Lightweight Roadrace Digest #1-10
LtWtRR-digest Tuesday, April 1 1997 Volume 01 : Number 001
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:34:56 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Test Post
This is the first test post
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:57:30 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR test message 2
test message 2
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:58:10 +1100
From: Daniel_Builth-Snoad@wlgore.com
Subject: LtWtRR Introduction
Just a quick intro of who the hell I am and how I relate to these lists
(lightweight- roadrace and mc-chassis-design). My name is Danny
Builth-Snoad and I'm based out of Sydney, Australia. I'm a mechanical
engineer so I tend to get into the tech end of things a fair bit, this
combined with a tendency to fiddle leads to a full garage. I'm racing a
RS125 at the moment (amusing to say the least at 6'2", team praying mantis)
which is where the lightweight racing side comes in. The chassis design is
for several projects, the biggest being a SRX600 with USD forks, mono-shock
rear and any other improvements I can make along the way.
The notion of an RS125 with CR500 donk caught my eye in the intro for the
lightweight list. How hard is it to do and does it work? I think I may have
just found my next project.
Cheers, Danny
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:02:09 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR General stuff from the administrator
Hello folks,
Thanks for signing up. Things are moving along smartly, and
hopefully there will be lots of snappy patter going on soon.
A word of warning: don't use the term "subscri*e" in your posts.
It looks like the majordomo software parses regular list messages for
command words, and I've had a couple of my own messages bounced
because it didn't know how to treat the other unknown words coupled
with the subsri** command word.
Also, don't forget that anything that has more than 3 times the
amount of quoted text vs the new text will get bounced. Prune the
old included messages before you send the new message.
Digests are set to be issued every day, and towards the end of the
first week I'll either post offering to forward the weeks digests to
the latecomers, or hopefully I'll have figured out how to access the
archived text so that I can post instructions.
I'd include an intro, but I a lot of your names coming through on the
subscribe messages are familiar. If you don't know me, check out my
web site for some bio stuff, along with various articles on my
projects, and lots of photos of trick-framed bikes and other bumf.
If you have any questions on the list operation feel free to post me
directly, or to the list if you think others need to know too.
Have fun!
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:10:46 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Membership stats
FYI,
As of 9 PM PST there are:
VintRR 57
VintDirt 6
GSTwin 9
LtWtRR 5
MC-Chassis 12
people signed up so far (regular and digest).
Once things have trickled down a bit from the members from the lists
I'm on I'll post info to the newsgroups.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:24:31 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Re: MC-Chassis Introduction
> combined with a tendency to fiddle leads to a full garage. I'm racing a
> RS125 at the moment (amusing to say the least at 6'2", team praying mantis)
> which is where the lightweight racing side comes in. The chassis design is
> The notion of an RS125 with CR500 donk caught my eye in the intro for the
> lightweight list. How hard is it to do and does it work? I think I may have
> just found my next project.
Hello Danny,
Scott Anderson has been talking about doing one of the CR/RS jobs.
I'm glad to see another full-sized person on the lightweights. I'm
6'/183# and I intend to build my EX250125GP=? project (see the web
page for articles on it) with a ~54" wheelbase so that I can not only
fit comfortably but have also a chance to get some forward weight
bias. Stan Malyshev has offered me a spin on his new 95 TZ125, and
I'm looking forward to giving that a try. My friend Craig Hanson
(lots of his bikes on the web site too) told me that racing his
water-cooled special framed TA125 was the most tiring thing he ever
did on the track. Mondo concentration, every second. This may be a
problem for me, as I tend to find myself goggling at people at
trackside/the speed at which I'm being passed or thinking about how
thirsty I'm getting during a race.
Still, I'm very much looking forward to getting my small bikes up and
running (including my CR216 Honda vintage racer, and eventually my
Honda S90 engined - Derbi 80 replica cafe racer (yet to be built)).
Welcome to the list,
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:51:20 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: LtWtRR Intro
Let's see... My name is Glenn Thomson, I'm 41, and live in Waterloo,
Ontario ( about an hour west of Toronto ).
I'd been considering an RS125 as a next step in roadracing, should I want
something faster or more reliable than the CB450 I'm currently assembling
for vintage racing, when Michael announced this list. It's obviously a
sign from the racing gods that I should get one.
So I'll probably lurk for a while, and surface to ask some basic questions
now and then.
Thanks in advance,
Glenn
msgr@hookup.net
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:48:19 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Reminders from the list admin
Hello listers,
Welcome to the new members (I added about 100 so far today to all the
lists, and my fingers are tired!). You'll see some variation of this
post pretty near daily for the next few days, until some of the
bounces stop.
REMEMBER:
Don't use the word "subscrib*" in your posts. This version of
Majordomo parses all the messages to the lists, as well as messages
to the software. If it sees a command word (only the s* word so
far) in a post to the list it will try to treat the post as a
command, and will bounce it both to you and to me when it can't
figure out what to do.
For those of you who use multiple PCs/ISPs: these are closed lists.
If your email address isn't in the list of suscr****ers your
message will be bounced. I've already had a couple of people who,
it appears, signed on from work and then posted when they got home
to their private account. It won't work.
Remember that Majordomo looks at the quoted text:new text ratio. If
the quoted text is more than 3X the new text it will bounce your
post. Keep the included text pruned to the minimum to prevent a
bounce (and make it easier to read for the rest of us).
The bounce messages should show you somewhere in them why the post
bounced. I get a copy of every bounce to deal with, and I'll try to
send you a message pointing out what you need to do to correct the
bounce, but it would be helpful if you could try to figure it out on
your own too (or maybe even prevent the bounce from occuring). If I
have to spend a lot of time dealing with bounces I'm going to change
it so I'm not notified about the bounce, and you'll be stuck on your
own, at least until I get a chance to help you after you've notified
me.
Digests should be issued daily (if there was any traffic in the given
24 hour period). I'll keep copies of the digests on file, and will
send them to you (but don't be in a rush to receive them).
Replies will automatically be sent to the list, unless you change the
address. Keep this in mind if you are going to make a personal reply
to someone.
Be patient. I have to do this in my (right now) limited free time.
If I had realized it would be so time consuming (hopefully this will
taper off once the initial rush is over) I would have postponed
things for a month, until the Laverda is back together and the 2
national vintage races later this month are over.
Still, let me know if something isn't going right on the lists or
your traffic, and I'll try to get things sorted out ASAP.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
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End of LtWtRR-digest V1 #1
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LtWtRR-digest Thursday, April 3 1997 Volume 01 : Number 002
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 19:39:41 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR List stuff
It looks like some people may be having trouble with their typing
and/or reply-to address when they subsc*ibe. Then again, some people
just appear to be having trouble - they are getting the list messages
but aren't being recognized by the list when posting.
I'm seeing your bounced messages, and doing what I can to try and
correct things. Sirius just started offering lists last week, and
I've already identified one bug in the software that they've
corrected. If you get a bounce, I'm trying to send you a message
after I've checked things out asking you to repost the bounced
message. Please don't keep reposting over and over. If you have
trouble, send me an email.
If I can't correct things I'll send an email to the admin at Sirius,
but they only answer stuff during regular work hours, so it may take
12-24 hours to get things straightened out.
FWIW, this message just bounced all 5 lists because I used the
complete spelling of the dreaded sub***** word in the original text.
The price of not bouncing is eternal vigilance, or something like
that.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:08:13 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Addresses must match and a new bad word
I just had Ollie repost his message, as the first time bounced as not
being a list member. He had his reply-to addre** changed (for
anti-spam reasons) from his actual addre** which he was subcr***d
under.
I asked him to change his reply-to addre** to his actual addre**, and
his message went through.
I guess this means that any of you that have some email addre** in
your reply-to line other than the one the list can look up will have
to change things to match when you post to the list.
It also looks like you may need to have the addre** from which the
post is sent match as well.
The above bounced as it seems that majordomo gets confused with
addre** as well as subscri** (though it got to line 6 before
bouncing, ignoring the first instances of addre**).
I'm going to send a message to the ISP admin and ask them about this,
since it seems like more people are doing this modification on a
regular basis.
My message is getting even longer with the new problem.
Perhaps we should just drop a vowel from every word, just in case?
Thanks for your patience; mine is starting to evaporate.
Things will get sorted out eventually.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 20:19:37 +0000
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR A possible solution?
subscribe
subscribe
subscribe
address
address
address
If this gets through I may have fixed the mistaken command word
problem.
The Admin told me that my setting "administrivia" to yes in the
configure file may have made majordomo over-sensitive to command
words in posts. I've just set it to off for all lists (regular and
disgests) and I'm sending this message to see if it helps.
I bet by now you all can hardly wait to start your own exciting
career as a mailing list administrator. If any of you have extensive
experience with Majordomo and can shed some light on this (or offer
some helpful tips), please send me an email.
8:18PM, and I still haven't gotten into the garage. Grrr. At least
I didn't have any crises with the LAN at work today with which to deal.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:06:15 +1100
From: Daniel_Builth-Snoad@wlgore.com
Subject: LtWtRR CR/RS thing
I haven't received any messages through this list yet but I suspect that
this is a Notes gateway problem at my end.
In the interests of furthering my lunacy I will push on to find the secret
techniques of distilling the essence of CR500 into a RS125. In an earlier
posting Michael mentioned that Scott Anderson was planning to build such a
beast, are you out there Scott? Here in Australia I have never heard of it
being done, is Scott's going to be the first or are they a dime-a dozen in
the States? Here I race against stock CR500's with slicks and overall we
are pretty well matched, in the end we just win if you duck for their
'bars. The chance to combine the best of both worlds is a little too
tempting.
Are they ridable? small wheelbase, small tyres, big power, is this going to
end in tears? Do sane riders race them or is it just the glassy-eyed
lunatic fringe (much like the CR racers here)?
