke, it's possible to make them over 800cc with no crank work. As with
the Virago also, however, the motor designer needed to go back to
electric-starter-school.
>Why did you gas weld these SAs? Would MIG be easier and just as good
>(with less porosity problems)?
I had a torch and plenty of rod. Have been thinking about a MIG but didn't
want to go into this on the low end of the learning curve.
>
>What is your "little CNC" mill? How does it work (well, obvoiusly). Any
>details on the machine?
Converted Emco-Maier lathe-mill (very nice little European machine) to CNC
with ball screws etc, for overall res of .0002". Made most of the pieces on
the same machine, employing various combos of manual and computer control
along the way as I brought each axis online. I used proprietary steppers
and driver electronics, bought indexer/driver software which does all the
interpolation for the various moves available in the command set, gives off
stepcount and direction signals to motor amps through LPT (printer) ports;
wrote some TurboC++ to serve as operator interface, handle parts file
generation and runback, configure machine, save and change working offsets
to match the physical tool being used, etc. Big advantage of the interface
is it offers prompts and menus, takes only a few keystrokes and some
numerical data, calculates a lot of moves and drips them to the machine;
meanwhile it saves them also. You can make the first part by manual entry
and then just run the file back for the following parts, tool changes and
all. Most CNC work somewhat this way, but it's nice to be able to embed
your own prefs (for example most times you have to do tool offsets in
setup, but for forgetful programmers this one lets you set new tools while
in-process, and it saves all your work whether you designate a filename or
not). The interface turned out better than the machine, being able to
handle six axes and even run different jobs on separate machines
simaltaneously. It's tiny hence pretty quick even on laptops or primitive
platforms like 8088/512K. I have three axes running, am going to use other
three on an XY/rotary table I have. Do little jobs with it all the time,
just load the blank and hit the buttons. Am now tryng to market software,
have lots of demos running out there. I was just working on the interface
in fact right now in another window and it even seems as if it has sorta
taken on a life of it's ow ARRRGaaGGGhfhfhfh NONO-noooo aieeeee
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:22:58 +0200
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Wheel runout
Ollie said:
>>I work them til they're under .015" TIR. Heck, tires aren't that good.
Them's my sentiments exactly.
Tony Foale
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/Softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:52:26 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
> Obviously you can't explain everything on the list and Tony's site has
> some good information, but has anyone tested aerodynamic concepts in
> modern battle. A rs125 with HD XR750 replica bodywork etc.?
Hello Yousuf,
Pete Talabach's 350 Ducati picked up some speed recently with the
addition of XR750 bodywork my friend Craig supplied to him. Another
east coast CB350 roadracer installed one of Craig's smaller big seats
(like on my F750 Laverda) and felt it helped top end a bit.
One of the listees is helping a friend put some of Craig's aero parts
on an RS125 - I don't know how quickly that is progressing though.
When Craig made his first small big seat (they ranged from about
11-15" wide) he put it on a CB125 Honda RR bike that was putting out
about 8-9 bhp at the rear wheel. As I recall the seat was worth
about 5-800 rpm in top gear.
Cheers,
Michael
--------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:30:04 +0930
From: Neil Collins
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis XS650 SA proj
>>Why did you gas weld these SAs? Would MIG be easier and just as good
>>(with less porosity problems)?
>
>I had a torch and plenty of rod. Have been thinking about a MIG but didn't
>want to go into this on the low end of the learning curve.
I am thinking of purchasing of a HENROB welding kit. Has anyone had
experience using the HENROB gas welding torch??? Is there any practical
advantage for a novice user especially when we are talking of braze welding
1.6mm mild steel tubing??? Would I get less distortion??? If not, I would
send the bits out and have them MIG welded. Remembering that MIG is a
lighter than adding 1 kilogram of braze welding rod to the frame.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:56:46 -0400
From: wirewheels@juno.com (TIMOTHY C BOND)
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: wheel lacing
>> Just as a side point, if your spokes are 'very tight' your wheels are
no
>> more rigid than if they are merely tight, and the latter wheel is
actually
>> stronger against working loads. Why? Because the rigidity of the wheel
>> isn't affected one whit by preload, but high preloads do use up higher
>> proportions of the UTS of the spokes or whatever is the weak link.
>> best wishes,
Andy sez to Hoyt:
>Have to agree with this one - when I first started doing wheels, I
thought
>tighter would be better. After I had several racers taco wheels during
>sprints or from hitting potholes I finally realized what was happening
and
>started backing off on the tension. I still don't do 'em loose, but snug
>instead of trying to kill those nipples. Wheelsmith spoke prep or purple
>Loctite work well for lubricant on the threads and for holding the
>adjustment on bicycles, don't know what would happen with MC wheels
>though.