I have the chance to pick up a cheap 89 RS (wire wheels, small carb, late
frame) which would be the ideal donor bike when combined with my spare
wheels etc so I want to draw on some OS experience with these things and
start pulling the bits together. Any information around would be most
useful as I'm starting from scratch over here, please grant a sick man his
wish.
Cheers
Danny Builth-Snoad
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:55:29 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR CR/RS thing
Hello Danny,
There hasn't been much traffic on the list so far. Scott did try to post about the
RS125/CR500, but even though I couldn't see anything wrong with his
address the post was rejected. He'll probably try again tomorrow
after he gets my messages.
I'd think you might want to start by lengthening the swing arm to get
around a 53-54" wheelbase at minimum..
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:01:01 -0500 (EST)
From: "Mark J. Andy"
Subject: LtWtRR Hello #2
Howdy,
Just a test message and an intro... I race a '94 RS125 and am looking
forward to lots 'o good info on 125's here!
Mark
-------------------------------------------------------------
The 1997 M and N Racing Team
Team Owners: Laura Maynard-Nelson, Paul Hoyt Nelson
Riders: Paul Hoyt Nelson (WERA/CCS/NASB Expert #81)
Mark Andy (WERA Expert #3)
Tuner: Connie S. Brooks
Manager: Laura Maynard-Nelson
-------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 15:48:16 -0600
From: "Chen, Jeff"
Subject: LtWtRR How much trouble could it really be...
Ramble-ramble-ramble...
A couple of weekends back I was running my new (to me) RS125 around a
deserted industrial complex near my friend Scott's house. Anyhow, at
that point we noticed that the left-hand fork seal was leaking oil
something fierce, so we quit for the day.
I dug up HRC Brian Uchida's phone number (thanks, Todd) and gave him a
ring. Unfortunately, the forks I have on the the bike right now do not
look like the ones in the manual (the stock forks have air adjustment,
while the forks on there now have a preload adjuster on the top), so
Brian could not tell me which seal I needed until I measured the fork
tube diameter. We measured it at 31mm with a caliper; Brian said that
my choices should have been 30mm and 35mm. Hmm. So I went ahead last
Friday and 2nd-day aired (I have race school this weekend) two of the
30mm seals, hoping that they were the right size.
Monday they arrived at via FedEx COD. Picked them up 5 minutes before
closing Monday night. So yesterday (Tuesday) at about 7PM I went over
to Scott's place to try to replace the fork seal.
Keep in mind that I'm not the most mechanically adept person. I took
off the fork caps and springs, then hoisted the front end in the air
with a one of those hooky things...(tie down, that's what it's
called...I almost said zip-tie) and a ratchet hook. Had no trouble
taking off the front wheel...after I figured out that I hadn't yet
removed the axle pinch bolts yet (doh!).
Took off the fork leg after much wrestling with getting the bar mount
off of the fork leg. After that, I had not a clue. Called Scott (he
wasn't home from work yet; I don't envy accountants at tax time); he
told be about the circlip and how it fit over the seal; he was coming
home anyway, so I just waited. Got the fork leg apart, put on the new
seal, and put it all back together, using a paint roller (!) as
something to push the seal down into the fork. Nasty looking oil, BTW.
Never seen oil that color before...greyish silvery? Not good.
Put the fork leg back on. and filled both forklegs with fresh oil.
No problem. Put the wheel back in place and slip the axle through. No
problem, except the axle won't go through... Loosened the fender and
stuck the axle in the freezer for a few minutes. Axle goes through.
Home free now, right? Put the axle nut back on... Or not. It was
partially cross-threaded. Scott wrestled with it for a while, then gave
up and I gave it a try. Finally got it to thread on straight only to
strip the remaining threads off where the nut is on there but it took
about 5 times as many turns to get it flush with the fork as it should
have...
And this is the easy stuff...
I'm scared!
P.S. I'm taking the free GLRRA rider's school this weekend at Grattan.
If any of you are going to be there or at the Sunday free practice,
please let me know or find me while you're there! Name's Jeff; I'm a
skinny Oriental guy with long hair and glasses. I'll be on an older
RS125 with a red/white/blue paintjob that looks like the 1989 Honda
CBR600F. Should be there with a green Civic coupe dragging a red
trailer. Oh yeah, and I'll be the slower moving blip on your radar...
;)
- --
Jeff.
1989 Honda RS125
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 16:45:06 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Admin stuff - everyone please read
It looks like we'll just have to take our chances on spam-mongers.
I don't have time to handle all the subscription approvals, so I've
changed the lists to a "confirm" style of subscription. Apparently,
the majordomo will send back a confirmation message/number which is
then resent by the subscriber. It was a closed subscription, which
meant I had to approve everyone. I thought that would be best to
avoid spammers, but I don't have time, and another list administrator
has told me that the confirm option works OK (or at least helps).
I've also changed so that you no longer have to be a list member to
post to the list. Too many people seem to have trouble, either with
posting from somewhere other than their subscription address or
having an address that varies depending on what server the mail goes
through at the ISP.
This means that as soon as the spammers get the list addresses we're
at risk. Again, I don't have time right now to fool with all the
bounces, so we'll just have to take our lumps. If spam gets to be a
problem (more than the occasional message) I'll see about restricting
posts to list members again.
These changes should vastly reduce the traffic into my in-box. If
you have a problem that you can't solve by all means mail me, and
I'll work with you.
Some of you have bounced - it looks like you might have posted before
being subscribed (which took a return message from me). You may now
be subscribed (I've done everything pending), so you might think
about reposting your intro messages.
Thanks, and sorry for the bother (on both sides!). I thought running
a restrictive policy on the list would make things better for the
members - I hope loosening things won't make things worse, but I just
don't have the time to deal with 30-100 subscription approvals/day,
and another 20-30 bounce messages.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
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Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:38:41 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR How much trouble could it really be...
> Brian could not tell me which seal I needed until I measured the fork
> tube diameter. We measured it at 31mm with a caliper; Brian said that
> my choices should have been 30mm and 35mm. Hmm. So I went ahead last
> Friday and 2nd-day aired (I have race school this weekend) two of the
> 30mm seals, hoping that they were the right size.
Hello Jeff,
If you look at the seal you should be able to find the dimensions or
a seal number on it. Most seals will have a dimension like 45 30 10
showing the OD/ID/thickness. Also, most seals are a standard
dimension, so if you find those numbers or a part number you
shouldn't have any trouble identifying the part in the future.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 17:38:41 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR A tip
Some of you have your text editors set for an extremely wide line,
and I'm losing some of your text because of that.
I think if you could set for a 70-80 character line with word wrap
things would work out better.
I don't want to lose any valuable info that I can apply to (swipe
for) my projects.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 20:40:08 -0500
From: RDSRUS@sssnet.com (William Fulmer)
Subject: LtWtRR Intro
Greetings,
My name is Bill Fulmer and have Approx. 30 years of motorcycle riding
and racing in. I am trying to get back after a 15 year layoff from
roadracing by building a Formula RD bike. I live in N.E.Ohio and can be
reached at RDSRUS@sssnet.com Thank you
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 08:44:57 -0400
From: Mike Ray
Subject: LtWtRR hello
Hello-
I'm a new subscriber to the list and would like to introduce myself.
I raced an MT125 in 1985 and 1986 and had a great time. I was the
AAMRR Formula IV champ on this near-vintage machine in 1986. Later I
moved on to a TZ250. I've been out of racing for a few years now. I
ride a Duc 900SS on the street. I'd like to go 125 racing again but can't
do it just yet. Maybe next year. I sure do miss the smell of a 2-stroke
burning CAM2 and Castrol R.
Any old AAMRR racers on the list?
Anyone running a 125 at Summit Point?
Mike Ray
Alexandria, VA
------------------------------
End of LtWtRR-digest V1 #2
**************************
LtWtRR-digest Friday, April 4 1997 Volume 01 : Number 003
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Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 09:35:38 -0800
From: jdahl@dvicomm.com (John Dahl)
Subject: Re: LtWtRR CR/RS thing
Daniel_Builth-Snoad@wlgore.com wrote:
>
> I haven't received any messages through this list yet but I suspect that
> this is a Notes gateway problem at my end.
>
> In the interests of furthering my lunacy I will push on to find the secret
> techniques of distilling the essence of CR500 into a RS125. In an earlier
> posting Michael mentioned that Scott Anderson was planning to build such a
> beast, are you out there Scott? Here in Australia I have never heard of
I am building a cr500 powered lwrr bike, but useing a copy of the Tul-da
frame made by Rob Tuluie. I don't have it done yet (soon, please God)
so i can't yet say how well it works. The prototype i rode seemed well
manner enough, but it was also a Summit Point, so there was no traction
to get salty with. What do the Cr racers there do to their bikes?
John Dahl
CCS/LRRS ex#450
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 97 11:47:54 EST
From: "Mr P Snell"
Subject: LtWtRR Test2
Hello everyone,
Just a test to see if Michael's fixes have allowed me to post.
Pete Snell
Royal Military College
Kingston, Ontario, Canada
Snell-p@rmc.ca
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:31:22 -0700
From: Brad.Glustoff@zool.AirTouch.COM
Subject: LtWtRR Greetings
Greetings All, just a quick note to introduce myself. If you want to chat,
ask/answer
questions or just abuse me, go for it. B
Brad Glustoff age 38
brad.glustoff@airtouch.com
So. Cal USA
CMRRA 13a (Cal Mini Road Race Assn)
1989 YSR50 race
1990 NSR250 street
1995 TZ125 / CR80 race
1995 916 Yahoo ...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:11:17 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Graphics posted to the lists
Hello folks,
Just a reminder - please don't post graphics to the list.
First off, it can overload some peoples systems (and they might not
even be interested in the picture).
Even more important, the lists are configured to a maximum message
size, and most graphics will exceed that. This means your message
will just be bounced anyway, and any valuable comments that may have
been included with the graphic file will be lost forever (or at least
until you repost them without the graphics).
And yes, someone did just attempt to post a graphics file.
Out of curiousity, did majordomo fail to send out the intro file when
you subscribed? I mentioned the graphics policy (and other similar
stuff) in that. Perhaps it is the old RTFM problem rearing its head.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
End of LtWtRR-digest V1 #3
**************************
LtWtRR-digest Saturday, April 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 004
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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 97 11:52:12 PST8
From: jcheeney@CCGATE.HAC.COM
Subject: LtWtRR Introduction
New reader introduction:
Interested in gray market street bikes. Want to find out where to get
my cheap 1997 Aprilia RS 250 SP and how to license it in Southern
California. Relatives in Michigan and Florida could help if
necessary.
Interested in those who might have experiences contrasting the modern
Jap 400s with the 250cc street bikes. Reliability factors too.
Thanks.
John Heeney, 33 yrs
jcheeney@ccgate.hac.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:07:25 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR FYI - Subscribers, gen list stuff
As of 3:56PM on Friday (PST) the subscribers stats are:
30 vintage-dirt
80 vintage-roadrace
31 lightweight-roadrace
19 suzuki-gs-twin
68 mc-chassis-design
Things now seem to be moving along pretty well glitch-wise. I posted
about the lists to the different rec.moto.??? lists this morning, so
maybe we'll pick up some more people soon. I suspect that
vintage-dirt might get some from rec.moto.dirt as there often seems
to be a thread about starting a rec.moto.vintage-dirt list (which
hasn't happened as far as I know).
For those of you who might be shy about posting to the lists because
of a perceived lack of knowledge on the topics - don't be. I think
that you'll find that most people are glad to educate (different
from berate, mind you), and at times some of us will find out that
we didn't know quite as much as we thought we did when we first
answer someone's question. I've certainly learned some stuff over
the past 1.25 years of being on mailing lists.
Besides, it is often interesting to me when someone asks a question
about a bike in their garage that, while to them is just "their old
bike", turns out to be some bit of rare/exotic/wierd/famous tackle.
I know that some of you have some pretty interesting scoots - tell us
some details: are they reliable, do you have to make all your own
parts, are they really worth +/- 10 seconds a lap?
Thanks to everyone who's been posting - I'm having fun.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:34:16 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR 125 wheelbase and suspension
I'm posting this to both the lwtrr and chassis lists.
As most of you probably know I've got an EX250 engined project for
AFM F3 (125GP). A couple of things about the 125GP bikes puzzle me,
and I'm hoping to get some feedback on them.
Wheelbase: many of the 125s seem to have 48-50" wheelbases. Why not
run a more normal length - at least 250 size if not 54-55"?
A very short wheelbase means that it is very hard to get a forward
weight bias when the rider is installed, since so much of the rider
ends up behind the c of g. A 54" range wheelbase would allow a much
better weight distribution, by allowing the rear axle to be moved
back from the rider (presuming the rider is already as far forward as
could be on a shorter w/b bike). This is esp. true of some of us in
the 6' and 180# range.
What happens when your short w/b bike loses the rear wheel? Does it
tend to chop away and spit you off? A longer w/b would make this
much more controllable. Also, you'd have less pitching over bumps,
and a bit more straight-line stability.
Suspension: 125s seem to run 3-4" of suspension front and rear.
Doesn't this make them "skitter" across the tops of bumps, rather
than maintaining traction? John Bradley has a friend (Fernando
Mendes) who is one of the better UK 125 riders, and John told me
that experiments with longer suspension travel resulted in slower
lap times. This seems contra-intuitive to me. John also was a top
125 clubman rider in the UK (and he's about my size) and told me that
he liked the skittering of the 125. Sounds a little to exciting for
me!
Most of the pictures I've seen of 125s give the impression that they
aren't running out of ground clearance due to a low engine position,
so there shouldn't be a need to limit travel for that reason.
My bike will have a Hossack/Fior/McKagen/Foale/Britten etc type front
end on it, and with the reduced dive possible, as well as a more
vertical suspension action, 4" of travel is likely to give me the
equivelant of 5" in a telefork. 4-5" in the rear seems reasonable to
me too.
I'm interested in hearing from you people with 125 riding exerience;
you don't need to be an ace on the chassis analysis side if you can
tell me what you've noticed while riding the bike. Of course, if you
are a wiz 125 rider AND and experienced chassis designer/constructor,
so much the better!
I'll try to pick up any interesting posts that don't get sent to both
lists and forward them to the other list.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:34:16 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR CR/RS thing
> I am building a cr500 powered lwrr bike, but useing a copy of the Tul-da
> frame made by Rob Tuluie. I don't have it done yet (soon, please God)
> so i can't yet say how well it works. The prototype i rode seemed well
> manner enough, but it was also a Summit Point, so there was no traction
> to get salty with. What do the Cr racers there do to their bikes?
>
> John Dahl
Hello John,
If you have some nice pictures of the frame of your bike I'd be
interested in getting copies/scans to post on my web site. I vaguely
recall a not very detailed picture of the original bike in RW&MT
several years ago, but some clean snapshots would probably offer a
lot more information.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 20:13:33 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR hello
On 3 Apr 97 at 8:44, Mike Ray wrote:
> Any old AAMRR racers on the list?
Yup. The old Loudon was my favourite track. What's the new one like?
Are the old AAMRR stalwarts still around in another club?
Still got an AAMRR stickie on my toolbox.
Cheers,
GT
msgr@hookup.net
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:13:28 -0800
From: David Dold
Subject: Re: LtWtRR 125 wheelbase and suspension
At 04:34 PM 4/4/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Wheelbase: many of the 125s seem to have 48-50" wheelbases. Why not
>run a more normal length - at least 250 size if not 54-55"?
It seems that longer wheelbases are very effective at controlling excessive
wieght and/or power through corners ... the 125 has neither, so why give up
the advantages of a quick flick for straight line stability.
They seem to already have a lot of weight on the front ... I know I feel
like most of my wieght (6'1", 180lb) is on my hands, unless Im trying to
wheely at which point I sit on the tail section and yank. I dont have a lot
of front/back mobility on the bike, being fairly well placed by the (ouch)
tank in front and bump in back, but Ive never noticed the bike lacking in
stability and my first impression every time I get on it after my streetbike
is always how much emphasis is placed on driving the front wheel.
>What happens when your short w/b bike loses the rear wheel? Does it
>tend to chop away and spit you off?
Before the mx ... itd be either a quick catch or ass out of the seat holding
on. it never actually spit me off (the highside, that is) but it had a
tendency to be abrupt. Now that Ive done a small bit of mxing, things re a
bit more manageable, most likely because the pucker factor has been removed
a bit, allowing more concentration.
>Suspension: 125s seem to run 3-4" of suspension front and rear.
>Doesn't this make them "skitter" across the tops of bumps, rather
>than maintaining traction?
I think its a matter of how much feel the bike has ... it seems like the
tires are skipping over ripples, etc. but it cant be. In 2 at Thunderhill
is a prety bumpy little section that you go through in 4th or 5th cranking
on it and while it gets a bit unsettled, it doesnt slide so abruptly that it
would make me think the tires were not in continuos contact. Thats about
the only corner I can do right so far, so its my examle for everything if
anyone gets bored with it.
>are a wiz 125 rider AND and experienced chassis designer/constructor,
>so much the better!
Im afraid youve struck out on both points with me
Dave
AFM, CCS No. 272
93 VFR400R, 93 RS125, 87 KX500, 65 J1
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
ddold@crl.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 17:48:11 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR 125 wheelbase and suspension
> It seems that longer wheelbases are very effective at controlling excessive
> wieght and/or power through corners ... the 125 has neither, so why give up
> the advantages of a quick flick for straight line stability.
Hello Dave,
Is there a chance the quick flick is more of an aspect of very light
weight instead of the wheelbase? Granted, a longer wheelbase is
going to be a bit more "stable" but a very light bike should still
be responsive.
> They seem to already have a lot of weight on the front ... I know I feel
> like most of my wieght (6'1", 180lb) is on my hands, unless Im trying to
All right, another "full size" small bike enthusiast! You can set
any bike up so that a lot of weight is on your hands, but if the
wheelbase is short your butt/thigh area (a pretty dense part of the
body) is much closer to the rear wheel, which means the actual
fore/aft weight distribution of the vehicle including rider is going
to be more towards the rear.
> tendency to be abrupt. Now that Ive done a small bit of mxing, things re a
> bit more manageable, most likely because the pucker factor has been removed
> a bit, allowing more concentration.
A longer wheelbase bike is often a little friendlier to us
less-than-ace riders, as it isn't quite as sudden.
> tires are skipping over ripples, etc. but it cant be. In 2 at Thunderhill
> is a prety bumpy little section that you go through in 4th or 5th cranking
> on it and while it gets a bit unsettled, it doesnt slide so abruptly that it
> would make me think the tires were not in continuos contact. Thats about
> the only corner I can do right so far, so its my examle for everything if
> anyone gets bored with it.
Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic in expecting the race track
surface to eventually get as bumpy as the Nimitz freeway.
> >are a wiz 125 rider AND and experienced chassis designer/constructor,
> >so much the better!
>
> Im afraid youve struck out on both points with me
Thanks for the input - I appreciate it.
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:02:06 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR CR/RS thing
On 4 Apr 97 at 16:34, Michael Moore wrote:
> Hello John,
>
> If you have some nice pictures of the frame of your bike I'd be
> interested in getting copies/scans to post on my web site. I vaguely
> recall a not very detailed picture of the original bike in RW&MT
> several years ago, but some clean snapshots would probably offer a
> lot more information.
I got a reasonable snap of the TulDa in the pits at Mid-Ohio last year,
sans fairing ( and cylinder, for that matter ). I'll try to get it
scanned.
GT
msgr@hookup.net
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 21:09:51 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Like father like ....
I was just looking through an issue of Roadrace World reading an
article on Rodney Fee's 1996 125GP season.
What caught my eye was when he mentioned that after one of the
Spanish races he spent time in the hospitality truck belonging to the
team of Angel Nieto, Jr.