Most important is equal torque on all of 'em. It takes all of 'em to
have a
strong wheel. Prestressing by punching the spokeheads into the hub
and retorquing AGAIN will insure that your wheel is strong and stays
true.
Lube will prevent galling and make the torque happen easier. I use a
synth no-drip that Buchanan's gives me. It's also makes it easier to
take
down a wheel for a new rim, but I've never had the luxury of finding a
wheel that's been lubed. It's always THE BOLT CUTTERS!
Tim(Bondo)Bond Wire Wheels MC Svc Versailles.KY.USA
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WireWheels
WireWheels@compuserve.com WireWheels@aol.com
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:51:51 -0400
From: wirewheels@juno.com (TIMOTHY C BOND)
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Akront rims.
Ian responds re: Akront rims:
>> Twenty thou!!! I gave up at .005", of course I've been a machinist /
tool & die
>> maker for 40 years so even .005" seems like a mile to me. Last week I
had to
>> grind some parts flat within .0001" so I expect wheels to be almost
that good.
>> Seriously, I bought a new Akront rim this year and it was terrible. If
I had time I
>> would have sent it back. The weld area was so crooked I could only get
it within
>> about .035". It seems that Akront did a much better job 25 years ago.
As I
>> remember you had a hard time locating the weld back then.
>I've had the same experience - I used Nordisk on my 2WD and the weld
>area was very poor. When I knocked up some similar wheels for a
>display unit out of some Japanese wheels ( with hollow lips on the rims
)
>I had trouble finding the weld either by sight or by distortion.
Very true re: Akront's. They're not what they used to be but are the
only maker of the high flange rims wanted by vintage types. You have
to ingore the welded portion like you would on a steel rim.
I use to pull in Akront's to .002-3" but now the 2/3 priced Excel are
the best I've found. Of course the tire equals out most of the blems
but I look at dial indicators when building wheels and it's a bit
tiresome to see the QC go downhill.
Akront has gone through some major changes since BMW
and Custom Chrome bailed them out of insolvency. BMW
has since moved to Behr rims and the QC is much higher.
I build the BMW tubeless wire wheels (don't try this at home!)
and see it first hand. I've been checking the spoke torque of
factory BMW wheels ever since the wire wheels built by
machine with Akront rims showed VERY bad/uneven torque
and were experiencing failures on GS bikes. BMW is
getting their act together on the wire wheels. Too bad they
had to chrome plate the rims on the R1100C. I think they'll
flake the day after the warranty expires like aftermarket Harley
sidecovers. But I hate chrome...
BTW, all I do is wheels. Check out some samples of
restoration wheel building/polishing on my webpage.
Tim(Bondo)Bond Wire Wheels MC Svc Versailles.KY.USA
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WireWheels
WireWheels@compuserve.com WireWheels@aol.com
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:50:10 -0400
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
Michael,
Back in the early 70's I set up 2 identical TD2's for Rusty Bradley and myself.
We went out in practice and mine was faster and when we switched bikes I
still was faster. We couldn't figure out why until I noticed, while Rusty was in
the garage on the bike 'checking his tuck' , that his back was lower than the
windscreen. I didn't have this problem cause I out weighed him by 20-30
pounds. We lowered the front fairing mount and then he was faster.
I also has a couple of friends in the 60's with Moto Rumi 125's that could switch
bikes and the short fat guy was always faster. They decided that it was the egg
shaped body that did it.
Frank Camillieri
Chester, NH
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:03:26 -0400
From: "Frank Camillieri"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: wheel lacing
> Most important is equal torque on all of 'em. It takes all of 'em to
> have a
> strong wheel. Prestressing by punching the spokeheads into the hub
> and retorquing AGAIN will insure that your wheel is strong and stays
> true.
Tim,
I will try punching the nipples on my next wheel job. It sounds like the way to
go.
Have you ever thought about how heat expansion on a drum brake loosens the
spokes? Has anyone ever tried to measure it? Maybe it's not important.
Years ago I would always ruin a spoke or two from over tightening. An old-timer
I raced for in the 60's always used Castrol R on the nipples, but then he used it
on just about everything. Come to think of it, I'm almost as old as he was then.
Frank Camillieri
Chester, NH
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:28:59 -0400
From: "Gary Beale"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
Was just thinking about that last night. I'd be interested in hearing more,
when there's more to hear.
Gary Beale
gbeale@atlanta.dg.com
>
>One of the listees is helping a friend put some of Craig's aero parts
>on an RS125 - I don't know how quickly that is progressing though.
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:56:01 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
> bikes and the short fat guy was always faster. They decided that it was the egg
> shaped body that did it.
Hello Frank,
Many fairing designers seem to ignore the rider entirely, when s/he
should be an integral part of the fairing.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:13:48 -0700
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Hailwood's Rep for '90s
Hailwood's Rep for '90s
The sparkling front disc looks as if it's been coated with glitter, but
is
actually made from a high-tech aerospace material called silesium. The
brake is produced by a Slovenian firm called MS products.