There are certainly plenty of parent/child racing dynasties, but I
hadn't been aware that Angel Nieto had a child, much less that he was
racing at the international level.
For those of you that are hazy, Nieto rode Derbi, Bultaco (and I
think a season on either the Kreidler or Jamarthi) 50/80/125s during
"The Golden Years" of the 60/70s. He's apparently a bit
superstitious, so you have to be careful to mention that he won 12 +
1 World Championships in the small GP classes (not 13!).
The tiddlers were soooo cool. Is there anyone on the list who has
any vintage tiddler roadracers - not so much the TA125, but the
exotics - CR110/CR93 Honda, Kriedler 50/80, etc?
There was also an interesting article on a big-4 stroke endurance
racer's first rides on an RS125. Lots of food for thought on the
difference in big and little bikes.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 06:44:08 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Re: VintRR Re:Like father like ....tiddler racing
> time of going to press) a Van Veen Kreidler 50 offered for sale by a
> Jean-Marie Compere who has two. One is the 1971 Jan De Vries factory bike,
> the other is a similar privateer bike of the same period. He can be
> These bikes were track tested by Alan Cathcart in the March 97 issue of the
> UK mag Motorcycle Classics.
Hello Stephen,
I saw the review, and I'd love to have one (or both), but, alas,
there isn't any money in the motorcycle fund for expensive
collectibles (only for extremely cheap collectibles). 50cc road
racers are, as some say here in the States, cute as a bug's ear.
That is one of the attractions that being able to build my own
chassis has for me - I can then afford to have lots of really trick
bikes, at least as soon as I can get around to building them.
One scheduled project is to build a Derbi 80/Linto style space frame
to take one of my Honda S90 engines. I've picked up a set of wheels
from a Kawasaki AR80 (very similar looking to Campagnolo mags), and
have some 32mm Marzocchi forks that I have to shorten up. This
should be a fun little cafe racer. I've also done some preliminary
sketches and accumulated some parts (valves, springs, guides,
tappets) for a 2v DOHC head for the 90. One thing I never run short
of is future projects!
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 10:22:09 -0500 (EST)
From: "Mark J. Andy"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR 125 wheelbase and suspension
Howdy,
On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, David Dold wrote:
> They seem to already have a lot of weight on the front ... I know I feel
> like most of my wieght (6'1", 180lb) is on my hands, unless Im trying to
> wheely at which point I sit on the tail section and yank. I dont have a lot
> of front/back mobility on the bike, being fairly well placed by the (ouch)
> tank in front and bump in back, but Ive never noticed the bike lacking in
> stability and my first impression every time I get on it after my streetbike
> is always how much emphasis is placed on driving the front wheel.
I'd definately have to agree with that. Compared to the FZR400 I rode in
'94, it feels like all of my weight is centered just behind the front
wheel, even (to some extent) while coming outta corners. Certainly you
feel like you're riding the front on corner entrances and the like.
> >What happens when your short w/b bike loses the rear wheel? Does it
> >tend to chop away and spit you off?
I can't speak for rear slides, but the front end is definately just
barely on the right side of too twitchy. Coming under the bridge at Road
Atlanta, the front end unweights a bit. After I started going decent
through there, I noticed that _any_ bar input would lead to the front
wheel slapping a bit (not uncontrolably, but it was clear that it wasn't
pointing in the same direction as the bike was headed). I attributed
this to a fairly quick chassis/suspension and no weight.
I'll let you know about the highsides sometime soon, I'm sure :-)
> I think its a matter of how much feel the bike has ... it seems like the
> tires are skipping over ripples, etc. but it cant be. In 2 at Thunderhill
> is a prety bumpy little section that you go through in 4th or 5th cranking
> on it and while it gets a bit unsettled, it doesnt slide so abruptly that it
> would make me think the tires were not in continuos contact. Thats about
> the only corner I can do right so far, so its my examle for everything if
> anyone gets bored with it.
I noticed this as well. If it were a heavier bike, the abrupt shuddering
would indicate that the tire was skipping across the tops of bumps. With
the 125's light weight and ultra-light unsprung weight, I think what's
really happening is that the suspension is following the road. Many
times at Road A. I felt the bike shuddering up and down over bumps when
leaned over, but it never broke traction or exhibited any kinda sliding
like you'd expect if the tire was alternately gripping/releasing.
> >are a wiz 125 rider AND and experienced chassis designer/constructor,
> >so much the better!
> Im afraid youve struck out on both points with me
Me too, but hopefully not for long (at least w/respect to the first issue :-)
Mark
-------------------------------------------------------------
The 1997 M and N Racing Team
Team Owners: Laura Maynard-Nelson, Paul Hoyt Nelson
Riders: Paul Hoyt Nelson (WERA/CCS/NASB Expert #81)
Mark Andy (WERA Expert #3)
Tuner: Connie S. Brooks
Manager: Laura Maynard-Nelson
-------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 18:47:10 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Additions to the Laverda weights page
The Barry Watkins articles on building light MX bikes in the early
1970s got me into weighing parts on my bikes. Several weeks ago I
started a page on my web site to record the SF2RR Laverda road
racer's component weights as it goes back together.
I've just added some more component weights. The front forks were
already there, and I've added swing arm, front wheel, rear wheel,
rear dampers/springs, exhaust and frame weights. Remaining are the
footpegs and mounts, battery/electronics/tach, clip ons and hand
controls, front brake caliper/mount/master cylinder, tank, seat,
fairing and mounts, engine stuff, and anything else I've skipped.
I've totaled the individual components at the bottom of the page.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
End of LtWtRR-digest V1 #4
**************************
LtWtRR-digest Monday, April 7 1997 Volume 01 : Number 005
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 12:58:20 +0000
From: Jason Van Slyke
Subject: LtWtRR Questions
I've been looking for a forum to ask some questions, and this looks like
the closest thing I could find.
A bit about myself, I have lived in Japan for several years as a
salesman and had a friend who raced there on TZ250s rather
competitively. I bought a bunch of old Japanese bikes in the States and
exported them there. While there I got hooked on smaller bikes, owning
a FZR250 which is a four cylinder 4-stroke bike which revved to 19,000
RPM and was a blast in spite of the clutch I had worn out and its
flexiflyer frame.
Upon return I bought an SRX250, a thumper with two exhaust pipes and the
YICS dual carb setup that was completely stock.
It is a bit slow, but I love the handling. It's a lot of fun on the
street, especially when I wear full leathers and sliders. It is
extremely prdeictable, but it just doesn't have any guts. Which is why
I am writing the question:
What can I do to the bike to make it quicker and not lose too much low
end grunt (on a 250?) without adding weight. The second part of the
question is whether anyone out there has any specific experience with
this engine or engine family (I think the engine was in the DT250 and
DT350 off-roaders) so they can give specific advice.
I just got some BT35s on it, and since they are still brand spanking
new, I'm not wild about the idea of getting too leaned over with them
yet.
Thanks in advance,
Jason Van Slyke
http://www.isd.net/jvanslyk/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 20:42:50 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR Questions
> exported them there. While there I got hooked on smaller bikes, owning
> a FZR250 which is a four cylinder 4-stroke bike which revved to 19,000
> RPM and was a blast in spite of the clutch I had worn out and its
> flexiflyer frame.
Hello Jason,
The Japanese domestic market 250/4s sound really neat. I'd be
interested in hearing more about them. I read an article in an
English magazine about a guy with a Honda 250/4 that he had dressed
up somewhat like an early 1960s factory bike. From what I recall,
the thing kept blowing up until he determined that the con-rods were
growing some amazing amount at red line, causing an interference fit
between the piston and head.
> Upon return I bought an SRX250, a thumper with two exhaust pipes and the
> YICS dual carb setup that was completely stock.
> It is a bit slow, but I love the handling. It's a lot of fun on the
> street, especially when I wear full leathers and sliders. It is
> extremely prdeictable, but it just doesn't have any guts. Which is why
> I am writing the question:
> What can I do to the bike to make it quicker and not lose too much low
> end grunt (on a 250?) without adding weight. The second part of the
> question is whether anyone out there has any specific experience with
> this engine or engine family (I think the engine was in the DT250 and
> DT350 off-roaders) so they can give specific advice.
My friend Craig, who tunes on my race bikes, has done some stuff
with an XT350, which is the same basic engine. In fact, he said
that from the valve sizes on the 350 (small) he figures they just
stretched the 250. Craig has the 350 running quite well and has
been thinking about the 250 as there is another list member (Matt
Goodman - he may only be on the Thumper list) who has one that he's
planning on racing. If you want to see about some cylinder head
work you can reach Craig at:
Craig Hanson
Hanson Racing Technology
Chico CA
916-342-8049
He could also design a pipe that would work well. I can supply
Kei'hin CR Dual carbs for your bike - I think they recommend dual
26mm carbs for your application.
Speed costs money - how fast do you want to go?
Welcome to the list,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:05:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Todd Nordby
Subject: LtWtRR RS125 porting specs, B-kits, etc.
I thought I'd carry over the goofy B-Kit debate from
the other list.
Anyway, my racing buddy, Jeff Young, and I have been
trying (not very hard) to get info on RS125 B-kits over
the past few years.
Our info as it stands:
HRC does not make B-Kits, but gives specs to various
"aftermarket" companies who produce the kits.
Some US sources say they have B-Kit copies.
Some US sources say a stock cylinder cannot be ported to
B-Kit specs.
Some US sources say they have ported stock cylinders to
B-Kit specs.
There are various "power up" guides which contain porting
specs, head shape specs and pipe specs.
One thing we want to know is what the power up guide is. Is
it the B-Kit specs? If not can you get the B-kit specs?
What is the truth about B-Kits vs. stock cylinders? How do the
aftermarkets make the B-kits, do they start with stock cylinders?
On a semi relaated note, the power up guide for various
years has you change the port heights. My question is: do tuners
really port to the nearest 0.1 mm !? For example, the '95 power up
guide gives the stock exhaust height as 28.4mm and says modify it to
28.1mm.
1 - does that 0.3mm _really_ make that much difference?
2 - can you tell me with a straight face that some one can take their
dremel type porting tool and cut 0.1 mm off of a port, and measure the
port that accurately?
- --
TN
nordby@euclid.northbrook.aieg.mot.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:04:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: SCOTTA336@aol.com
Subject: Re: LtWtRR CR/RS thing
Danny-
The collective wisdom says that a primary problem with CR500 roadracers is
vibration. The RS125 hangs the motor from the main framerails with a couple
of long vertical arms which terminate in rubber donuts. The rear of the
motor bolts into the big casting where the swingarm mounts. I figure you'd
have to rely on building a more secure arrangement using all of the CR500
motor mount points (4, if I remember correctly) plus a headstay. I'd
probably go with a removable lower cradle.
Once you compare the size of the motors, you'll see that there's little
chance of stuffing the monster cylinder in the RS frame without having the
spark plug in your chest. The frame rails aren't wide enough for the
engine's girth, and the kickstarter gear makes even a CR125 motor an
unacceptable donor.
What you're left with is building a whole new frame around the CR500 mill and
bolting on the RS components. Not that it's a bad idea. I sure want to ride
one.
I think the result would be hilarious. Wheelies? 65 HP in a 49 inch
wheelbase! Powerslides? A 3" wide rear rim and 180 pounds of bike!
Stoppies? I've got a Brembo caliper gripping the single stock rotor, and my
eyeballs still hurt from bouncing off my face shield. It'd probably take the
surgical team twenty minutes just to get the smile off my corpse.
ScottA336@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:41:47 -0400
From: Mike Ray
Subject: Re: LtWtRR CR/RS thing -Reply
FWIW here is my two cents on the CR500 project. Back in about 1986,
Larry Hanlon dropped a CR500 motor in a TZ250 (I believe that it was an
H model) frame. He ran the bike very successfully in AAMRR F3. I
checked AMA/CCS race results from the Northeast region last year and
noted that Larry was still winning on something with a CR500 motor. The
same bike? Maybe? Unfortunately, Larry was seriously injured last year
during a race.
The TZ250/CR500 was an awesome bike. The CR500 is a lot of motor
for a 125 frame. What is the motivation for putting that motor in the 125
frame? Why not get an old 250 frame?
Mike Ray
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:54:49 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR CR/RS thing -Reply
A picture of Rob Tulie's CR500 powered Tulda road racer will be at
the top of the general roadracers section of the graphics page on my
web site within minutes of this message.
Thanks to Glenn Thompson for the photo sans bodywork.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:24:51 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Why it should be big and hollow
I'm sending this to both the chassis and ltwt-rr lists, as both sets
should be interested.
As you know, I've been weighing the Laverda parts as it goes
together, and I thought I'd show why large OD tubular axles are the
way to go.
Many bikes have 15mm solid steel front axles (a standard vintage 35mm
Ceriani RR fork) or, in the case of the RS125, a 15mm tubular axle.
A common bearing is the 6205. The standard axle in my 38mm
Ceriani/Marzocchi forks is 20mm.
My Laverda now uses a 25mm axle with 2mm walls, and a 6005 bearing.
I believe that moment of inertia is used when comparing different
structures. The bigger the moment of inertia, the stiffer the part
will be. I'm sure any engineers will be able to provide textbook
language here, but that should be good enough for now.
I used the moment of inertia formula from "Machinery's handbook"
PI * (Diameter**4 )/4 or .049 (D**4) for solid
.049(D1**4 - d2**4) for tubular (D1 OD, d2 ID)
A solid 20mm axle has a m of i of 7840. The hollow 25mm axle has an
m of i of 9611, and improvement of 22%. The weight of the standard
Ceriani axle (which, granted, has an integral 25mm shoulder on one
end to act as wheel spacer) is 722 grams, and the tubular axle weighs
296 grams, or only 40% of the standard part. Even if you used a
straight 20mm axle with an aluminum spacer in place of the shoulder
the tubular 25mm axle will still probably be half the weight, and 22%
stiffer than the original axle.
If you compare a solid 15mm axle to the 25mm unit, you should find
(if I punched the keys right) that the 25mm axle is almost 4 times as
stiff as the 15mm axle, while weighing only 81% as much as the
smaller axle!
Now you can pick up or lose weight on the wheel bearings depending on
the comparison. The standard 20mm wheel bearing is about .234
pounds, while a slightly lower load rating (but still quite adequate)
25mm bearing is .176 pounds. In this case you save lots of weight on
both the axle and some weight on the bearings. Going from the
standard 15mm bearing to a light duty but heavier load rating 20mm
bearing picks up about 50% in bearing weight (.099 vs .152 pounds).
I'm not going to work it out, but I think that a tubular 20mm axle
could be designed that would offset the bearing weight increase and
still increase stiffness over the 15mm axle/bearing assy. I believe
the RS125 15mm front axle is hollow, so it will be a bit lighter,
but still things can probably be improved. My RS125 Dymag wheel
uses a 25mm bearing on the disc side already, so only one bearing
would pick up weight on the application.
Food for thought!
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
End of LtWtRR-digest V1 #5
**************************
LtWtRR-digest Wednesday, April 9 1997 Volume 01 : Number 006
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:49:44 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR re: Why it should be big and hollow
I forgot to mention that the Dymag wheels don't have enough meat in
the casting to allow insertion of bigger bearings, or I'd certainly
consider doing so.
Pretty nice wheels, nonetheless.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:17:43 +1100
From: Daniel_Builth-Snoad@wlgore.com
Subject: Re: LtWtRR re: Why it should be big and hollow
I've just been playing with a few figures regarding stiffness:weight. One
thing that hasn't been considered here is the shear strength of the axle.
With a 50% drop in weight comes a 50% drop in CSA and therefore shear
strength. The stiffness MM refers to is bending strength and not the whole
story. To counter this I'm 20kg heavier than half the jockeys I race
against and have never sheared an axle so there must be a decent factor of
safety for the smaller guys (feeling lucky punk?).
Whilst Michael wants to increase the stiffness of his Lav axle using a
large OD hollow unit I reckon the RS125 is stiff enough for my needs, thus
letting us save weight with no strength loss. Like MM there's not much meat
in my wheels (Marchesini) to put monster bearings in place so I went
looking for bearings that would fit the wheel but allow a larger dia shaft.
Replacing my 6202 with a 6003 keeps the same bearing OD, allows a 17mm
shaft, but drops the dynamic load rating from 8020 N to 6230 N. If you
don't mind changing bearings more often you can get the weight to 60% of
original without a loss in stiffness. This all assumes: weight related
directly to CSA (ie not allowing for collars), ID of current axle about 8mm
(the best guess from memory). I'll pull out some references tonight and
check some of the theory and look at the dimensions a little more closely.
Anyway, just continuing the train of thought.
Danny Builth-Snoad
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:02:58 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Re: MC-Chassis Why it should be big and hollow
> Before you decide to use that larger diameter to calculate your shear
> stresses, remember that two pieces of tubing pushed together can only
> take loads that are as high as the nornal force on the tube faces times
> the coeficient of friction. I would not count on that force being too
> high. As far as the bending goes, unless you can tighten the axle up
> enough to senter the parts together you are out of luck in this
> department as well. Interesting idea though.
>
> Cameron
Hello Cameron,
I don't think I mentioned earlier that I don't use a nut on the axle
- - it is simply clamped by the fork slider pinchbolt. This works just
fine, and saves another small bit of weight.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:00:25 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR re: Why it should be big and hollow
> I've just been playing with a few figures regarding stiffness:weight. One
> thing that hasn't been considered here is the shear strength of the axle.
> With a 50% drop in weight comes a 50% drop in CSA and therefore shear
> strength. The stiffness MM refers to is bending strength and not the whole
> story. To counter this I'm 20kg heavier than half the jockeys I race
> against and have never sheared an axle so there must be a decent factor of
> safety for the smaller guys (feeling lucky punk?).
> Danny Builth-Snoad
Hello Danny,
I have a sliding adjuster/spacer on one side that fits inside the fork
(and around the axle). Once I've tightened up the far side (with the
loose spacer) pinchbolt I can use a length of all-thread and a hollow
spacer (like a wristpin puller deal) to remove all the play before
tightening up the adjuster side pinchbolt. As long as the play is
eliminated and there is plenty of clamp available it seems fine. I've
not noticed any tendency for things to loosen in use. Craig mentioned
to me that removing the play is a must, but that with lots of surface
area the axle is held very firmly.
Of course, a 1" tube is very strong in torsion, which Roe et al
determined was the big factor in front ends.
I asked Craig about the shearing, and he says that while shearing is
pretty much dependent on the weight of material, he's only had one of
these axles shear in roadrace use - and yes, that was in a crash and
the bike was VERY second hand. He said that you might not want to use
this light of an axle on a dirt bike, but then most of the road race
jumps are a bit easier on the parts than the MX jumps.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 19:00:25 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR (Fwd) Watercooled 6-speed TA-125
I'm forwarding this to the list in case anyone is interested in it.
Sounds like some interesting stuff. My friend Craig says he
remembers the bike being raced in AFM races, and it was very fast and
very nicely built.
Michael
- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
To: email@eurospares.com
From: Bob_Kuykendall@BayNetworks.COM (Bob Kuykendall)
Subject: Watercooled 6-speed TA-125
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:03:44 -0700
Maybe you can help me.
I'm looking for a buyer for my late-1980s super-TA125 road machine. I
assembled this thing in 1987 or so with the help of Oakland tuner Bill
Smith, but never really got around to racing it hard. Now it's about ripe as
a Vintage-class machine, if you can keep the radiator under wraps.
Features:
* Nicasil-bore watercooled cylinders
* 6-speed close-ratio tranny (yes, really: none down and 6 up!)