Combining the best qualities of cast-iron and carbon-fibre, the
silesium
disc is very light. Best of all, when you brake hard the disc glows
red-hot!
The clutch on the bike also uses exotic materials, including titanium
and
carbon-fibre and weighs just 800 grammes.
______________________________________________________
Yousuf
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:27:43 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Aerodynamics
> Was just thinking about that last night. I'd be interested in hearing more,
> when there's more to hear.
Hello Gary,
Now that the season is winding down I'd guess there won't be any news
on the RS experiment until next year. I'm sure we'll hear something
then.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #767
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Friday, September 25 1998 Volume 01 : Number 768
1. Dick Brewster Subj: MC-Chassis S*bscribe instructions for YAM650 list
2. wirewheels@juno.com (TIMOTHY C BOND) Subj: MC-Chassis Re: wheel lacing
3. papazit@juno.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Great Design Book!
4. papazit@juno.com Subj: Re: MC-Chassis XS650 SA proj
5. "Michael Moore" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Great Design Book!
6. Stephen Watson Subj: MC-Chassis Introduction
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:14:13 -0700
From: Dick Brewster
Subject: MC-Chassis S*bscribe instructions for YAM650 list
You need to specify the list name.
send to listproc@micapeak.com
and send
s#bscribe yam650 your name
in the body of the message
Substitute "u" for the # in the message and substitute teh name
you want to appear on the list for "your name"
Of course I am dong this from memory so this may be screwed up
too.
Regards,
Dick
Michael wrote:
<< It's: listproc@micapeak.com. Just send 's#bscribe your name'in
the body.
It's a nice bunch of guys and most of them love their scoots and
really
know their scats. They have lots of neat projs like XS650 power
in 500cc
singles frames and altering crankshaft throw orientation. There
seem to be
lots of big bores out there too. Since Yam was generous in the
original
stroke, it's possible to make them over 800cc with no crank work.
As with
the Virago also, however, the motor designer needed to go back to
electric-starter-school. >>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:51:12 -0400
From: wirewheels@juno.com (TIMOTHY C BOND)
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: wheel lacing
>> Most important is equal torque on all of 'em
>> Prestressing by punching the spokeheads into the hub
>> and retorquing AGAIN will insure that your wheel is strong
>> and stays true.
Frank responds to my blathering:
>Tim,
>I will try punching the nipples on my next wheel job. It sounds
>like the way to go.
The nipples are usually pretty square with the rim. I countersink
new alloy rims because the mill usually leaves a burr and you
want to relieve that square drilling. It's the spoke HEADS that
you want to punch into the HUB. This is where the bend is and
where the spoke working against an alloy hub will bed in.
Especially if the torque is uneven, or someone has adjusted
just one spoke to true up a wheel. THAT'S what screws up a
drum. You have to work groups of 4-6-8>> to keep torque even.
I started this gig crashing 10 speeds. Olympiccycling coach
Gene Porteusi taught me to prestress those spindly wheels by
putting on leather gloves and grabbing groups of 8 spokes
and just sqeezing the crap out of them and retorquing.
Then I went on to crash MX'ers:). All the OLD Brit/-H-D
manuals say to punch the spokesin to the hub. IOW,
I didn't make this up...
>Have you ever thought about how heat expansion on a drum
>brake loosens the spokes? Has anyone ever tried to measure
>it? Maybe it's not important.
Not to worry. Tension on all the spokes arrives while
setting the initial true. Then you equal the tension,
retrue/torque, retrue/torque, retrue/torque, retrue/torque,
prestress and then, you guessed it, retrue. Whew!
A bent type spoke will have lots of spring for any heat
expansion of the durm. GOOD wheels with straight
pull (nail) spokes (read all BMW's and some other smart
guys) need to have equal torque or you WILL have
an out of round drum.
Tim(Bondo)Bond Wire Wheels MC Svc Versailles.KY.USA
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WireWheels
WireWheels@compuserve.com WireWheels@aol.com
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:59:14 -0400
From: papazit@juno.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Great Design Book!
>However, John Bradley's "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for
>constructors, Vol 1" is still readily available, and I'm the North
>American distributor for that. John has been working on Vol 2, and
>we're hoping to see this next 400 page volume available towards the
>middle of next year.
I'd like that one too. How much?
Chris (CJ) Johnson, Engineering Director
College Park Industries, Inc. (http://www.college-park.com)
Home Office (616) 664-4173 at CPI (810) 294-7950
papazit@juno.com
Scorpa 250/Fantic 305/Gas-Gas 160/Three Yamaha 650s/BMW R75/6
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:11:31 -0400
From: papazit@juno.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis XS650 SA proj
I don't really know Henrob, but have had great luck from Victor (a.k.a.
Power somethingerother) torch kits. The quality is there, and it's easy
to modulate the gas flow. I prefer the smaller size kit to the large
one. The big one is for klutzy Farmer Jack-size stuff. I like the 0 and
00 size tips for brazing.
I have been doing much less brazing since I purchased my Miller
Synchrowave 351 TIG welder. That $5k set-up shore do beat a mere
oxy-acetalene kit!
Chris (CJ) Johnson, Engineering Director
College Park Industries, Inc. (http://www.college-park.com)
Home Office (616) 664-4173 at CPI (810) 294-7950
papazit@juno.com
Scorpa 250/Fantic 305/Gas-Gas 160/Three Yamaha 650s/BMW R75/6
On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:30:04 +0930 Neil Collins
writes:
>
>>>Why did you gas weld these SAs? Would MIG be easier and just as good
>>>(with less porosity problems)?
>>
>>I had a torch and plenty of rod. Have been thinking about a MIG but
>didn't
>>want to go into this on the low end of the learning curve.
>
>I am thinking of purchasing of a HENROB welding kit. Has anyone had
>experience using the HENROB gas welding torch??? Is there any
>practical
>advantage for a novice user especially when we are talking of braze
>welding
>1.6mm mild steel tubing??? Would I get less distortion??? If not, I
>would
>send the bits out and have them MIG welded. Remembering that MIG is a
>lighter than adding 1 kilogram of braze welding rod to the frame.
>
>Neil
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 04:48:35 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Great Design Book!
> I'd like that one too. How much?
Hello Chris,
John Bradley's book is still (in North America) US$69.95 plus
shipping and CA sales tax if appropriate. Full details are available
on the website and I've got plenty of books in stock.
Cheers,
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 12:10:15 +1200
From: Stephen Watson
Subject: MC-Chassis Introduction
To whom it may concern:
Introductions are called for when first subscribing to a new list ; My
name is Steve watson , and Im in the final year of a Mechanical
Engineering course and race a GSXR400R 1989 -which is currently
undergoing wieght reduction program.
I have ridden bike for as long as I can remember ,trained as a Honda
mechanic as well as a despatch rider in London , and now just build em
!!
yours Stephen
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #768
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Saturday, September 26 1998 Volume 01 : Number 769
1. Lauren Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Introduction
2. geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. ) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Introduction
3. geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. ) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Seniority
4. Stephen Watson Subj: MC-Chassis Bending moment & deflection of a wheel spindle
5. Lauren Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Introduction
6. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Introduction
7. "David Doudna" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Introduction
8. Alan Lapp Subj: MC-Chassis Steering Dampers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:38:50 -0700
From: Lauren
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Introduction
At 05:10 PM 9/25/98 , Stephen Watson wrote:
>To whom it may concern:
>
>Introductions are called for when first subscribing to a new list
I too am new to the list (I subscribed yesterday). While I am conversant
with engines (having worked as a diesel mechanic for about 6 years before
switching to developing computer software), I am somewhat a neophyte when
it comes to bikes chassis design. I have ordered several books on chassis
design but I am hoping I can also get some advice from this list.
My main motive for joining this list is to learn enough that I can make
informed decisions about how to modify my Beemer to not toss me off when it
gets crossed up - which it recently did at about 85-90. I have been told
that late model BMW Airheads have a lot of flex in their frame and that
stiffening the frame can have a postive impact.
Since there seems to be very little traffic on this list for me to watch
while lurking - maybe someone would care to comment on my supposed problems
with my BMW frame?
FWIW,
LCB
'91 BMW R100GS - Geist der Freiheit
'94 Suzuki DR350ES
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 05:38:49 GMT
From: geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. )
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Introduction
On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:38:50 -0700, you wrote:
>My main motive for joining this list is to learn enough that I can make
>informed decisions about how to modify my Beemer to not toss me off when it
>gets crossed up - which it recently did at about 85-90. I have been told
>that late model BMW Airheads have a lot of flex in their frame and that
>stiffening the frame can have a postive impact.
>
>Since there seems to be very little traffic on this list for me to watch
>while lurking - maybe someone would care to comment on my supposed problems
>with my BMW frame?
There is a guy racing (!) a BMW R80 (!) in Wellington. Talking to
him at a meeting a few months back, there are a couple of things you
can do (besides either praying or going Japanese)
He canted the motor at an angle to increase ground clearance. He als
ran a brace from above the swingarm to the steering head or backbone
to try and triangulate the standard loop frame. he was afast if
somewhat loose unit.
Cycleworks in Wellington (NZ) made the bracing, and another company
down there specialises in BMW twins. If you are interested, I can see
if I can find out some contact details.