* Low-time Bratton crank
* TZ700 front disk brake
* Matzinger-clone fairing
* Koni shocks
* EGT and water temp guages
Includes many spares, including several good unused pistons sets, one set
unused rings, and one each unmachined casting of wet cylinder and head.
Buyer also gets tons of trashed air-cooled cylinders (from previous
ownership), one factory-style TA-125 fairing (sort of thrashed) and zillions
of odd bits too numerous to bother with.
Let me know if you can help me find a home for this poor thing.
Best regards,
Bob Kuykendall
(408) 495-3489
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:13:03 +1100
From: Daniel_Builth-Snoad@wlgore.com
Subject: LtWtRR RS125 Piston differences
Hi Kids,
Just a quick one for the RS knowledgable:
There are at least 2 different pistons available for the RS, the 92 and a
later model, both are interchangable and one has a 610 as the last three
digits. I also understand one has a thicker ring than the other.
Are there any other differences? Which is the better unit to use? Any
thoughts at all?
Cheers
Danny Builth-Snoad
------------------------------
End of LtWtRR-digest V1 #6
**************************
LtWtRR-digest Thursday, April 10 1997 Volume 01 : Number 007
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:12:43 +1100
From: Daniel_Builth-Snoad@wlgore.com
Subject: Re: LtWtRR re: Why it should be big and hollow
Following through on this thread I pulled out my dusty engineering
references last night. The formula MM provided for moment of interia is for
polar m of i which from memory is more related to torque than bending.
'Marks standard handbook for mechanical engineers' provided a nice little
equation which gives the maximum bending force a hollow steel cylinder can
take. Rolling all the guff like length etc into a constant C it boils down
to F=C(AD-ad)=C2(D^^3-d^^3).
Sticking this into a spreadsheet reveals MM's new axle has a bending
strength of 314 (non standard units) cf 393 for the original 20mm solid. If
the ID of the hollow shaft were dropped from 21 to 19 the strength would
rise to 430 for a smallish weight penalty. It might be worth having a
closer look at the strength of the new front end, having a front axle fail
is pretty hard to get away with on the racetrack.
Danny Builth-Snoad
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:26:12 -0400
From: lhardy@national.aaa.com
Subject: Re: LtWtRR RS125 Piston differences
> From: Daniel_Builth-Snoad@wlgore.com
>
> There are at least 2 different pistons available for the RS, the 92 and a
> later model, both are interchangable and one has a 610 as the last three
> digits. I also understand one has a thicker ring than the other.
>
> Are there any other differences? Which is the better unit to use? Any
> thoughts at all?
AFAIK the only ones you can get from HRC are the '94 pistons.
These are apparently better than the '92-93 since they are
less likely to suffer stuck rings. Part # for the 94 piston
is 13100-NF4-900, the ring # is 13121-NX5-701.
Laura Hardy
lhardy@national.aaa.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:49:57 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson"
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: LtWtRR re: Why it should be big and hollow
On 9 Apr 97 at 10:12, Daniel_Builth-Snoad@wlgore.co wrote:
>
> Following through on this thread I pulled out my dusty engineering
> references last night. The formula MM provided for moment of interia is
> for polar m of i which from memory is more related to torque than
> bending. 'Marks standard handbook for mechanical engineers' provided a
> nice little equation which gives the maximum bending force a hollow steel
> cylinder can take. Rolling all the guff like length etc into a constant C
> it boils down to F=C(AD-ad)=C2(D^^3-d^^3).
Michael gave the formula for I as:
PI * (Diameter**4 )/4 or .049 (D**4) for solid
.049(D1**4 - d2**4) for tubular (D1 OD, d2 ID),
which is correct except that the denominator should have been 64;
PI * (D**4)/64.
Polar MoI ( J ) would be PI * (D**4)/32.
The formula for maximum bending force is useful (in fact, neccessary) for
stress analysis, but doesn't help in determining or comparing stiffness,
which is what most of us are primarily searching for (I think).
A bit of a digression here, to try and explain the difference between
strength and stiffness, for those who may be puzzled by the statements in
Michael's chassis building pages to the effect that good old cold-rolled
steel tube is a perfectly good material and that chrome-moly is not going
to help your frame work better.
Apologies in advance if this is too elementary for the list.
The frame member values of interest to chassis stiffness are:
Cross sectional area A,
Moment of inertia I, and
Young's modulus E.
(And of course the torsional equivalents J and G).
Area and Young's modulus (and some constants) combine to give the stiffness
of a tube in tension and compression. I and E (and other constants)
combine to give the stiffness of a tube in bending. A and I are based on
the geometry of the tube (or bar, or I-beam, or...). E is a material
property. If A or I don't change, the only improvement in stiffness is
through E. Now for the bad news: E doesn't change for most (essentially
all) alloys of a particular metal, so chrome-moly won't change the
stiffness (strength, yes; stiffness, no).
What this boils down to is if your chassis flexes, it will still flex with
chrome-moly. If it wobbles so badly that it permanently deforms
(unlikely!), then chrome-moly will help, but the thing will still wobble,
it just won't permanently deform so easily. Even worse, going to a thinner
wall chrome-moly (because it is stronger) will reduce A and I, making the
frame *less* stiff. The only improvement to stiffness must be from a
change to A and I (bigger or thicker tubes), or from a stiffer material,
unless you get clever. The cleverness may come from using a lighter
material in an arrangement which allows for huge I values: Twin spar
aluminum frames, for example. Aluminum brings other problems, though. The
improvement may be through a different frame design which changes the loads
on the members. Which brings us to space frames, which improve things by
loading the tubes in their stiffest direction: along the length.
> Sticking this into a spreadsheet reveals MM's new axle has a bending
> strength of 314 (non standard units) cf 393 for the original 20mm solid.
> If the ID of the hollow shaft were dropped from 21 to 19 the strength
> would rise to 430 for a smallish weight penalty. It might be worth having
> a closer look at the strength of the new front end, having a front axle
> fail is pretty hard to get away with on the racetrack.
This shows that it is possible to improve stiffness and reduce strength
simultaneously, since bending stress is proportional to (among other
things) the diameter of a tube (technically, the distance from the neutral
axis). So a large thin wall tube may be *stiffer* than a rod, but
larger diameter, and less *strong*. This need not be a problem, if it
is strong enough for the application, but there will be less of a margin of
safety. Note that the use of something like chrome-moly *would* help here,
since it is the strength which needs improving.
My favourite text on the subject is Beer and Johnston; Mechanics of
Materials, published by McGraw Hill. It covers all this and more, but is
pretty good in explanations for the technically inclined layman. As long
as you stick to straight tubes of simple geometry, most of the math is
straightforward.
Cheers,
Glenn
msgr@hookup.net
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:03:56 -0700
From: David Dold
Subject: LtWtRR 93 RS125 for sale
The god of 250s is shining upon me and an opportunity to step up to play
with the big boys has arisen and Id be stupid for not taking it, so my RS125
is for sale ... heres the skinny:
1993 RS125
Marchesini Wheels (wide)
Spare stock wheels with fresh rain slicks
Aftermarket fork caps making them fully adjustable
Fresh (0 races) top end including brand new 94 cylinder
Brand new Sharkskinz bodywork with cool 96 tail section that mounts to stock
mounting
Used HRC bodywork
Fresh reeds
Spare cylinder (needs replating), spare gaskets, gearing, ring, misc. little
things like bearings, etc.
Manuals
$3500 obo ... make an offer, its clean and seems to be pretty fast compared
to other 93/94s even with me on board
Dave
AFM, CCS No. 272
93 VFR400R, 93 RS125, 87 KX500, 65 J1
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
ddold@crl.com
------------------------------
End of LtWtRR-digest V1 #7
**************************
LtWtRR-digest Tuesday, April 15 1997 Volume 01 : Number 008
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:01:59 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR CMRRA
This is a fairly local-to-California question, but have any of you
raced with the CMRRA (Cal. Mini RR Assoc) in their "big wheel"
classes?
What are they like to race with, and what is it like racing your RS
etc on the small tracks they normally use?
I've been thinking for some time that I should build a killer Honda
S90 special (the plan is a Linto/Derbi 80 replica space frame) to
race with them (and ride on Sundays on the street), as it looks like
they have some classes that allow 4 strokes to run with a
displacement advantage vis a vis the two strokes.
Have I mentioned that I've also been doing some sketching/parts
accumlation for a 2 valve DOHC cylinder head for the S90? There are
just never enough projects.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:57:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Mark J. Andy"
Subject: LtWtRR Stuff is settling down
Howdy,
So I've gotten 9 hours of sleep and got my taxes done since coming back
from Talladega this weekend and have some lingering details I need to ask
about, etc.
First, does anyone know where Street & Comp gets its Neoprene seat foam?
This stuff is black foam 3/8" and 3/4" thick with an adhesive backing.
McMaster has 'Isothane Self-Stick Polyurethane Foam Sheeting' with a
density of 2 lbs/Cu ft. and 25% deflection @ 1psi that I was thinking of
trying... This is open cell foam. Problem is that I dunno what the specs
are on the stuff Street & Comp or HRC or whoever is using and I can't
find Neoprene foam in McMaster, MSC, or Grainger. The stuff from
McMaster is significantly cheaper than S&C's (as you'd expect) at ~$5/ft.
from 54" rolls, if I can use it. They also have a bunch of other foam
types, but that was the only one I saw with an adhesive backing. Also
would be interested if anyone knows where to get double-sided adhesive in
sheets.
Second, the foot controls I've made for the '94 & '95 RS's seem to be
working pretty well. I've currently got the peg and lever drawn up
w/specs and all and will be doing the hanger brackets sometime in the
next week or two. I'll be trying to launch an M&N Racing web site
sometime soon and will put the drawings and some
hints/instructions/suppliers there when that occurs. Basically if you
have access to a metal lathe and bandsaw, you can make a full set or two of
controls for <$50.