Geoff
Geoff
- --
Radar detector FAQ, Forte Agent automation FAQ, bathroom fan FAQ
and THE WORLDS BEST CHRISTMAS PUDDING RECIPE
are at http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/
REMOVE "DELETEME" SPAMBLOCKER FROM ADDRESS TO REPLYTO USENET POSTINGS
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 05:38:51 GMT
From: geoff@pop.ihug.co.nz (Geoff Merryweather. )
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Seniority
Hi tony, the book I ordered from you a while bike hasn't shown up yet?
How did you send it - if it is surface mail, it is probably still on
it's way.
Geoff
- --
Radar detector FAQ, Forte Agent automation FAQ, bathroom fan FAQ
and THE WORLDS BEST CHRISTMAS PUDDING RECIPE
are at http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/
REMOVE "DELETEME" SPAMBLOCKER FROM ADDRESS TO REPLYTO USENET POSTINGS
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:50:06 +1200
From: Stephen Watson
Subject: MC-Chassis Bending moment & deflection of a wheel spindle
Help....
I am trying to determine the minimum size of a front wheel spindle for
my Race bike -GSXR400R- at the moment it is a steel axial of 15mm dia
with a length of 215 mm . I have used four different methods to try and
figure the deflection out and I end up with similar numbers e.g. the
axial will deflect approx. 80 mm at the center .
What !!?? Well I have used the formula(WxA)/(24 x E x I) x ( 3x L ^2
- - 4 x A^2)= Y
Machinerys Handbook page 221 case 4.
Now call me doubting Thomas but I dont believe that My axial
deflects this much. So I wonder if there is anyone out there that can
help me. - I dont Know what type of steel the spindle is made of but i
do Know that the reactions are 13 mm in from each end,
Cheers for any assistance Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:05:20 -0700
From: Lauren
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Introduction
At 10:38 PM 9/25/98 , Geoff Merryweather. wrote:
> If you are interested, I can see if I can find out some contact details.
Geoff,
Thanks for the feedback - I have been getting some good ideas from reading
Tony's articles, and now I am going to go home and look at my bike's frame
from many different angles.
I want to maintain the basic purpose of my bike - an R100GS - which I
bought to be a fun commuter, sport tourer, and occasionally something to
take up the various logging roads and trails I encounter on trips. Several
weeks ago I came around a corner on a highway at a good clip (85-90 MPH)
and hit a slick spot, got crossed up, recovered and then the handlebars
started a series of tank slappers that eventually resulted in my parting
ways with the bike.
After having thought about it for awhile I think the bike can benefit from
some stiffening of the frame and forks among other things (including myself
paying more attention to the road). I know HPN in Germany will reinforce
the frame but I would like to consider having it done somewhat locally if I
can, rather than shipping the bike halfway around the world (I reside near
Seattle, Washington, USA).
So I am basically looking for others who might have some feedback on what
does and doesn't work on the BMW Paralever Airhead frames. I don't intend
to race the bike - but I do like to ride fast and have noticed a decided
tendency for the bike to have speed wobbles when encountering slight road
irregularities (like lane reflectors) at speed, especially when at speed
leaning over. This kind of behavior I can do without - especially when it
gets so radical that I am tossed from the bike.
While I am considering a steering damper, I would like to address the cause
as much as possible and not the symptoms.
FWIW,
LCB
'91 BMW R100GS - Geist der Freiheit
'94 Suzuki DR350ES
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:19:27
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Introduction
At 11:05 PM 9/25/98 -0700, you wrote:
>weeks ago I came around a corner on a highway at a good clip (85-90 MPH)
>and hit a slick spot, got crossed up, recovered and then the handlebars
>started a series of tank slappers that eventually resulted in my parting
>ways with the bike.
If your bike uses that shitty little sheet-netal top 'clamp' your problem
will go away when you replace it with something having 3 dimensions. BMW
went through a huge lawsuit about a decade ago where it was alleged and
proven that the fork is legally defective. I don't know if they recalled
them, but they did pay a huge settlement. Maybe you should simply see a
lawyer and let BMW pay for your mods.
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 09:25:35 -0700
From: "David Doudna"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Introduction
On 26 Sep 98 at 7:19, batwings@i-plus.net wrote:
> If your bike uses that shitty little sheet-netal top 'clamp'
He has a 1991 R100GS. It has an adequate cast upper triple clamp.
I think you have to go back to the pre-Paralever models like the
R80G/S and R80ST to find the cheesey sheet-metal design.
> your problem
> will go away when you replace it with something having 3 dimensions.
The experience of myself and many other R100GS owners suggests his
high-speed wobble problem will largely go away by replacing BMW's
stock rear shock (which starts puking oil within 30Kmi and stops
properly damping within 100yds of the dealer floor) with a superior
product. The Ohlins is the best choice if he can afford the approx
$800 price tag.