Also related to controls, I was thinking of switching from 2024 AL to
6061 for the next round of stuff I make... Without going into rigorus
analysis (since I don't have that ability), has anyone ever had any
problems with 6061 used for footpegs, foot levers, hanger brackets, or
clipons? The footpegs are basically tubes with ~.065" walls, the
foot levers are 1/4" sheet, the hanger brackets are 3/8" sheet, and the
clipons are 7/8" tube with 1/8" walls. My guess is that 6061 will be
fine for this stuff, and it costs about 1/2 to 1/8 as much as 2024 (and
also welds much better).
Oh, and still related to controls, I'm probably gonna be making some
extra footpegs, maybe some clipons, and maybe^2 some footpeg brackets and
bringing them to the track if anyone wants to buy some. Assuming
material costs aren't exhorbitant, footpegs will be $10 each. I'm currently
planning on making pegs that'll work with the stock RS controls, some TZ
pegs (work with stock), and some pegs that'll work with my version of the
RS controls (which will work with stock levers provided you remove the
bushing crap in the lever). If you might be intested in some of these,
lemme know and I'll try and make sure I've got what you need.
Mark
-------------------------------------------------------------
The 1997 M and N Racing Team
Team Owners: Laura Maynard-Nelson, Paul Hoyt Nelson
Riders: Paul Hoyt Nelson (WERA/CCS/NASB Expert #81)
Mark Andy (WERA Expert #3)
Tuner: Connie S. Brooks
Manager: Laura Maynard-Nelson
-------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of LtWtRR-digest V1 #8
**************************
LtWtRR-digest Wednesday, April 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 009
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:25:12 +0800
From: Matthew Carter
Subject: LtWtRR RS125 Adventures
Hi all,
Just had my first race weekend which was very interesting but also
frustrating. During my fourth race of the day the outer electrode of the
spark plug broke off and mashed the internals of my engine. Waaaaahh Its
not as bad as before but a pain in the arse all the same!!
Questions:
1.
Has this happened to anyone else before? The spark plug is fairly new and
it doesn't look like there is any signs of it hitting the top of the piston.
There looks to be heaps of room anyway!
2.
How do I go about remachining the head. Does anyone have any specs on
reshaping the head (squish band angle length etc)
3.
My cylinder is very slightly scuffed on the exhaust side. How bad is this?
I'm gonna run it with a new piston cos I can't afford to replate it!
Thanks,
Matt
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Carter mjcarter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au
Robotics Laboratory, Ph (09) 328 7740 (Hm)
Dept of Mechanical & Materials Engineering, (09) 380 3051 (Lab)
University of Western Australia
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOU WANT INTERNET INTERACTIVITY? http://telerobot.mech.uwa.edu.au/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:50:07 -0700
From: Brad.Glustoff@zool.AirTouch.COM
Subject: LtWtRR CMRRA / YSR50 / TZ80
Hi Michael, I race in the CMRRA. (Cal. Mini Road Race Assn).
I race a YSR50 and a '95 TZ125 with
a CR80 engine in it. I can answer most of you questions. Either e-mail
me, or call. This is the cheapest, most fun racing there is. You, or anyone
is welcome to try one of my bikes. Brad
Work (714) 798-4075
home (714) 589-0033
brad.glustoff@airtouch.com
cmrra1@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/CMRRA1/CMRRA.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:32:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Mark J. Andy"
Subject: LtWtRR '94 RS-125 maybe for sale
Howdy,
So I've been thinking about dumping the '94 and getting a newer 125 now
rather than next year... Major factor would be how much cash I could get
for my bike...
'94 RS 125, Chris Pyle's former bike, from Jack Brill, from Kevin Murray
Complete spares, including 2 sets of bodywork with repairable damage (new
stuff on bike), windscreen, wheels (front marvic, new rear techno), 2
complete sets of foot controls, complete motor spares including one
damaged but usable head (sucked a rock apparently), 1 new head ('HRC'
head on bike now), 1 re-nickaslyed (sp) cylinder, new coil, new cdi, new
flywheel, broken & probably repairable stator, and misc gaskets,
bearings, etc.
What's it worth?
Mark
-------------------------------------------------------------
The 1997 M and N Racing Team
Team Owners: Laura Maynard-Nelson, Paul Hoyt Nelson
Riders: Paul Hoyt Nelson (WERA/CCS/NASB Expert #81)
Mark Andy (WERA Expert #3)
Tuner: Connie S. Brooks
Manager: Laura Maynard-Nelson
-------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:51:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Todd Nordby
Subject: Re: LtWtRR RS125 Adventures
Matt blew up:
>Just had my first race weekend which was very interesting but also
>frustrating. During my fourth race of the day the outer electrode of the
>spark plug broke off and mashed the internals of my engine. Waaaaahh Its
>not as bad as before but a pain in the arse all the same!!
>
This may be a stupid question, but did you disassemble the
top end, maybe the ring broke and did all the damage, was
the ring still intact or in pieces? It maybe hard to tell
what happened 1st.
What plug were you using, the expensive one with the small
electrode, or the cheap "car looking" one with the large
electrode?
I would be surprised to see just that small electrode to a lot
of damage but it is certainly possible.
- --
Todd
nordby@euclid.northbrook.aieg.mot.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:01:14 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR Stuff is settling down
> trying... This is open cell foam. Problem is that I dunno what the specs
> are on the stuff Street & Comp or HRC or whoever is using and I can't
> find Neoprene foam in McMaster, MSC, or Grainger. The stuff from
> McMaster is significantly cheaper than S&C's (as you'd expect) at ~$5/ft.
> from 54" rolls, if I can use it. They also have a bunch of other foam
> types, but that was the only one I saw with an adhesive backing. Also
> would be interested if anyone knows where to get double-sided adhesive in
> sheets.
Hello Mark,
Try to buy closed cell foam - it won't soak up fluids so much, and
presents a smoother surface for you to sit on. Look in the Yellow
Pages under "Foam Rubber and Sponge", if you haven't already.
> Also related to controls, I was thinking of switching from 2024 AL to
> 6061 for the next round of stuff I make... Without going into rigorus
> analysis (since I don't have that ability), has anyone ever had any
> problems with 6061 used for footpegs, foot levers, hanger brackets, or
> clipons? The footpegs are basically tubes with ~.065" walls, the
> foot levers are 1/4" sheet, the hanger brackets are 3/8" sheet, and the
> clipons are 7/8" tube with 1/8" walls. My guess is that 6061 will be
> fine for this stuff, and it costs about 1/2 to 1/8 as much as 2024 (and
> also welds much better).
The footpegs and clip on tubes sound a bit light on the wall
thickness to me. You might want to play it safe and go a bit
thicker, as you won't enjoy it if you have a foot peg or handlebar
break off while you are riding. Don't forget that the AL fatigues.
I make steel clipons from .062" thick clamp tubes and .040" wall
handlebars, and they are light and strong. The steel is also stiffer
than the aluminum, and won't fatigue like aluminum. The 6061 vs 2024
shouldn't be a problem. I also make my footpegs from 3/4" steel tube
(.062" wall) welded over the head of a (I think) 10mm internal
wrenching cap screw. Easy to make, and cheap too.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:01:14 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR CMRRA / YSR50 / TZ80
> Hi Michael, I race in the CMRRA. (Cal. Mini Road Race Assn).
> I race a YSR50 and a '95 TZ125 with
> a CR80 engine in it. I can answer most of you questions. Either e-mail
> me, or call. This is the cheapest, most fun racing there is. You, or anyone
> is welcome to try one of my bikes. Brad
Hello Brad,
Al (CMRRA1@aol.com) has offered to send me a rule book, so I'll check
that out when it comes.
Thanks for the offers of info/test rides. The CR/TZ sounds
interesting. How about posting some info on it - how it performs,
weight, etc?
Of course, just what I need is yet another project bike, but I've had
the cafe racer trick-chassied S90 on the back burner for some time,
and CMRRA might be the thing to give the project some impetus.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:01:14 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR RS125 Adventures
> What plug were you using, the expensive one with the small
> electrode, or the cheap "car looking" one with the large
> electrode?
>
> I would be surprised to see just that small electrode to a lot
> of damage but it is certainly possible.
I've wondered for some time about these $30 spark plugs I read about
being used in the 2 stroke GP bikes. What's the deal? Do they
really make a difference, and if so what? I find it hard to believe
that the plug could make much difference (presuming a premium
"standard" plug is already being used.
Thanks for the info,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:13:07 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Vintage schedule at Laguna Seca
This information comes from the confirmation card I got from Team
Obsolete for this weekend's vintage exhibition races at the AMA
National at Laguna Seca:
Thursday: tech & registration 3-6PM
Friday: Gates open & tech at 7AM, practice 8AM and 12:40PM
Saturday: Gates open & tech at 7AM, practice 9AM, race 3:30PM
Sunday: Race at 10:10 AM, "Parade of Exotice Bikes Sunday Midday"
I plan to be at the track starting at 3PM on Thursday to help with
tech. I'll be riding a Ducati single, number 211, hopefully on both
Saturday and Sunday (I entered the Laverda in Saturday's race but it
isn't going to make it, so I've got to see about switching the entry
into a different class).
I've been told that all the vintage bikes will be pitted in one area.
Stop by and say hello if you get into the pits.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:56:57 +0800
From: Matthew Carter
Subject: Re: LtWtRR RS125 Adventures
>This may be a stupid question, but did you disassemble the
>top end, maybe the ring broke and did all the damage, was
>the ring still intact or in pieces? It maybe hard to tell
>what happened 1st.
No the ring is intact (but stuck)
>What plug were you using, the expensive one with the small
>electrode, or the cheap "car looking" one with the large
>electrode?
The cheapo (which isn't really that cheap) with the car type electrode.
>I would be surprised to see just that small electrode to a lot
>of damage but it is certainly possible.
I don't think the small type would damage at all. I was told by one of the
fast guys to buy the 'good' plugs. How much> "It costs me $120 a plug"
........ :- ====== = = = )
Yeah, right!!! I'll be spending that. I might look into buying a more
expensive plug with a small electrode though.