> BMW
> went through a huge lawsuit about a decade ago where it was alleged and
> proven that the fork is legally defective. I don't know if they recalled
> them, but they did pay a huge settlement. Maybe you should simply see a
> lawyer and let BMW pay for your mods.
I know that design looks horrible, but strangely I've seen many
R80G/S and R80ST owners ride just fine with the stock front end.
Most of them _do_ have aftermarket rear shocks, however. I wonder
if BMW was ever sued over the shocks.
I have seen one used R80G/S with an obviously aftermarket billet
top triple clamp. If you have one of these old Monolever BMWs and
you're more comfortable with wrenching than suing, you could just
see about installing one of these pieces. Couldn't be much more
than $100... IMHO cheaper than a "free" legal consultation.
- -DaVE Santa Clara, California BMW R100GS, Beta TR32 Trekking
ddoudna@best.com, dd@EPIsupport.com Guzzi 1000S, Moto Morini 250 2C
408.247.0377 408.719.5620 [1999 Guzzi V7 Ippogrifo, RSN?]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:18:23 +0100
From: Alan Lapp
Subject: MC-Chassis Steering Dampers
>While I am considering a steering damper, I would like to address the cause
>as much as possible and not the symptoms.
If you can't find an existing linear steering damper kit for your bike, and
have to fabricate stuff, I'd recommend the Scotts or WER rotary steering
damper. I have a Scotts on my racebike, and my best friend has a WER on
his. They have nice action - some of the linear dampers seem to have an
'over-center' feel i.e. the damping isn't uniform lock to lock. They also
have a very wide range of adjustment.
However, I think that you're on the right track - a damper is merely a
bandaid solution, and seeking to fix the cause of instability will
ultimately lead to the superior solution. I know racers who have their
dampers set so stiff that they weave all over the pit area because they can
barely steer at low speed, and I always wonder why they don't find out how
to fix the problem.
Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #769
******************************
MC-Chassis-Dgst Sunday, September 27 1998 Volume 01 : Number 770
1. "Rick" Subj: MC-Chassis El Mirage Land speed record
2. Ian Drysdale Subj: MC-Chassis Axle deflection
3. "Sam Stoney" Subj: MC-Chassis BMW Chassis Mods
4. "Tony Foale" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #769
5. Hnry@aol.com Subj: Re: Fixing wobbles (was MC-Chassis Intro.)
6. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: MC-Chassis BMW Chassis Mods
7. batwings@i-plus.net Subj: Re: Fixing wobbles (was MC-Chassis Intro.)
8. Johnayleng@aol.com Subj: Re: Fixing wobbles (was MC-Chassis Intro.)
9. "Ray or Emily Brooks" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis El Mirage Land speed record
10. "Rick" Subj: Re: MC-Chassis El Mirage Land speed record
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:29:20 -0700
From: "Rick"
Subject: MC-Chassis El Mirage Land speed record
Hi Everybody
I broke the El Mirage Land speed record On Sunday the 20 Th on my Turbo GSXR
street
bike
the record was 202 MPH and I did 204MPH. boy was that hard. We were racing
on a dry lake bed so traction was the issue but after turning DOWN the boost
and using a roadracing rain tire I finally did it. If I can only get more
traction I'm sure I could up that number by at least an other 25 MPH as I
have gone 230MPH on the pavement. If anyone has any ideas my ears are open
Turbo Rick
300HP Turbo GSXR1100 Street bike And Performance Bikes
Links Page, Chat Room
Web Site http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/
Technical info http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/specs.html
Pictures http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/pictures.html
Land speed Racing http://members.xoom.com/gsxr1127/lsr.html
Turbobike Mailing List http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/list.html
Online motorcycle book store http://members.xoom.com/gsxr1127/book1.htm
EL Mirage Land speed Record holder 204.262 MPH
E-mail gsxr1100@ptw.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:53:09 +1000
From: Ian Drysdale
Subject: MC-Chassis Axle deflection
> I am trying to determine the minimum size of a front wheel spindle for
> my Race bike -GSXR400R- at the moment it is a steel axial of 15mm dia
> with a length of 215 mm . I have used four different methods to try and
> figure the deflection out and I end up with similar numbers e.g. the
> axial will deflect approx. 80 mm at the center .
>
> What !!?? Well I have used the formula(WxA)/(24 x E x I) x ( 3x L ^2
> - - 4 x A^2)= Y
> Machinerys Handbook page 221 case 4.
>
>
Without going thru it - it sounds like you are mixing up your
units. Also remember that an axle only clamps up the bushes
and bearings - in effect creating a larger diameter - which
obeys the 'power of 4' rule - i.e. - twice the diameter has
16 times the bending moment.
The spot in which your loads are applied ( ie not in the
centre of the axle as the standard formula probably assumes )
also is critical. The formula also probably assumes the
the ends are 'pinned' - where as an axle is held solidly
both ends - double canterlevered. It is far from a straight
foward calculation.