Matt
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Carter mjcarter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au
Robotics Laboratory, Ph (09) 328 7740 (Hm)
Dept of Mechanical & Materials Engineering, (09) 380 3051 (Lab)
University of Western Australia
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOU WANT INTERNET INTERACTIVITY? http://telerobot.mech.uwa.edu.au/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:58:33 +0800
From: Matthew Carter
Subject: Re: LtWtRR RS125 Adventures
>I've wondered for some time about these $30 spark plugs I read about
>being used in the 2 stroke GP bikes. What's the deal? Do they
>really make a difference, and if so what? I find it hard to believe
>that the plug could make much difference (presuming a premium
>"standard" plug is already being used.
My understanding of the situation is that the plug is made from precious
metals that will melt just before the rest of the engine will and therefore
save a lot of engine damage. I'd say the performance would be very similar.
Matt
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Carter mjcarter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au
Robotics Laboratory, Ph (09) 328 7740 (Hm)
Dept of Mechanical & Materials Engineering, (09) 380 3051 (Lab)
University of Western Australia
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOU WANT INTERNET INTERACTIVITY? http://telerobot.mech.uwa.edu.au/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:07:16 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR RS125 Adventures
> My understanding of the situation is that the plug is made from precious
> metals that will melt just before the rest of the engine will and therefore
> save a lot of engine damage. I'd say the performance would be very similar.
>
> Matt
Hello Matt,
This still sounds a bit unlikely to me. A possibility is that the
ignition isn't putting out enough power, and they were going with
small electrodes to make it easier to get a spark.
Did you ever see the picture of the desert racer from the late
60s/early 70s who had a vest with a good 20-30 little pockets on it,
each one filled with a spare spark plug?
Curious stuff.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:28:18 -0400
From: lhardy@national.aaa.com
Subject: Re: LtWtRR RS125 Adventures
> From: "Michael Moore"
>
> > What plug were you using, the expensive one with the small
> > electrode, or the cheap "car looking" one with the large
> > electrode?
> >
> > I would be surprised to see just that small electrode to a lot
> > of damage but it is certainly possible.
>
> I've wondered for some time about these $30 spark plugs I read about
> being used in the 2 stroke GP bikes. What's the deal? Do they
> really make a difference, and if so what? I find it hard to believe
> that the plug could make much difference (presuming a premium
> "standard" plug is already being used.
I've used both in my '93 125. I can't tell any difference in the
bike's performance (what gearing & revs it'll pull). For most of
last year, I ran the cheaper NGK B10EGV plug. The couple of
times my husband raced my bike, he commented that the digital
temp gauge reading was jumping all over the place; but I never
noticed that problem until Daytona this spring. I knew the
recommended plugs were resistor plugs, but couldn't find a
suitable resistor match in the more common plugs. Anyway, at
Daytona the inconsistent temp gauge bothered me too much so I got
a used good plug (given to my by James Siddall - thanks James!)
and the problem went away. James also said that running the
non-resistor plug over time could cause the cdi to fail. I've
gathered up a collection of good plugs and plan to run them from
now on.
In practice, the good plugs seem to be much more prone to
fouling. This may just be because of the heat range (the
cheapo plugs were a 10, the good plugs are a 10.5). Anyway,
it's made me go back to a lot of throttle blipping while
warming the bike up as opposed to the steady low throttle
I could use with the cheaper plugs. I may just need to play
with the pilot and needle to get them set.
Laura Hardy
lhardy@national.aaa.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:32:14 -0500
From: "Chen, Jeff"
Subject: LtWtRR Gearing my RS125 for Putnam Park?
Does anybody out there have any gearing suggestions for riding Putnam
Park on an RS125?
Thanks in advance.
- --
Jeff.
1989 Honda RS125
------------------------------
End of LtWtRR-digest V1 #9
**************************
LtWtRR-digest Friday, April 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 010
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:13:43 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: Re: LtWtRR RS125 Adventures
> In practice, the good plugs seem to be much more prone to
> fouling. This may just be because of the heat range (the
> cheapo plugs were a 10, the good plugs are a 10.5). Anyway,
> it's made me go back to a lot of throttle blipping while
> warming the bike up as opposed to the steady low throttle
> I could use with the cheaper plugs. I may just need to play
> with the pilot and needle to get them set.
>
> Laura Hardy
> lhardy@national.aaa.com
Hello Laura,
Thanks for the info. As long as the ignition supplies enough juice
to a plug it will fire, and a spark plug shouldn't be a "performance"
tuning item. Some plugs might last longer, have broader heat ranges,
etc, and I can see that this might be worth paying a bit more. The
expensive "racing" plugs would appear to be there for reasons other
than the ability to spark.
An NGK 10 seems quite cold, and likely to be prone to fouling,
especially in a premix engine. My four-stroke race bikes generally
seem to run pretty hot plugs (6 and 7s) without problems. Then
again, my 2 stroke riding days were 25 years ago, so I might be
behind the times on the technology there.
Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:42:40 -0400
From: lhardy@national.aaa.com
Subject: Re: LtWtRR RS125 Adventures
> From: "Michael Moore"
> Thanks for the info. As long as the ignition supplies enough juice
> to a plug it will fire, and a spark plug shouldn't be a "performance"
> tuning item.
From my packrat storage area, I found this info which was posted
by someone to the 2strokes list last year taken from an NGK brochure:
Resistor plugs are used for two reasons --
1. They cut down electrostatic interference.
2. They provide a sharper "edge" to the voltage spike, making for
a stronger, shorter spark. On high RPM motors, this is important.
Anyway, looking at it that way, I guess you could contend that
a resistor plug is a "performance" tuning item! It'd be interesting
to see dyno runs for the same bike, different plugs. I sure can't
tell from seat-of-the-pants feel.
> An NGK 10 seems quite cold, and likely to be prone to fouling,
> especially in a premix engine. My four-stroke race bikes generally
> seem to run pretty hot plugs (6 and 7s) without problems. Then
> again, my 2 stroke riding days were 25 years ago, so I might be
> behind the times on the technology there.
I had one plug fouling episode last year with a good plug at
my first race of the year. All I remember was that the air temp
was 32F (yeah, freezing!) and it was snowing at the time. My
husband was warming up my bike while I pulled on my helmet &
gloves. The plug fouled as he was warming it up and I missed
the warm-up lap as we frantically pushed it around trying to
get it to fire. Finally got it just about running as they went
to the 3 board, barely made it to the first corner and was
trying to tiptoe through when it suddenly cleared and revved
up - exciting on the wet, slippery surface with slicks on! I
had stuck in a B9ES to crank it up for the morning pratice, but
switched to the good plug once the bike was warm.
As we generally race in 90+F and 90%+ humidity conditions, I
haven't had a repeat epsiode!
Anyway, we used BR9EV(?) plugs in Dave's RZ350 racer for a year - also
with no fouling problems. His ZX7 superbike ran CR9EK (??? not sure
about the last couple of letters) double-tipped plugs.
Laura Hardy
lhardy@national.aaa.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:39:31 -0700
From: Jason Van Slyke
Subject: LtWtRR Seat Foam
You don't have to limit yourself to adhesive backed foam; buy any foam
and attach it with 3M spray on adhesive found at any Office Depot or
like shop.
Jason
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:18:40 +0800
From: Matthew Carter
Subject: LtWtRR RS125 Machining Heads
Hi,
I'm still wondering about getting my damaged heads machined. Do I just take
it to a shop and say cut out the rough bits. What is the important bit to
keep, The squish band (length & angle). How much does C.C. volume vary by
taking a mm of the head? Ie. will I need to re-cut the hemisphere to keep
C.C. volume up, or will it be safe as is.
What about alternate specs, Squish band and angle, C.C. volume. I've
noticed one of my heads as a really thin and steep squish band, the others
are shallower and wider. What do the markings on the heads mean?
Ta,
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:29:33 -0800
From: "Michael Moore"
Subject: LtWtRR Don't have problems until Monday
I'm heading off to Laguna Seca in an hour and won't be back until
late Sunday night.
If you have any list problems you'll need to suffer quietly until I
get back and can help you with them (probably Monday evening).
Until then,
Have fun
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American source of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:06:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Todd Nordby
Subject: Re: LtWtRR RS125 Machining Heads
>From: Matthew Carter
>
>I'm still wondering about getting my damaged heads machined. Do I just take
>it to a shop and say cut out the rough bits. What is the important bit to
>keep, The squish band (length & angle). How much does C.C. volume vary by
>taking a mm of the head? Ie. will I need to re-cut the hemisphere to keep
>C.C. volume up, or will it be safe as is.
>
>What about alternate specs, Squish band and angle, C.C. volume. I've
>noticed one of my heads as a really thin and steep squish band, the others
>are shallower and wider. What do the markings on the heads mean?
Well, I've been reading and trying to gather info about this but I haven't
actually tried or done any mods to my bike. Anyway my opinions:
The major things to keep straight would be the squish band clearance
and the head volume.
When you mill the head you need to recut the squish to achieve the
proper clearance so the piston doesn't hit the head (too small) or
lead to detonation (too large). RS125 squish clearances seem to be
from 0.65 to 0.95 mm.
You may also need to cut the bowl more to keep the head volume
large enough or you will increase the compression too much and
lose top end power at best or detonate and blow up at worst. The
HRC specs say set combustion chamber volume to 10.2 CC.
There are HRC specs for head shape, which I think are rather vague, or
rather I should say the "set combustion chamber volume to 10.2 CC"
statement in the power up guide is vague, as to how it is measured.
I looked at the specs for '92, '93 and '95 heads and calculated the
volumes to be like 8.9, 9.4 and 10.2 CC, but the guide says to set
them all to 10.2cc, huh?
Anyway, set the squish clearance and head volume and you should
be ok, maybe not optimum, but it shouldn't blow up.
- --
Todd
nordby@euclid.northbrook.aieg.mot.com
------------------------------
End of LtWtRR-digest V1 #10
***************************
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