As with most things on a bike - calculations aren't straight
foward - rather axle sizes etc are more a result of evolution
over 50 years.
BTW - I would lay money that the Boeing engineers had a
good look at that Jumbo that lost it's roof over the Pacific
( by rights it should have ripped in half ) and made some
notes about where they had put to much material into it -
we can save another 100 kilos here - and use less rivets
over there...................
Cheers IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale
DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 01:44:02 -0700
From: "Sam Stoney"
Subject: MC-Chassis BMW Chassis Mods
I''ve got a bit of experience modifying BMW frames - here's some things
I've tried:
- -put a stronger upper triple clamp on the bike
- -Run braces from the steering head to the swingarm pivot
- -Gusset up all the little pieces around the Cyl head
- -Telefix fork brace
- -raise the engine in the frame
These are listed in the exact reverse order of the effectiveness I've
percieved racing BMW Twins.
Hoyt, I would like to see the lawsuit regarding that top clamp; I've
replaced more than one and never seen a change in front end stiffness. My
opinion is it's pretty damn hard to bend a 1/8 plate on it's flat axis;
particularly when it's held parrallel by three massive parallel bolts.
Intuitivly I don't believe it's a weak point and my experience backs up
that intuition. Not to say I can't be wrong - I seem to be a minority of
one when it comes to defending that particular design.
The next three items fall under the "I think I felt an improvement"
category. I noticed something, but I'm not sure it had a truly positive
impact on anything.
Raising the motor in the frame is certainly noticable. I don't understand
why, but it seems to be more stable in turns. The front mount is above the
cradle, the rear is bolted right through through the cradle. Cornering
clearance is grossly improved, of course.
The last mod was done by a guy in Seattle; I'll get his name if you want.
Or for that matter, I've got a BMW R100 in a R65 chassis with all the above
mods; just buy it from me.
Now, with all that said: Lauren, don't mess with your frame. The chassis is
more than adequate for what you are talking about doing with the bike. The
other suggestions about steering dampers are probably better investments.
The Factory BMW P-D racebike used a near stock frame, FWIW. The only
difference I know of is they modified the monoshock rear end into a twin
shock.
Personally, I love racing BMWs because that chassis wallows and wobbles so
predictably. And, while my street R80gs wobbled, it was consistant and
controllable. Kind of fun.
Sam
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:00:05 +0200
From: "Tony Foale"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #769
Stephen asked:
<<
I am trying to determine the minimum size of a front wheel spindle for
my Race bike -GSXR400R- at the moment it is a steel axial of 15mm dia
with a length of 215 mm . I have used four different methods to try and
figure the deflection out and I end up with similar numbers e.g. the
axial will deflect approx. 80 mm at the center .
>>
I haven't bothered to go over your calcs. but you are so obviously getting
the wrong answer. So if you are using the appropriate formula maybe you are
not using appropriate units.
Anyway, it is often useful to use a larger spindle that any that you might
calculate, as this can help considerably to ensure that the fork legs move
more or less in unison. This is less easy to calculate because it also
depends on the axle fixing in the fork legs themselves. Trial and error or
experience are more useful in this regard. Various Italian bikes have used
large front spindles to good effect.
Tony Foale
Espaņa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/Softtech/motos
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 07:17:42 EDT
From: Hnry@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fixing wobbles (was MC-Chassis Intro.)
Hello,
David Doudna's reply included, " ... many other R100GS owners suggests his
high-speed wobble problem will largely go away by replacing BMW's stock rear
shock ... " and he mentions its flaws include leaking oil and improper
damping.
I ride an '84 Kawasaki GPz 750, that has the 'Uni-Trak' rear suspension. This
machine has the ability to weave in a high speed sweeper. A popular "fix" is
replace the stock rear single shock.
Why-how does the rear suspension cause the bike to weave or wobble? I'm
guessing it's unsettled, pogo-ing?
Scott Jameson
Greenville, South Carolina
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 07:06:59
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis BMW Chassis Mods
At 01:44 AM 9/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Hoyt, I would like to see the lawsuit regarding that top clamp;
I have no particulars; believe it was written up in one of the cycle mags
and it was about a decade ago.
>replaced more than one and never seen a change in front end stiffness. My
>opinion is it's pretty damn hard to bend a 1/8 plate on it's flat axis;
Bending across the plane of the not-clamp isn't the issue; the problem is
w/o having torsional resistance in it, the rest of the fork can twist back
and forth using those massive bolts for pivots and actually unscrewing them
slightly in process. My opinion, and it comes from having built a lot of
billet trees with pinch bolts all around, is that the latter is far superior.
I would extend that to the idea that torsional resistance in the fork is
the ultimate necessity there, as the interchange of forces between wheels,
which is the definition of 'stability' for two-wheelers, is seriously
compomised by inability to resist twisting in fork. IOW, you cannot steer
or correct for pertubations if the fork response is to twist instead of
displace OR control displacements of the wheel.
>particularly when it's held parrallel by three massive parallel bolts.
What reinforces the portions between the (I presume you mean) fork caps and
stem caps?
>Intuitivly I don't believe it's a weak point and my experience backs up
>that intuition. Not to say I can't be wrong - I seem to be a minority of
>one when it comes to defending that particular design.
My own intuitions run counter to that (I was surprised to see one before I
even began riding motorcycles), and so did the careful analysis of the
experts and engineers testifying. As for experience, I have replaced stock
but pinch-clamped factory trees with similar billets and had people tell me
they could feel the diff pushing it onto the trailer. And if you're the
only one arguing something, listen to what others are telling you.
>Now, with all that said: Lauren, don't mess with your frame. The chassis is
>more than adequate for what you are talking about doing with the bike. The
>other suggestions about steering dampers are probably better investments.
Sorry, it isn't and it does need work. IMHO the best improvements will be a
proper top clamp and a SH-SA brace. If the bike doesn't have a deficiency
in handling, a steering damper is not needed.
>wallowing
Need we say more? Wallowing is not acceptable.
Best wishes,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 07:16:08
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: Fixing wobbles (was MC-Chassis Intro.)
At 07:17 AM 9/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>I ride an '84 Kawasaki GPz 750, that has the 'Uni-Trak' rear suspension. This
>machine has the ability to weave in a high speed sweeper.
Just for the record, most 80s GPZs suffered from a swingarm which was small
dia compared to the wgt and performance. I had a pal with a 550 which shook
regularly. People who know my prefs will probably begin gagging about right
now, but replacing the SA bngs which were shot with good snug bronze units
made it better. For bigger bikes and/or racing, I would suggest using a
stronger or reinforced SA.
> A popular "fix" is
>replace the stock rear single shock.
>Why-how does the rear suspension cause the bike to weave or wobble? I'm
>guessing it's unsettled, pogo-ing?
Close!! It doesn't directly affect the wobble, but it does tend to keep the
bike's suspension from getting into positions where it is most sensitive to
that; this is one reason stiffer front fork springs can also help, as
generally they will hold the bike in attitudes with less dive-induced rake
steepening, hence the front end is in a more stable position more of the
time. Some of the same effects can be had in the rear.
Best regards,
Hoyt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 10:30:27 EDT
From: Johnayleng@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fixing wobbles (was MC-Chassis Intro.)
In a message dated 9/27/98 5:18:30 AM Mountain Daylight Time, Hnry@aol.com
writes:
> Why-how does the rear suspension cause the bike to weave or wobble? I'm
> guessing it's unsettled, pogo-ing?
>
As they say: "The tail wags the dog"
John Aylor NM
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:56:03 -0400
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis El Mirage Land speed record
Lots of ballast.
Ray
- ----------
> From: Rick
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis El Mirage Land speed record
> Date: Saturday, September 26, 1998 10:29 PM
>
> Hi Everybody
> I broke the El Mirage Land speed record On Sunday the 20 Th on my Turbo
GSXR
> street
> bike
> the record was 202 MPH and I did 204MPH. boy was that hard. We were
racing
> on a dry lake bed so traction was the issue but after turning DOWN the
boost
> and using a roadracing rain tire I finally did it. If I can only get more
> traction I'm sure I could up that number by at least an other 25 MPH as I
> have gone 230MPH on the pavement. If anyone has any ideas my ears are
open
>
> Turbo Rick
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:33:04 -0700
From: "Rick"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis El Mirage Land speed record
I tried using as much as 250 lbs. of ballast right in front of the rear tire
without much effect . For the record I had 115 lbs.. of ballast.
I know the aerodynamics of the bike aren't to good
any ideas????????????
Here is a current picture
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4762/dyno2.JPG
Turbo Rick
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ray or Emily Brooks
To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis El Mirage Land speed record
>Lots of ballast.
>
>Ray
>
>----------
>> From: Rick
>> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
>> Subject: MC-Chassis El Mirage Land speed record
>> Date: Saturday, September 26, 1998 10:29 PM
>>
>> Hi Everybody
>> I broke the El Mirage Land speed record On Sunday the 20 Th on my Turbo
>GSXR
>> street
>> bike
>> the record was 202 MPH and I did 204MPH. boy was that hard. We were
>racing
>> on a dry lake bed so traction was the issue but after turning DOWN the
>boost
>> and using a roadracing rain tire I finally did it. If I can only get more
>> traction I'm sure I could up that number by at least an other 25 MPH as I
>> have gone 230MPH on the pavement. If anyone has any ideas my ears are
>open
>>
>> Turbo Rick
>
------------------------------
End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #770
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